![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 13 to 37 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on December 16, 2001, at 13:28:38
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by ChrisK on December 16, 2001, at 4:25:48
Chris --
I need specific names. I've already tried the outpatient clinic at Wake Forest (I'm in Winston-Salem, and my parents are professors at WFU), and frankly, they're in the stone ages! I'm not willing to see a random person without having any info about them first. I think my best hope is finding someone out of state (and I may just end up having to go back to Boston for this) who I can see for a consultation (i.e., just once) and then hoping that whoever I end up seeing here will pay attention to the consultant's recommendations. That's why the consultant's reputation is important.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on December 16, 2001, at 13:39:51
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by SLS on December 16, 2001, at 10:53:09
> Actually, I have seen more "nontraditional" and aggressive techniques come from the doctors of PB participants than I have been offered by some of the researchers I have seen.
You have a point. The researcher I had in mind, mainly, was of course Dr. Bodkin at McLean, with whom I was very impressed. He seems to know about every novel/unconventional treatment for depression, and he keeps up to date. (I also hit it off well with him for whatever reason, and he treated me very respectfully; these days, I'm feeling like even the minimal respect that I would expect from any person is something I can no longer take for granted!) I've generally felt like I was able to connect better to the researchers I've met than to the average clinician. However, these researchers have all been Harvard folks -- I'm finding that the "culture" at different academic medical centers can vary widely. The thing I *don't* like about a lot of non-researcher clinicians is that they're often so conservative, they don't want to try *anything* unconventional. Dr. Bodkin and other Harvard researchers I've met have been compassionate as well as knowledgeable -- they're willing to try whatever it takes to get you better.
Thanks for your recommendations. I'm leaning more and more towards seeing somebody at Columbia.
-elizabeth
Posted by Mair on December 16, 2001, at 15:21:21
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
> Elizabeth - I'm way out of my league talking about psychopharmacology, but I do know that the Sam-e proponent, Richard Brown, is at Columbia, and I think he specializes in treatment resistant depression. Obviously, his support of Sam-e indicates that he's willing to deviate from the mainstream. I wrote him once a few years ago; he was kind enough to call me on the phone to talk to me about my letter. I found him to be very accessible.
Mair
Posted by jay on December 16, 2001, at 17:54:36
In reply to Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 16, 2001, at 1:38:02
> www.truehope.com
>
> I have to wonder about a company who tests there product "after" they market it. That seems a little bass-ackwards from the way the science is supposed to be done. Where are the phase trials?
>
> "Oh, it's only vitamins." Whew, that's a relief, for a minute there I thought it was a medication, silly me.
>
> I have heard so many stories about these guys, I am not sure what to believe, anymore. The wording of a lot of the sentences in their J Clin Psychiatry article, make them sound like they are hiding something (even more so than some the usual drug company party lines that must be waded through and dissected).
>
> I would like to hear Stahl's take on this article; how'd it get past him? I don't get it?
>
> Also, did anyone else notice that the guy who wrote the editorial, supposedly being critical of the article, was thanked by the research group for his, "support and consultation".
>
> Something that I am also curious about (but I usually am with any journal artical) is the time lag between first submission of the article to the journal, it's initial rejection, and finally it's acceptance. I would really like to know what was wrong with that first submission. Was it too many typos; was it unbackable statements; what?
>
> I hope these guys (ie. Synergy) have deep pockets. The way that they are bringing there product out smells of lawsuit (the kind that professional, falling-off-a-trolley-experts bring against a company). If one person starts this vitamin, has a manic episode, and does harm to themselves (or others), what sort of defense does the company have? This scenario could be compounded by the person also stopping his/her meds for their bipolar disorder. If there is a waiver that needs to be signed to use this product, I would be extremely leery about signing it.
>
> - Cam (who has a very uneasy feeling about this whole thing, but has no proof to refute their claims, other than common sense, and a few observations).
Cam:I quite agree with you, and the 'science' surrounding vitamin/mineral and herbal supplements seems rather shaky. There is often talk of some of these therapies being successful in Europe, but many of the European studies have many holes in them, in particular replication of results. I am very suspicious when a company spends more money on marketing than it does on research.
I also don't quite understand the mechanisms of action these vitamin combos claim to work by. In fact, it's the lack of explanation that really makes me wonder. I do understand how a couple of supplements have been shown to possibly work well, one of them being the fatty-acid and fish oil supplements, and even in many of those studies, people where still on medications. For www.truehope.com, they talk about people completely getting off all medications. Dangerous, indeed.
Also, I was reading through how they talk about their users feeling as the 'wean' on to this supplement. Very scary, actually, and again dangerous, as they mention that there is a long period of "adjustment...having raw feelings exposed..". They also suggest that medication "numbs" peoples feelings, and there is some kind of ultimate salvation in "unnumbing", which seems to make as much sense talking somebody with pneumonia, and throwing them into icy waters naked. (Or inadequately dressed.)
I would say there is not only a potential for exposure to unnecessary extreme pain, there is a massive risk of suicide.
Like many, I went the route of mega-dose vitamin and herbs for a year or so *without* medication, and yes I lived to tell about it. That period in my life dragged me down moreso than any other point in my life, and it hindered in me experimenting and finding the psych medications that have helped me get my life back together.
I think you are quite right when you suggest they have some good money ready for lawsuits. Maybe they should make friends with Thomas Szaz's lawyer!
Jay
Posted by IsoM on December 17, 2001, at 0:45:05
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Cam W., posted by jay on December 16, 2001, at 17:54:36
I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement. What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
"These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."They're very selective in who they chose to be included in their study. In questions about people with multiple food allergies, they write:
"In general, E.M. Power+TM MAY not affect those who suffer from allergies. (I capitalised the may - how ambiguous can they get?).A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
Anyway, here's the list of ingredients: per 8 Capsules
Vitamin A (retinyl palmitate) 2,400 IU
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) 250 mg
Vitamin D (cholecalciferol) 400 IU
Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 100 IU
Vitamin B1 (thiamine mononitrate) 5 mg
Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 5.5 mg
Vitamin B3 (niacinamide) 25 mg
Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) 7 mg
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) 250 mcg
Vitamin H (biotin) 25 mcg
Vitamin B5 (d-calcium pantothenate) 6 mg
Calcium (calcium amino acid chelate) 550 mg
Iron (iron amino chelate) 6 mg
Phosphorous (phospherous complex) 350 mg
Iodine (from kelp) 75 mcg
Magnesium (magnesium amino acid chelate) 250 mg
Zinc (zinc amino acid chelate) 20 mg
Selenium (selenium amino acid chelate) 100 mcg
Copper (copper amino acid chelate) 3 mg
Manganese (manganese amino acid chelate) 4 mg
Chromium (chromium amino acid chelate) 250 mcg
Molybdenum (molybdenum amino acid chelate) 66 mcg
Potassium (potassium complex) 100 mgAlso:
dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, boron, vanadium, nickelOther ingredients: gelatin, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose, silicon dioxide
Posted by Bill L on December 17, 2001, at 9:46:09
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
I would look at Duke's (or UNC's) hospital web site and go to the page that shows the Department of Psychiatry's doctors. Usually these sites have a blurb on each doctor and you can see who the senior doctors or department heads are. Then you can make an appointment with one of those doctors.
I think that the advice from a top Duke doc would be as good as it gets. But if you really want to go out of state, and you want to go the orthomolecular route, you could call Dr. Robert Hedaya who is a clinician and a psychiatry professor at Georgetown University. . He has a website. You can start with http://www.wholepsych.com/HedayaBio.html and then go to his home page from there. I read his book a few years a go and he specializes in hard to treat cases. BUT, if you get the full battery of tests on your blood, saliva, hair, etc. it costs a few thousand dollars for the tests including the consultations.
According to his book, he usually does NOT replace traditional prescription antidepressants. His treatment only helps to augment your treatment.
> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>
> Does anyone know of any such people? I'm currently in NC and would be willing to travel within the state; I could also see someone in NYC or DC without much difficulty since I have relatives in both places.
>
> This would be a one-time thing; the idea is to get some recommendations from someone who's well-known and well-respected to help me convince whatever doctor around here I end up seeing to try stuff that they wouldn't be willing to try otherwise.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Annie Z. on December 17, 2001, at 12:52:36
In reply to nutritional supplements » Annie Z., posted by Elizabeth on December 16, 2001, at 0:09:01
I agree with you. I, too, would not take just a food supplement without knowing what's in it. The information is, in fact, on their web site. Here is the web page:
http://www.truehope.com/misc%20files/ingredients_list.htm
What is missing on their web site, however, is an order page. (At least it was missing, a year ago when I decided I might order it.) You need to contact them by e-mail to ask about ordering their supplement. When you contact them, they will send you a name of an assistant to call. The assistant will answer any questions you might have. She or he has taken the supplement himself or herself, in fact. If you decide to take the product, the assistant will call you every week to help make the transition to taking the supplement easier. Also, let me know if I can answer any questions you may have. My e-mail address is [email protected].
Here is a copy of that web page:
NUTRIENT UNITS AMOUNT
Vitamin A I.U. 3333
Vita B1 Mg. 5
Vita B2 Mg. 5.5
Vita B3 - Niacin Mg. 25
Vita B6 Mg. 7
Vita B12 Mcg. 250
Vitamin C Mg. 250
Vitamin D3 I.U. 400
Vita E I.U. 100
Vita B5 Mg. 6
Folate Mcg. 400
Biotin Mcg. 25
Calcium Mg. 550
Phosphorous Mg. 350
Magnesium Mg. 250
Copper Mg. 3
Iodine Mg. 0.075
Potassium Mg. 100
Molybdenum Mg. 0.06655
Zinc Mg. 20
Chromium Mg. 0.24995
Iron Mg. 6
Manganese Mg. 4
Selenium Mg. 0.09995
Silicon Mg. 10
PROPRIETARY CNS BLEND
Nickel
Vanadium
Boron
Germanium
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Bioflavenoids
Grape Seed Extract
Inositol
Ginko Biloba
Glutamine
CholineI wish they would give amounts of the supplements under “proprietary CNS blend.” I have called and asked them about the amounts of the proprietary substances. They will give you the amount of any one of these substances, if you have a specific need to know. They did give me the amounts of phenylalanine and ginko biloba once (which I have lost and forgotten).
Posted by stjames on December 17, 2001, at 13:37:34
In reply to Re:nutritional supplements » Elizabeth, posted by Annie Z. on December 17, 2001, at 12:52:36
> NUTRIENT UNITS AMOUNT
> Vitamin A I.U. 3333
> Vita B1 Mg. 5
> Vita B2 Mg. 5.5
> Vita B3 - Niacin Mg. 25
> Vita B6 Mg. 7
> Vita B12 Mcg. 250
> Vitamin C Mg. 250
> Vitamin D3 I.U. 400
> Vita E I.U. 100
> Vita B5 Mg. 6
> Folate Mcg. 400
> Biotin Mcg. 25
> Calcium Mg. 550
> Phosphorous Mg. 350
> Magnesium Mg. 250
> Copper Mg. 3
> Iodine Mg. 0.075
> Potassium Mg. 100
> Molybdenum Mg. 0.06655
> Zinc Mg. 20
> Chromium Mg. 0.24995
> Iron Mg. 6
> Manganese Mg. 4
> Selenium Mg. 0.09995
> Silicon Mg. 10
>
> PROPRIETARY CNS BLEND
>
> Nickel
> Vanadium
> Boron
> Germanium
> Methionine
> Phenylalanine
> Bioflavenoids
> Grape Seed Extract
> Inositol
> Ginko Biloba
> Glutamine
> Choline
>
We have here a vitamin pill, one that any could come up with at a health food store, for far far less than what true hope is charging.
Posted by Chloe on December 17, 2001, at 20:20:28
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » SLS, posted by Elizabeth on December 16, 2001, at 13:39:51
Elizabeth,
Could you tell me if you know anything about a pdoc Srini Pillay at Mclean. He was one of three pdocs I was refered to at Mclean. The other two were Brad Reich and Micheal Murphy. The last two have not returned my calls. This Pillay is giving me an appointment on Wed.
But I feel strange about the whole thing. He says he can not accept insurance at the moment, he just changed job discriptions or something. He is charging $250 for a 45 min consultation. This is a quarter of a thousands dollars! It doesn't seem right to pay this amount and I will only be able to see him once, because there is no way I could pay out of pocket more than once. And I don't think one consult is going to be enough to get my mood dysregulation, depression and BPD straightened out.I would be so damned easy to treat if I could take AP's (but I have TD issues) or I could handle mood stabilizers. But I am having terrible skin reactions. So without those two classes of meds, what's a consult going to do anyway?? But I am so desperate to see someone, I am rapid cycling, badly.
Anyway, have you heard of this guy? Does this seem right to you? I know you haven't lived here in a while. But I thought i would ask.
Good luck with your search
Chloe> > Actually, I have seen more "nontraditional" and aggressive techniques come from the doctors of PB participants than I have been offered by some of the researchers I have seen.
>
> You have a point. The researcher I had in mind, mainly, was of course Dr. Bodkin at McLean, with whom I was very impressed. He seems to know about every novel/unconventional treatment for depression, and he keeps up to date. (I also hit it off well with him for whatever reason, and he treated me very respectfully; these days, I'm feeling like even the minimal respect that I would expect from any person is something I can no longer take for granted!) I've generally felt like I was able to connect better to the researchers I've met than to the average clinician. However, these researchers have all been Harvard folks -- I'm finding that the "culture" at different academic medical centers can vary widely. The thing I *don't* like about a lot of non-researcher clinicians is that they're often so conservative, they don't want to try *anything* unconventional. Dr. Bodkin and other Harvard researchers I've met have been compassionate as well as knowledgeable -- they're willing to try whatever it takes to get you better.
>
> Thanks for your recommendations. I'm leaning more and more towards seeing somebody at Columbia.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on December 17, 2001, at 23:47:23
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation -Mclean » Elizabeth, posted by Chloe on December 17, 2001, at 20:20:28
Chloe,
I don't know any of those people. But John Gunderson, who is a specialist in BPD, is at McLean, and I imagine he would be able to see you for a consultation or refer you to someone who'd be good to see if what you're interested in specifically is psychopharm issues relating to BPD (I don't think he's very psychopharm-oriented himself).
As for the cost, psych consults are expensive. I would expect to pay about the same at Columbia or Chicago.
So, you can't tolerate *any* mood stabilizers? There are so many of them, that's surprising. Which ones have you tried?
-elizabeth
Posted by Chloe on December 18, 2001, at 19:07:15
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation -Mclean » Chloe, posted by Elizabeth on December 17, 2001, at 23:47:23
> > I don't know any of those people. But John Gunderson, who is a specialist in BPD, is at McLean, and I imagine he would be able to see you for a consultation or refer you to someone who'd be good to see if what you're interested in specifically is psychopharm issues relating to BPD (I don't think he's very psychopharm-oriented himself).
Elizabeth,
I am all too familar with the illustrious Dr. Gunderson. And no, he is not med oriented. His treatment approach is to see how enraged he can get a patient. An out of control angry patient is progress to him. Unfortunately, I know first hand. He was my evaluator at a treatment conference when I was a patient at Mclean when it was in it's hayday many many years ago. He was extremely rude, unkind and not a patient advocate. It's amazing that he is working with BPD's.Anyway, Mclean is just a shell of what it was once was. The rolling hills and gorgeous brick buildings on the campus are mostly over grown and vacant. My unit is long closed and boarded up. Most buildings are converted to halfway and quarterway houses. No one has insurance to pay for long term impatient care anymore...Including me, anymore! I digress. I have no ties to Mclean anymore. So I am just getting referals from my therapist who is just making cold inquiries.
>
> > As for the cost, psych consults are expensive. I would expect to pay about the same at Columbia or Chicago.I canceled my appointment for tomorrow. I can't pay $250 dollars for one session. Since I know even the smartest guy could put back on track after just one session. I have never beeen a quick fix. I need someone who can take insurance.
>
> > So, you can't tolerate *any* mood stabilizers? There are so many of them, that's surprising. Which ones have you tried?I am very med sensitive. I only need small doses of things, since I am a small person, about #105.
I am tolerating a small amount of neurontin ok. But if I go above 400 mgs, I get increased scalp pain which is very uncomfortable. BUT this amount is doing nothing to help with my cylcing!
Tegretol (AC)-heartburn, constipation, bad taste, headache, unsteadiness, fluish, blah, unhappy
Trileptal (AC)-dry painful, burning skin/scalp, photosensitivity reaction, interrupted sleep
Topomax (AC)-eczema, painful skin and hair, extreme anxiety and angst
Lamictal (AC)-headache, insomnia, edginess, activation, actinic rash
Neurontin (AC)-pleasant tiredness, transient heartburn, mild dry skin, scalp pain over 400 mgs.
Depakote (AC)-hair loss, blah feeling, wierd dreams-This one is probably the most benign of the group, except for the hair thing of course :(
Lithium- great AD and stablization response. But, I get an INTENSE burning scalp and dry hair aftere a few weeks. The pain becomes so sharp it hurts to lie on a pillow. Even at just 300 mgs.
This is probably more information than you wanted! But I am very revved at the moment. Oh, and does Klonopin have any mood stab. qualities? I have never tried that. my pdoc is a real adovocate of valium for some reason...I take about 10 mgs a day. I wonder if K would be more stabilizing???
Thanks for listening. Any thoughts?
Chloe
Posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
In reply to Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 16, 2001, at 1:38:02
Re: truehope
I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
- Cam
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:17:42
In reply to Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 16, 2001, at 1:38:02
>I have to wonder about a company who tests there product "after" they market it. That seems a little bass-ackwards from the way the science is supposed to be done. Where are the phase trials?There are countless studies being conducted on prescription drugs and products after they have been marketed, also. Furthermore, many prescription drugs have not had phase trials done on them either; for example, all of the products that were on the market before the phase trials were required – aspirin, for instance. Also, I believe that generic drugs, which are not exactly the same as the original, do not have phase trials done on them.
As I am sure you are aware, the supplement companies do not do phase trials of their supplements, before or after they put them on the market, because of the hundreds of millions of dollars it takes to fund these trials. Supplement companies do look at the usually abundant existing evidence for the effectiveness and non-toxicity of their products, as well as the risks that these products may pose. That’s why many supplement companies offer some excellent products that greatly ease people’s pain and suffering, and that greatly extend and enhance peoples’ lives. However, there is no question that supplement companies product can also be ineffective, as well as harmful or deadly products to some.
Prescription drug company’s medications, also, offer excellent products that have eased and extended the lives of millions. However, prescription medication has also caused great harm and countless deaths in this country. Several years ago, the American Medical Association published in their Journal of the American Medical Association, a study, the largest and most complete of its kind, which shows that more than 2 million Americans become seriously ill every year because of toxic reactions to correctly prescribed medicines taken properly, and 106,000 die from those reactions. That surprisingly high number makes prescription drug side effects at least the sixth, and perhaps even the fourth, most common cause of death in this country.
Lastly, many doctors and health professionals offer advice and services which helpful and life saving -- or ineffective, harmful and deadly. Physician and health-care mistakes are one of the major causes of death in this country -- ranks up there with the most common causes of peoples’ death, also.
I see the supplement industry in the same way I see the rest of the health industry: it can be good or bad, effective or ineffective, dangerous or benign. I wholeheartedly believe that a health consumer should closely examine any health service or product he chooses. After all, you are (usually) the only one that will suffer or die, if you make the wrong choices.
>"Oh, it's only vitamins." Whew, that's a relief, for a minute there I thought it was a medication, silly me.
I, for one, never said, “It’s only vitamins.” As I mentioned above, I happen to believe that vitamins or supplements can be as benign or dangerous as any drug. I suggest that people do research on the supplement company and on the supplements’ ingredients, and talk to their doctor before using this product.
>I have heard so many stories about these guys, I am not sure what to believe, anymore. The wording of a lot of the sentences in their J Clin Psychiatry article, make them sound like they are hiding something (even more so than some the usual drug company party lines that must be waded through and dissected).
You don’t support your contention that “they are hiding something” at all. You give no examples. It’s just a feeling (prejudice) that you have with the limited knowledge of your subject.
> I would like to hear Stahl's take on this article; how'd it get past him? I don't get it?
I don’t know what are you talking about here.
>Also, did anyone else notice that the guy who wrote the editorial, supposedly being critical of the article, was thanked by the research group for his, "support and consultation".
Doesn’t sound suspicious to me at all. Just sounds like the research group is open minded. I would thank anyone for his or her “support and consultation” who offered legitimate, thoughtful criticism of me or my work. Afterall, dealing with critiicsm is a major way people may improve.
>Something that I am also curious about (but I usually am with any journal artical) is the time lag between first submission of the article to the journal, it's initial rejection, and finally it's acceptance. I would really like to know what was wrong with that first submission. Was it too many typos; was it unbackable statements; what?
You provide no evidence at all for any lag time. Where are your dates? Where are your sources? Also, shouldn’t you at least model the behavior of which you accuse others? Your whole post consists of unbackable statements, and yet you are complaining about unbackable statements that may or may not have been in the first draft of an article that was never published. You spelled the word “article” wrong in the above paragraph, and you who used the word there for their at least twice in your post, just to name a few of your writing errors; and then you complain about typos in an unpublished first draft for which there is no evidence of even existing!
Finally, even if you did have evidence of a lag time, you haven’t convinced me that a lag time means there is something wrong with the final quality of the article.
>I hope these guys (ie. Synergy) have deep pockets. The way that they are bringing there product out smells of lawsuit (the kind that professional, falling-off-a-trolley-experts bring against a company). If one person starts this vitamin, has a manic episode, and does harm to themselves (or others), what sort of defense does the company have? This scenario could be compounded by the person also stopping his/her meds for their bipolar disorder. If there is a waiver that needs to be signed to use this product, I would be extremely leery about signing it.
Well, I hope that the prescription drug companies have deep pockets, too, (and they do), because it happens all the time that someone switches psychiatric medication, has a manic episode, and does harm to himself or others.
For your infomation, a signed waiver is not required to use the product. Certainly, there are very real risks involved in using this product, as there are in using many drugs or supplements. This non-profit organization cautions you about the risks and tries to minimize them.. The organization gives you pamphlet of a lot of important information, which you should share with your doctor, before you take the product. Also, assistants from the organization call you every week to offer you support and to answer your questions. You may even call these assistants yourself at any time.
>--Cam (who has a very uneasy feeling about this whole thing, but has no proof to refute their claims, other than common sense, and a few observations).
I certainly agree with you that you have no proof to refute their claims. However, I don’t see common sense operating here. By writing a post like this that contains no evidence to support any of your contentions, you are just spewing unexamined propaganda. You are doing a large disservice to the readers of this thread. You are modeling a behavior that is very inappropriate of a health professional, and you are leading people away from a supplement that could potentially make the quality of their life a great deal better, using nothing but emotion, prejudice, and unproved assertions.
--Annie Z.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:25:43
In reply to Double Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
> Re: truehope
>
> I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
>
> http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
>
> Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
>
> - CamI sure the same or worse can be said about the drug companies and their doctors. Does this prove that the supplement doesn't work for a lot of people? I don't think so.
Posted by Cam W. on December 19, 2001, at 8:06:00
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm...., posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 7:25:43
> > Re: truehope
> >
> > I was surfing some of my bookmarked sites out of sheer boredom and came across this. I thought that it was rather interesting:
> >
> > http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Synergy/index.html
> >
> > Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
> >
> > - Cam
>
> I sure the same or worse can be said about the drug companies and their doctors. Does this prove that the supplement doesn't work for a lot of people? I don't think so.
Annie .......and does it prove that it does works? I don't think so. It is not for me to refute claims. To quote Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." All I ask for is some "possible" or "potentially valid" mechanism of action for how this drug combination works.Doesn't it TERRIFY you, that if some UNPROVEN combination of CHEMICALS (and vitamins and minerals are chemicals) TO CHILDREN, when it has such a PROFOUND ACTION ON MOOD (similar to, or better than, the most potent mood stabilizers - which are inherently toxic), when NO one has any IDEA OF HOW IT WORKS? Would you give your child an new combination of say, Neurontin + lithium + Zyprexa + Laetril, because someone said that it would CURE them? I don't think so.
BTW, I can produce at least four people who paid hundreds of dollars a month for a couple of bucks worth of vitamins and minerals to some group who claims to be doing this "non-profit". Also, none of these four people was seemingly helped by the medication, and although none came off of their regular medication, one still had a manic episode.
You ask for proof, when it is you who should be providing the proof. THAT is how science works.
Sanely Yours - Cam
Posted by Mitch on December 19, 2001, at 9:40:03
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm.... » Annie Z., posted by Cam W. on December 19, 2001, at 8:06:00
> BTW, I can produce at least four people who paid hundreds of dollars a month for a couple of bucks worth of vitamins and minerals to some group who claims to be doing this "non-profit". Also, none of these four people was seemingly helped by the medication, and although none came off of their regular medication, one still had a manic episode.
I knew someone (my brother-in-law's father) who is confirmed Bipolar I (now!) who put his family through all sorts of misery (being undiagnosed/untreated). Well, his wife believed in astrology and thought he just had personality changes and paid astrologer's to attempt to forecast when he would "switch". (I am recalling all of this when I was a teenager). They started to get some clues that it was maybe a "mood" problem brought on by a nutritional deficit of sorts. They sought out a nutritional specialist and paid him a LOT of money to come to the conclusion that he needed "nutritional lithium"! Well, there was just a tiny amount of lithium in the tablets he was taking and needless to say, he continued to "switch personalities". I told them about 20 years ago he needed to see a shrink. They finally saw one about 15 years ago (when he lied to get loans and they almost got busted by the feds and went bankrupt)-they put him on 900mg/day of lithium and his personality "switches" magically disappeared. The doctor asked him if he wanted to reduce the lithium afer he had been on it for several months and he didn't want to! HMMMM.Mitch
Posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>
> Does anyone know of any such people? I'm currently in NC and would be willing to travel within the state; I could also see someone in NYC or DC without much difficulty since I have relatives in both places.
>
> This would be a one-time thing; the idea is to get some recommendations from someone who's well-known and well-respected to help me convince whatever doctor around here I end up seeing to try stuff that they wouldn't be willing to try otherwise.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth, as you already know you are located in a cesspool area as far as psychiatry goes. However there are a few decent options available to you in your area. There is a good psychopharmacologist right in your hometown of Winston Salem by the name of James D. Mattox. He has a reputation as an excellent and aggressive psychopharmacologist. He referred one of his patients to NIMH a year or so back...pretty impressive for a psychiatrist to do that. He is a psychiatrist at "New Directions Treatment Center" in Winston Salem. He is probably your best bet in the Triad area as far as aggressive and creative psychopharmacology goes.As far as Duke goes, Ive used Duke psychiatry and quite honestly, Duke is highly overrated. Duke psychiatry is a stodgy and very conservative place. There are a few good doctors there, but many of them are very stodgy and insolent. The best psychopharmacology guy there is someone named John Beyer, Dr. Beyer is head of the Duke mood disorders clinic. He is an excellent psychopharmacologist and also a nice guy. Another guy at Duke who Ive heard is good is someone named Gaddhi. He is a research oriented psychiatrist who used to work at NIMH with Dr. Mark George. However Gaddhi is focused mostly on research and doesnt take many patients. However you never know you might be able to get in with him if you called him directly. Dont try to hook up with Gaddhi thru the TRIAGE nurse at Duke, call Gaddhi's office yourself. You might click with him as he is research oriented.
One person at Duke I would recommend you not using is Susan Van Meter. She is head of the Duke mood disorders clinic. She doesnt exactly have the best personality in the world, I dont know how she ever got that position at Duke to begin with. I dont recommend her as she doesnt exactly have the best personality in the world. I found her to be very impersonal and kind of remote...cold acting.
Probably the best thing about Duke psychiatry is the Duke ECT unit run by Dr. Richard Weiner, its an excellent ECT unit if you are considering having that. Duke does have an excellent ECT unit, I will give Duke that. In fact thats probably the best thing about the Duke psychiatry program is its ECT program...its good.
Probably the best research oriented psychiatry outfit in the Carolinas is down at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. There are some outstanding research psychiatrists at MUSC. I found MUSC to be very much superior to Duke psychiatry. Dr. Mark George is there and he does a lot of really cool, unique neuropsychiatry research that is as good as any you'd find up in Boston or NYC. There is also a guy at MUSC named Zihad Nahas, he is George's assistant and Nahas is not a bad psychopharmacologist. Nahas has a good personality, he is friendly and knows his psychopharmacology. Nahas is openminded. James Ballenger was head of MUSC psychiatry until recently, he left I dont know where he went.
Since much of the research at MUSC is Neuropsychiatry related, it might be a good place to go since you have been diagnosed with epilepsy recently. Perhaps Dr. George and the like at MUSC could tie things together with your seizure problems and your depression.
Good luck,
Old School
Posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:08:10
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55
Correction: John Beyer at DUMC is head of the Duke Anxiety disorders clinic, not the Duke mood disorders clinic. Beyer is an excellent psychopharmacologist.
Old School
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15
In reply to Double Hmmmm...., posted by Cam W. on December 18, 2001, at 23:37:25
> Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
>
> - CamA fool and his money are easily parted.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts, posted by IsoM on December 17, 2001, at 0:45:05
> I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.
Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.
What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?
> I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.
> A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.
Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....vitamin chemical use - some facts » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 11:48:27
Annie, I know there are extras added to the vitamin/mineral combination - I just wonder how much is added. It would be good if they stated the amounts too. I've probably given you the impression that I'm against supplementing your diet with other nutrients. I'm definitely not! I used to manage a health food store for a number of years before it changed hands, plus have a good background in biology & some chemistry from university courses & a lot of science journal reading.
In working in the health food environment, I learned how much hype there sometimes is. It's a mult-billion dollar industry itself & wouldn't flourish if hype & advertising wasn't done. Some of the information being presented is factual about health foods & supplements but much is "hearsay". Many individuals presenting the information are not properly trained in nutrition (standard or otherwise) or biochemsitry & tend to rely on a lot of New Age fluff. It's exactly because of all this fluff, that many sensible people are scared away from taking the good information seriously.
I honestly believe that while many psychotropic medications may get the brain's chemistry working again (I compare it to a defibullator for the heart - only an illustration, not how drugs actually work), something more is needed to keep the brain working properly.
Without the proper nutrients, our body cannot optimumly make the precursors & neurotransmitters needed for healthy brain activity. Now that I'm older, I don't have the mega-appetite that I used to when young & KNOW that I can't possibly get all the nutrients I need through my diet only. I supplement. But I prefer rather than all-in-one combination to buy the supplements individually & balance them myself. I won't use gingo biloba as I don't want my blood to clot less. Whenever I've been checked in the hospital, my blood's always been at the 100% oxygenated level besides. I've eaten carefully & well & taken supplements for over 30 years & the benefits show. I don't get ill - no colds or such, but despite all this, I HAVE needed medication for depression - it has a strong hereditary streak in my family & I had a very stressful marriage with an alcoholic husband.
It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.
****************************************************************************************************
> > I did some checking about their supplement & found it's a multi-vitamin & mineral supplement.
>
> Actually the supplement contain more than multi-vitamins and minerals. The supplement contains dl-phenylalanine, glutamine, citrus bioflavonoids, grape seed, choline, inositol, ginkgo biloba, methionine, organic germanium, as well.
>
> What I'd like to know is why "their" supplement will make someone so much better but the competitor's supplement doesn't? Just a bunch of hype.
>
> How and where are they hyping their product, saying it is better than the competitors?
>
> > I also like the little disclaimer that's put on at the end:
> > "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."
>
> This statement is required by the FDA to be put on all nutritional supplements. The last sentence of the statement doesn’t seem to make sense, since the supplement company claims that their supplement will help cure mental illness throughout their website. Sounds to me like the FDA is trying to abridge the supplement companies’ right to free speech.
>
> > A person using this supplements supposed to take 16 tablets a day at a cost of $68.98 a bottle! And it doesn't even let you know how many tablets in a bottle. Cheap? I hardly think so.
>
> For about $68.98 you get 448 supplements. If you take 16 pills per day, that would last you about a month. I take 32 pills per day, costing me about $140 per month. However, the cost for the amount of medications which I gave up, and which didn’t do nearly as much for me as the supplement, is over $200.
Posted by susan C on December 19, 2001, at 13:53:24
In reply to Re: Double Hmmmm...., posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 10:18:15
> > Anyone got any comments? James, I'd like your opinion (seems like someone is doing their homework).
> >
> > - Cam
>
> A fool and his money are easily parted.A sucker is born every minute
mouse on a ferris wheel
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51
In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination. This company is making a lot of money (yes, I know drug companies are raking it in too but they also have to fund their own research - True Hope doesn't) & they're making *overblown* statements about the benefits. THAT'S what bothers me so much - not that supplementing your diet with extra nutrients is wrong. I think it's a very good idea for everyone.
James here.....
Yes ! I am not saying it is foolish to supplement, it is just foolish to pay excessive
prices for common nutrients.james
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37
In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 14:11:51
> It's not that True Hope's supplements are bad (except if I remember right, their potassium is quite low) or that psych meds don't cost lots, it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
Where is your evidence for your accusations that you make above?Here is some evidence that seems to prove you wrong:
True Hope’s Supplement
68.98 per bottle divided by 448 supplements = 6.5 cents per tablet
Life Extension Mix
$89 divided by 519 supplements = 17 cents per tablet
GNC Multi Ultra Without Iron, Timed Release Tablets
$24.99 divided by 90 = 26 cents per tablet
Geritol: Complete Multi-Vitamin Mineral Supplement, Tablets
$9.99 divided by 100 = 10 cents per tablet
Centrum Multivitamin/Multimineral with Lutein, Buy 100 Get 30 Free, Tablets
$9.99 divided by 130 = 7.6 cents per tablet
Doesn’t seem like it is fair of you to make accusations like you did above without doing any homework and offering no evidence on the subject. I think it would be fair to say though that this post does expose a pre-existing prejudice that you have against the supplement.
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51
In reply to Re: About the Supplement » stjames, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 16:26:37
I think you are clueless. Dosage, honey, not pills !
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