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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Elizabeth on December 13, 1998, at 20:02:17
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by obilot on December 13, 1998, at 19:12:26
MAPS does have a lot of info on this, yeah.
Anecdotally, I do know that a number of people get depressed after taking Ecstasy.
SSRIs (and probably Serzone as well) may provide some protection against post-MDMA depression.
In regard to kindling: I think this is plausible; however, one can't assume that because many people with mental illness have used drugs, the drugs must have caused the illness. My impression is that a lot of drug abuse among mentally ill persons is an attempt to self-medicate.
Posted by racer on December 26, 1998, at 20:42:03
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA by Mr Zest, posted by Nancy on December 13, 1998, at 15:28:37
Sorry, can't email directly - that's closer than I can be right now.
But I will say this to your manic experiences: if you look closely at the "great" artists of the western world, many of them have been bi-polar. And many of those who were not had close relatives who were.
My favorite story is William Cowper. He was a poet of the late eighteenth century (Mr Dalloway used to recite one of his poems in the book...). He was locked up for madness: he thought the Devil was talking to him. Then he told the doctors that God was talking to him. They declared him cured and sent him home. Sound kinda like a really simple explanation of bipolar? In 1936, the kennedy professor of latin at Oxford gave a lecture on poetry in which he said that madness was conducive to creativity. He claimed that the 18th century had produced only four true poets: Cowper, Collins, Smart and Blake. Surprise, they had all been locked up for madness in their lives. (Don't get me started on why the lecture was wrong about "true" poetry! I could be here all week. Though, I would feel better at the end of it... I like the subject.) There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to say that there is an obverse side to the torment of bipolar disorder, and there is a lot of information on it available.
I hope that helps
Posted by saint james on December 28, 1998, at 7:20:06
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
> Hi, my name is Nicole and I'm 26. I just started taking serzone this month at 100mg.
> This December I was planning on going to Florida and taking MDMA.
> I am now concerned about the negative interaction between the two.
> Could you please tell me what the possible side-effects could be?
> Thank you
> Nicole
James here....Hmmm...I;ll come clean here...I had consederable expwerience with XTC and Meth for about 3 yrs. The drugs run your neurotransmitter system wide open..wide wide open. An AD works to order the neurotransmitter systems and speed (XTC, too) at doses of abuse work opsite this. XTC depletes your body of AD's. If you are already depressed and on an AD taking XTC will deplete you body of AD and can make your depression worse for the short term (definantly) and long term (varies person to person) Another real issue is that AD's tend to lower your convulsive threshold and when you take speed on top of an AD (and XTC is very much speed) you run a greater risk of having a seizure. ( I know personally about this !)
Yes Virgina...I have long term damage (mood) from taking meth and XTC...I only used for 3 yrs and I did do a LOT. Those that did not have pre-existing mood problems and did a little meth or XTC are OK 10 yrs out (I am speaking of my friends) Personally I feel for those of us who need meds to stabilize mood or thought need to stay away from speed unless perscribed...and then the dosages perscribed are going to be far far less than the dosages of abuse. 1 dose XTC definatly scrambles the brain far far more that 1 dose meth and I am in no way saying "go for the meth !"james
Posted by Nancy on December 29, 1998, at 16:45:58
In reply to Hey, Nancy, posted by racer on December 26, 1998, at 20:42:03
> But I will say this to your manic experiences: if you look closely at the "great" artists of the western world, many of them have been bi-polar. And many of those who were not had close relatives who were.
*Let's also mention, most of those bipolar writers/artists didn't live much passed 30years of age. Most died from drug overdose. "Give me anything to stop the pain," is our code. Why must we suffer so? My first psychopharmacologist dogmatically professed that there is a heavy price to pay for genius. He had me tested and the results were, as you can already deduce, astounding. I was well advanced acedemically and scored on the level of creative genius. He said that, genius comes with madness attatched to it. Oh, did I mention that I'm an accomplished violinist and pianist? Also, my chemistry degree was earned with great honors in the top 0.05 percentile nationally. Alas, I had become too ill to attend medical school. But, I did manage to pursue graduate studies in neurobiology[fascinating research grounded in Parkinsonianism]. Perhaps, if all does not go to hell, and I finally stablize well enough to function at daily tasks, then I will pursue my doctorate of Neurochemistry.
> My favorite story is William Cowper. He was a poet of the late eighteenth century. He was locked up for madness: he thought the Devil was talking to him. Then he told the doctors that God was talking to him. They declared him cured and sent him home. Sound kinda like a really simple explanation of bipolar? In 1936, the kennedy professor of latin at Oxford gave a lecture on poetry in which he said that madness was conducive to creativity. He claimed that the 18th century had produced only four true poets: Cowper, Collins, Smart and Blake. Surprise, they had all been locked up for madness in their lives. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to say that there is an obverse side to the torment of bipolar disorder, and there is a lot of information on it available.
> I hope that helps*I've taken down the poets' names that you so graciously supplied. Like you, I can't seem to get enough to read! Finally, I'd rather read about someone else's horror stories related to psychiatric hospitals, than remember my own experiences! Ugh!!!
*Thank you ever so much for taking the time to help me. Please, feel free to drop me an e-mail if you need someone to share with.
Your Mad Scientist,
Nancy
Posted by neuroblast on February 2, 2000, at 17:50:48
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Toby on October 21, 1998, at 8:30:35
It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
Posted by Kev on February 2, 2000, at 21:22:04
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by neuroblast on February 2, 2000, at 17:50:48
> It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
***A couple cans of Holsten Festbock and a good cigar will also make you forget what depression is like for a few hours.
-Kev
Posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Kev on February 2, 2000, at 21:22:04
> > It's funny watching know-it-alls come up with their own theories made up of a mishmash of media lies, "personal experience," and short term studies that are inconclusive. Scientists are only scratching the surface of the neurochemistry of MDMA in the human brain. MDMA does cause pruning of seratonin axons and fine serotonergic arborizations, 5HT and 5HT2 receptors, failure of 5HT synthesizing enzymes, as well as depletion of the brain's store of seratonin up to 80%throughout the human brain, not simply in localized areas. Areas of profound damage include the prefrontal cortex, frontal cortex, hippocampus, and the medial and dorsal raphe nuclei to name a few. It does not kill the cell bodies, and serotonergic pathways and functions are restored to normal function after 4-12 months. The significance of this is that your memory and ability to think may be impaired after taking multiple doses of MDMA; the damage is temporary. As far as Serzone is concerned, it blocks the reuptake of seratonin as well as being a 5HT receptor agonist. Being a receptor agonist, this will heighten the effects of MDMA. Instead of Serzone, 1 hour after ingesting MDMA, an SSRI such as prozac, paxil or zoloft should be taken to protect against neurotoxic effects. As far as MDMA is concerned, I recommend taking it. It's fantastic, and will make you forget what depression feels like for 5 hours. Don't do it regularly, and ALWAYS take an SSRI with it, because it will save your brain. If you somehow can get a hold of a dopamine and seratonin SRI, which I believe Effexor is, this would be better than an SSRI as dopamine oxidation has been implicated in MDMA's neurotoxic effects.
>From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
Posted by St_Yossarian on May 23, 2000, at 18:31:46
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
> From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
I take 400 mg of Serzone a day. I've tried MDMA once. It was a wonderful experience with all the commonly-reported effects. But the following afternoon, I began to have excruciating hot and cold flashes all over my body. These lasted for about 24 hours. I don't know if this had anything to do with an interaction. The MDMA may have been impure, but my fellow-ravers who received theirs from the same source experienced no adverse effects. I've found nothing reported online remotely similar to my experience and would like some answers if anybody has them.
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 16:45:27
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by St_Yossarian on May 23, 2000, at 18:31:46
Just wanted to say I like your name. Now, was Yossarian the one who is neither dead nor alive? Or is he the main character? I forget--it has been years.
Posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
In reply to Serzone and MDMA, posted by Nicole on October 16, 1998, at 22:54:44
I have a different angle to this question. I would never trust medication that I purchased "off the streets" Do you really know what you're getting?
Posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 12:05:46
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
> I have a different angle to this question. I would never trust medication that I purchased "off the streets" Do you really know what you're getting?
James here....
The Marquis reagent used in pill testing kits will
tell you if MDMA/MDA are present and if other things are present.james
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 18:38:10
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 12:05:46
James - I just read a cool article on MDMA and Celexa™ (citalopram). Celexa decreases the effects of Ecstacy by 60% but prolongs the half life to 5 hours from 3 hours. Low level buzz for longer. The paper extrapolated this to all SSRIs. - Cam
Posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 22:19:25
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 18:38:10
> James - I just read a cool article on MDMA and Celexa™ (citalopram). Celexa decreases the effects of Ecstacy by 60%
but prolongs the half life to 5 hours from 3 hours. Low level buzz for longer. The paper extrapolated this to all SSRIs. - CamJames here....
AD's block the effects of XTC in many people, they did in me.
I did get the amphetamine effects but did not "roll" nor did
I get the warm empathic feelings. Hmmm.... very interesting, Cam.
Taking an SSRI w/XTC is touted as stoping any neurotoxic effect of XTC (but
there is little proof XTC is neurotoxic in any sig amount and this info comes from
animal studies) I am strongly aganist this as I think one is playing with fire.
This gives me more proof. If one were to take lots of X and Celexa™ I feel there would be
dangers due to the longer action. Things like overheating, which are neuro destructive.
If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.james
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:17:47
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 22:19:25
> If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
> the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.
>>james
James - I'll do you one better. I'll take you to the journal:http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/Show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
It's the 7th article from the top:
Matthias E, etal. Acute Psychological Effects of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstacy) are Attenuated by the Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor Citalopram, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(5); May, 2000:504-512.
You can view it online or download it and print it.
While you are at it, check out:
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/Show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
It's the 5th article from the top:
Tuchtenhagen MD, et al. High Intensity Dependence of Auditory Evoked Dipole Source Activity in Abstinenct Ecstacy (MDMA) Users, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(6): 608-617.
Have fun and give me the gist of the conversation these evoke - Cam
Posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:27:26
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Cam W. on August 24, 2000, at 23:17:47
> > If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
> > the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.
> >
>
> >james
>
>
> James - I'll do you one better. I'll take you to the journal:
>
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
>
> It's the 7th article from the top:
>
> Matthias E, etal. Acute Psychological Effects of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstacy) are Attenuated by the Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor Citalopram, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(5); May, 2000:504-512.
>
> You can view it online or download it and print it.
>
> While you are at it, check out:
>
http://www.elsevier.nl/gej-ng/10/33/33/33/28/show/Products/NPS/toc.htt
>
> It's the 5th article from the top:
>
> Tuchtenhagen MD, et al. High Intensity Dependence of Auditory Evoked Dipole Source Activity in Abstinenct Ecstacy (MDMA) Users, Neuropsychopharmacology, 22(6): 608-617.
>
> Have fun and give me the gist of the conversation these evoke - CamOkay, try it with small "s" in /show/ (sigh). I guess I ain't no Bill Gates. - Cam
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2000, at 8:01:28
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 24, 2000, at 22:19:25
> If you have the title of this paper, send it on, please. I would like to pass it to
> the MAPS list and watch the PhD's discuss it.
>
> james
Hi James.What is the MAPS list?
- Scott
Posted by Big Mike on August 25, 2000, at 11:08:06
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Dixon on August 24, 2000, at 11:34:58
But if MDMA did cause permanent/temporary damage...what would it damage and would an SSRI work to restore what was damaged, and if so, how does this work????
Posted by CraigF on August 25, 2000, at 12:30:47
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Big Mike on August 25, 2000, at 11:08:06
I know this isn't terribly scientific or anything, but my doc told me after reading recent studies that the brain repairs the receptors eventually, but they grow back shorter, and in a different position. This lessens their effectiveness and can eventually lower the efficacy of AD's.
He added, however, that some people seem fairly immune to the effects of E while some psyches can't handle it well at all. Unfortunately, I fall into the latter category.
Posted by stjames on August 25, 2000, at 12:53:09
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by SLS on August 25, 2000, at 8:01:28
>
> Hi James.
>
> What is the MAPS list?
>
>
> - Scott"The Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) is a membership-based non-profit research and educational organization. We assist scientists to design, fund, obtain approval for and report on studies into the healing and spiritual potentials of MDMA, psychedelic drugs and marijuana. "
Posted by cd on September 2, 2000, at 20:47:05
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by stjames on August 25, 2000, at 12:53:09
Just for the sake of putting the toxicity of MDMA into perspective,
search for its structure on the web and do the same for Paxil.
Compare the two and the similarity jumps at you.
Hmmm wonder where they came up with the idea for Paxil.
Attach MDMA to another molecule to slow its effects and you have your new wonder dug.
Anectdotal evidence from people I know who have taken Paxil and MDMA in various combinations,
that is together, one before the other, after washout periods etc..
would seem to point to an accelerated removal of MDMA from the body after exposure to Paxil.
Perhaps the body is just used to chewing up the MDMA molecule after daily exposure to a similar item through Paxil?
As things stand, no one says long term Paxil
or short term rare MDMA exposure is going to cause major irreversible damage.
Posted by noa on September 4, 2000, at 13:03:52
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by cd on September 2, 2000, at 20:47:05
A major difference that is very important is that with prescription medications, the potency and volume is standardized and reliable. With street drugs, you never know what and how much and how strong.
Posted by Ryan P. on October 30, 2000, at 10:35:39
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Bons on May 22, 2000, at 22:48:12
> From what I understand serzone is an SSRI and inhibits the effects of X, my advice if you really want to try it, lay off the serzone for a week, that is what my friends have done in the past. Apparently the X wont really work at all if you take it while taking serzone. I am not saying this is the best idea in the world, but if your set on trying X at least enjoy it.
I would have to agree. I'm 22 years old, and I started taking X two years ago. While I was once taking up to two pills a week, I am currently taking X only once or twice a month. I was also recently prescribed Serzone for social anxiety. I started taking it about 7 weeks ago, and am up to 500 mg/day (possibly will take more). The last two times I've taken X (both within the last 7 weeks), I've had very minimal "rolling" effects from X. It is my understanding that Prozac has been proven to prevent the effectiveness of X, but I had not heard that about other anti-depressants. Is there an anti-depressant that will not limit the effectiveness of X? I'm beginning to feel like doing X now is just a waste of money. And probably isn't helping the anti-depressant do its job very well.
Posted by CraigF on October 31, 2000, at 7:55:21
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by Ryan P. on October 30, 2000, at 10:35:39
Not only that, but by taking ecstacy you are destroying your brain's ability to maintain a good mood, free of anxiety. Ask your doctor.
I'm not being sanctimonious, I'm 28 myself and all my friends roll. I had to stop because it affects my moods too much in the long run.
The choice is yours, but make sure you know what it is doing to your brain. Find out from your doctor, not Time magazine, not a DARE poster.
Posted by Ryan P. on November 1, 2000, at 11:44:34
In reply to Re: Serzone and MDMA, posted by CraigF on October 31, 2000, at 7:55:21
> Not only that, but by taking ecstacy you are destroying your brain's ability to maintain a good mood, free of anxiety. Ask your doctor.
>
> I'm not being sanctimonious, I'm 28 myself and all my friends roll. I had to stop because it affects my moods too much in the long run.
>
> The choice is yours, but make sure you know what it is doing to your brain. Find out from your doctor, not Time magazine, not a DARE poster.I know full well what it is doing to my brain. I've done an adequate amount of research and understand the functions of serotonin and the process utilized by neurotransmitters and axons, etc. I do research on any drug that I might take-including serzone. My question is not concerning the harmful effects of E. I already know all that stuff. My question is regarding the combination of both E and serzone. That combination I do not understand as clearly. What causes the two chemicals to balance each other out? It seems that an anti-depressant that enhances serotonin would complement an illegal drug that does, in essence, the same thing. Just to let you know, I've cut down on E use specifically because I know that it can be harmful with overuse, but I also believe that in moderation, the drug can be not only safe but also can provide a unique outlet that allows me to open up and share thoughts with friends and others that I wouldn't normally feel comfortable enough to express.
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