![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tina on August 16, 2000, at 2:09:26
Tried the herbals, now what? Can't sleep and dont' want to get addicted to anything. What can I take now?? I tried all the herbal stuff, and teas and warm milk and meditation. I think only a med will do but what isn't addicting?? I've asked my docs and they won't give me anything, SH*T. I'm sick of waking up at 2:44 am every damn day.
A frustrated Tina
Posted by SarahB on August 16, 2000, at 2:21:14
In reply to Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by tina on August 16, 2000, at 2:09:26
I'm sure someone has already suggested Benedryl. Works pretty good and not much hang over in the morning... ya' never know, give it a whirl...
Sarah
Posted by Cam W. on August 16, 2000, at 7:04:21
In reply to Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by tina on August 16, 2000, at 2:09:26
Tina - Go to you are doc and tell him, "My sleep architecture is not what it should be. Could you please help me before I go postal. I'm so tired, I can't even clean my guns properly"
Ask him what he thinks of 25mg or 50mg of trazodone (Desyrel™) at bedtime (sedating, but non-addicting, little chance of morning hangover effect and relatively very safe).
Just a thought, Cam.
Posted by Kath on August 16, 2000, at 10:47:11
In reply to Re: Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by Cam W. on August 16, 2000, at 7:04:21
Cam - for info for my daughter....Could she take Desyrel with Manerix?
Thx Kath
> Tina - Go to you are doc and tell him, "My sleep architecture is not what it should be. Could you please help me before I go postal. I'm so tired, I can't even clean my guns properly"
>
> Ask him what he thinks of 25mg or 50mg of trazodone (Desyrel™) at bedtime (sedating, but non-addicting, little chance of morning hangover effect and relatively very safe).
>
> Just a thought, Cam.
Posted by danf on August 16, 2000, at 13:01:59
In reply to Cam - LOVE your sense of humour! : - ))) » Cam W., posted by Kath on August 16, 2000, at 10:47:11
guns to a pdoc !!! not even in a joke...
At one time I metioned guns to my Pdoc & she almost had a seizure. even tho I was telling her I had sold some.
Didn't mention the ones I kept. This is a very tender subject for some reason.
They don't seem to have the same problem with my poison spiders, snakes, amazon tree frogs, etc
LOL
Posted by Cam W. on August 16, 2000, at 23:05:28
In reply to Cam - LOVE your sense of humour! : - ))) » Cam W., posted by Kath on August 16, 2000, at 10:47:11
Tina & Kath - Some docs are afraid of serotonin syndrome with Desyrel (trazodone) and Manerix (moclobemide), but this really shouldn't be a problem with the low doses of Desyrel used for sleep. Tina, you can monitor for serotonin syndrome yourself (racing heart and sweating are common signs). I generallly see mild serotonin syndrome when switching from Manerix to an SSRI (both at therapeutic doses). The therapeutic antidepressant dose of Desyrel is approximately 450mg to 600mg, if I remember correctly (haven't seen it used as an antidepressant for a long time). You can use a tenth of the dose to induce sleep. I remember one lady who was taking 450mg of Manerix and she told me she was too tired to be depressed (also, her husband came in and complained to me that her sex drive went through the roof - they were both in their 70s). Ask your doc his opinion on the combination.
Dan - Sorry about the gun comment. Here in Canada you have to register to get picture I.D. just to buy ammo. We have drive-by insulting here, instead. - Cam
Posted by JohnL on August 17, 2000, at 5:57:21
In reply to Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by tina on August 16, 2000, at 2:09:26
> Tried the herbals, now what? Can't sleep and dont' want to get addicted to anything. What can I take now?? I tried all the herbal stuff, and teas and warm milk and meditation. I think only a med will do but what isn't addicting?? I've asked my docs and they won't give me anything, SH*T. I'm sick of waking up at 2:44 am every damn day.
> A frustrated TinaTrazodone is commonly used for sleep. Personally it didn't agree with me at all. I really didn't like it. It gave me monster headaches, actually worsened sleep, and a real drugged feeling during the day, even though it is supposedly a short halflife med. But others do fine with it. Remeron is my favorite. Half of the minimum dose is all it takes. Not enough to be any concern combined with any other med, even MAOIs. Another option might be a sedating tricyclic antidepressant. Your doctor could help make the best choice in that category. Traz, Remeron, tricyclics...all good for sleep, good for combinations, non-addictive, non-abusable.
John
Posted by allisonm on August 17, 2000, at 22:37:22
In reply to Re: Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by Cam W. on August 16, 2000, at 7:04:21
Sleep architecture? Does that really exist too?
I'll never forget when my doctor brought up my "sleep hygiene" (or lack there of). I was kinda pretty darn insulted. What about my hygiene? You leave my hygiene alone! The nerve. I take showers, I wash my dishes and change the sheets once a week, I turn my headlights on when it rains, I vote, when it runs out I always replace the toilet paper roll for the next person, and I never ever rip the labels off of mattresses... I'll do what I want with my REM, thank you very much.
We do a lot with drive-by handsignals over here...
and I've been meaning to ask how you get the trademark sign next to the brandname drugs. pretty cool.
Posted by Cam W. on August 17, 2000, at 23:10:50
In reply to sleep architecture Cam, posted by allisonm on August 17, 2000, at 22:37:22
Allison -
> Sleep architecture? Does that really exist too?
I got that from a couple of studies on Serzone™ (nefazodone) and I believe it to mean that this antidepressant normalizes the stages of sleep (ie too little REM - dream phase sleep - leads to an unrestful sleep. Some sleeping pills wipe out REM sleep, especially the longer acting benzodiazepines and the antihistamine sleep aids like Nytol™ and Benadryl™. This occurs at higher doses, usually. There are a number of different stages of sleep and, as a group, this is known as sleep architecture (I think - it's been a while since I have read about this and my brain is still misfiring).
> and I've been meaning to ask how you get the trademark sign next to the brandname drugs. pretty cool.I've got an I-Mac computer because I need something that is idiot-proof. Depressing the alt (or option) key gives you all kinds of neat symbols and alphabets. Using the shift key as well gives you more. For example, the keyboard is set up like this with the alt key depressed:
`¡£¢*§¶•ªº–*
œ*´®Ý¥¨ˆø*“‘«
åß*ƒ©·*°¬…æ
*=ç**˜µ**÷and with the shift and alt keys depressed at the same time:
`/€ÐðÞþý°·‚—±
Œ„´‰*Á¨ˆØ*”’»
ÅÍÎÏ*ÓÔ*ÒÚÆ
¸*Ç*i˜Â¯*¿The one's that show up as * are symbols that do not show up when posted (usually the cooler symbols). For example, the one in the previous sentence is the Apple apple. I believe it was Janice who turned me on to this. I don't know if real computers (ie IBMs) do this. - Cam
Posted by stjames on August 18, 2000, at 0:07:48
In reply to Re: sleep architecture Cam » allisonm, posted by Cam W. on August 17, 2000, at 23:10:50
I don't know if real computers (ie IBMs) do this. - Cam
>james here....
In PC's/Win$$ it is called "Character Map" in start/programs/accessories (if it is installed)
does the accent è, é and ê and more fun stuff like
ÜßðÆÑÜjames
Posted by stjames on August 18, 2000, at 0:12:00
In reply to Re: Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by JohnL on August 17, 2000, at 5:57:21
Doxipin and now Remeron are my favorite sleep meds. Since 1985 I only have a few day a year where I don;t get good sleep thanks to meds. My
sleep is improved due to these meds; I now feel rested when i wake up.james
Posted by tina on August 18, 2000, at 18:02:02
In reply to Re: Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by stjames on August 18, 2000, at 0:12:00
I told the doc that I need better sleep. She doesn't want to give me anything else so I picked up some Benedryl. Well, i fell asleep alright, and was rewarded at 3am with a major panic attack. What's with that?? I tried it again last night and had another panic attack at about 3:30am. Can anyone explain why this happened??
I like the fact that it makes me sleepy but these panic attacks really suck!
Doxipin and now Remeron are my favorite sleep meds. Since 1985 I only have a few day a year where I don;t get good sleep thanks to meds. My
> sleep is improved due to these meds; I now feel rested when i wake up.
>
> james
Posted by stjames on August 18, 2000, at 22:41:47
In reply to Re:Doc said no to sleep-aid--Cam, James, sunnely??, posted by tina on August 18, 2000, at 18:02:02
> I told the doc that I need better sleep. She doesn't want to give me anything else so I picked up some Benedryl. Well, i fell asleep alright, and was rewarded at 3am with a major panic attack. What's with that?? I tried it again last night and had another panic attack at about 3:30am. Can anyone explain why this happened??
> I like the fact that it makes me sleepy but these panic attacks really suck!
>james here....
Are you seeing a pdoc ? If you are seeing a generaL doc
and did not mention trying a sedating AD they would assume
you are asking for sleeping pills, ie addictive. You might
need to be specific in asking for a sleep aid. A consult with a
pdoc (if you are not seeing one) would be anoyher idea.Herbs.... Valerian, Kava Kava, and Skullcap if you
have not tried them might help. You should check to see if these
herbs are OK to take with your meds as herbs are drugs, too.
Avoid OTC sleep aids,they are either benadryl or induce retrograde memory
loss.james
Posted by JohnL on August 19, 2000, at 3:59:41
In reply to Re:Doc said no to sleep-aid--Cam, James, sunnely??, posted by stjames on August 18, 2000, at 22:41:47
I agree with Cam. You should be seeing a doctor who can treat you correctly. Any doctor who won't prescribe a small dose of the antidepressant Remeron as a sleep aid is pretty darn lame in my book.
Your doctor should realize--but apparently doesn't--that good sleep is vitally important for good health. Both physical health and mental health.
If I were you, I would get on the phone and call that doctor today and ask them to call in a prescription to your pharmacy for 15mg tabs of Remeron. Tell your doc you will break them in half and use 7.5mg as a sleep aid. Don't ask. Tell them, "I need you to...", or "I want you to...". Something like that. Don't do it by scheduling another appointment, or by waiting until the next appointment. Do it by phone call. Today. I've never yet ran into a doctor that wouldn't do this.
If the doc still resists, this usually works...compromise and do a little deal-making. Tell your doc you will be satisfied with just a half dozen tabs. Nobody can overdose on that. Nobody can get addicted to that either. Of course, with Remeron, you couldn't overdose or get addicted anyway, but who knows what this doc's expertise is. Some doctors respond well to demands for small quantities, because they know there is no potential for harm. They might not be fully supportive or committed to the idea, but they will reluctantly go along with it because it appears less risky in such small quantity. Tell your doc that should be enough to see if it works the way you want it to. Tell your doc we can talk again when the 6 tabs are almost gone, to either renew the prescription or try something else. This way, you've not only obtained a good sleep aid, but you've also opened the door to trying something else if you don't like Remeron.
Hope it helps. Sometimes we have to be a little more assertive than we normally would be. In this case, I think your situation warrants demanding rather than asking. Nicely of course. :-)
John
Posted by afatchic on August 19, 2000, at 19:55:35
In reply to Re:Doc said no to sleep-aid, posted by JohnL on August 19, 2000, at 3:59:41
> I agree with Cam. You should be seeing a doctor who can treat you correctly. Any doctor who won't prescribe a small dose of the antidepressant Remeron as a sleep aid is pretty darn lame in my book.
>
> Your doctor should realize--but apparently doesn't--that good sleep is vitally important for good health. Both physical health and mental health.
>
> If I were you, I would get on the phone and call that doctor today and ask them to call in a prescription to your pharmacy for 15mg tabs of Remeron. Tell your doc you will break them in half and use 7.5mg as a sleep aid. Don't ask. Tell them, "I need you to...", or "I want you to...". Something like that. Don't do it by scheduling another appointment, or by waiting until the next appointment. Do it by phone call. Today. I've never yet ran into a doctor that wouldn't do this.
>
> If the doc still resists, this usually works...compromise and do a little deal-making. Tell your doc you will be satisfied with just a half dozen tabs. Nobody can overdose on that. Nobody can get addicted to that either. Of course, with Remeron, you couldn't overdose or get addicted anyway, but who knows what this doc's expertise is. Some doctors respond well to demands for small quantities, because they know there is no potential for harm. They might not be fully supportive or committed to the idea, but they will reluctantly go along with it because it appears less risky in such small quantity. Tell your doc that should be enough to see if it works the way you want it to. Tell your doc we can talk again when the 6 tabs are almost gone, to either renew the prescription or try something else. This way, you've not only obtained a good sleep aid, but you've also opened the door to trying something else if you don't like Remeron.
>
> Hope it helps. Sometimes we have to be a little more assertive than we normally would be. In this case, I think your situation warrants demanding rather than asking. Nicely of course. :-)
>
> John
Posted by Phillip Marx on August 21, 2000, at 19:13:43
In reply to Oh the ever elusive sleep, posted by tina on August 16, 2000, at 2:09:26
> Tried the herbals, now what? Can't sleep and dont' want to get addicted to anything. What can I take now?? I tried all the herbal stuff, and teas and warm milk and meditation. I think only a med will do but what isn't addicting?? I've asked my docs and they won't give me anything, SH*T. I'm sick of waking up at 2:44 am every damn day.
> A frustrated TinaI’d like to make a few suggestions to insomniacs, also ADD/ADHD, since I suspect that some of that is due to years of poor sleep or forced sleep and wakefulness during hours when people really are as out of sync as they feel and think. I found a way to get to sleep without medicine, without herbs. Disclaimer: this only fixes a particularly poorly recognized imbalance, not all possible sleep disorders. This is a healthy place to start, and a harmless thing to try, if a lot of medications fail to do anything except imbalance you into a sedentary sedated lifestyle with an involuntary hermit appearance.
Get an ear thermometer or one of those Q-tips brand (has an extra digit of resolution) basal temperature (pregnancy) thermometers and start plotting you daily temperature rhythms. It is very, very indicative. When your temperature drops into the 96s, your hormones want you to hibernate for a few hours, when you “wake up” you should warm up to the low 99s for a couple of hours. “My” temperature has been nearly flat-line at 97.6 for years until about a month ago when I started this and now I have a strong circadian temperature profile. If your poor self or kid has your/his/her sleep hormones trying to knock ya’all out during work/school or other inappropriate hours, then don’t medicate them for something else. Even if the medication has forcing function benefits, it can mask the real problems while causing the usual plethora of mis-medication derivatives. At the very least, you can learn how to assess sleep medications (and sympathy synchronizations) and get smarter about start times. Caution: you CAN get a little grouchy from medication withdrawal, lest you get damaged from being over-joyed, I suggest a gentle transition if you can. If your worries (near-panic) from benzodiazepene disinhibition recede, watch out for a rebound to care-free-less-ness.
I watched a TV infomercial for CalMax (channel surf stop at keyword: “sleep”) and simulated his customized and purified nutritional benefit with dolomite and Vitamin C in very hot water ( >160 F). What a difference, even the severe headaches are gone now. (hmmm, I wonder if aspirin acid selectively tweaks serum/apatite calcium ratios?)
You can spend weeks checking out how this works as I did first, start here or just try it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=calcium+magnesium+sleep+insomniaI don’t know if a single short incident (PTSD, not merely “post” traumatic stress disorder in my case, but definitely a “persisting” traumatizing stress disorder) or a relatively long period of stress nutrition abuse does this, maybe probably both. I think a strong shock can upset and/or knock down a system without warning and I think a long run down can cause one to run down just as badly. I think everyone has a different stasis position for their relative acidity/alkalinity (gee, watch the people at restaurants and school cafeterias served mood and energy altering food, for both short and long term effects). I am stunned by how much different I am now that I let acids back into my diet. My stress is now down to where I don’t need Gold Bond for three weeks after every work crisis. Antacids were always too little too late to protect skin, I have sweat scars from learning too late to avoid all acidic foods during stress cycles, a possible contributing factor to a wrong direction rebound. Blood pressure medicines include calcium channel blockers to energy starve one out of being able to work their blood pressure up. There are many calcium blockers medicines and even trace lead poisoning affects calcium ingestion/utilization.
I hadn’t gotten even an hour’s sleep without medication in almost seven years before I tried this. Now I also can’t get to sleep before sunrise, but I also can’t get up before noon, so I should have chosen better when to restart my circadian rhythms for better daylight consciousness. I also recently started taking Iodine supplementation since I have a near zero salt diet and both hypo and hyper activity need iodine for regulation. Kids sure seem to wind up on salty fast foods, now I can without salt. Iodine affects the parathyroid, which affects calcium absorption. Iodized sea salt has been my other switch, since regular salt has up to 25% talc (=aluminum, which I don’t think is so inert in an alkaline food).
There seems to be a ton of research on Caffeine, Calcium and Magnesium related to sleep, maybe my initial “presenting” condition as so otherwise healthy defeated an initial impression of an over-stressed nutrition disorder. I am very grateful to my latest doctor who brought me back from so many medicinally compounded (and generated) problems that I now have a hope and a chance of getting all this history way, way behind me.
I worked (a little over half a decade ago on an ambulatory micro EEG array research proposal) with Dr. James Swanson, Ph.D. (@ UCI - head of the only federally funded ADD university research program). I think I will put together some references like this to test on his hard-core or fringe ADD subjects. Some of those people are very fully documented for prior condition. I will have to prune through the following someday, but I don’t have time now.
Anticonvulsant medications may alter both vitamin D and bone mineral metabolism, particularly in certain disorders, in the institutionalized, and in the elderly. Although symptomatic skeletal disease is uncommon in noninstitutionalized settings, optimal calcium intake is advised for persons using anticonvulsants.
http://text.nlm.nih.gov/nih/cdc/www/97txt.htmlhttp://lifesci.arc.nasa.gov/LIS/Hardware_App/circadian_rhythm2.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.websciences.org/sleepandhealth/duffy.html+circadian+temperature&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.math.utah.edu/~hills/time.html+circadian+temperature&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.csen.com/theory/bbt.htm+circadian+temperature&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.circadian.com/learning_center/circadian_temp.htm+circadian+temperature&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.srssleep.org/srs/edgar.htm+circadian+temperature&hl=en
Electrolytes and dopamine
http://www.pitt.edu/~jgdst7/research/calcium/calcium.htm
Lou Gehrig's disease, Lauren Tewes husband of LoveBoat fame has this:
http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/neurol/research/als/als8.html
Yikes, Calcium and Alzheimer's
http://www.alzforum.org/members/about/board/khatch/95150330.html
Worldwide Research
http://www.ion.ucl.ac.uk/~dkullman/CalciumChannels.htm
Oxytocin Niric Oxide -- Effects of selective regulators of hepatic function
on calcium mobilization in hepatocytes using quantitative fluorescence
imaging to measure intracellular calcium and calcium oscillations.
Research Projects:
Neuroprotective action of estrogenic steroids Estrogen Regulation of Intracellular Calcium Signaling using quantitative fluorescence calcium imaginghttp://www.usc.edu/hsc/pharmacy/mptx/labs/brinton-lab/brintonteam.htm
Movies
http://www.cellbio.com/research.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.mbl.edu/ARTICLES/Loligo/Armstrong/Loligo1.html+calcium+research&hl=en
excitotoxicity of ischemic brain
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.bme.jhu.edu/labs/dyue/research.html+calcium+research&hl=en
http://www.ima.umn.edu/dynsys/winter/dynsys6.html
http://www.compneuro.umn.edu/research.html
brain aging
http://www.alzforum.org/members/about/board/khatch/91175856.html
Modeling
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.bme.jhu.edu/ccmb/ccmbresearch.html+calcium+research&hl=en
Iodine-131 Thyroid Research (Early '50s); Additional Calcium Metabolism Studies on Elderly Subjects (Early '50s)
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/histories/0473/0473_b.html
Neurotransmitters decrease the calcium Component of sensory neurone action potentials.
http://www.alzforum.org/members/about/board/archive/fisch/79073166.html
The Thyroid Treatment/Osteoporosis Controversy
http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa061100a.htm
Calcium Glutamate (vision)
http://cwisdb.cc.kuleuven.ac.be/research/P/3M96/project3M961986.htm
Calcium and Short-term Memory
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.med.harvard.edu/publications/On_The_Brain/Volume4/Number1/Calcium.html+calcium+research&hl=en
Brain damage
http://www.stroke.org/NS805.0_AcuteTrtRes.html
light sensitivity http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/bbs/Archive/bbs.neur3.bownds.html
http://www.nhgri.nih.gov/festival99/mini_symposia_session_2c.html
Funny Calcium leached by lactic acid in muscles is an anti-microbial indicating mobility is curative?
http://www.aari.ab.ca/research/ari/bidf/97/97h097.html
http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/bib/usednrn.html
http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/article/0,2669,SAV-0005180115,FF.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.electric-words.com/adey/adeyoverview1.html+calcium+research&hl=en
calcium and epilepsy http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.jax.org/pubinfo/media/releases/Stargazer.html+calcium+research&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:seasilver.threadnet.com/newsletter/mar-2000.htm+%22Wilson%27s+Syndrome%22&hl=en
http://www.thyroid.org/annonc/wilson.htm
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.