![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:39:35
regarding the descriptions in the recent thread ("Re:augment?ADD? ... http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000708/msgs/39944.html ) I hate to be left out of the club ;-) so just had to say that's the story of my life, too. (Along with the social anxiety and depression stories, it's a regular triad of woes I guess). However, the www.addclinic.org site doesn't seem to exist?? Anyway, I have been mostly considering them separately and attacking them in the order of depression=>social anxiety=>ADD w/o H so I haven't said much here about the ADD stuff but I totally identify with descriptions in the above-mentioned thread as well as the "jack-of-all-trades" thread a while ago.
Since the physical mechanisms aren't understood, these disorders are mainly convenient labels for symptoms and reality just ain't quite that convenient. So whatever you call it, here's another list (the "BAAD Scale") that might give some people that amazing 'lightning bolt' feeling (you know what I'm talking about) where you read a description of a disorder or a person's self-description, and it's like seeing your reflection in a mirror for the first time.
(I had written a bit of a personal story about how that happened to me a few years ago with a number of dysthymic/ADD people I 'met' through crossposts on the usenet depression and add support groups, but my computer has ADD too apparently - maybe it's good, it forces me to keep things short with some definitive unit of accomplishment before moving on. On that note I will end this message and post a reply, which will be the above-mentioned "BAAD Scale"
Posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
In reply to Attn Activation Disorder; perspective on ADD w/o H, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:39:35
okay, here it, as I originally obtained it.
Thanks and hugs to Nancy Gleason, wherever you are.Date: Sat, 10 Feb 96 09:45:00 -500
Distribution: world
Organization: Software Creations BBS
Reply-To: [email protected] (NANCY M GLEASON) X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.21
X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.10
Lines: 127Here's another testing scale ... this one comes from Dr. Brown at Yale, the one who is doing a lot of research into ADD without hyperactivity and ADD as it shows up in kids with high intelligence levels. I haven't seen much from him lately; does anyone know if he's still doing this kind of work?
Here goes
BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE
(Note: in this report the term ADD-H is used to signify "Attention Deficit Disorder WITHOUT Hyperactivity")
The AAD (Attention Activation Disorder) construct includes problems in the following areas:
Activating and organizing to work
Sustaining attention and concentration
Sustaining energy and effort
Irritability, depressed mood, rejection sensitivity Activating recall of aims and learned information"Bright children and adolescents who suffer from attention deficit disorder are at a special risk of having their ADD problems go unrecognized and untreated. Within a pattern of under-achievement, their natural intellectual abilities produce intermittent successes which can mask ADD problems, especially if the person is not hyperactive. This study involved a population of high-IQ children, adolescents, and adults who were underachieving and had symptoms of ADD-H.
Research by Lahey et al. (1988) has shown that Attention Deficit Disorder is not unidimensional and that a subgroup of ADD patients exhibits a pattern of inattention and sluggish tempo WITHOUT hyperactivity. Barkley (1990) has demonstrated that this subgroup also shows less aggression, impulsivity, and overactivity at home and at school, and more of a problem with memory, perceptual-motor speed, and central processing speed. Barkley has suggested that the symptoms of ADD-H are sufficiently different from those of ADHD to warrant considering these as two separate and unique disorders, rather than as subtypes of a single attention disturbance."
ACTIVATING AND ORGANIZING TO WORK
- Has difficulty getting started on tasks; e.g., homework,
reports.
- Feels overwhelmed; e.g., "No way I can do this now" by tasks
which should be managable.
- When first presented with many things to do, has difficulty
deciding which to do first and then getting started.
- Procrastinates excessively; keeps putting things off.
- Slow to react or get started; sluggish, slow moving, doesn't
just jump into things.
- Excessively perfectionist; has to get things "just so." - Sleeps very soundly; hard to wake up in the morning.
- Appears apathetic or unmotivated.
- Misunderstands directions for assignments or tasks.SUSTAINING ATTENTION AND CONCENTRATION
- When trying to pay attention to someone, e.g., class or
conversation, mind drifts off and briefly loses focus.
- Involuntary "spacing out" occurs intermittently when reading
or listening.
- Easily sidetracked; disrupts a task in progress and switches
to doing something else without any reason.
- When reading, loses track of what has just been read, so needs
to read it again.
- Easily loses track of the main point in reading books,
magazines, and newspapers.
- Gets lost in daydreaming, preoccupied with own thoughts.
- Easily distracted from a task by background noise or activities;
needs to check out whatever else is going on.
- Stares into space; seems "out of it." - Does not appear to be listening even when it is important
to do so.SUSTAINING ENERGY AND EFFORT
- Feels sleepy or fatigued, even after having had adequate sleep.
- Unable to complete assignments or tests in allotted time; needs
extra time to finish adequately.
- Criticized by others as being "lazy." - Inconsistent quality of work; performance quite variable; e.g.,
high grades mixed with low grades for no apparent reason.
- Criticized by others for "not working up to potential." - Energy tends to fade quickly; "runs out of steam." - Needs to be reminded by others; e.g, teachers, to get started or
to keep working on assigned tasks.
- Starts tasks; e.g., homework assignments, chores, etc., but
doesn't finish them completely.IRRITABILITY, DEPRESSED MOOD, REJECTION SENSITIVITY
- Easily irritated
- Sensitive to criticism from others. Feels it deeply or for a
long time, or gets overly defensive.
- Usually "laid back" in dealing with others but has outbursts
of intense anger.
- Has difficulty expressing anger appropriately to others.
- Mood is discouraged, depressed, "down." - Tends to be a loner among peers; keeps to self socially.
- Appears apathetic or unmotivated.ACTIVATING RECALL OF AIMS AND LEARNED INFORMATION
- Information learned well on one day cannot be recalled easily
when it is wanted; e.g., knows material well on night before
test, but cannot recall it adequately for the next day.
- "Freezes" when taking tests or exams; for a while is unable to
get organized and begin.
- Forgets things which were intended to be done; e.g., turn off
appliances, return phone calls, keep appointments, do
assignments, etc.
- Has difficulty memorizing; e.g., vocabulary, math facts,
names, dates, etc.-------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Thomas E. Brown, Ph.D.
Department of Psychology
Yale University
P.O. Box 6694
Hamden, CT 06517Hope this is helpful.
Nancy G.
Posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 21:04:34
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
Not everything on the "BAAD" list have I read mentioned by my babblemates AndrewB, DC/Dwight, KarenB, CarolAnn, Diane, SadSuzie, Lynne, JohnL, ryan_s or others seeming to be of an anergic/ADD/dysthymic bent, so I'd be interested to know if any of you find yourselves a very close match with this scale which seems to cover a large and wide-ranging set of traits.
When I first saw the "BAAD" scale, it was the quintessential 'lightning bolt' moment, but the electricity faded when I realized it didn't mean much. No one else was doing research about this, that I could find (KarenB, that stuff you said you read about 1/3 of ADDers being w/o H, etc.; was that at www.addclinic.org? That seems to have gone away.), it seemed like a stretch from ADD or a mix of ADD + dysthymia + atypical-depression's 'rejection sensitivity' (and atyp. depr. itself seems kinda amorphous), and there was no evidence of whether A/Ds, stimulants or something else should be used.
Still, 85% of it describes me like it was squeezed out of my brain with an orange-juicer so I've kept it all this time.
More importantly, I think just possibly psycho-babble has revealed a connection between "BAAD" and practical therapy because it seems to me there are several of us here who fit this (or other ADD w/o H descriptions discussed here) who have found effective, 'non-traditional' meds!!To summarize, here's my thought for the day:
• that the docs usually interpret the symptoms as depression,
• and predominantly prescribe SSRIs (e.g. ryan_s, KarenB, many more of us).
• But if these don't work (blecchhkk!) then, whether you call it better Dx or better Rx there is good hope with one or more of:
Adderall (KarenB and ryan_s - sorry to pick on you two again it's just the two I can remember now)
or [1 from column A: sulpiride or amisulpride] - KarenB (albeit with amineptine), Andrewb, JohnL somewhat, still waiting on SLS?
or [1 from column B: adrafinil or provigil] - JohnL, KarenB, Rick
or (maybe) [1 from column C: Wellbutrin or Reboxetine] - I think AndrewbThis seems underwhelming, now that I've written it. Obvious stuff maybe. Except it still seems to me that the usual pattern of treatment is susceptible to going off track. Depending on how you look at it, that could be due to an over-tendency to diagnose depression instead of other things, or an under-tendency to utilize certain medications.
peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by Sara T on July 15, 2000, at 21:57:38
In reply to Significance of BAAD/ADD-H/dysthymia?, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 21:04:34
> Not everything on the "BAAD" list have I read mentioned by my babblemates AndrewB, DC/Dwight, KarenB, CarolAnn, Diane, SadSuzie, Lynne, JohnL, ryan_s or others seeming to be of an anergic/ADD/dysthymic bent, so I'd be interested to know if any of you find yourselves a very close match with this scale which seems to cover a large and wide-ranging set of traits.
>
S.D.-
That list fits me to a T. I just today saw in the childcare and parenting section of Barnes & Nobles, two or three books about ADHD/ADD w/o H. So someone is doing research there.I did feel rejected that you didn't add me to your list of ADDers who post here. (sniff, sniff)
Sara T.
Posted by Sara T on July 15, 2000, at 22:05:20
In reply to Attn Activation Disorder; perspective on ADD w/o H, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:39:35
). However, the www.addclinic.org site doesn't seem to exist??
You have the URL wrong, it's www.A.D.D.clinic.com. it's still there.
Sara T.
Posted by SadSuzie on July 15, 2000, at 22:43:00
In reply to Significance of BAAD/ADD-H/dysthymia?, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 21:04:34
S.D.
Wow - reading the "BAAD" list is like reading a detailed description of myself. Thank your for this information. It is so nice to know that I am not alone.
> Not everything on the "BAAD" list have I read mentioned by my babblemates AndrewB, DC/Dwight, KarenB, CarolAnn, Diane, SadSuzie, Lynne, JohnL, ryan_s or others seeming to be of an anergic/ADD/dysthymic bent, so I'd be interested to know if any of you find yourselves a very close match with this scale which seems to cover a large and wide-ranging set of traits.
>
> When I first saw the "BAAD" scale, it was the quintessential 'lightning bolt' moment, but the electricity faded when I realized it didn't mean much. No one else was doing research about this, that I could find (KarenB, that stuff you said you read about 1/3 of ADDers being w/o H, etc.; was that at www.addclinic.org? That seems to have gone away.), it seemed like a stretch from ADD or a mix of ADD + dysthymia + atypical-depression's 'rejection sensitivity' (and atyp. depr. itself seems kinda amorphous), and there was no evidence of whether A/Ds, stimulants or something else should be used.
> Still, 85% of it describes me like it was squeezed out of my brain with an orange-juicer so I've kept it all this time.
> More importantly, I think just possibly psycho-babble has revealed a connection between "BAAD" and practical therapy because it seems to me there are several of us here who fit this (or other ADD w/o H descriptions discussed here) who have found effective, 'non-traditional' meds!!
>
> To summarize, here's my thought for the day:
> • that the docs usually interpret the symptoms as depression,
> • and predominantly prescribe SSRIs (e.g. ryan_s, KarenB, many more of us).
> • But if these don't work (blecchhkk!) then, whether you call it better Dx or better Rx there is good hope with one or more of:
> Adderall (KarenB and ryan_s - sorry to pick on you two again it's just the two I can remember now)
> or [1 from column A: sulpiride or amisulpride] - KarenB (albeit with amineptine), Andrewb, JohnL somewhat, still waiting on SLS?
> or [1 from column B: adrafinil or provigil] - JohnL, KarenB, Rick
> or (maybe) [1 from column C: Wellbutrin or Reboxetine] - I think Andrewb
>
> This seems underwhelming, now that I've written it. Obvious stuff maybe. Except it still seems to me that the usual pattern of treatment is susceptible to going off track. Depending on how you look at it, that could be due to an over-tendency to diagnose depression instead of other things, or an under-tendency to utilize certain medications.
>
> peace and health,
>
> S.D.
Posted by S.D. on July 16, 2000, at 0:04:13
In reply to Re: Significance of BAAD/ADD-H/dysthymia? » S.D., posted by Sara T on July 15, 2000, at 21:57:38
>the childcare and parenting section of Barnes & >Nobles, two or three books about ADHD/ADD w/o H.
>So someone is doing research there.
>
> I did feel rejected that you didn't add me to your list of ADDers who post here. (sniff, sniff)
>
> Sara T.Mea culpa, Sara T. I've been keeping an informal list of psychobabblers that I've noticed I 'connect with' symptom-wise. Now you're at the top of the list! (doesn't it make you feel special?)
That's great to hear that there's more information out there. I'll bet those books were published in the last couple of years because I could never find anything back in '95-'97.
peace and health (ADDled though we may be),
S.D.
Posted by AndrewB on July 16, 2000, at 9:42:23
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
S.D.,
Looks like I'm BAAD to the bone! I didn't even consder myself as having symptoms of ADD until this week but I fit the BAAD criteria to a t. What an eye opener.
Thanks for reprinting this BAAD scale and thanks for keeping track of those of us with similar symptoms (I would put JohnL and Scott in a different grouping though.).
I feel we have been able to exchange a lot of great information and experiences lately. I'm excited with the thought that more is to follow.
Anyone else who has BAAD along with either dysthymia or atypical depression chime in here and be counted. I've also got social anxiety related to negative thoughts about myself and I have a Chronic Fatigue like thing where (unmedicated) I get tired, sore and foggy headed for about 3 days after exercise. Anyone else share these symptoms also?
AndrewB
Posted by CarolAnn on July 16, 2000, at 10:26:41
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by AndrewB on July 16, 2000, at 9:42:23
The only non-match I could see is the tendancy to hyper-focus. I do this when involved in good fiction or television. Other then that the whole thing is right on target for my ADD, especially the low energy, lack of motivation aspects!
I always new I had a lot of this stuff going on, it's nice to know it has a name and is an actual disorder. I know that a lot of my self-esteem problems stem from the fact that all through my childhood, I just thought I had some kind of weird personality defect. I really wonder how my life would be different, if I had been diagnosed and treated way back then. At the very least, I'd have known that none of it was my fault. CarolAnn
Posted by SadSuzie on July 16, 2000, at 13:09:37
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by AndrewB on July 16, 2000, at 9:42:23
Andrew
I can't believe you posted about the CF symptoms! I had been doing much better in that area, for some unknown reason, and then woke up this morning with pain throughout my body and only just now made it out of bed. Andrew, our symptoms (and many others on this board)are so similar it is uncanny.
It would be interesting to see a "show of hands" on here of how many of us fit the "BAAD to the bone" profile.
ss
> S.D.,
>
> Looks like I'm BAAD to the bone! I didn't even consder myself as having symptoms of ADD until this week but I fit the BAAD criteria to a t. What an eye opener.
>
> Thanks for reprinting this BAAD scale and thanks for keeping track of those of us with similar symptoms (I would put JohnL and Scott in a different grouping though.).
>
> I feel we have been able to exchange a lot of great information and experiences lately. I'm excited with the thought that more is to follow.
>
> Anyone else who has BAAD along with either dysthymia or atypical depression chime in here and be counted. I've also got social anxiety related to negative thoughts about myself and I have a Chronic Fatigue like thing where (unmedicated) I get tired, sore and foggy headed for about 3 days after exercise. Anyone else share these symptoms also?
>
> AndrewB
Posted by noa on July 17, 2000, at 6:52:04
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
I have seen the Brown scale, and it seems to be a better questionaire for non-hyperactive add than the more commonly used questionaire, the Conners.
Posted by noa on July 17, 2000, at 7:00:28
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
As I read the items in this scale, though, I am aware of how much overlap there is with anxiety and depression. I think that many of these symptoms could be attributed to anxiety or depression.
Keep in mind, too, tho, that the dx of add (considered a developmental disorder) means signs appearing prior to age 7.
Not that it means that if I have these symptoms due to my anxiety and depression I don't have a problem with attention deficit. I think that the brain process might be similar. Someday we'll find out, I am sure. And often, the therapeutic approach, both medical and psychological, needs to be the same, or at least overlapping.
Posted by Cybil on July 17, 2000, at 10:52:30
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by noa on July 17, 2000, at 7:00:28
Hello previous posters to this thread (SaraT, S.D., AndrewB, CarolAnn, SadSuzie, Noa)
I think you may be able to count me in as an undiagnosed ADDw/o 'er. Subsequent to some replies on a previous post, I explored stimulant augmentation to my Effexor XR 150 dose. It was in doing this that I looked into the possibility of ADD without hyperactivity: it seemed to explain a lot of my symptoms, although in keeping with Noa's point, I am not completely sold on it as my diagnosis because I did very well in school (although high IQ can mask ADDw/o for quite a while) and the SRRI's do seem to help me quite a bit.
One great site is well maintained full-time by "Bob", an ADD'er who'd previously done Bob's Little Corner of the Web. It has lots of good links, one of which is ADDmirable Women, a great site with an egroup I've joined:http://add.about.com/health/add
It was through ADDmirable Women's site that I found out about Sari Solden's book, "Women with Attention Deficit Disorder", subtitled "Embracing disorganization at home and in the workplace". Very interesting book, highly recommend if you think ADDw/o may fit you. (CarolAnn, a sidenote: in the book and in the egroup's postings, the capacity for intense hyperfocus seems to be a hallmark for these women, the only problem being consistency and duration :)
My apprehension with this whole ADDw/o path is what to do next. It seems like neuropsychological testing for ADD is very expensive and not even always accurate, especially for ADDw/o'ers. I'm very scared about starting stimulants, and it doesn't even seem like how you respond to them provides a certain diagnosis (i.e., I get calm and focused instead of jittery and wired, I therefore have ADDw/o). I know they're also used in AD therapy without an ADD diagnosis--I'm really concerned about tolerance, withdrawl effects if/when I go off them (weight gain, etc.). My boyfriend is well read on AD's and meds (he's on Prozac 20mg for anxiety) and argues that EVERYONE would feel better on stimulants. He also said that once I start taking them I'll never want to stop. I also got very anxious (panic-attacky and insomniac) when I tried Wellbutrin [300 mg, divided doses] last Fall.
Any advice?
Thanks,
Cybil
Posted by MB on July 17, 2000, at 12:19:06
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
The personality traits on the Brown Scale, but for a few, are mine, but docs have ruled out ADD: I both passed the TOVA, and had a bad reaction to Ritilin (made me anxious and scattered). Is AAD different than ADD. Can you have it and not have ADD? What other causes could produce a personality profile like that on the Brown Scale? Avoidant personality, maybe?
MB
Posted by Libby on July 17, 2000, at 12:32:08
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE » noa, posted by Cybil on July 17, 2000, at 10:52:30
> My apprehension with this whole ADDw/o path is what to do next. It seems like neuropsychological testing for ADD is very expensive and not even always accurate, especially for ADDw/o'ers. I'm very scared about starting stimulants, and it doesn't even seem like how you respond to them provides a certain diagnosis (i.e., I get calm and focused instead of jittery and wired, I therefore have ADDw/o). I know they're also used in AD therapy without an ADD diagnosis--I'm really concerned about tolerance, withdrawl effects if/when I go off them (weight gain, etc.). My boyfriend is well read on AD's and meds (he's on Prozac 20mg for anxiety) and argues that EVERYONE would feel better on stimulants.He also said that once I start taking them I'll never want to stop.<
This is ceratinly a concern of mine. However, if taking Ritalin for the rest of my life is the price I must pay for the level of functioning , the sense of calm, and the clear-headedness I've experienced, I'm willing. My productivity has improved so much in just a couple of weeks that my bosses and family have remarked on it. That's a pretty good sign if you keep in mind that I was on the verge of having to accept disability because I couldn't function at work.
Incidentally, there is one intangible benefit I have gotten from an ADD diagnosis I'd like to share... It has given me a new sense of direction in my therapy. Whether I have ADD or not, or whether anyone has ADD or not, it is a fact that I have been exceptionally impulsive, distractable, and moody for almost my entire life. That particular set of attributes has been reflected in my behavior for years...and those behaviors have caused me lots of problems. Rather than looking for the myseterious and ellusive psychological causes of my problems, I am now focused on correcting problem behaviors and developing certain cognitive skills I now realize I failed to develop along the way.
Just my thoughts....
L.
Posted by Renee N on July 17, 2000, at 13:02:22
In reply to BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by S.D. on July 15, 2000, at 19:51:42
I was diagnosed with ADHD, but none of the meds really helped my main problem of forgetfulness. The pdoc thought I also had depression and anxiety. I don't care too much about labels at this point. I just want help to get my memory to a point of not constantly embarrassing myself or putting myself and/or others in danger. (I forget to turn off the stove, iron, and coffeemaker.) I fit the BAAD profile with the following exceptions: I am not hard to awaken. I am not easily irritated. I used to be able to memorize and recall facts easily for tests. The info would soon fade away after being tested.
I'm not sure about the "loner among peers". I am very social when around people, but have no friends. I can't seem to get past the aquaintance(sp?) stage.
QUESTION-- What the heck are they talking about when they say problems of active recall of "aims"? I understand active recall. By aims do they mean goals??? Renee N
Posted by S.D. on July 17, 2000, at 15:48:13
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE, posted by noa on July 17, 2000, at 6:52:04
As has been said by various of us in this and other threads, certain symptoms cross boundaries between different disorders and even when we can make additional distinctions (like early-age onset for ADD), these don't necessarily indicate different courses of treatment.
The way I think of it, these diagnoses are just kinds of labels (and Dr. Brown's "AAD" was just a label he made up, as far as I know, and not a medical diagnosis at all.) And I evaluate a label, (or a suggestion or criticism in my life) by asking myself "does it suggest a course of action?".
I think a medical diagnosis is supposed to do so, by having a corrosponding established procedure or 'algorithm'. By this standard, some diagnoses don't seem to me to hold up very well.
A demonstration of that would be that any one of a number of psychiatric illnesses/disorders is sometimes successfully treated by drugs that are classified by using the name of a *different* diagnosis. For example an "Anti-Epileptic Drug" used as a mood-stabilizer to treat "Bipolar disorder", or an "antipsychotic" med used to treat "dysthymia".
peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by michael on July 18, 2000, at 18:43:40
In reply to Re: BROWN ATTENTION-ACTIVATION DISORDER (BAAD) SCALE » noa, posted by Cybil on July 17, 2000, at 10:52:30
My boyfriend is well read on AD's and meds (he's on Prozac 20mg for anxiety) and argues that EVERYONE would feel better on stimulants. He also said that once I start taking them I'll never want to stop. I also got very anxious (panic-attacky and insomniac) when I tried Wellbutrin [300 mg, divided doses] last Fall.
>
> Any advice?As far as wanting to take them for the rest of your life because they make you feel better... He implies that's a bad thing. Does that apply to his prozac also?
I don't mean to be too glib, addiction is certainly something to keep in mind, but so is feeling well/healthy. michael
This is the end of the thread.
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