![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:01:12
This paper got me thinking. go to http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/CNO/2000/APA/Story.cfm?story_id=1170
Ok. A reality check. Listen to the news and it seems crime is on a big upswing. It is not; crime rates have been stable for some time. The rate of crime reported in the media has gone up due to cutting edge electronic
news gathering like CNN. The prisons fill up because we are better at the process of locking people up. No bleeding heart here, for society to run some things have to be wrong. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time and keep making those license plates, baby !So if crime is stable, isn't it time to start working on it's roots ? This paper makes it clear how crimals start. We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
james
Posted by kazoo on July 11, 2000, at 23:27:38
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:05:33
> We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
^^^^^^^
But the fruit don't fall far from the tree.
I resent your reference to inmates making license plates - they don't.
kazoo
Posted by Cass on July 12, 2000, at 0:24:14
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by kazoo on July 11, 2000, at 23:27:38
> > We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
>
I think that the root of the problem is child abuse and neglect. Is this what you mean? I could use a little clarification on your statement. I think we need resources to help abused and neglected kids, and we need to lock up child abusers. I don't think it matters if the abuser was also an abused child. If an abused child grows up to repeat the history, they should be held accountable. One of the main reasons being that people do not have to have children. It's a choice. If a person has been abused in the past, and they don't think that they can handle children, no one forces them to have children. However, I do think we need more social programs emphasizing that if a person chooses to have children, they will be held accountable for abuse and neglect. We have a lot of child abuse awareness out there, but I still think that very few people are really willing to report it.
Posted by dj on July 12, 2000, at 0:41:32
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:01:12
> So if crime is stable, isn't it time to start working on it's roots ? This paper makes it clear how crimals start. We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
>Don't have time to read the referenced paper right now. However, having worked on an Inquiry into Policing in British Columbia back in 1993, I know how true what you noted is and that in Canada the rates have been dropping for some time, despite misguided media hsyteria and distortion of the degree and impacts of the issue. Fear sells, as a former news anchor here recently pointed out, and that's what drives much of this programming - simplistic mindsets.
There is a movement called the Culutral Environment Movement (CEM at www.cemnet.com or org, I belive) which focuses on dealing with the media distortions and how they affect our mass perceptions and re-actions and our society, never mind distorting stress levels for some, grieviously.
Dealing with kids is very important but just as important is dealing with the mindset that creates and perpetuates this distorted and dangerously hysteria producing coverage.
Media literacy training is one way to deal with this dis-ease, which in your country results in, amongst other things one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. Which is not necessarily an effective systemic coping mechanism in the long term, these breeding grounds for reinforcing criminal links and instincts in those who are often societally disadvanteged in the extreme, from the get go...
Namste!
dj
Posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 0:56:33
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by Cass on July 12, 2000, at 0:24:14
> > > We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
> >
> I think that the root of the problem is child abuse and neglect. Is this what you meanJames.....
Did you read the web page I mentioned? Yes, that is what I mean.
james
Posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 1:03:01
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by kazoo on July 11, 2000, at 23:27:38
> But the fruit don't fall far from the tree.
>
> I resent your reference to inmates making license plates - they don't.
>
> kazooJames here....
Again, please look at the web page so you understand the context. " Making license plates" is , of course, a joke. Beyond the surface it is a symbol for the truth of prison, mindless tasks with little rahabilitation going on.
james
Posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 1:08:53
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by Cass on July 12, 2000, at 0:24:14
> > > We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
> >
> I think that the root of the problem is child abuse and neglect. Is this what you mean?James here...
To quote the page I mentioned, 2nd to last paragraph, last sentence:
"The child treats the world the way the world treats the child."
j
Posted by PattyG on July 12, 2000, at 10:32:08
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 1:08:53
James here...
To quote the page I mentioned, 2nd to last paragraph, last sentence:
"The child treats the world the way the world treats the child."
///Thank you for clarifying a bit. I was getting some ruffled feathers:) It's a throw-away society and that, unfortunately, includes a lot of children. There is also a tremendous amount of alcohol and drug abuse during what should be the prenatal nurturing time. Sigh. A viscious cycle. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effect continue to be the leading factors in mental retardation and related disorders (which also includes some horrific behavior.) Sigh. And I believe I'm correct in that our country now has the dubious distinction of wharehousing (imprisoning) the most people anywhere in the world. Sigh. "If the jail population continues to grow at the current rate, by the year 2053, the U.S. will have more people in jail than out." Source: Camille Gear & David Lewis, "Locking up the Drug Problem: Criminal and Legal Responses to Drug Addiction", Center for Alcohol Addiction Studies, Brown University, 1995.
The National Mental Health Assoc. sites the emergence of a consistent picture regarding our youth and mental disorders of those in the juvenile justice system. The high rates of mental disorders include substance abuse disorders and multiple co-occurring diagnoses. A representative sample of 95 public and private juvenile facilities revealed that 73% of the children reported mental health problems during screening. Of those, 57% had previously received treatment for mental health problems.
Please tell me where I might access the webpage to which you were referring!
PattyG
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 15:43:26
In reply to True crimes and media and societal non-sense..., posted by dj on July 12, 2000, at 0:41:32
Hi STJAMES,
I live in Ontario. My son was involved with a couple of other kids in stealing something in the school hall after school. We made him responsible for getting his own lawyer, etc. I did accompany him to his course appearances. Even though I asked that he be forced into drug rehab., because it was his FIRST OFFENCE the court wouldn't even consider charging him. He got what's called "Alternative Measures". His assignment consisted of writing a letter of apology, writing an 800 word essay "how having a criminal record would affect my future life", and paying 1/3 of the value of the non-returned items that were stolen from the person. His assignment was due May 17th. He has done NONE of it. And guess what's happened????? You got it - NOTHING. What does that teach a kid?? What does it say about the justice system, the law system, the Young Offenders Act, and being held accountable for one's actions or inactions?
And now, the Ontario government wants to make parents financially responsible for the damage that their adolescents do!! How does THAT hold young people accountable for what they have done? It makes me sick.
Having been at court with my son various times in the back & forthing of the court system I've seen other kids getting a slap on the wrist. They get consequences (curfew, etc.) & if the don't obey them they get put on "Probation" for 6 months for example. If they break their "Probation" they get a 9 months added on, etc. etc. The legal system just becomes a joke. I've seen young people waiting up at the court, standing outside smoking & spitting on the sidewalk & joking about "hey what are YOU here for - heh heh heh".
I don't know what the answer to it all is. I do know that the way things are right now, in Ontario at least, I fear to think what's going to happen.
Kath
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 15:45:49
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence / Adam had 'em, posted by kazoo on July 11, 2000, at 23:27:38
Hi Kazoo - What do you mean by "but the fruit don't fall far from the tree." ?
Kath
> > We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
>
> ^^^^^^^
>
> But the fruit don't fall far from the tree.
>
> I resent your reference to inmates making license plates - they don't.
>
> kazoo
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 15:49:24
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:05:33
Hi StJames - I didn't read this paper, but I answered you just a little way up the page as to my own experience with the legal system etc. in Ontario, Canada. It may have absolutely nothing to do with the type of thing you had in mind.
Kath
> This paper got me thinking. go to http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/CNO/2000/APA/Story.cfm?story_id=1170
>
> Ok. A reality check. Listen to the news and it seems crime is on a big upswing. It is not; crime rates have been stable for some time. The rate of crime reported in the media has gone up due to cutting edge electronic
> news gathering like CNN. The prisons fill up because we are better at the process of locking people up. No bleeding heart here, for society to run some things have to be wrong. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time and keep making those license plates, baby !
>
> So if crime is stable, isn't it time to start working on it's roots ? This paper makes it clear how crimals start. We need to direct resources like crazy to the root of this problem, the kids.
>
>
> james
Posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 18:10:17
In reply to Crime/youth, posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 15:43:26
> And now, the Ontario government wants to make parents financially responsible for the damage that their adolescents do!! How does THAT hold young people accountable for what they have done? It makes me sick.
>James here....
Here in the states the parents are financially responsible for what their kids do. Minors cannot enter into contract, ect.
james
james
Posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 20:54:16
In reply to Re: Crime/youth, posted by stjames on July 12, 2000, at 18:10:17
> > And now, the Ontario government wants to make parents financially responsible for the damage that their adolescents do!! How does THAT hold young people accountable for what they have done? It makes me sick.
> >
>
> James here....
>
> Here in the states the parents are financially responsible for what their kids do. Minors cannot enter into contract, ect.
>
> jamesHi James - They can't enter into a contract here either until 18, but they're talking about a situation that could turn out to be like this: The kid's 16, or 17 & is being a pain in the butt (say even MORE than my kid is being). His parents say he can't live in the home any more. The kid knows there's NO CHANCE of getting back (unlike my kid - he might at some point be allowed to & he probably knows that). Well, say this kid was really bad news. He can go out and smash all the windows in a huge supermarket for example. What our government (& alot of parents who don't have problem-kids & who think it's the parents' faults that kids get into trouble) want is to be able to hold the parents financially responsible for damage caused by the kids. I believe they say "if the parents' don't exhibit proper control over the child" or some such thing.
I'll try to read that article sometime. Thanks for caring about kids and about violence, etc. These are important things.
:-) Kath
Posted by kazoo on July 12, 2000, at 23:37:34
In reply to Question » kazoo, posted by Kath on July 12, 2000, at 15:45:49
> Hi Kazoo - What do you mean by "but the fruit don't fall far from the tree." ?
> Kath^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Greetings to Kath:The expression is an extended metaphor meaning children ("fruit") imitate and learn
from their parents (the "tree"), in both the positive and negative.If change is needed in children today, then it would be judicious to start with the parents
first."Spare the rod, spoil the child" could land you in jail today if taken to the extreme, so what's
the answer? There's nothing like starting all over, and using common sense.Also, education is the key. Spiritual growth is another within the parameters of a secular society.
The bane of society? Television, specifically the FOX network.
This stuff is so axiomatic ... pardon my soap box.
kazoo
Posted by paul on July 12, 2000, at 23:57:53
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:01:12
james-
dont have time to read the paper but i think you're a bit off base. criminality is a learned behavior and many children learn it in the absence of healthier, parentally-provided substitutes. is not the true first step a combining off efforts of parental education awa child education to alternatives to crime? sticking it all on children's backs is unfair. there's a mighty pile of unwell adults out there just a-passin' thier lack of health onto thier children-and what are the kids supposed to do? not only don't they know the answer, they don't even know the question!
brought to you by an older version of just such a child-----
pcl
Posted by stjames on July 13, 2000, at 0:59:43
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by paul on July 12, 2000, at 23:57:53
> james-
> dont have time to read the paper but i think you're a bit off base.James here....
Really getting tired of this. If you can;t go to a web page read what I am saying you totally
miss what I am saying. This is a waste of my time
if you are not willing to possess all the facts b4 you assume.Paul, we agree on the same %^$^%$*%^$^$ points. You have assumed I think it is the childrens fault. I never said that because I don't do blame and fault, ever.There is no point. I'm pagen, dammit, it is aginst my religion ! Any cogent person knows it is a process, the parents did it and so did the parents parents, et el. The resources need to be directed at the kids because kids have the greatest potential to change. Gine the kids attention now and lives are not trashed.
Please don't assume thing from my posts. Cass was kind enough to ask the very same question but not assume and I posted this from the #&^$))&$ web site I mentioned:
"The child treats the world the way the world treats the child."
This place pisses me off when the noise to signal ratio is so high.
Posted by paul on July 13, 2000, at 2:15:50
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 13, 2000, at 0:59:43
sorry to have raised your ire-at least we agree!! i was responding to what you wrote which seemed a bit incomplete. i'll look at the papper when i git time. no sense gittin yer jodphurs in a knot. isn't that agin pagan standards too?
pcl
Posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 8:54:37
In reply to Re: Question, posted by kazoo on July 12, 2000, at 23:37:34
> > Hi Kazoo - What do you mean by "but the fruit don't fall far from the tree." ?
> > Kath
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Greetings to Kath:
>
> The expression is an extended metaphor meaning children ("fruit") imitate and learn
> from their parents (the "tree"), in both the positive and negative.
>
> If change is needed in children today, then it would be judicious to start with the parents
> first.
>
> "Spare the rod, spoil the child" could land you in jail today if taken to the extreme, so what's
> the answer? There's nothing like starting all over, and using common sense.
>
> Also, education is the key. Spiritual growth is another within the parameters of a secular society.
>
> The bane of society? Television, specifically the FOX network.
>
> This stuff is so axiomatic ... pardon my soap box.
>
> kazooHi kazoo - I thought that's what you meant, and I'm calmer now, but as we're having major problems with our 16-yr-old son I'm maybe over-sensitive here. There are many factors that affect how kids "turn out". I think good parenting is very important and I think it would have been better if I'd provided a bit more structure & certainly more expectations. I sure taught him what was right & what was wrong. It's all too easy to simply "Blame The Parents". And hold them responsible for their children's actions. I think I felt pretty defensive & felt that you were saying "it's always ALL the fault of the parents - just look to them & you'll see why the kids are doing this". In some cases I think that's probably true, but, guess what?? Not always. (Sorry for being grouchy about this, but it's a pretty sensitive area for me right now.)
Thx for listening :-)
A sort of disgruntled Kath
Posted by PattyG on July 13, 2000, at 21:15:33
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:05:33
"With the heightened media coverage of teenage suicide and homicide, especially at schools,we would be much wiser if we took it upon ourselves to identify these children as early as possible and invest in interventions that offer
structured discipline, support, education, and medical care to the children and their families -- instead of assigning blame and trying or punishing them as adults."//Great article, James. However, I have to say that many parents find it frustrating that the MH community has such a hang up diagnosing teen-agers with a PD. Big deal. No one wants to have their personality "attacked ," but if we focus on treatment, there doesn't have to be such a problem. The article states that most of the PD traits fade with age and especially BPD. I'm wondering if that can't be said of most brain disorders? Especially the mood disorders? I can understand the reluctance to Dx a kid as BPD since a lot of the diagnostic criteria merely matches the actions of some kids being temporary butt heads. But when a child has had problems most of their life or there's a sudden onset of far out behavior, then I would think the PD's could be considered.
I also think there's way too much emphasis placed on the theory of abuse with regard to BPD, in particular. I think that, in time, we'll find there has been a lot of false reporting. Children who come from loving and caring families can and do have personality disorders, etc. I understand Kath's feelings of defensiveness:) I'm a parent and my "kid" has BPD as well as major depression. I DIDN'T DO IT!! Reminds me of the joke about the graffiti on the wall in the men's restroom. One fellow had written: "My mother made me a homosexual." To which another responded: "If I get some yarn, will she make me one too?"
Most of us are dancing as fast as we can!
PattyG
Posted by MisterB on July 14, 2000, at 18:40:08
In reply to Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by stjames on July 11, 2000, at 23:01:12
Some thoughts on youth, violence, crime, misperceptions and prevention:
* Prisoners do make license plates, at least in some institutions. Not all prisoners make license plates. Most prisoners don't make license plates. Federal prison industries enjoy priority access to federal contracts, resulting in what some consider to be unfair competition against private industry. According to a recent network report, license plate shop workers are among the highest paid of prison shop workers.
* Parents are not consistently liable for juvenile behavior in the US. In no case are parents criminally liable, because US law is built on a doctrine of individuals being responsible for their own criminal behavior. In some court districts, and in some states, parents are held civilly liable for their kids' actions. Not all states and districts hold parents civilly liable, and the range of behaviors for which parents are held civilly liable varies.
In some jurisdictions, authorities are reluctant to seek civil judgments against parents because to do so would take money from families who otherwise need the money to support their children. In other cases, the chances of collecting civil judgements from impoverished families are slim. I am not talking here about the way it should be, I am just relating the way things are. Civil liablity is not consistent from state to state.
* Social science texts published in 1998 and 1999 document a trend toward an increase in juvenile crime worldwide in areas where convergence of international cultures displace traditional authority structures. In these areas, when franchise businesses and access to international credit institutions replace longstanding community economic networks and family businesses, there is a trend toward increased domestic violence, family instability, juvenile crime and other crime.
This does not neccessarily contradict recent studies such as the Baltimore study that documented little increase in crime in the same US metropolitan areas where media reports seemed to indicated an increase in crime. The Boston study revealed some important trends and correlations, but also glossed over some equally disturbing trends. Homicide is rising among young African American males nationwide, though the homicide rate among older African American men has recently declined.
Thought there is an overall decline in violent crime and property crimes there is an increase of crime is some areas. The trend has been a spread high crime areas, so more communities seem to include areas that are disproportionally affected by high crime rates. These communities are more often home to African Americans or other minority ethnic groups, and are universally home to low income individuals. The trend is a growing separation between rich and poor, with the poor affected by higher crime rates and the rich enjoying lower crime rates.
When positing a decrease in crime, it is important to recall that we are talking about prosecuted crimes. Not one person has been jailed in almost 30 years for violation of federal environmental laws and few have been jailed for violation of workplace safety laws, though violations of these laws have resulted in 1,000s of deaths. Federal prosecution dollars are not dedicated to enforcing these health and safety laws, and violations of those laws are more likely to injure or kill low income workers or residnets of low income neighborhoods.
Decreasing crime rates must be considered in light of these patterns, the documented decrease has been most often been attributed to a sustained growth economy for almost two decades, and to in increasing number of people being held in prison for a longer period of time. US prison population, per capita, is the highest of any nation in the world. As prisoners are released, as many will eventually be, many of those incarcerated for non-violent crimes, non-property crimes will return to communities to teach the harsh culture of personal and sexual abuse that is a pervasive element of prison life.
* Where I live and work, an effort has been implemented to fund early intervention into juvenile crime. It is likely to early to measure results of the effort. Elements of apparently successful prevention programs include providing families, schools, police, and juvenile authorities access to family resources and encouraging use of these resources before a juveniles gets into trouble. The program focuses on intervening in the lives of youths when they are identifies as being at risk, rather than after scrapes with the law make thier status obvious.
Other elements of the reformers' prevention program include peer programs, including peer courts and peer teams who work at schools to intervene in potentially violent situations, teaching conflict resolution skills they were taught at retreats and seminars. Other elements of the reforms include diversion programs, that allow juveniles accused of non-violent crimes an opportunity to participate in non-judicial sanctions along with counseling for the individual, and if appropriate, for the family.
* The increase in school shootings is a real phenomenon, and not an illusion resulting from increased media reporting of incidents. The same is apparently true for the increase in workplace shootings. Many of the mass shootings have involved individuals who had recently been prescribed newly developed SSRIs. The increase in school shootings followed the certification of SSRIs for adminsitration to youths.The increase in school and workplace shootings could potentially be seen as a product of copy-cat behavior, fueled by media reporting, but if that is so, other mediums are also providing forums that encourage new behavior patterns. The Internet was particularly implicated in the Columbine shooting, perhaps allowing the perpetrators to develop their idea by posting their intentions on a web site and returning day after day to see their plans. Web use might allow increased social isolation, and to selective socialization among violence prone individuals.
While media sources could be indicted as playing causal roles in violence, others argue that media infiltrates homes to provide new approaches to problem solving, tolerance and acceptance. We could debate whether violent or conflict resolution is the majority product of television, but we would all probably agree that some programming provides social and scientific learing opportunities.
Music could be implicated in youth violence, but when Alice Cooper sang "schools been blow to peices," and the song went to the top of the charts, no parallel increase in school violence was documented. But still, the increase could be related to the pervasiveniss of agressive lyrics, beats, instrumentation, intonation and volume, reproduced over increasingly low cost, transportable and accurate sound equipment.
School violence also could be a product of larger schools, where each individual is less likely to enjoy personal interaction with mature role models, and where larger groups of social outcasts can harbor development of more extreme individual members.
* The correlation of abuse and borderline personality disorder might be, as one writer suggested, flawed. But the correlation of childhood abuse and the practice violent behavior is well recognized by criminologists and law enforcement executives. The psychological classification of personality disorder might not be the best instrument for tracking sociological patterns of learned violent behavior.
_________________________________________________
These are just some thoughts. I write as if it is all true, but for this forum, I don't have the time to site sources, so the information is somewhat unreliable. I don't mean to propose all of these things as absolutes, but rather as a collection of trends and suggestions I have seen reported in reliable sources, including popular media, professional journals and electronic networks. Obviously my selection of ideas reflects my opinions, but for the most part, I am relating opions and findings of other reliable sources. I admit, I am a working member of the media, but from a unusually low economic strata among my media peers, and with a healthy background in social advocacy.There is plenty of fear mongering among journalists and editors, but that is not why I hard sell some of my courtroom reports. I push crime news as community news so people will understand the issues involved. I also report economic trends, and enjoy frequent feature assignment that allow me to tell "good news".
Posted by paul on July 14, 2000, at 23:51:00
In reply to Re: Question » kazoo, posted by Kath on July 13, 2000, at 8:54:37
kazoo-
theres another metaphor in the "tired/old" class that works here also in a modified form. you can lead a horse to water. then what you got? well, you gots a HORSE, and you gots WATER. thasall! once a child discovers thier own bit of free will, all the teaching, good, bad, or otherwise has one hell of a battle to fight if its going to take precedence over the MYRIAD experiences awaiting a naive child. its NEVER just the child or just the parents. is's one o dem sticky kweschunz i don't have to answer. i pray for/admire those who do. if i have a kid i'll feed him hotdogs and gravy and read e.e. cummings to him while he listens to derek bailey play the guitar. then, when he's 35, i'd let him out of the house for 5 minutes. maybe.
p(c(l))
Posted by kazoo on July 15, 2000, at 0:30:35
In reply to Re: Question » Kath, posted by paul on July 14, 2000, at 23:51:00
> p(c(l)
^^^^^^^^
What was the question again?
kazoo
Posted by PattyG on July 15, 2000, at 11:35:18
In reply to Re: Orgins of crime and adolescence , posted by MisterB on July 14, 2000, at 18:40:08
//Great dissertation!
According to a recent network report,
license plate shop workers are among the highest paid of prison shop workers.///I would imagine those inmates are turning over a good deal of their salary for their board and keep. Inmates are normally limited on the amount of money they can spend - not sure on the amount of money that can be deposited in their commissary accounts. I read an article recently about inmates making yo-yo's.......yes, they're earning a fair wage, but they have to use that pay to reinburse the system for their expenses. That's fine with me. Just clarifying that it's doubtful anyone is getting rich while imprisoned.
* The increase in school shootings is a real phenomenon, and not an illusion resulting from increased media
reporting of incidents. The same is apparently true for the increase in workplace shootings. Many of the mass
shootings have involved individuals who had recently been prescribed newly developed SSRIs. The increase in school shootings followed the certification of SSRIs for adminsitration to youths.///I would sure hesitate to blame the prescribing of SSRI's on recent trend in violence. One has to ask the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" To my way of thinking, something was obviously going on with these kids *before* the psychotropic meds were recommended.
While media sources could be indicted as playing causal roles in violence, others argue that media infiltrates homes to provide new approaches to problem solving, tolerance and acceptance. We could debate whether violent or conflict resolution is the majority product of television, but we would all probably agree that some programming provides social and scientific learing opportunities.///I doubt we need to point the finger at any one "cause" - but I do think the televised overkill approach can't be helpful. All "official reports" (supposedly) reveal that kids used to kill more frequently than in current times. If so, I'd like some facts. Give me names and places - I just don't think I believe that. I definitely feel the "entertainment industry" as a whole has greatly contributed to the downfall of our children. Nothing is sacred anymore. And speaking of sacred............that might be another avenue to explore.
* The correlation of abuse and borderline personality disorder might be, as one writer suggested, flawed. But the correlation of childhood abuse and the practice violent behavior is well recognized by criminologists and law
enforcement executives. The psychological classification of personality disorder might not be the best instrument for tracking sociological patterns of learned violent behavior._///I agree.
There is plenty of fear mongering among journalists and editors, but that is not why I hard sell some of my
courtroom reports. I push crime news as community news so people will understand the issues involved. I also report economic trends, and enjoy frequent feature assignment that allow me to tell "good news".///I'm glad to hear you're spreading the good news:) I've always said that part of our problem is the focus on the bad news. Perhaps we should try catching a kid at being good as opposed to being bad. Sometimes the news media have more time and space for the trouble-makers than the do-gooders.
PattyG
Posted by Kath on July 15, 2000, at 15:35:26
In reply to Re: Question » Kath, posted by paul on July 14, 2000, at 23:51:00
Hi Paul - I thought I'd sent you a post but guess I didn't "hit the button". I felt really supported by your post. Hey - you'd be a great parent, but guess what - I have a sneaky little feeling you'd want your kid out for that 5 minutes just a bit earlier than 35! :-)
Like your style.Have a good day. Kath
> theres another metaphor in the "tired/old" class that works here also in a modified form. you can lead a horse to water. then what you got? well, you gots a HORSE, and you gots WATER. thasall! once a child discovers thier own bit of free will, all the teaching, good, bad, or otherwise has one hell of a battle to fight if its going to take precedence over the MYRIAD experiences awaiting a naive child. its NEVER just the child or just the parents. is's one o dem sticky kweschunz i don't have to answer. i pray for/admire those who do. if i have a kid i'll feed him hotdogs and gravy and read e.e. cummings to him while he listens to derek bailey play the guitar. then, when he's 35, i'd let him out of the house for 5 minutes. maybe.
> p(c(l))
Posted by Kath on July 15, 2000, at 15:37:14
In reply to Re: Question, posted by kazoo on July 15, 2000, at 0:30:35
Hi Kazoo - I just told Paul I liked his style.
I like this post also. Hope you're having a good weekend.Take care, Kath :-)
> > p(c(l)
>
> ^^^^^^^^
>
> What was the question again?
> kazoo
This is the end of the thread.
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