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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cass on June 2, 2000, at 23:49:50
I'm in love with my pdoc. I developed a crush on him after the first appointment. Now I've been seeing him for about 5 months, and I feel completely in love. I've heard of transference although I know little about it. What does it mean? What are its implications? In another way, I just want to forget psych terms and enjoy the feeling. We were talking about my self image, and he told me I was sexy. I was giddy for three days and had all kinds of sexual fantasies about him. Still am. I don't think he was trying to flirt though. Now I just can't get my mind off of him. I know probably a lot of you have felt this way. Did the feeling go away? I don't want the feeling to go away.
Posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 12:24:06
In reply to I'm in love with my pdoc., posted by Cass on June 2, 2000, at 23:49:50
It is not so unusual to have romantic feelings for your therapist or pdoc.
The word "Transference" can be used in several ways. One is a general reference to feelings the client has toward the therapist. The second way it is used, and more true to the original use of the term in psychoanalytic work, refers to the feelings a client develops toward the therapist that are projections of feelings they might have had toward other important figures in their lives, like parents, etc. The transference feelings can be helpful either way, if addressed appropriately by the therapist, to help understand how the client relates to people in close relationships, what needs they have, etc.
The thing that is so confusing about this phenomenon is that it is both "real" in the sense that you have real feelings for a real human being who is attending to your needs in an intimate and consistent way, and it is also "unreal" in some ways, in that you (and the therapist for that matter) are not free to act upon the feelings to develop a more multi-faceted relationship.
Boundaries are important. It can be a tricky thing to explore the feelings that come up toward the therapist in a useful way that leads to growth and healing, without stepping over the line. This is because there is a very real power differential in this relationship, and it would be tantamount to abuse if the therapist does not maintain appropriate boundaries.
Which brings me to a nagging question: Did he actually tell you that you were sexy, in that he finds you sexy? It is hard to assess how appropriate or inappropriate this would be, without knowing more about the context of the dialogue and the tone, etc. I can envision some instances where this would not be a violation of boundaries, such as if the client is sending sexual signals through the way she dresses, body language, etc, and has very little awareness of these signals, it might help to bring that to the client's awareness so she can "own" that part of herself, rather than send out messages that she is rather disconnected from.
On the other hand, I can imagine that having the therapist say that you are sexy is really unfair, because of the power such a statement packs, and its impact upon your feelings for him, given your vulnerability in this dynamic.
If the feelings feel good, enjoy them. Experiencing feelings might help you learn a lot about yourself, insight that might be helpful to you in your healing process. But take care of yourself, too.
Posted by Sara T on June 3, 2000, at 12:46:24
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. » Cass, posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 12:24:06
Cass,
There is a thread about "therapist relationships" of about three weeks or so ago. There are alot of postings on this issue.
Sara T.
Posted by Cass on June 3, 2000, at 14:13:52
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. » Cass, posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 12:24:06
Did he actually tell you that you were sexy, in that he finds you sexy? It is hard to assess how appropriate or inappropriate this would be, without knowing more about the context of the dialogue and the tone, etc. I can envision some instances where this would not be a violation of boundaries, such as if the client is sending sexual signals through the way she dresses, body language, etc, and has very little awareness of these signals, it might help to bring that to the client's awareness so she can "own" that part of herself, rather than send out messages that she is rather disconnected from.
Noa, we were on the subject of my ultra succesful sister who got more brains, better looks, good health... I was saying that I didn't get looks. Then he said that I was sexy and had a presence and what else did I need? It was the end of the appointment, and we resolved to continue the topic next time. Was his statement innapropriate? I'm not objective enough to discern that. I loved it, and I'm in love.
Posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 14:43:30
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc., posted by Cass on June 3, 2000, at 14:13:52
It sounds like perhaps he fell into the "trap" of wanting to reassure you, rather than to explore your perceptions of your sister's supposed better everything, which is really where the money is for real change. His reassuring you feels good in the moment, but how much does it help you to deal with the issue of your perceptions, real or not. I don't fault him too much, because I imagine that this is a trap that lots of therapists can easily fall into, especially at the end of a session. Perhaps you were emitting a need for reasurance and it tapped his desire to help you not feel so inadequate--especially to see you leave the session feeling inadequate. Perhaps you showed the need to be taken care of in this way, and he responded to it. It isn't terrible. But it is worth exploring more. I think the extent to which a therapist (unless it is a truly unskilled one) is vulnerable to responding to a client's subconscious wishes by gratifying them rather than exploring them can be a clue as to how strong those wishes and needs are. It sounds like your self-acceptance issues are powerful and the need for someone else to make you feel better about yourself in a way you cannot, perhaps that came across powerfully. And the strength of this dynamic might have been increased by it being the end of the session. What probably would help in therapy is for you to be allowed to sit with a need or wish or feeling without the therapist gratifying it, and that can be hard for a therapist to do (to say nothing of how hard it is for the client--been there!!!), I think. Don't you think it is human nature to want to reassure and soothe over hurts and needs? But in therapy, there has to be a balance between some soothing, and also not soothing, in service of exploration--where does this need come from, how do you usually cope with it, are your perceptions correct, how have your perceptions shaped the way you feel about yourself and your behavior and relationship patterns, etc. etc. Hopefully, this kind of work in therapy can help you to develop the internal capacity to soothe yourself, rather than needing others to do it for you. It takes time and hard work, but it can be done.
Unfortunately, this slip on the part of your therapist, though not a bad error, taps right into your vulnerability and reinforces the feelings you were already developing toward him. The good thing is that this slip can be explored and used in the therapy toward better understanding of you and your needs.
I realize that I am doing a lot of speculating here. I hope it does not offend you that I have done so. I just thought sharing my thoughts might help you. Please let me know honestly how this came across.
Posted by Todd on June 3, 2000, at 18:50:44
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc., posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 14:43:30
Hey, Noa. I agree with quite a few of the points you brought up in response to Cass. I shouldn't say I agree completely, rather, I agree that the points you brought up are valid and should be considered. But I wouldn't necessarily condemn the pdoc for making such a statement. As long as he is balancing the need to explore Cass's subconscious motives with the need to strengthen her self-image, I say "right on."
I think it's refreshing that a therapist or pdoc can show a warm and human side without always being so analytical. We are all human, and we all crave acceptance and validation. I am a very attractive man. Didn't always think so, though, and still don't feel as attractive as other people seem to find me. It was only after years and years of people telling me so that I finally believed what I was hearing. It was always so refreshing to hear that someone had a crush on me or found me to be handsome and sexy. Of course, I would always find out after the fact when it was too late to go for a relationship. haha. But what I am saying is, if Cass is sexy and has a strong presence, and she is sitting there saying that she isn't, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated. We all need to believe in ourselves and feel beautiful, and sometimes we need the reassurance that indeed we are.
So as long as the pdoc is staying within his professional boundaries, I feel it is entirely appropriate for him to make statements like that. And Cass, I know it feels wonderful. Swim in it for a while, but don't let yourself drown. Keep it in perspective, and let your light shine! Peace and love.
Posted by Cass on June 3, 2000, at 20:08:23
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc., posted by Noa on June 3, 2000, at 14:43:30
Perhaps you were emitting a need for reasurance and it tapped his desire to help you not feel so inadequate--especially to see you leave the session feeling inadequate. Perhaps you showed the need to be taken care of in this way, and he responded to it.
-->I didn't feel particularly needy despite the topic, but I don't know if I was emitting a need for reassurance or not. I actually felt quite motivated to change my life for the better. I want to think he meant what he said and wasn't just trying to boost my self esteem. He's not a shallow person. I know that. I don't think he says things that he doesn't mean. I feel that we have a raporte and have similarities in our personalities. For example, we both respect people who have strong moral convictions (not Jerry Falwell "moral") and are willing to put their popularity on the line for it. I'm not sure what my point is here. I guess I just feel the need to defend our connection.
I think the extent to which a therapist (unless it is a truly unskilled one) is vulnerable to responding to a client's subconscious wishes by gratifying them rather than exploring them can be a clue as to how strong those wishes and needs are. It sounds like your self-acceptance issues are powerful and the need for someone else to make you feel better about yourself in a way you cannot, perhaps that came across--->I like to think that I've overcome a lot of my self-acceptance issues, but I definitely have a ways to go. He's been a psychiatrist for a long, long time. I think he is very skilled. I appreciate your input, but I think I'm more confused than ever.
Posted by allisonm on June 4, 2000, at 13:50:49
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Cass on June 3, 2000, at 20:08:23
Cass, read Deborah Lott's book "In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists." Cindy W. recommended it a couple of weeks ago. I'm just finishing it. You'll find there are several chapters that deal directly with your situation.
Not really knowing the context of your pdoc's remark, and after reading Lott's book, to me your pdoc's remark feels inappropriate and you are experiencing a reaction that isn't helpful to your therapy. In fact, if he reverses or makes some offhand remark that you interpret differently, you may end up feeling worse than when you started. This is because therapists have a very large amount of power in a therapeutic relationship. Things he says will have more impact on you than what others say because you have put your trust in this person and because you have told this person things that you probably have never told anyone else.
Take care.
Posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 13:56:19
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Cass on June 3, 2000, at 20:08:23
Cass, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that by wanting to reassure you and soothe the anxiety he would say something he didn't mean. I am sure he meant it. I have no reason to doubt his integrity. I was just thinking about the urge to act on the impulse to say it, to soothe over the insecurity rather than work with you to understand it better. Which he can still do, too. That your very human feelings touched his very human feelings and the impulse to react to your feelings was acted on. Very real, very human. I was thinking more about how powerful his words are and how confusing it is when you have strong feelings for a therapist, and therefore how careful therapists should be with their powerful words. And when I say "should" I am saying so, knowing that all therapists are human and even the most skilled do or say things based upon impulse that might complicate the picture a bit.
Anyway, everything can become "grist for the mill", as they say. So, whatever your interpretation of what happened, it is a good idea to talk to your therapist about all the feelings you have.
I hope you understand that what I shared with you was speculation on my part, and perhaps it was ill-advised for me to do so. I am sorry.
Posted by Cindy W on June 4, 2000, at 18:46:48
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 13:56:19
> Cass, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that by wanting to reassure you and soothe the anxiety he would say something he didn't mean. I am sure he meant it. I have no reason to doubt his integrity. I was just thinking about the urge to act on the impulse to say it, to soothe over the insecurity rather than work with you to understand it better. Which he can still do, too. That your very human feelings touched his very human feelings and the impulse to react to your feelings was acted on. Very real, very human. I was thinking more about how powerful his words are and how confusing it is when you have strong feelings for a therapist, and therefore how careful therapists should be with their powerful words. And when I say "should" I am saying so, knowing that all therapists are human and even the most skilled do or say things based upon impulse that might complicate the picture a bit.
>
> Anyway, everything can become "grist for the mill", as they say. So, whatever your interpretation of what happened, it is a good idea to talk to your therapist about all the feelings you have.
> I hope you understand that what I shared with you was speculation on my part, and perhaps it was ill-advised for me to do so. I am sorry.
Cass, Noa, Ted, allisonm, I just got back from out of town and read Cass' post about being in love with her therapist. This thread is of great interest to me, because I also have a "transference" with my pdoc. "In Session" really made me think, and made me realize how much of my infatuation is projection of my own needs and wishes on someone who I respect, admire, and think is sexy but who I hardly even know. If I have the courage, I plan to discuss my transference with my therapist in the context of how I typically screw up relationships (I think I typically do this by falling in love with people, placing them on a pedestal, and finding out they have "clay feet" and being unable to maintain a good relationship with them then because they don't measure up to my "ideal"). So, Cass, I can really relate to what you say. Noa, allisonm, and Todd, your points were also very good. The older I get, the more I realize how much I'm just learning about people and about myself (I'm 48; maybe I'll understand these things by age 90!). P.S. I'm going to my pdoc tomorrow.--Cindy W
>
Posted by harry b. on June 4, 2000, at 22:23:30
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Cindy W on June 4, 2000, at 18:46:48
I've certainly heard and read about transference,
but I've never experienced it.Is it a function of time=soul baring=trust, or is
it more of a personality 'fit'?Cass- Behave yourself ;)
Posted by Cass on June 4, 2000, at 22:53:21
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 13:56:19
Hi Noa, You don't need to apologize. I think your speculations were fair and perhaps accurate to a degree. I am "love sick" and can't be objective. I do appreciate your input though.
Posted by Oddzilla on June 5, 2000, at 13:14:02
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my pdoc. Noa , posted by Cass on June 4, 2000, at 22:53:21
That's what my therapist said when I asked him if he thought I was sexy. I told him about this thread. He said he thought it was an inappropriate comment because sexy is in the eye (or whatever) of the beholder so the therapist was talking about his personal response rather than making an objective statement.He never would say if he thought I was sexy.
I assume he's in denial ;-).I've all ways suspected other people were having much more interesting sessions than I was and now I know. Hope you don't mind me butting in. O.
Posted by Cass on June 5, 2000, at 21:50:28
In reply to Re: Whaaaat? Where did that come from?? » Cass, posted by Oddzilla on June 5, 2000, at 13:14:02
>
> That's what my therapist said when I asked him if he thought I was sexy. I told him about this thread. He said he thought it was an inappropriate comment because sexy is in the eye (or whatever) of the beholder so the therapist was talking about his personal response rather than making an objective statement.
>
> He never would say if he thought I was sexy.
> I assume he's in denial ;-).
>
> I've all ways suspected other people were having much more interesting sessions than I was and now I know. Hope you don't mind me butting in. O.Yes, I think you are right, Oddzilla. He is in denial. I don't mind you butting in at all. I'm still laughing.
Posted by Ginny on June 6, 2000, at 8:31:53
In reply to Re: Whaaaat? Where did that come from?? LOLOL » Oddzilla, posted by Cass on June 5, 2000, at 21:50:28
There is an interesting article in today's New York Times on this topic: http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/060600hth-coversation-orbach.html
Posted by bigbertha on June 7, 2000, at 7:28:44
In reply to Transference, posted by harry b. on June 4, 2000, at 22:23:30
>
> I've certainly heard and read about transference,
> but I've never experienced it.
>
> Is it a function of time=soul baring=trust, or is
> it more of a personality 'fit'?Hi Harry-
I've never had it either and I've been with my
shrink for almost 3 years. But I had it real-bad
with my internist. In fact, the very first time we
met, it was like being struck by lightning! For
some reason (who knows?) I suddenly found myself
thinking about this guy (no movie star, but my age),
all the time. Then we started squabbling over this
v. that treatment, and I just had to "divorce" him!
bb
Posted by JennyR on August 4, 2000, at 21:02:02
In reply to I'm in love with my pdoc., posted by Cass on June 2, 2000, at 23:49:50
Cass,
I was wondering if you'd been back to your doctor and if you did bring up his remark about you being "sexy." If you did I wonder how it went.
This is the end of the thread.
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