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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nancy on May 26, 2000, at 13:55:43
What do you think of Freud? and his hypnosis, psychoanalytic theories and defense mechanisms. Have any of you gone to a psychotherapist, who likes Freud?
Just a question?
nancy
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:20:50
In reply to What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Nancy on May 26, 2000, at 13:55:43
My feelings are that Freud's contributions to the field of psychology have had both positive and negative effects on the development of treatments for mental illness. His work MUST be considered in historical context. I would never see a therapist who relies heavily on Freudian thought to inform his or her approach to therapy, but I think there might be times when familiarity with Freudian work could add to the attempt of the therapist to enter my psychological world and understand my experience. Again, it must be considered in historical context and in the context of a larger body of knowledge coming from other schools of thought. We know a lot more today about psychology, and about the brain, and to have one's outlook on mental illness and treatment be weighted heavily in Freudian psychoanalytic theory is simply misguided and anachronistic. But this doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from studying what Freud had to say and how he came to develop his theories. To do this without also looking at the cultural and historical context that contributed to his way of thinking, however, would be remiss.
Posted by Tina1 on May 26, 2000, at 15:34:26
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:20:50
All I can say is "zat eez a wery eenterestink question" He's a little out of date but some of his teories still hold true. Just my opinion. I try not to get into psych methodologies, it can pigeon hole your treatment process. Then again, some of it is just way over my head!!
> My feelings are that Freud's contributions to the field of psychology have had both positive and negative effects on the development of treatments for mental illness. His work MUST be considered in historical context. I would never see a therapist who relies heavily on Freudian thought to inform his or her approach to therapy, but I think there might be times when familiarity with Freudian work could add to the attempt of the therapist to enter my psychological world and understand my experience. Again, it must be considered in historical context and in the context of a larger body of knowledge coming from other schools of thought. We know a lot more today about psychology, and about the brain, and to have one's outlook on mental illness and treatment be weighted heavily in Freudian psychoanalytic theory is simply misguided and anachronistic. But this doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from studying what Freud had to say and how he came to develop his theories. To do this without also looking at the cultural and historical context that contributed to his way of thinking, however, would be remiss.
Posted by SLS on May 26, 2000, at 15:56:32
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:20:50
> My feelings are that Freud's contributions to the field of psychology have had both positive and negative effects on the development of treatments for mental illness. His work MUST be considered in historical context. I would never see a therapist who relies heavily on Freudian thought to inform his or her approach to therapy, but I think there might be times when familiarity with Freudian work could add to the attempt of the therapist to enter my psychological world and understand my experience. Again, it must be considered in historical context and in the context of a larger body of knowledge coming from other schools of thought. We know a lot more today about psychology, and about the brain, and to have one's outlook on mental illness and treatment be weighted heavily in Freudian psychoanalytic theory is simply misguided and anachronistic. But this doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from studying what Freud had to say and how he came to develop his theories. To do this without also looking at the cultural and historical context that contributed to his way of thinking, however, would be remiss.
Noa - this is a wonderful post. You think and write so well.
- Scott
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:59:25
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by SLS on May 26, 2000, at 15:56:32
Well, Scott, you have simply made my day!!! Thankyou. (blushing profusely)
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 16:59:58
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by SLS on May 26, 2000, at 15:56:32
IMHO, Freud’s main contribution was the recognition that behaviors learned during early childhood are the most durable. His assessment of what behaviors could be learned as rather limited, but his general findings seem to have been confirmed in principle by more recent studies of childhood development.
More recent psychoanalytic methods expanded and loosened up from Freuds determinism. I think most clinics feel psychoanalysis takes to long, but for an individual to develop and catalog their own understanding of their childhood influences seems to be a useful way of getting to know oneself.
This seems to be a approach most useful when it is liberated from the experts and used by the proletariat.
The antithesis of Freudian thought seems to be humanism, which focuses on an individual’s infinate ability to direct their own life.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 18:10:21
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 16:59:58
Good points.
The issue of psychic determinism is an interesting one.
Something else that is interesting to me is that the psychoanalytic model seems to say there is potential for a redemption of sorts from psychic determinism through the use of verbal/intellectual exploration and understanding. My own sense is that such understanding does help to free people from their problems to a certain extent, but that often it is not sufficient to create real change.
>This seems to be a approach most useful when it is liberated from the experts and used by the proletariat.
Say more. I am not sure I understand what you mean.
Posted by Cam W. on May 26, 2000, at 18:55:49
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 18:10:21
I think that Freud had a lot of good ideas, but some of them (eg schizophrenogenic mothers) were very wrong. The problem most people have (had) with Freud is that he was describing his theories using metaphors that his detractors took literally. - Cam
Posted by Rockets on May 26, 2000, at 23:42:21
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Cam W. on May 26, 2000, at 18:55:49
Freud was 5150. In addition to being confused about reality, he suffered from various chemical addictions and panic disorder. A thoroughly disturbed individual.
Posted by kazoo on May 27, 2000, at 13:09:30
In reply to What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Nancy on May 26, 2000, at 13:55:43
> What do you think of Freud? and his hypnosis, psychoanalytic theories and defense mechanisms. Have any of you gone to a psychotherapist, who likes Freud?
> Just a question?
> nancy^^^^^^^^^^^
He's DA BOMB ... and he dropped da bomb when he published his ideas re. infant sexuality during the Victorian age. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Actually, there are those who claim that Freud single-handedly managed to offend every person on the planet with his ideas/theories.
Perhaps ...A psychiatrist I had during the 1980s was analyzed by Robert Fliess, son of Wilhelm Fliess, Freud's
suspected homosexual buddy. This doctor told me that Bobby had one hell of a case of Tourette's Syndrome and was given to
episodes of extreme animation and filthy language during a session.
Interesting ...Best general book on Freud: "A Life for Our Time," by Yale historian Peter Gay.
Also look into the scandal with Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson and Janet Malcolm.
kazoo
Posted by SLS on May 27, 2000, at 15:20:09
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by kazoo on May 27, 2000, at 13:09:30
> I think that Freud had a lot of good ideas, but some of them (eg schizophrenogenic mothers) were very wrong. The problem most people have (had) with Freud is that he was describing his theories using metaphors that his detractors took literally. - Cam
Dr. Freud began his career as a neurologist. I just thought I'd mention that for whatever relevance it may have.I'm no student of psychology - or anything else for that matter - but I kind of like the id/ego/superego thing.
Noa - if you are reading this - I have 2 1/2 questions:1. How are you doing since raising your dosage of Serzone? Do you feel that anything is lacking?
2. Personal question. Optional. (I have decided not to coerce you by employing my telepathic powers - *today*).
What background/education/profession/vocation/niscience/other do you have? I guess I am still a bit taken by your "extratherapeutic" posts. (I only seem to get around to reading those relating to therapeutic issues). Please feel free not to answer.
Crap. I didn't mean for this to be flattering.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 15:50:19
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by SLS on May 27, 2000, at 15:20:09
Scott, thank you so much for asking. I am doing much better lately. I would attribute it to being on this dose of thyroid hormones for a month and a half, and to having lowered the effexor xr from 375 to 300, and raising the serzone from 225 to 300. I feel more tired with the higher serzone, but not enough to be very bothered by it. I like being on the lower dose of effexor, because my sleep is so much better (also thanks to the increased serzone) and I have a lot less, in fact, almost none, of the weird neuromotor fidgetiness, myoclonus, agitation, etc. Occasionally, as I am resting before sleep, I still get this feeling of nerve impulse that feels like it travels along the nerves toward the extremities, and is released with a kind of extension of hands, toes, etc., accompanied by feelings of sort of anxiety, and by an impulsive shout/groan/exclamation. It seems tic-like in some ways. It used to happen frequently, but now only once in a while, maybe once a day. Same with foot/leg shaking, finger wiggling, etc.--happens, but less often, and less intensely (none of these things occurred prior to effexor or ssris).
I consider this to be a medication holding pattern right now. It is ok, I am feeling much better, but it isn't perfect. I want to stay on it for a while. If depression worsens, my next step is to change the stimulant--probably to adderall--for a period to see how that is.
Scott, I will answer your other question this way: although I know I am probably being irrational about this, I have a small amount of paranoia about the idea that someone who knows me might see my posts here and I would like very much for this to remain a part of my world where I can have at least some control over privacy. I have revealed quite a lot about myself except my profession and specific location. At this point I would prefer to keep it that way. I know the odds are that it is unlikely for someone I know to read this, but this way I can maintain a perception of safety, which frees me to communicate meaningfully here.
And, Carol Ann, no, this doesn't mean I am someone famous! :0 )
Posted by Danny on May 27, 2000, at 19:28:14
In reply to What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Nancy on May 26, 2000, at 13:55:43
I think of Freud as an early explorer who made great discoveries, but drew the wrong conclusions. Especially wi th all the sexual references.
What do you think of Freud? and his hypnosis, psychoanalytic theories and defense mechanisms. Have any of you gone to a psychotherapist, who likes Freud?
> Just a question?
> nancy
Posted by Orin on May 28, 2000, at 0:40:03
In reply to What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Nancy on May 26, 2000, at 13:55:43
> nancy:
From his writings, Mr. Freud seems to have been a compassionate person. I believe his work was a genuine expression of his desire to help people. In the Standard Edition translation, he speaks very clearly, with warmth and conviction. He presented his new ideas so they could be understood.
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2000, at 10:19:09
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?-, posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 15:50:19
> I consider this to be a medication holding pattern right now. It is ok, I am feeling much better, but it isn't perfect. I want to stay on it for a while. If depression worsens, my next step is to change the stimulant--probably to adderall--for a period to see how that is.
What stimulant are you taking now, and how much?
> Scott, I will answer your other question this way: although I know I am probably being irrational about this, I have a small amount of paranoia about the idea that someone who knows me might see my posts here and I would like very much for this to remain a part of my world where I can have at least some control over privacy. I have revealed quite a lot about myself except my profession and specific location. At this point I would prefer to keep it that way. I know the odds are that it is unlikely for someone I know to read this, but this way I can maintain a perception of safety, which frees me to communicate meaningfully here.
I really had a hard time deciding whether or not to post question #2. I must have submitted - backspaced a dozen times, but I was intensely interested to know the depth of your knowledge in psychology-sociology. I find your perspective and the factual detail supporting it to be so well-directed. I just wish I had more energy to read the threads that contain your posts.
I had never considered that the question I asked might be a "dangerous" provocation for you to "blow your cover". Your reasons for not doing so are not irrational. I'm not sure I would have. My reasons have more to do with embarrassment. I felt the question was very personal, though, but I thought it likely that you had already shared this information. I'm glad you didn't.
You are so cool.
Anyway, I hope you don't hate me anymore.
> And, Carol Ann, no, this doesn't mean I am someone famous! :0 )
Well, I guess that depends upon the venue.
Sincerely,
Scott
Posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 12:51:09
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?- Hi Noa., posted by SLS on May 28, 2000, at 10:19:09
Hey, Scott,
I certainly did not consider your question a dangerous provocation to blow my cover! Hardly. It was a legitimate question, but I just reserve the right to keep some info private.
I appreciate your comments. A lot of times, tho, I feel my posts are more speculative than factual. Or at least, my "take" on things.
As for stimulant--I take 20 mg methylphenidate SR, twice daily.
I have to admit, I sometimes skip parts of yours and others' posts, too, because the technical stuff is a challenge for me. Sometimes, I have the energy to hang in there and try to follow the technical info, but often I feel I am sorely lacking in the science background.
with mutual respect,
Noa
Posted by JennyR on May 30, 2000, at 21:09:15
In reply to Re: What do you guys think of Freud?- Scott., posted by Noa on May 30, 2000, at 12:51:09
On the Freud question -- he was definitely wrong on some things - like that vaginal and clitoral orgasms are two different things and that for a female to mature, she has to move away from the clitoral to the vaginal. Way off there.
But I am in pretty heavy duty psychodynamic therapy which has helped me tremendously. And psychodynamic therapy owes its roots to psychoanalysis. My therapist went to an analytic institute and that is why, I believe, he is able to work with me on a deep level.
The main contribution of Freud, which I believe is incredibly important, is the the realization of the unconscious mind - something we today may feel is common sense, but a novel thought then. As I have gotten to deeper and deeper levels in therapy as we painfully unravel me, it is certainly clear to me that we bury things (not just memories, but anger, pain) and yet they affect us very much until we dig them up. They dictate very basic assumptions about the world and how to be in it. We think we do things for certain reasons, or are unaware of why we act/react certain ways. Until we dig deeper, and bring our deeper conflict and fears to the surface. I used to think this was all crap, but my firsthand experience with it has changed all that.
Also, Freud's observation that dreams are "the royal road to the unconscious" and stressing dreams as important to therapy - this was very important. I have worked with dreams in therapy. I'm not talking about anything long and thin is a phallic symbol. That's a joke. I'm talking about dreams really being messages from the unconscious about my deeper feelings. It has been a very powerful thing for me. When I write down my dreams and then look at the images and what those images mean to me, and then piece it all together, there is always some statement from inside about something going on in my life. Frued was definitely on track there.
This is the end of the thread.
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