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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 10:39:22
In reply to Rage and Cutting Revisited, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 10:08:58
Cynthia,
All I can say is that it can be so demoralizing when you are trying so hard and not feeling any progress happening. I often say something similar to what you did, about wanting to be able to just live like a "normal" person, without all the crap that we struggle with. For me, it has been helping lately to try to conceptualize the problem as one I am experiencing, not as one that I *am*. This is hard for me to do, as I imagine it is for you, too. I took an image from a book for teens on depression, called Conquering the Beast Within, by Cait Irwin. The image is of depression as a beast, external to the self. It helps me to envision my depression as a problem that is oppressing me, that I don't deserve, that I need help surviving and fighting and resisting, etc. If I were to expect myself to just control my feelings and get my s**t together on my own, that would be adding to my burden because it would be setting myself up to fail.
What I am saying is not the same as not taking responsibility for getting well. It is just acknowledging that I need help to do that.
And it takes a long time. And it is hard.
To place that overwhelming expectation on yourself, that you should just pull it all together and stop having problems, well, that is just adding to your self-torture, isn't it?
But if you have a bad day, like yesterday, maybe what you need to do is to try to not beat yourself up for it even more. Bad days happen. They are awful and scary and horrible. But they do happen. They are awful enough to experience once through. Why punish yourself again by blaming yourself for having had a bad day. It happened *to* you, so you deserve comfort and soothing, not blame.
Your life sounds overwhelming to me. Nine kids, limited budget, and all. It seems like your coping resources are just stretched too far (whose wouldn't??). It is time to stop expecting yourself to be superhuman.
As for moving toward getting better...You have already taken an amazing step, which is to name the problem, acknowledge it, and talk about it here with us. A person cannot begin to find a way toward wellness without this step.
One thing I read in the two books on self-injury is that it usually takes a long time to develop an entrenched cutting disorder. So, it is not something that will go away in a short time. I think specialized treatment might help you.
And by no means have you been taking up our time and space. This is your time and space, too. It is ours together.
Posted by Janet on May 17, 2000, at 10:46:28
In reply to Rage and Cutting Revisited, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 10:08:58
Cynthia M.
I sincerely wish I could help the urges go away for you. I do not know how to help, but someone does. Keep seeking help. Meanwhile, keep posting, I'm reading and my compassion is somehow trying to make it's way to you over the cyber waves. Do you live near a big city that would have a larger variety of pdocs.? Even if it did cost a lot it would be worth it for your peace. And you know the other choice is winding up in the hospital with a HUGE bill. (at least 1,000 dollars a day usually, unless there are cheaper, county facilities) And maybe it would not take too many visits with the new doctor ? Just to get started on the correct medicine or therapy or whatever is causing this. It must be so majorly FRUSTRATING I imagine.
You go girl and never give up, never give up, never, never, never give up. You and your family are worth it !!!!!
Janet
Posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 15:38:16
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited, posted by Janet on May 17, 2000, at 10:46:28
Thanks both of you so much for your amazing support. I was just at my therapist and her reaction is that I am setting myself up for yet another "Lable" of border-line personality disorder. Like I am doing this on purpose, so I guess I have to not tell anyone- people don't handle this well. I am surprised that my husband is not arguing my decision to stop all of my meds.( he sees me as a drugged zombie) I am angry at the "system" for convincing me that I need them more than anything. I am playing the "game" and I am still not well. I have had it.I am tired of not being the person I want to be. I use to enjoy things, now all I do is go to psych appointments! These people are not my life! If I put as much effort into weight loss as I do to psychiatry I would be thin! I have a family that is depending on me to hold it together. Somewhere , somehow, in the deepest recesses of my brain there is the ability to handle what God has given me. I just have to figure out how to access it.Maybe I could substitute sex (pleasure) for cutting(pain) I don't think my husband would mind and it can definitely be as theraputic and not as scarring.I am rambling- day one- no meds. Should I be holding my breath?
Posted by Janet on May 17, 2000, at 15:42:44
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 15:38:16
Maybe I could substitute sex (pleasure) for cutting(pain)
Hey, sex is cool.
janet
Posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 15:53:58
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Janet on May 17, 2000, at 15:42:44
> Maybe I could substitute sex (pleasure) for cutting(pain)
>
> Hey, sex is cool.
>
> janetJanet I thinkthis could be fun, I wonder if there are any studies anywhere- after all I am the Professional Patient.-Cyndy
Posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:54:08
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 15:38:16
From what I read, people who cut are not necessarily suffering from borderline personality disorder. You aren't cutting to get attention. It is more of a compulsion.
Substituting one behavior for another isn't addressing the point either. The cutting has developed over time for a reason--it is a way of coping with feelings and just substituting something else doesn't really address what is underneath.
I think you have to think of this as a process, not something that is going to be cured overnight.
I think your current clinicians are letting you know they don't know how to treat this disorder. This is probably not unusual. I don't think most clinicians are trained to treat it. That is why finding a specialist or a specialized program seems a good way to go.
And yes, deep down, you probably do have the resources to deal with your life. But right now you don't know how to access them and are expecting too much of yourself. You need to access the right kind of help to help you to navigate your way through this.
I don't think there is anything wrong with needing the helpers in the system. But you sound like you don't have any hope that they can help you. That is what is missing. You need to be helped by someone who can convey hope to you that your problem is treatable, that you can begin to work toward being the person you want to be.
But again, this has to be seen as a process. And you probably need to explore what it means to be the person you want to be. I get the feeling, over and over, that you are constantly measuring yourself up against an impossible ideal, and of course finding yourself inadequate.
How about contacting one of the SAFE type programs?
Posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:56:13
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 15:53:58
More sex sounds good, but....will it mean more babies????? That is probably not what you need right now.
Posted by bob on May 17, 2000, at 18:58:40
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:56:13
Cyndy, I think it's great you're so frustrated -- as long as you can funnel that into some action other than more cutting. But not wanting to settle for what you have sure makes one helluva lot of sense!
I gotta run now, but I just wanted to toss in my support. You're never a waste of our time or space ... like Noa said, it's your space, too.
be well,
bob
Posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 20:35:48
In reply to No retreat, no surrender, posted by bob on May 17, 2000, at 18:58:40
Hey guys, Thanks so much for the great support, saw my therapist and she is like"see you next week" and talked about this in group (pt. moderated) and the therapist that oversees us came in and we had just been talking about my situation and we didn't tell her what exactly was going on with me and she said that they would only admit me to a psych involuntarily (5150) if I was a harm to someone or to 'myself'......everyone dropped it after that since Ihad said before she came in that I didn't want to be 5150... So , I will check out the SAFE site and wait for my book and continue to try to overcome my perfectionist tendencies.... Oh , no problem of more babies ( hysterectomy 1998) maybe I can at least try to relax a little :) ... I am sure my husband won't mind......; ) I will try again tomorrow to avoid the urge.. {{{{{HUGS}}}} to you all.- Cyndy
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:37:24
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:56:13
> More sex sounds good, but....will it mean more babies????? That is probably not what you need right now.
Noa and Cynthia, there's always the one-person sex...that doesn't make babies and is a lot easier to institute when one needs to substitute something to replace a bad behavior! ;)
(when I used to want to lose weight, I'd try this and my hunger went away for a while)--Cindy W
Posted by Cynthia M on May 18, 2000, at 10:01:16
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:37:24
Cindy W - What a great way to lose weight- did it work ? How much did you lose?
Posted by Cindy W on May 18, 2000, at 19:57:44
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cynthia M on May 18, 2000, at 10:01:16
> Cindy W - What a great way to lose weight- did it work ? How much did you lose?
Cynthia, back when I was anorexic (first year of college), I lost from l40 down to 90 lbs. in two months, by masturbating, "marching" while watching tv (around and arouand the room), and by cutting my food intake (ate one carton of yogurt, an apple, and a couple of slices of sandwich meat each day). Ah, the good old days! Now it takes me months to lose l lb. (I don't have the energy to masturbate or exercise, and cutting my food intake is a lot harder to do). ;)--Cindy W
Posted by Cynthia M on May 19, 2000, at 10:59:30
In reply to Re: Rage andsex, posted by Cindy W on May 18, 2000, at 19:57:44
Cindy- It totally sucks that as we age other things seem to be more important than weight and appearance- If I had no other interest in life I could probably be very succesful at losing weight ... It is just that these pesky little kids demand so much time attention and love, and I wouldn't have it any other way... There are times that I tell my husband to remind me that I really do like sex and It is worth the effort to "force " myself to relax! Thanks for the support - I got a great book called Bodily Harm and i have already read all of it (got it yesterday) there is a great deal of helpful and sensible information in it and it really focuses on the control that we all have with in ourselves.... I like the way of thinking. No cutting today so far but I am not sure the reason, the book , sex ( last night and this morning) or 100mgs of Seroquel at 3 am...... I willhave to keep doing all or work on a process of elimination...well, maybe not the sex... Thanks so much to all of you for your support and understanding.. This was the only forum that actually has been supportive of me....Love to you all - Cyndy
Posted by Janice on May 19, 2000, at 17:50:47
In reply to Control!, posted by Cynthia M on May 19, 2000, at 10:59:30
Hello Cynthia,
I've been empathizing with you for the past couple of weeks and all your problems. I don't really have much to add from what everyone else has, but I can share a bit of my personal experience (with raging) that may give you some insights.
My pdoc explained it to me as a type of seizure (I have no interest in science and would always insist he put everything in a layperson's version) and that basically it just had to run its course (mine were usually no longer than 2 days, and no shorter than about 7 hours). But there are things you can do to shorten the length of the rage--I'm hoping that book you're reading will list many of them for you. For me, serious exercise (running, walking for hours, hiking, lifting weights) were the only things that helped to shorten a rage.
Also once I started taking care of the bipolar with medications that really seemed to help, the raging pretty well stopped. For me, I believe it was a symptom of my bipolar.
The very best of luck for you. You sound like an intelligent woman Cynthia. Janice
ps. think you could be going manic (sex talk & talk of going off meds)?
Posted by Cynthia M on May 20, 2000, at 12:45:33
In reply to Raging ( some ideas to hopefully help), posted by Janice on May 19, 2000, at 17:50:47
Janice - Thanks so much for the help and the interest... I have found that I don't remember half of what occurs during my rages and usually am shocked at the amount of force I am able to exert... I would agree with your assesment of sezuire like activity.... I would also agree with the idea of possible mania at this point... I had labs drawn on tuesday and was told yesterday that they still did not have results back...... right....... anyway I am tired of being at the mercy of these people... I fully understand the importance of staying on the right meds but I am tired of the ridiculous psychotherapy that is doing nothing to help the situations Ifind myself in.... I think that walking is probably more effective and more theraputic... I am so bored with myself!!! I need to cultivate other interests that don't revolve around the mental health building.! I should find out about the meds levels sometime next week.... until then i have to stay away from there since I feel like I have set myself up for another 5150 by revealing the self injurious behavior..... Hey , I didn't cut yesterday, first day in a long time, maybe today will work out as well. Thanks again, Cyndy
Posted by Janice on May 21, 2000, at 20:27:03
In reply to Re: Raging ( some ideas to hopefully help), posted by Cynthia M on May 20, 2000, at 12:45:33
a very good plan.
I gotta say, I don't believe psychotherapy ever did me one bit of good.
Janice
Posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 3:46:07
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 15:54:08
> From what I read, people who cut are not necessarily suffering from borderline personality disorder. You aren't cutting to get attention. It is more of a compulsion.
I think the understanding is that, while cutting is a strong (not absolute) indicator of BPD, the behavior has been misinterpreted in the past (regardless of whether BPD is an accurate diagnosis for the particular individual). That is, people with BPD *do* have compulsions to cut when they feel overwhelmed, and they *aren't* "just doing it for the attention."
> Substituting one behavior for another isn't addressing the point either.
One compulsion for another, you mean?
> The cutting has developed over time for a reason--it is a way of coping with feelings and just substituting something else doesn't really address what is underneath.
You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
Posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 3:46:07
Elizabeth, good to have you around again. Where ya been?
>You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
I wonder, too. I have heard that it can stimulate endorphin release, but so can a lot of other things. Why cutting?
I keep thinking there HAS to be an evolutionary analog---some way that cutting or an analogous behavior has advantages for survival in certain circumstances, either because of the apparent effects of the injury, or because of biochemical effects.
Could there be any relationship between pathological self-injury cutting, and ritualized cutting for cultural initiations, like circumcision, or the kind of cutting that is done in some cultures, creating elaborate designs in the skin?
Posted by Cynthia M on May 22, 2000, at 13:41:45
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
Maybe - the rage is definitely a factor whereas in ritualistic cutting the emotions are more controlled. I am definitely not an expert but I do know that the effect of the BLOOD is major..... I was disapointed on saturday because I broke my contract with myself and cut, still, I didn't cut friday or yesterday.... this is progress...... I am feeling better and have not given in to the urge to call Mental Health and ask about lab results...this is good.... I don't need them.... I see the nurse on thursday and that will be all i need ... iam cancelling wednesday's appointment with the therapist... maybe friday's too.... well... time to go pick up kids ... thanks again for all of the support.. You have all been great... if anyone has any ideas or suggestions .. i would indeed be greatful ... Cyndy
Posted by bob on May 22, 2000, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 8:22:33
> >You know, what I don't get is, why does it work at all (even in the short term)?
>
> I wonder, too. I have heard that it can stimulate endorphin release, but so can a lot of other things. Why cutting?Well, there are other things people besides cutting to injure themselves, but cutting does seem to be the norm. For me, it gets back to control. To have the illusion that I'm in control of causing the pain or injury is extremely powerful. The gratification that comes from the sense of control can almost wipe out the pain -- both of what I do and the pain I'm feeling over which I have NO control, the thing that drives me to self-injury. Probably quite a bit similar to some state of self-hypnosis -- you can ignore the pain because of the extreme focus on what you're doing.
my two cents
bob
Posted by Noa on May 22, 2000, at 18:20:14
In reply to Re: Rage and Cutting Revisited Noa amd Janet, posted by Cynthia M on May 22, 2000, at 13:41:45
.. iam cancelling wednesday's appointment with the therapist... maybe friday's too....
Cynthia, given how recent sessions went, which probably felt really out of control for you, and in which you felt your rage was triggered, leading to the feeling that the clinicians were ready to lock you up, I can understand your desire to avoid going back. Especially, since you are really tuned in now to the idea of self-control when it comes to cutting. But perhaps another way to look at it is that you can go back to them and report all the work you have done--getting more info on your disorder, reading the book, making a good effort to reduce the frequency of cutting etc. It is an opportunity to ask the therapist to work with you to work in this new direction, and an opportunity to present this stronger sense of yourself that I think you are trying to get in touch with.
I also hope you don't reject all mental health care, just because the people you have seen have not been equipped to address your problem. Setting yourself up with the expectation to conquer the self-injury problem, and the problems underlying it, alone with no assistance, seems, well, like a set up. Just from your handful of posts, I get the impression that you are someone who expects a lot from herself. I love that you have taken on the challenge of cutting less, but I worry that you expect yourself not to need help. Perhaps you don't need the help, but to set up that expectation is a lot of pressure. Why not interview another clinician, one who is well versed in self-injury?
Posted by medlib on May 22, 2000, at 22:10:11
In reply to Rage and Cutting Revisited, posted by Cynthia M on May 17, 2000, at 10:08:58
Cynthia et al--
While reading this thread, I kept flashing on the old "medical" practice of bloodletting. It was considered particularly appropriate for systemic (whole body) illness; draining out a quantity of the "bad" blood must have seemed symbolically reasonable. "Bad blood" became an all purpose explanation for both cause and treatment of what couldn't otherwise be understood.
I believe that bloodletting lasted as long as it did because it has an instinctual component. "If I am injured, do I not bleed?" Rage *is* an injury--at least to the spirit.
I think it must be human nature to want to do something dramatic to "rescue" someone gravely ill (even ourselves), if for no other reason, to demonstrate our concern. Sometimes, I wonder if, in another 2 generations, our descendents won't view the large-incision surgery of today as we do bloodletting.
I also believe that all OCD's (and I include all addictions) have a common underlying mechanism--the release or relief of intolerable internal tension. Although they employ different means and send different messages, all such behaviors serve to focus attention away from what cannot be "stood" or understood toward what is comfortingly familiar, tho harmful. "Better the evil known..."
If you conclude that my "free associations" are too theoretical and don't apply to the behavior you wrestle with daily, I shall understand completely. I do not see this one from the inside. Put it down to the musings of an insufficiently occupied mind.
My OCDs are sufficiently subtle that I can easily fail to notice that I engage in them. I routinely deny anxiety (not enough energy). So I was surprised, once I was on Effexor, to see the skin on my lower arms clear up, to notice buying the same few foods all the time, to observe that doing crosswords, or playing computer bridge and Free Cell does not relieve my "restlessness" as it used to. This thread has reminded me that the reason that I leave the house only once every 10 days-2 weeks probably is *not* lack of energy. How easily we routinize the regular, but weird.
My last odd observation (at least for now): the more dysfunctional I become, the more important it seems to forgive myself daily for being less than perfect--and then, to try to believe that I'm forgiven.
Well wishes--a babbling medlib
Posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 10:07:18
In reply to Re: Cutting=bloodletting?, posted by medlib on May 22, 2000, at 22:10:11
Perhaps there is something to the bloodletting.......it just seems better when there is more blood.... I haven't cut since Saturday and I am restless.. My arm is beginning to heal and it is disturbing me. Noa I think your Idea is a good one, that i have found a valuable resource and I am getting things more under control ... Although Saturday I cut because of being tired and an inability to handle the "normal" mom stuff ( although how normal can it be with 9 kids???!!!) anyway bob, I am sure that the issue of control is huge here, the sense of control that I can get from cutting is amazingly intense... medlib, your associations are really very insightful and I appreciate your seeing that the idea of forgiveness for being "less than perfect" is an important issue for me. I have always been a perfectionist and I am finding it harder and harder to "comply" with my own expectations....I have found that I need to take on another project and focus as much as I can there and not on the other areas of control that I really have no control over.. No w I try dieting........... I can control how much I eat and how much I exercise etc... at least if I am substituting behaviors I will be getting a positive response from the "outside' psychiatric community instead of the threat of being locked up. Thanks for the continued support.. today I am cleaning... It is getting hot here and wearing long sleeves is getting old.....Thanks again..... Cyndy
Posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 20:09:15
In reply to Re: Cutting=bloodletting?, posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 10:07:18
OK talk about a complete waste of time! I just spent an hour and a half with a "therapist" who did nothing but tell me that I may be having rage and it may have nothing to do with being bipolar. I guess I am just a bitch who has absolutely no self-control. It really is irritating when they say if your labs are good then maybe you are just re-acting to other stimuli...... I don't act like this on a normal basis so why would I "allow" it to have such a strong affect on me just because of the results of some labs... which by the way they didn't give me the results for......So, I guess that being "bipolar" has nothing to do with the way I feel about things or the way I handle things......Interesting.... does anyone want to tell me why I am taking all of this f**cking medication????If I am a just a bitch then why take all the pills....... I am wondering if any of these people have ever experienced blind rage.... I wonder if they have ever had their children afraid of them because of a rage episode.... Is it just me???? Am I not responding well to external stimuli? This "enlightening " session this afternoon makes me want to cut more than I have in two days!!!!! I have had it with therapy... I am supposed to go see my "regular" therapist tomorrow morning.. the guy I saw this afternoon was a crisis worker. I am tired of being treated like I am being melodramatic... It is like... Just shut up, let me cut , give me my other meds, if they are going to work, and leave me alone! Am I wrong here? Can someone who has never felt it relate to it?Sorry going off but at least I am not cutting right now.... Please respond with any and all opinions because the personelle that I am dealing with seem to think I am wearing my "Bipolar Disorder" as a crown or something and I can't survive without the drama.... I would like to never go back.... flush the meds and move on with life..........
Posted by Janice on May 23, 2000, at 20:42:19
In reply to Re: Cutting= B.S.?, posted by Cynthia M on May 23, 2000, at 20:09:15
If something similar didn't happen to me, I would have found it very hard to believe. It sounds to me like they don't know anything about bipolar or rages--my two went together like peanut butter and jam--and the raging went away as I got the bipolar under control. I never cut, but there was usually a climax where I would destroy something that was symbolic to the particular rage I was having.If I were you, I'd stay far away from these people who *think* they are helping you. But don't give up on your medications Cynthia because when you finally get the relief you really need, it will be from medications. It doesn't sound like your meds are that great right now. I'd put my energy into researching medications and trying to find the right combination for yourself.
That's the exact kind of therapy that made me feel sick inside and eventually give up on it.
Take care Cynthia, Janice
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