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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DJ on February 20, 2000, at 22:15:14
John-L,
As usual you write eloquently, passionately and compassionately. However, you don't take into account the placebo effect which the NY Times magazine had a great article about a couple of months back. That can easily account for the differences in opinion, on top of quality differences.
I went down to Bellingham, Washington to get some when I first heard of it back in May or so, as I was in major depression including musco-skeletal pain (which made SAM-E that much more attractive because of its supposed anti-arthritic benefits), and it was unavailable in Canada yet. I bought a couple of packages from GNC, which if I can believe their web sites and brochures (which is always highly in doubt with any self-promotions) uses outside labs for testing.
Long story short, no noticable benefit despite lots of hope & a highly skeptical nature (comes from being the son of alawyer/judge). Perhaps, I didn't try heavy enough dosages or give it enough time. Perhaps I didn't believe enough.
I learned about it originally from a Newsweek cover story and a reference in Psych. Today. It was the fourth largest selling supplement in the U.S.A. at the time, though most folks had never heard of it months before...certainly a giant marketing job was done on it. Smells like snake oil to me...which is fine, if it works for ya...
As much as I value your insights, my experience, observations and Cam W.'s training in pharmacology mixed with his equally passionate, compassionate and eloquent writings would lead me to lean toward his camp and a belief in the placebo effect which is powerful, when harnessed with the power of media.
DJ
> There are dozens of controlled studies showing SAMe effective in all types of depressions. There are now anecdotal reports popping up from a lot of family doctors and psychiatrists who have allowed their patients to try SAMe. They are reporting being surprised by the benefits. Especially in difficult cases. But just like anything else, we also hear of other people who weren't helped with SAMe. I think, as with all treatments, it all depends on what the underlying malfunction is and how closely SAMe influences that malfunction. How it works we may never know for sure.
> There are two camps on SAMe. One views it as worthy. The other views it as hype. Which camp it falls into in your world depends completely on a >personal trial.
Posted by Cam W. on February 21, 2000, at 2:49:21
In reply to Following up on Cam W. JohnL's SAMe thoughts..., posted by DJ on February 20, 2000, at 22:15:14
> John-L,
>
> As usual you write eloquently, passionately and compassionately. However, you don't take into account the placebo effect which the NY Times magazine had a great article about a couple of months back. That can easily account for the differences in opinion, on top of quality differences.
>
> I went down to Bellingham, Washington to get some when I first heard of it back in May or so, as I was in major depression including musco-skeletal pain (which made SAM-E that much more attractive because of its supposed anti-arthritic benefits), and it was unavailable in Canada yet. I bought a couple of packages from GNC, which if I can believe their web sites and brochures (which is always highly in doubt with any self-promotions) uses outside labs for testing.
>
> Long story short, no noticable benefit despite lots of hope & a highly skeptical nature (comes from being the son of alawyer/judge). Perhaps, I didn't try heavy enough dosages or give it enough time. Perhaps I didn't believe enough.
>
> I learned about it originally from a Newsweek cover story and a reference in Psych. Today. It was the fourth largest selling supplement in the U.S.A. at the time, though most folks had never heard of it months before...certainly a giant marketing job was done on it. Smells like snake oil to me...which is fine, if it works for ya...
>
> As much as I value your insights, my experience, observations and Cam W.'s training in pharmacology mixed with his equally passionate, compassionate and eloquent writings would lead me to lean toward his camp and a belief in the placebo effect which is powerful, when harnessed with the power of media.
>
> DJ
>
> > There are dozens of controlled studies showing SAMe effective in all types of depressions. There are now anecdotal reports popping up from a lot of family doctors and psychiatrists who have allowed their patients to try SAMe. They are reporting being surprised by the benefits. Especially in difficult cases. But just like anything else, we also hear of other people who weren't helped with SAMe. I think, as with all treatments, it all depends on what the underlying malfunction is and how closely SAMe influences that malfunction. How it works we may never know for sure.
>
> > There are two camps on SAMe. One views it as worthy. The other views it as hype. Which camp it falls into in your world depends completely on a >personal trialDJ - Nothing in this world is for granted, but SAM-e isn't one ot then. I really don not care what you put into your bodies, but if you want relief, do not look for the quick fix, It just isn't out there. Rather than expecting a quick-fix for everything, realize that you screwed up you body in a specific way and now it is too late to get motility back. You have to live with what your body has given your, over the years and now be able to ajust to within it's patameters. You are what you have made yourself and there is nothing you can do about it. A sensible diet and a workout resimen can reduce weight gain, but look at you parents, and that is what you will look like in 20 years. Sorry, there is not easy way to put it, unless you drastically shange your lifestyle. Sorry - Cam W.
Posted by Dj on February 21, 2000, at 4:08:26
In reply to Following up on Cam W. JohnL's SAMe thoughts..., posted by DJ on February 20, 2000, at 22:15:14
> John-L,
>
> As usual you write eloquently, passionately and compassionately. However, you don't take into account the placebo effect which the NY Times magazine had a great article about a couple of months back. That can easily account for the differences in opinion, on top of quality differences.
>
> I went down to Bellingham, Washington to get some when I first heard of it back in May or so, as I was in major depression including musco-skeletal pain (which made SAM-E that much more attractive because of its supposed anti-arthritic benefits), and it was unavailable in Canada yet. I bought a couple of packages from GNC, which if I can believe their web sites and brochures (which is always highly in doubt with any self-promotions) uses outside labs for testing.
>
> Long story short, no noticable benefit despite lots of hope & a highly skeptical nature (comes from being the son of alawyer/judge). Perhaps, I didn't try heavy enough dosages or give it enough time. Perhaps I didn't believe enough.
>
> I learned about it originally from a Newsweek cover story and a reference in Psych. Today. It was the fourth largest selling supplement in the U.S.A. at the time, though most folks had never heard of it months before...certainly a giant marketing job was done on it. Smells like snake oil to me...which is fine, if it works for ya...
>
> As much as I value your insights, my experience, observations and Cam W.'s training in pharmacology mixed with his equally passionate, compassionate and eloquent writings would lead me to lean toward his camp and a belief in the placebo effect which is powerful, when harnessed with the power of media.
>
> DJ
>
> > There are dozens of controlled studies showing SAMe effective in all types of depressions. There are now anecdotal reports popping up from a lot of family doctors and psychiatrists who have allowed their patients to try SAMe. They are reporting being surprised by the benefits. Especially in difficult cases. But just like anything else, we also hear of other people who weren't helped with SAMe. I think, as with all treatments, it all depends on what the underlying malfunction is and how closely SAMe influences that malfunction. How it works we may never know for sure.
>
> > There are two camps on SAMe. One views it as worthy. The other views it as hype. Which camp it falls into in your world depends completely on a >personal trial.DJ - I didn't leave out placebo effect, as after all this time it is presumed to be implied. I do believe in placebo effect in a great many instances and I believe that it should be instituted in a great many for of our traditional treatments, unethical as it seem. Give me randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies any day to prove the efficacy of any agent, and I will still nit-kit your study for methodological errors. My conclusion, if a treatment works in one person, no matter how it is tested; it worked and that is good enougth for me (but I will still watch for relapse)
Thanks for keeping me honest, DJ. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by JohnL on February 21, 2000, at 6:10:13
In reply to Following up on Cam W. JohnL's SAMe thoughts..., posted by DJ on February 20, 2000, at 22:15:14
Placebo effect or not makes no difference to me. All that matters is that the patient gets well, and stays well. If SAMe does that for some people (it does) then I cheer the results.
But as I've believed over and over, it all depends on the underlying genetic/biological problem and how well any particular drug influences that problem. There are responders and nonresponders to every drug out there. Response depends on the drug's influence on the underlying problem, which could be one of many, or a blend of several.
I could care less what marketing or advertising has to say about SAMe. I ignore the hype. I looked at the controlled scientific studies for guidance. As Cam mentioned, they can be full of errors, but I much prefer basing drug choices on clinical studies than marketing hype or trendy fashions. There's never any guarantee, but at least I try to stack the odds in my favor. It was the result of reading all the controlled studies on SAMe, which date back to the early 1980's (SAMe is by no means a new discovery). Millions of people have been using it succesfully in Europe for decades. I'm sure millions of others there found it useless.
From my own personal experience from numerous short trials (lost count), I know for a fact, not hype, that SAMe does this for me: Provides immediate boost of energy, relieves a depressive slump in 2 days, helps the prescrip work better, boosts sex drive, lowers my chronic hip pain, gives me stomach gas, lowers my appetite, empties my wallet. I can expect all of these things any and every time I try SAMe at 800mg a day. But that's just me. That doesn't imply it will do the same with everyone.
The greatest criticism of hype and media that I have is that they imply there is some miracle one-shoe-fits-all. As we all know from broken-hearted trials of different things, there is no one shoe that fits all. It all depends on the underlying problem. For some people, SAMe will help correct whatever that problem is. For others it won't. For yet others it will have a placebo effect, just like any prescrip does. You and I have both tried SAMe. From our personal trials we can reasonably conclude that you are a nonresponder and I am a partial responder. We may never know why. But it highlights the fact that only through personal trials can we discover what works and what doesn't. And from those results we can gather clues as to what the underlying chemical imbalance is so that we can more accurately guide future treatments.
Posted by Tom on February 21, 2000, at 11:55:19
In reply to Re: Following up on Cam W. JohnL's SAMe thoughts..., posted by JohnL on February 21, 2000, at 6:10:13
> Placebo effect or not makes no difference to me. All that matters is that the patient gets well, and stays well. If SAMe does that for some people (it does) then I cheer the results.
>
> But as I've believed over and over, it all depends on the underlying genetic/biological problem and how well any particular drug influences that problem. There are responders and nonresponders to every drug out there. Response depends on the drug's influence on the underlying problem, which could be one of many, or a blend of several.
>
> I could care less what marketing or advertising has to say about SAMe. I ignore the hype. I looked at the controlled scientific studies for guidance. As Cam mentioned, they can be full of errors, but I much prefer basing drug choices on clinical studies than marketing hype or trendy fashions. There's never any guarantee, but at least I try to stack the odds in my favor. It was the result of reading all the controlled studies on SAMe, which date back to the early 1980's (SAMe is by no means a new discovery). Millions of people have been using it succesfully in Europe for decades. I'm sure millions of others there found it useless.
>
> From my own personal experience from numerous short trials (lost count), I know for a fact, not hype, that SAMe does this for me: Provides immediate boost of energy, relieves a depressive slump in 2 days, helps the prescrip work better, boosts sex drive, lowers my chronic hip pain, gives me stomach gas, lowers my appetite, empties my wallet. I can expect all of these things any and every time I try SAMe at 800mg a day. But that's just me. That doesn't imply it will do the same with everyone.
>
> The greatest criticism of hype and media that I have is that they imply there is some miracle one-shoe-fits-all. As we all know from broken-hearted trials of different things, there is no one shoe that fits all. It all depends on the underlying problem. For some people, SAMe will help correct whatever that problem is. For others it won't. For yet others it will have a placebo effect, just like any prescrip does. You and I have both tried SAMe. From our personal trials we can reasonably conclude that you are a nonresponder and I am a partial responder. We may never know why. But it highlights the fact that only through personal trials can we discover what works and what doesn't. And from those results we can gather clues as to what the underlying chemical imbalance is so that we can more accurately guide future treatments.SAMe worked for me. I was ready to ditch it on day 4, because it was supposed to work in a matter of a few days. On day 6 it kicked in. Unfortunately I had to keep ramping up the dosage. At nearly $1 a pill it no longer became worth it to me. I was up to 6 pills a day and getting 30% reduction in my symptoms. But there is definitely something to SAMe. No placebo effect for me.
I think in time the thinking will change toward SAMe (and hopefully the price too!). I believe the levels can be increased much more than the 8 pills (1600 mgs) that the manufacturer recommends you not exceed.
Posted by carter on February 22, 2000, at 20:41:23
In reply to Re: Following up on Cam W. JohnL's SAMe thoughts..., posted by Cam W. on February 21, 2000, at 2:49:21
It's interesting to note, in the 'placebo' question, that a majority of the American studies
(all positive) predate the media and subsequent public hysteria over SAM-e.
How likely is it that a sugar pill could initiate spontaneous manic episodes in non-bipolars?
This is the end of the thread.
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