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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jamie on November 10, 1999, at 18:45:02
I see so many different names for selegiline. I thought I heard somewhere they are all basically the same but different in some ways. Is deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegiline, jumex all the exact same thing? Or are they somehow different variations?
Posted by Adam on November 10, 1999, at 19:38:09
In reply to deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegine, jumex..difference?, posted by jamie on November 10, 1999, at 18:45:02
> I see so many different names for selegiline. I thought I heard somewhere they are all basically the same but different in some ways. Is deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegiline, jumex all the exact same thing? Or are they somehow different variations?All are the exact same thing. There may be generic selegiline vs. name brand (Eldepryl), but it's all selegiline.
There is, of course, D-deprenyl, but it's not found in any appreciable amount in the marketed drug.
Posted by Antz on November 11, 1999, at 12:09:52
In reply to deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegine, jumex..difference?, posted by jamie on November 10, 1999, at 18:45:02
> I see so many different names for selegiline. I thought I heard somewhere they are all basically the same but different in some ways. Is deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegiline, jumex all the exact same thing? Or are they somehow different variations?
Does anyone know about the liquid form of deprenyl I think made by a company called discovery? I read that it is more potent and a "cleaner" version.
Thanks,
Antz
Posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:05:44
In reply to Re: deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegine, jumex..difference?, posted by Antz on November 11, 1999, at 12:09:52
"Discovery" is actually Discovery Experimental Development, Inc. (DEDI) They attempted to produce an ephedra plant extract containing
selegiline citrate in liquid form. Somerset pharmaceuticals attempted to sue DEDI to prevent them from marketing selegiline
citrate as a dietary supplement. They lost. DEDI in turn countersued Somerset, claiming that Somerset deliberately marketed
selegiline HCl contaminated with methampetamine in 1990, that this contaminated selegiline caused the death of countless patients,
and that Somerset deliberately attempted to cover this up. The suit names the FDA and the State of Florida (where Somerset is located)
as conspirators, deliberately allowing a controlled substance to be marketed and delivered to unsuspecting patients.My take on the situation is that DEDI is full of crap. That there might be trace amounts of methamphetamine in a selegiline preparation
is not suprising, given its chemistry. Unless there were large amounts of this drug present, I doubt a patient taking Eldepryl would even
experience any effects. People take enormous amounts of D-methampetamine all the time as a street drug, and it's rare that it kills
them outright, or even after repeated usage. Anyway, selegiline is metabolized into L-methamphetamine by the body, regardless of the source.
DEDI makes other specious and patently erroneous claims. One is that scientists have been attempting to purify selegiline from ephedra for 30
years, failing all the while to produce a stable and marketable form, and in 1991 only DEDI was ultimately successful because they used a
"citra gel" in their preparation. Absolutely ridiculous, contradicting decades of clincal and laboratory research on selegiline prior to this.
Another is that their product is fundamentally different and somehow safer because it contains "citrate" instead of "chloride". This is absurd.
Both are harmless conjugate bases of hydrocholric acid and citric acid, respectively. In selegiline HCl, a molecule of HCl forms a complex with
a molecule of selegiline and aids in stabilization and solubility. Since your stomach is full of concentrated HCl, the minute amounts added by
ingestion of Eldepryl are not worth worrying about. A solution containing either acid in reasonable concentrations, or citrate or chloride salts
will not in any way change the nature of selegiline dissolved in it. Clearly these people feign zero knowledge about chemistry.DEDI also offers up the results of a 1995 study published in the British Medical Journal, where Parkinson's patients taking Eldepryl and L-dopa
were twice as likely to die as patients taking L-dopa alone in a given time, as evidence of Somerset's criminal conduct. While this is indeed a
disturbing finding, it does not follow that it is a result of methamphetamine contamination, or that selegiline citrate would necessarily fare any
better. A 1998 article in the same journal, and another in the Journal Neurology that same year report findings that do not support the results
of the 1995 study. It's certainly something to think about, but hardly incrimiating evidence.DEDI wants to market liquid selegiline citrate as an over-the-counter supplement, and did so for a short time in Mexico. They claim the FDA wishes
to prevent them from doing this because the FDA and Somerset are conspiring together to drive them out of buisiness. Again, rubbish. If DEDI has managed
to produce a suitably pure and active extract of selegiline, the idea that this could be sold without a prescription or the close supervision of a
physician is outrageous. Being a chemical capable of acting as an irreversible and non-specific inhibitor of monoamine oxidase as sufficient doses,
it would be dangerous and potentially deadly to market it without the proper controls, and it certainly would never gain such approval in this country
under any circumstances.I wouldn't assume that all pharmaceutical companies behave ethically 100% of the time. But DEDI's claims are pure fantasy. I wouldn't buy anything from
them just out of principle, but I also would have serious doubts about any product made by a company capable of making such assinine claims.A web page on the subject is here:
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/19990706.htm
It is a libertarian screed (in counterpoint to my own ;)), but worth reading for a laugh, I guess.
> > I see so many different names for selegiline. I thought I heard somewhere they are all basically the same but different in some ways. Is deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegiline, jumex all the exact same thing? Or are they somehow different variations?
>
> Does anyone know about the liquid form of deprenyl I think made by a company called discovery? I read that it is more potent and a "cleaner" version.
>
> Thanks,
> Antz
Posted by JohnL on November 12, 1999, at 3:27:24
In reply to Re: deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegine, jumex..difference?, posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:05:44
Wow Adam. You really know your stuff. I found your post very interesting and quite thorough. Thanks for the great input. It never ceases to amaze me about the incredible knowledge that is contained within the brains that hang out at this board. Nice job. After reading your thorough case against liquid discovery, I can't imagine anyone wasting their money on it.I also wonder the same thing as jamie...what's the diff with all the deprenyl names? What's the diff between generic and brand? Any diff? How come some people like one but not another? If it's all the same stuff it shouldn't matter. I'm confused.
Posted by Adam on November 12, 1999, at 13:00:16
In reply to Re: deprenyl, l-deprenyl, selegine, jumex..difference?, posted by JohnL on November 12, 1999, at 3:27:24
I nver knew any more about chemistry than your average science undergrad, and have forgotten a great deal.
I actually had to work very hard to do passingly well in O-Chem. The misinformation presented by DEDI is
simply and obviously outside of the realm of science. I'm sure there are chemists at DEDI who are aware of
everything I noted and more. I think their representative is unscrupulous, and appealing to the fears and
misconceptions of those less informed and more inclined to distrust the government.I don't think there is a difference with all the deprenyl names. Many chemicals have a variety of names,
and it just seems selegiline has accumulated a couple more than average. Typically drugs have a generic name
and a "brand name(s)" (selegiline HCl, Eldepryl; fluoxetine HCl, Prozac). This gets complicated especially
when different brand names get used in different countries. As far as brand name or generic goes, I guess I
have a bit of an irrational preference for the brand name because, like any "brand name" item, there is the
preconception of higher quality. It could very well be that there is no appreciable difference in quality
between Eldepryl (Somerset) and selegiline from another source.>
> Wow Adam. You really know your stuff. I found your post very interesting and quite thorough. Thanks for the great input. It never ceases to amaze me about the incredible knowledge that is contained within the brains that hang out at this board. Nice job. After reading your thorough case against liquid discovery, I can't imagine anyone wasting their money on it.
>
> I also wonder the same thing as jamie...what's the diff with all the deprenyl names? What's the diff between generic and brand? Any diff? How come some people like one but not another? If it's all the same stuff it shouldn't matter. I'm confused.
This is the end of the thread.
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