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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 8:32:35
Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...
Posted by Sean on October 11, 1999, at 12:10:30
In reply to Phenytoin aka Dilantin??, posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 8:32:35
> Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
>
> Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...I do know about this from reading Smart Drugs and
Nutrients, a classic in brain supplementation.Phenytoin is an anticonvulsant and as such, has
similar pharmacoactivity to other anticonvulsants
used to treat epilepsy. Some forms of depression,
most notably bipolar disorder and recurrent unipolar
depression, seem to have a quasi-ictal origin.The idea for using anticonvulsants for mood
disorders comes from a rather famous paper by Post
who discussed the idea of "kindling" in relation
to recurrent emotional disorders. It has been
known for years that untreated epilepsy seems to
get worse and siezures increase in frequency. This
worsening effect was also observed in animal
models of epilepsy. So, if recurrent depressions
have a similar etiology, maybe the same drugs
might work?In fact they do for some people. Whether kindling
is a reality in emotional disorders is a
subject of ongoing debate. Meanwhile, lots of
people are being helped by these drugs.I don't know about the taste in your mouth, but
people with depression experience all manner
of odd somatic disturbances. I have smell
hallucinations for example. Disturbances in our
olfactory/taste perceptions during depression are
understandable in terms of a general disturbance
to the limbic system where circuits of smell,
taste, and mood are innervated in close proximity.But enough with theory! I think you should try
dilantin and post you response here. We's all like
to know your experience...Good luck,
Sean.
Posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 13:58:43
In reply to Re: Phenytoin aka Dilantin??, posted by Sean on October 11, 1999, at 12:10:30
Sean,
Thanks for your comments. BTW, what does quasi-ictal mean??? As for trying it, we shall see...
> Some forms of depression,
> most notably bipolar disorder and recurrent unipolar depression, seem to have a quasi-ictal origin.
>
> But enough with theory! I think you should try
> dilantin and post you response here. We's all like to know your experience...
>
>
Posted by Sean on October 11, 1999, at 17:36:43
In reply to Re: Phenytoin aka Dilantin?? -- quasi-ictal????, posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 13:58:43
> Sean,
>
> Thanks for your comments. BTW, what does quasi-ictal mean??? As for trying it, we shall see...
>
> > Some forms of depression,
> > most notably bipolar disorder and recurrent unipolar depression, seem to have a quasi-ictal origin.
> >
> > But enough with theory! I think you should try
> > dilantin and post you response here. We's all like to know your experience...
> >
> >Well, ictal means siezure related and quasi means,
"kinda" so I guess I'm saying "kinda siezure-ish"!Ictal is also part of the brand name for
Lamotrigine >>> Lamictal, which is an anticonvulsant...
I love words!Sean.
Posted by Bob on October 12, 1999, at 8:52:41
In reply to Re: Phenytoin aka Dilantin?? -- quasi-ictal????, posted by Sean on October 11, 1999, at 17:36:43
> Ictal is also part of the brand name for
> Lamotrigine >>> Lamictal, which is an anticonvulsant...
> I love words!Okay, I know with these quasi-latin drug names, that first a is supposed to be a short vowel sound. BUT, if we were to assume instead that it follows Standard English pronunciation, a vcv combination would mean the first vowel would be prounced as a long a. So
Lamictal -- seizures so lame, you don't even know they're there.
Nah!
Bob
Posted by Sean on October 12, 1999, at 13:25:42
In reply to Lame-ictal????, posted by Bob on October 12, 1999, at 8:52:41
> > Ictal is also part of the brand name for
> > Lamotrigine >>> Lamictal, which is an anticonvulsant...
> > I love words!
>
> Okay, I know with these quasi-latin drug names, that first a is supposed to be a short vowel sound. BUT, if we were to assume instead that it follows Standard English pronunciation, a vcv combination would mean the first vowel would be prounced as a long a. So
>
> Lamictal -- seizures so lame, you don't even know they're there.
>
> Nah!
> BobGood one Bob. Wouldn't it be fun to be the people
who named drugs? I think there is big money in it.
Applied semiotics really. I don't know where they
got Edronax for reboxetine though, cause that
sounds like a loser name to me.
Posted by Bob on October 12, 1999, at 16:38:44
In reply to Re: Lame-ictal - Ha ha ha!, posted by Sean on October 12, 1999, at 13:25:42
> I don't know where they
> got Edronax for reboxetine though, cause that
> sounds like a loser name to me.Well, that's probably because it was named by two losers, named Ed and Ron, who got lucky and were the first to synthesize the drug, but nowhere near creative enough to come up with a name for it.
If you can't break into the naming business, there's always slogans. I mean, with real life slogans like "That Zoloft Smile!", it can't be all that hard.
Smilin' Bob
Posted by jamie on October 12, 1999, at 17:39:59
In reply to Re: Naming drugs, posted by Bob on October 12, 1999, at 16:38:44
Its easy how they named Effexor. Same reason I call it side effexor.
Posted by Sean on October 12, 1999, at 19:46:05
In reply to Phenytoin aka Dilantin??, posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 8:32:35
> Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
>
> Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...Don't forget the ever popular "Prozac Moment"...
Posted by Paxil on October 12, 1999, at 21:45:04
In reply to Drug names, posted by Sean on October 12, 1999, at 19:46:05
> > Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
> >
> > Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...
>
> Don't forget the ever popular "Prozac Moment"...>> Or how bout,"NEW Paxil, now with wings.
Posted by Phil on October 12, 1999, at 21:59:18
In reply to Re: Drug names, posted by Paxil on October 12, 1999, at 21:45:04
> > > Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
> > >
> > > Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...
> >
> > Don't forget the ever popular "Prozac Moment"...
>
> >> Or how bout,"NEW Paxil, now with wings.??Whoops. Previous post was from Phil. I haven't changed my name to Paxil. Or how bout the "New Lithium camera for those bipolarized moments."
Posted by Noa on October 12, 1999, at 23:22:02
In reply to Re: Drug names, posted by Phil on October 12, 1999, at 21:59:18
what would happen if we banned xes and zees?
BTW, drug names are getting to be so similar, because everyone wants those xes and zees, that pharmacists are mixing them up, which can be quite dangerous.
Posted by Noa on October 12, 1999, at 23:22:54
In reply to Re: Drug names, posted by Noa on October 12, 1999, at 23:22:02
the doctors' handwriting is part of the problem.
Posted by dj on October 13, 1999, at 0:15:32
In reply to Re: Drug names--oh yeah, one more thing about that, posted by Noa on October 12, 1999, at 23:22:54
Going back to the original thread focus I read up a bit about Dilantin and it has some wonky side effects. One less common one is some bizarre disease (Pyronies or some such thing) which results in disfiguration of penises...that would take one's mind of anorgasmia, etc...
Scanning some more bookstore shelves in the natural product section came across some references to phenylalanine which in additon to being an appetite suppressant also boosts dopamine and has apprently helped some with depression. Anyone have experience with that or in the form DLPA.
BTW, it would be GREAT if folks would take a moment to DELETE the previous thread notes before adding their comments, unless there is a bit that is directly relevant. Besides being courteous to all it would cut down on clutter!!
Posted by Brandon on October 13, 1999, at 0:34:21
In reply to Re: Drug names--oh yeah, one more thing about that, posted by Noa on October 12, 1999, at 23:22:54
> the doctors' handwriting is part of the problem.
Celebrex a drug used for arthritis could be mixed with Celexa.
Posted by Bob on October 13, 1999, at 12:28:05
In reply to Re: Amino Acid -- phenylalanine -- DLPA?? & delet, posted by dj on October 13, 1999, at 0:15:32
Phenylalanine is, of course, one of the components of Aspartame (along with aspartic acid). If you check out www.nutrasweet.com, they go to great lengths to argue how aspartame is not the cause of every known ill-defined ailment under the sun. Some of these are with respect to cognitive, mood, and weight control issues. While vigorously denouncing any negative claims, about the best they could offer about positive effects all pretty much were similar to that great advertising slogan -- "100% pure Florida orange juice, when part of a complete and balanced diet, can be helpful in lowering your risk to several forms of cancer."
Bob
Posted by Sean on October 13, 1999, at 12:43:24
In reply to Phenytoin aka Dilantin??, posted by dj on October 11, 1999, at 8:32:35
> Scanning some shelves in the local mega-bookstore I came across the title: A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked : Including an Autobiography and the Clinical Section of the Broad Range of Use of Phenytoin by Jack Dreyfus. The title indicated that the authour, a prominent U.S. financier, had developed depression and used the above drug, commonly used for epilepsy to treat his depression.
>
> Anyone know anything about this drug and/or case?. A scan of the book's contents indicated that the author has since been on a fruitless quest to have the drug issued as an AD, which included meeting with R. Raygun, who was president at the time. From the bits I read the book was not especially well written. However the bit that caught my eye was his reasoning about his depression being like an electrical storm in his body, which led to him testing out Dilantin. There's a line in it where he notes that after taking the medication he noted that he no longer had the flat taste in his mouth, the same one I've been experiencing by the sounds of it...something which NO-ONE on this board or off has been able to shed any light on. Go figure...Open the pod bay door Haldol...
Posted by andrewb on October 13, 1999, at 17:47:53
In reply to Re: Amino Acid -- phenylalanine -- DLPA?? & delet, posted by dj on October 13, 1999, at 0:15:32
I have tried phenylalanine for depression but it didn’t help me. I experienced racing thoughts, iritability and restlessness without any improvement in mood. This, I’ve read, indicates I didn’t have low levels of 2 phenyl-ethylamine (2-PEA). Some depresssed people have low levels of 2-PEA and can experience an antidepressant effect when taking the precursor to 2-PEA, phenylalanine. Individuals with low 2-PEA levels tend to have atypical depression; overeating, hypersomnia and mood worse in the P.M. Interestingly, these individuals also tend to binge on chocolate, which supposedly contains 2-PEA. Unfortunatley phenylalanine’s antidepressant effect is relativlely short lived, after a few weeks subjects become tolerant to it. Basically 2-PEA has an amphetimine like effect on the brain. I can’t remember, but it may be actually chemical related to amphetamines.
Phenylalanine can be combined with selegeline to help with depression. The selegeline slows the metabolization of 2-PEA (among other things) while phenylalanine supplies the precursor to 2-PEA. See Bob’s ‘Tips’ page under a keyword search for ‘selegeline’ for more information.
Does phenylalanine also increase dopamine levels? Yes and no. Phenlyaline converts also to tyrosine, an amino acid which converts to dopamine. But, as anyone who has taken tyrosine can tell you, more tyrosine doesn’t mean a proportionate increase in dopamine pathway activity. The body has some mechanism(s) that limit the amount of dopamine that can be produced from the tyrosine that we eat.
Posted by dj on October 14, 1999, at 17:59:54
In reply to phenylalanine, posted by andrewb on October 13, 1999, at 17:47:53
What's the deal with tyrosine which is often flagged in some of the alternatives literature. Did you, andrewb, and others try it to no positive effect or???
> Phenlyaline converts also to tyrosine, an amino acid which converts to dopamine. But, as anyone who has taken tyrosine can tell you, more tyrosine doesn’t mean a proportionate increase in dopamine pathway activity. The body has some mechanism(s) that limit the amount of dopamine that can be produced from the tyrosine that we eat.
Posted by dj on October 14, 1999, at 20:35:17
In reply to Re: What about tyrosine?, posted by dj on October 14, 1999, at 17:59:54
If you take one amino acid on an empty stomach, it may build up to high levels in the blood and brain, causing useful effects. A number of individual amino acids are available in health-food stores. They are not cheap, and I do not recommend taking them unless you can verify that they produce beneficial changes. Here are the ones I have experience with:
L-tryptophan is the metabolic precursor of serotonin, one of the neurotransmitters used by the brain to carry information from one part of the nervous system to another. Serotonin has general sedative effects. In theory, raising the level of L-tryptophan in the brain will cause increased production of serotonin and natural sedation. For that reason this amino acid has become popular as a natural aid to sleep.
I do not recommend using any sleeping aids, natural or not, on a regular basis. A few year sago, doctors linked L-tryptophan to a rare disease, eosinophilic myalgia syndrome, that is very painful and can be fatal. It is likely that the problem was a contaminant in one brand of L-tryptophan from a Japanese company that changed its manufacturing process. Nonetheless, the Food and Drug Administration will not allow the amino acid back on the market. If you have any old bottles of L-tryptophan on hand, throw them out.
By the way, the "L" in L-tryptophan designates the form of the molecule. Amino acids are asymmetrical and so can exist in right-handed and left-handed forms that are mirror images of each other. Chemists call them "D" and "L." The body uses only L-forms to build its proteins.
Phenylalanine, the precursor of norepinephrine and dopamine, both excitatory neurotransmitters, has an opposite effect from tryptophan. L-phenylalanine can be helpful to some people who suffer from depression. D-phenylalanine works differently. It may prevent breakdown of the brain's natural narcotics and so may help some people with chronic pain. People with high blood pressure should be cautious about taking the L-form of this amino acid; it may aggravate that condition. DL-phenylalanine, also known as DLPA, is a mixture of the two forms. It is less likely to raise blood pressure and may be useful as an adjunctive treatment for depression. It is the product I usually recommend. You will find all three forms in most health-food stores.
If you do not have high blood pressure and want to experiment with phenylalanine for relief of depression or for increased energy, try taking 1,000-1,500 milligrams of DLPA on an empty stomach first thing in the morning, again with 100 milligrams of vitamin B-6, 500 milligrams of vitamin C, and a piece of fruit or glass of fruit juice. See if you notice a change in arousal, energy level, or mood.
If you do have high blood pressure, start with 100 milligrams of DLPA and raise the dose gradually over a few weeks as you monitor blood pressure.
L-tyrosine is also a precursor of norepinephrine and dopamine, even closer to them than phenylalanine is. If you do not get results with DLPA, try L-tyrosine in the same way. Be equally cautious about this substance if you have high blood pressure.
http://www.pathfinder.com/drweil/database/display/0,1412,4,00.html
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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