![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by dove on October 7, 1999, at 9:21:20
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by Susan Jane on October 7, 1999, at 2:17:01
It seems the workplace is one of the toughest enviroments to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Many people who are ignorant of or never been exposed to mental disorders hold the viewpoint that it's either an excuse (which they'll use to their full advantage) or the person with the illness is completely bonkers (and you better not get close and you better walk on eggshells around them).
My husband's Boss has a severe depression/paranoia/anxiety disorder. He takes meds and tries to keep others from knowing or discussing this, he's very self-conscious and for legit reasons.
The boss had a get-together at his house where some of the people were drinking and the question was asked about drinking while on psychotropic meds. This proceeded to cause great distress to the boss, who didn't want it discussed. Aside from the man's great discomfort, some of the spouses at the party spoke up about their psycho-active meds, side-effects and so on. No one spoke of why they were taking these meds or how the meds were working in concern to the symptoms. I felt like I couldn't say anything, not having the knowledge or the ability to speak about this taboo subject even in this somewhat relaxed enviroment (I'm glad I left it alone but the next time I'm opening my mouth).
My husband has first hand experience with mental illness and has lived with me for 9 years :-) So it doesn't bother him in the least. The only complaint he has ever had about his absolute favorite boss is the moodiness that directly effects their relationship. On a given day the boss is very friendly, laid-back and the next day it'll swing to the opposite pole, uptight, agitated, sharp-tongued ect..
Now, for my confession, I tend to view these behaviors as mood-effective and tied to his illness. My husband actually gets angry with me, stating that it's just human, and normal, everyone has mood-swings everyday and it is no reflection on the mental stability relating to the work-enviroment or supervisoral qualifications. My husband is very literal, as in he takes everything at face-value, no light and shadows for this guy :-)Which seems to be a positive quality at home and in the work-place most of the time. He is immune to office and social politics, which is where much of the bigotry and discrimination emerges from.
I think my long-winded point is. the people who are ignorant or afraid or biased need to be changed by personal contact and relationships. They need to see the real person behind the facade even if that means clearly seeing the illnesses that are quite common in our society. To see your co-workers as people with problems just like you, to view the co-workers spouses in the same light, knowing that they too have mental disorders just as they have so-called "physical" ones. The boss, the boss's spouse, children ect.. We must judge people by their actions and the fruit of their actions and their intentions. If someone is out to get you, any excuse will do. Keep your guard up! If someone speaks from ignorance, inform them, show them, enlighten their dark-age brain with some insightful whup-a** for the mind.
People are people, in all their flawed human glory. Afraid and spiteful, deceitful and two-faced. They are also loyal and agreeable, supportive and able to learn from life experiences (theoretically :^P ) Show them your intentions, let them marvel at the fruit of your actions. And let them in, to see the real you when the right time arises. We can never be 'perfect' in thought, deed or action, neither can they. We all have failings and weaknesses, not because we're all mentally ill but because we're all human. We're just diagnosed while they live in obscure obliviousness.
Show them the light! and let them tremble :-)
dove
Posted by Sean on October 7, 1999, at 13:23:50
In reply to Workplace discrimination, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:56:50
> Nothing like a good dose of bigotry and prejudice to snap me out of a downspell -- I mean, *I* have the right to rip myself to shreds over absolutely nothing, but I'll be damned I'll allow anyone else to try to victimize me!
>
> As you may guess, I'm a bit, well, angry. I've talked about my job problems before, but I'm going to wait until I cool off before the next installment.
>
> In the meantime, I wanted to start this discussion. Has anyone else out there felt like they've been discriminated against due to your disorder at your workplace? How did you handle it? How did you recognize it? How did things end up?
>
> Please feel free to respond as that great sage of all millenia, Anonymous, or as Herbie the Elf Dentist (another clear case of workplace discrimination). Maybe we can help others from getting trapped, in defusing a situation before it starts ticking. I'd like to see some good come out of what I'm going through right now, since at my job the only thing that's coming out is a double helping of whup'ass that I'll be serving up soon enough.
>
> Grrrrrrrrrrr
> BobI sure have been discriminated - by my insurance
policy. I got so pissed off that I called our
human resources people, came "out", told them
they were in the middle ages and discriminatory.
Basically, they did not recognize psychiatry as
as "real" medical field and thus did not pay for
it. At $150 per visit, I was soon in the hole
and ended up doing phone-tag with my doc for
several years.Now they are better - but not free of discrim
ination: psychiatry costs me 3 times what
another doctor costs. I guess you say they went
from viewing psychiatry as "nothing" to 1/3 of
a normal doctor. Whatever... I remain pissed off
at the whole system.
Posted by hello kitty on October 7, 1999, at 19:10:39
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by Sean on October 7, 1999, at 13:23:50
heres a real kicker..I worked in an agency for at risk youth, residential, I was doing case management...and I also have suffered from depression, ptsd and anxiety for almost all of my life. I was a child in the system for many years and it follow naturally that my proffessional drive is to return the grace and assistance given to me.
My agency was making some very unsafe decisions about our clients, and some very innappropriate, unsafe events occured while I was there...I made the mistake of voicing my concern and dissapproval. Note that I had been very open and honest about my history of mental health issues, we were all very close knit and one could say....enmeshed..but thats a different post...
ANYWAY...afterI began to offer a voice of reason and call for change, I began to expereince discrimination in a very sick and twisted way. My co workers and finally my supervisor all played apart in directly taregting me. note this agency is and was non profit, but boy oh boy someone was getting PAID. in then end, I quit one day, after a co-worker called me a "fucking psycho" and was supported in that statemewnt by her (my) boss. they say I played the victim, but the truth is, I was the only person willing to truthsay..what I saw was disturbing, and my objections riled a lot of feathers. the worst part is, I miss my job terribly; working with my clients, teen girls, I experienced more satisfaction and wholeness than I ever imagined I could while doing a job. I found my "calling" and my spirit was soaring.
anyway, thats my story. sigh.
Posted by Noa on October 7, 1999, at 19:45:25
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by hello kitty on October 7, 1999, at 19:10:39
Now that you have nothing to lose, can you give a tip off call to the regulating authorities and let them do some closer monitoring?
Posted by bones on October 7, 1999, at 19:54:40
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by hello kitty on October 7, 1999, at 19:10:39
Kitty: Thanks for your story. We can all learn from it.
Do you regret disclosing the truth about yourself? It's a difficult call isn't it. You were "true" to something very integral about yourself. But ended up losing your "calling". I have a friend, she would determine that if this was indeed your avocation that the pull of the life force (i.e. God & your soul) would make it happen again. I guess I really, really do believe that too. If you have a desire and throw it out to the universe - it will come back to you fulfilled. (Not always in a neat/clean/tidy presentation.)
Posted by janey girl on October 7, 1999, at 20:05:24
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by bones on October 7, 1999, at 19:54:40
Everyone here seems so enlightened and positive
appear to have come to terms with this subject
and/or how they have overcome it. I lost my job
because of my suicide attempt and breakdown last
year... I know, because 2 months later they hired
two people to replace my "eliminated job."I now work in a field I once loved, but have outgrown,
and despise the game-playing, passive-aggressive
behavior of my bosses.At the age of 41, I'm changing careers -- from
advertising and web design to nursing. I need to take
care of a part of myself that wants, craves to help
people, rather than trying to sell them bullshit
messages and products.This new frontier is frightening, and I have no
idea how I'll afford it, but we'll all see.Since my depression, I've isolated significantly,
and while that feels "safe" to a degree, I am so
lonely and feel so needy. But it's so hard to let
anyone get close again.
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 20:13:52
In reply to All of you seem so enlightened...., posted by janey girl on October 7, 1999, at 20:05:24
> At the age of 41, I'm changing careers -- from
> advertising and web design to nursing. I need to take
> care of a part of myself that wants, craves to help
> people, rather than trying to sell them bullshit
> messages and products.Wait a sec ... someone who is LEAVING web design to become a nurse?! Just watch, janey girl, who you call "enlightened" around here. Like my grandma always said, When you point your finger at someone, there's always three pointing back your way.
So go ahead, call people "enlightened" ... all I have to say is it takes one to know one.
So there!
Bob=^)
Posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 23:14:14
In reply to Re: All of you seem so enlightened...., posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 20:13:52
I came out to NYC 4 years back to take a job on the faculty of the Education school at Fordham. Ed psych. At first it was all so heady ... but then the bottom started to fall out. I had lost faith in my job (that is, being a professor. Teaching is my vocation. I thought the two were supposed to go together -- professoring in a school of education and teaching. At Fordham, that was almost true -- certainly closer than other ed schools I know). My father had a second stroke. I had no social support network. Neither my office nor my apartment had any windows to speak of, so I was an urban cave dweller. I just crashed. I knew I was depressed, but I had always fooled myself into thinking I could deal with it, that I'd rid myself of it. Not only did that house of cards come crashing down, but my panic disorder kicked into high gear for the first time in my life. I'd go into work at ten, close my office door (sometimes no windows is a good thing), and shake. I played a lot of solitaire (Mac, Eric's Solitaire Sampler, the "Eight Off" game or whatever its called ... left that computer behind with more than 5,000 consectutive wins and no losses, just waiting for the next piece of fresh faculty meat to check it out ;^). I aggravated the hell out of my RSI. But mostly, I just shook. Then five minutes before I'd have to teach, I'd somehow pull myself together (it was teaching, after all), get up in front of my students, and I'd teach. I hid in my office for more than a year that way, smack in the middle of a department of school and counseling psychologists (who have some clinical training), and no one noticed. Or, if they did, no one was concerned enough to mention. I felt a great deal of guilt towards the end -- that I'd been living a lie ... they all wanted me to stay instead of quit. I resolved then to make sure on my new job that I'd make sure my boss (and my colleagues) knew, and that I'd keep it in my boss' mind by being frank and open about any changes in my treatment -- particularly my meds.
Well, that job has been a completely different story. I don't regret one bit being out about my disorder ... it may wind up working in my favor.
(Under the ADA, you have to tell in order to get protection, from what I have read)
The short of it, as far as I can tell, is this: My boss sees a capable, bright person -- certainly highly qualified for the job (and perhaps she sees that as a threat ... I've got no read on that) -- and then she sees drops in his performance from time to time. Putting one (disclosure of my disorder) and one (drop in performance) together just doesn't add up for her. She has never considered what effect it might have on my abilities. So, she thinks I'm unmotivated. That I'm a slacker. That I am "essentially undependable". And all this despite the clear evidence that my project's performance has continued to improve over the high degree of success we had the previous year.
Well, I have a meeting tomorrow I need to prepare for. I'm going to have to give a few people some math lessons, and see if they can learn from their mistakes (before I contact the EEOC ... I'd hate to see this place lose all its federal and state funding because it got its EEOC certification yanked).
I'll continue the soap opera this weekend, once I calm down again.
Bob
Posted by dj on October 7, 1999, at 23:37:40
In reply to about disclosure ..., posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 23:14:14
Well, Bob, hope it goes well for you in getting your message across effectively!!
> I'll continue the soap opera this weekend, once I calm down again.
>
> Bob
Posted by dove on October 8, 1999, at 9:12:18
In reply to Re: about disclosure ..., posted by dj on October 7, 1999, at 23:37:40
We're all here for you Bob! I hope you can make them see the light. Sending my positive energy your way with lots of love :-)
dove~> I'll continue the soap opera this weekend, once I calm down again.
>
> Bob
Posted by jennyann on October 8, 1999, at 10:40:30
In reply to Re: Support for Bob!, posted by dove on October 8, 1999, at 9:12:18
Bob,
I too am sending you peace and healing...you know your own power and the strnegth and compassion with which you support others on this board is amazing...
thinkin about ya,
Jennyann
and
hellokitty(who's powers of enlightnement and supreme sparkle never cease to awe me....)
Posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 12:14:41
In reply to Re: Support for Bob!, posted by jennyann on October 8, 1999, at 10:40:30
As I've said before, words fail to describe this community.
Well, the meeting went as expected. You Arlo fans out there will appreciate this: my first thought, stepping out of the office, was, "Doc ... I wanna kill." Those folks "above" me have pushed this from blind rage to a comedy of the absurd. So, only one thing left to do, as far as I'm concerned ...
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant (excepting Alice)..."
I'll sing that on my way down to the EEOC. All I want is a case of blind justice.
Bob
Posted by dove on October 8, 1999, at 14:53:23
In reply to Thanks!!, posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 12:14:41
Arlo Guthrie, now there's someone I haven't heard in awhile. I was such a fan as a teen-ager and yes, he was a bit before my time. I was a hippy-punk, as diabolical as that sounds.
I went to hear him live at this Catholic University a half hour away when I was 16. I wasn't familiar with the lay-out of the campus and walked in the back-door of this Hall. He was tuning his guitar, I stood there dumb-struck, he was so much older than in Alice's Restaurant and was bigger around, gray hair, wow! I grabbed an opened bill envelope from the carpet bag that I called my purse. I stretched my arm towards him with a quiet and squeeky "I'm so honored, can you sign this?" He giggled, really and signed it, handing it back with a grin. He then asked me my age and if my parents were the ones who introduced me to his music. He was one so nice and down-to-earth. It is one of, not many, good and warm memories from my teen years.
Bob, thanks for reminding me :-) And, I hope you get your justice and even if it's not blind, hopefully it'll lean your way! (We all will put our weight behind you.)
dove~
Posted by janey girl on October 8, 1999, at 16:23:26
In reply to Re: Thanks!!, posted by dove on October 8, 1999, at 14:53:23
Bob,
Yes, I can hear the line now... "I wanna kill... I wanna kill."
Funny you mention it, because when I have reached
that point of frustration and complete amazement
at the ignorance/obliqueness/absurdity... etc.,
I think of the same line in Alice's Restaurant.I wish there were more of us in the workplace who
were "out," so when we came upon this "phenomena"
of ignorance/obliqueness/absurdity... etc., we could
sneak into the stairwell for a smoke, or meet after
work for a drink or soda and get it out of our system.Bob, I'm right there with you when you go to the
EEOC. You're not alone in this endeavor.. remember,
many of us are walking beside you and standing
behind you.BTW, I sent off nine letters to scholarship and
grant-making machines to help supplement my lack
of income during my nurses training. Also, stopped
by the teaching hospital in town and put in an
application, managed to get a short interview, and,
for the first time in my life wrote on an application
for "Reason for leaving your job" LACK OF PERSONAL
SATISFACTION.Feels good to tell the truth, even better when
they understand what you're meaning is.janey girl
Posted by Bones on October 8, 1999, at 19:45:27
In reply to Re: All of you seem so enlightened...., posted by Bob on October 7, 1999, at 20:13:52
Hit the target right on (as usual) Bob. So touched with your disclosure below. God bless you on your travels and for all of your help and advice. (You're also a GREAT read!!)
Posted by Bones on October 8, 1999, at 19:55:21
In reply to All of you seem so enlightened...., posted by janey girl on October 7, 1999, at 20:05:24
Forgive me if I seem like I've got it all together. Because I don't - life is very difficult - also a wonderful comedy.
I'm really saying hello, because there are some interesting parallels going on in our lives. I too am 41 years old, and have recently made the decision to return to complete the Nursing program I started over 23 years ago. (I quit because of my anxiety disorder - still undiagnosed.)
And, I too am worried about whether I can do it because of financial stresses. I'm working full-time right now and our family is really pretty reliant on my income. But I have a job that provides no "personal satisfaction", I'm totally unchallanged. I work with a bunch of engineers, and have somehow (destructively) filled the requested role of "office pet". (Don't read too much into that ... if you know what I mean ... wink, wink, nudge, nudge.) MEOW!!Anyway, I made my decision and gently stepped into the life flow. I'll let it carry me along until if and when I decided to step out.
Wishing you the best. Let's try to keep in touch.
Posted by janice on October 8, 1999, at 22:17:59
In reply to Re: All of you seem so enlightened...., posted by Bones on October 8, 1999, at 19:55:21
that is the word). From my estimates, I'd say about 25% of the population suffers from a mental disorder; and the large majority of them don't seem to know it.
Don't expect any rewards, but 'coming out' like this invariably helps the rest of us, and to a smaller degree the entire world. Janice
Posted by janey girl on October 8, 1999, at 22:26:25
In reply to Bob & Sean, you guys are trail blazers (I think , posted by janice on October 8, 1999, at 22:17:59
Bones,
Yes, let's definitely keep in touch. Hmm... yes
I do see a parallel. ~grins~Best to you, too.
janey girl
Posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 23:58:55
In reply to Re: Thanks!!, posted by dove on October 8, 1999, at 14:53:23
Pardon me if this gets verbose ... it just turned 11:11 (the Cosmic Hour), and it's a Friday night so I can stay up past my bedtime (tho I do have to teach tomorrow at 9:30 ...). Besides, I started this thread because I think I have a cautionary tale for all y'all. No point waiting till the story is finished, tho ... need to create some suspense, and it'd be so long I'd prolly crash Dr. Bob's server.
A quick aside on Arlo, tho. I first saw him opening for Harry Chapin, just a year before Harry died. It was the middle of Reagan's first term, and Selective Service had made it's return. So, Arlo made this speech about how he had happily retired this song of his, thinking he'd never have to sing about the Alice's Restaurant Thanksgiving Massacree again ... but he had to pull it out so he could do his part. That was the only show I've been to where the audience didn't want the warm-up band to leave. (Of course, Harry was fabulous as well). I don't know if this is a yearly event, but twice I've noticed Arlo playing Carnegie Hall on Thanksgiving Day since I moved to NYC ... haven't caught him there yet, tho. Anyway ...
A brief synopsis for those who don't want to thrash through old posts to discover our soap opera up till now:
June 98.
I've been on the job 1 yr, my project is doing great (I teach middle school teachers more hands-on ways of teaching science), I get a 4 out of 5 overall on my evaluation and a $2k raise. I also come off of paxil and onto wellbutrin, and what was a downhill slide for me wrt medications turns into a nasty rollercoaster. The wellbutrin made me psychotic (uncontrollable rage). Adding perphenazine (my first psychopharm cocktail! Ah!) removes the rage, but deflates me while (half) awake and severely aggravates my apnea. Enter prozac (July 98) to help the wellbutrin. But the prozac blocks an enzyme that removes the perphenazine from my system (a known interaction, I was told, but for doses of perphenazine 20x and greater than theminiscule dose I was getting). Over the next two months, my panic attacks return with a vengeance (couldn't take the subway when one hit, so I paid for several $20 cab rides from Midtown to Brooklyn to escape back home in the middle of the day). Extreme anxiety that came, it seemed, simply from being awake and grew throughout the day, only becoming reasonable when I was at home in bed. I'd give my girlfriend a hug in the morning before heading off to work, and I wouldn't be able to let go. Greater and greater cogwheeling (muscle rigidity), walking about as stiff and stooped as a warped board. After two months, my therapist dragged me to the ER (God bless you, Carol!) and stayed with me for hours (my girlfriend was halfway out on Long Island, evening classes). Ativan and Cogentin, followed by a week of zyprexa (from the hospital) and then a switch from wellbutrin/prozac/perphenazine to prozac/clonazepam (the later fit into my life like a piece of the puzzle I had never known I was missing). Prozac wasn't enough, so in came lithium. Then zoloft/lithium/clonazepam. Intolerance to anything more than 150mg of lithium led me to zoloft/nortriptylene/clonazepam. That's where I've been with meds since March or April. It keeps me stable, focused, assertive, and confident. Does nothing for my mood, aggravates my apnea, shoots my weight up 40 lbs and my cholesterol 80 points (so now I'm also on a steroid inhalent for the apnea and Lipitor for the chol). But it does help me cope with my boss, and just in the nick of time.So, reading that, you'd think that maybe, perhaps, I might have had some performance problems at work, right? Right. But over that year, I increased the number of teachers we were working with from 8 to 40, developed better science fairs for three of four project schools and the first one in twelve years for the fourth, and secured $90,000 in additional funding for our work. That's just to name a few things. So, ignoring the psych stuff for a moment and focusing on demonstrable results, answer me this: If I received a 4 of 5 on my comprehensive rating with a $2k raise LAST year, what should those figures be THIS year?
Well, from my boss' attitude in that year from June 98 to May 99, I knew it wasn't going to be reasonable. I kept her informed of every change in medication. She had been informed from day 1 about my disorders and the general nature of my on-going treatment.
June 9, 99
Performance review time. She rates me a 2.9 of 5 overall, with several 1's in some categories. She ignores the demonstrable facts of my successful performance, even while admitting that the project has improved, and provides as a rationale that I am, among other things, a procrastinator, unmotivated, not a team player, and (this is the one I truly love) "essentially undependable." In doing so she ignores the standards set up by our company for conducting these reviews -- standards that are based on observable behaviors.Do those terms sound familiar to anyone out there? Are they the sorts of things you fear to hear at work? I'm a white male from a midwest working class family. I could intellectually grasp how prejudice, how stigma could be degrading and/or maddening. Now I know from first-hand experience. Thanks to my cocktail at the time, it was rage that I felt ... just what I needed to feel. A year earlier or so, and this all would have turned me into a quiverring mess.
Well, in case you've missed this before as well, my highest level of training is as a research psychologist. I focus on how people learn. One of my primary areas of expertise is motivation. Motivation, procrastination, dependability -- these are all internal mental states that need to be operationally defined, or stated in terms of observable behaviors. None of any consequence were given.
Knowing beforehand that I was probably going to get railroaded, I read up a little (but nowhere near enough) on the Americans with Disabilities Act. About all I came out with from it was "reasonable accommodations". So I threw that out as my only protection against my boss' unjustifiable behavior. The previous year, my boss had a biological condition that affected her job performance, and for which my company gave her a (rather generous) reasonable accommodation -- she gave birth to her third child. In fact, the accommodation continues ... even tho she has a nanny, she works from home at least once a week. Anyway, I told her flat out -- I have a biological condition affecting my performance, I deserve that reasonable accommodations be made as well. She agreed. The problem was, neither of us knew what those accommodations should be (like I said, not enough research). We finished the meeting agreeing that we would watch my performance for problems and working out what those accommodations would be.
So, thinking it came to a reasonable end, I relaxed and went about my job. I forgot that a part of that meeting was supposed to be a discussion of any pay increase. Not only did I not get one, she didn't even have the courtesy to tell me and to offer a reason.
July 15.
My boss' last day before a month on vacation, and what does she do? She "serves" me with two letters. One requires me to obtain statements from my doctors stating, with respect to the attached copy of my job description, what reasonable accommodations were required. The other set a schedule for a second review process, starting when she got back and covering two months, during which my performance would be evaluated. If I did not improve my performance to satifactory or above in all twelve areas of the instrument, that would be grounds for dismissal.I would like to point out a few matters of fact relevant to this action:
1-nowhere in our written company policy is such a procedure described, nor are allowances made for creating them.
2-Our written company policy specifically refers to our "performance rating", in the singular, as the sole measure of our evaluation in terms of reasons for dismissal.
3-The only thing in the whole letter that WAS from our written company policy was that unsatisfactory performance would be grounds for dismissal.if you haven't noticed yet, this is the kicker:
4-This whole process was invented and imposed upon me **after** I had asked that reasonable accommodations be made for my disorder.
So, I had a month to stew over this. Her mistake. When I'm hot-angry, all my social graces fly out the window. I stutter. I stammer. I can't keep a straight line of reasoning in my head when I get that mad. But she gave me enough time to turn that anger ice cold, and she gave me time to do the research I should have done in the first place.
I won't drag out the intervening months. I met with our HR director one week before boss returned. HR's reaction to my concerns was completely discouraging ... she said that "we don't do any hand-holding for our employees." Very comforting. Very reassuring that I will get an impartial review from her. What just about slayed me was her condescending "Oh, I've been on zoloft, too" speech. So, once in her life, she felt down and her GP gave her a month or two of zoloft -- and she thinks she feels my pain.
I know a few good gestures in Italian that would eloquently convey my opinion on that. (Like I said, Janice ... I'm no Puritan ;^)
We have the first review meeting on 8/15. I state my objection to the process. It gets brushed aside. I come prepared with statements from my therapist and my psychopharmer about "reasonable accommodations." HR decides that five of seven are "covered by company policy anyway" (but can we see if policy is being followed here? helloooooo?) One of those was "access to an understanding and supportive supervisor". Boss objected to it. I snorted under my breath. HR acted as if she heard nothing. HR and Boss agree on two accommodations which basically say "give Bob more frequent, supportive feedback." And how do we agree that this should be done? HR decides that a suggestion I had made on JUNE 9!!! should be put in place. The meeting ends with me giving them both a folder of educational information from www.nami.org and www.mentalhealth.com on my meds, my disorders, the ADA, and NAMI's suggestions to supervisors of people with depression.
Okay, I have to cut my boss a tiny slice of slack here. Over the next week, she read the material. She admits that my suggestion would be the best course of action. She even is supportive in meetings, when the verge of some apnea-induced sleep attack has me wobbling in my chair like a top.
HR has never given the slightest indication that she read anything I have ever handed her. Including the written response I am allowed by policy to file against my review. Which, I am proud to say, NEVER REFERS ONCE to my disability -- so much had been ignored, so much had been done wrong, that I had an eight page single-spaced response that dealt only in fact and policy. By the fourth edit, I even managed to remove all the invective and inflammatory statements. I never referred to my condition, I never asked for some mistake to be forgiven, I never mentioned the word "discrimination". I just wanted the facts of the past year recognized and accounted for.
So, what do you think happens with those written responses?
Today, 10 AM
The meeting can be summed up in one brief statement: My boss is right and I am wrong, because she is the boss. As for the statements of fact illustrating how my boss violated company standards and policy, HR says its not her job to second guess my boss. We have a small company. One HR person. One person above her, the CEO. I suppose its his job, then. It's clear by the end of the meeting that not only am I getting railroaded, there are now two locomotives on the train.You know, I spent the better part of 20 years telling myself that my problems were all "in my mind" (HAH! ain't it the truth!) All I needed to do was pull myself together. There was nothing seriously wrong with me. I was being a baby. I was wallowing in self-pity.
By the end of that meeting, those two had just about knocked me back 20 years. I came out doubting myself, thinking that I was making this all up. I was spittin' nails mad, but I was shaken as well (figuratively and literally -- they had me so upset that my left leg started bouncing uncontrollably, and my hands grabbed a pen and I couldn't stop uncapping and recapping it ... if it had gone on any longer, I bet I would have started rocking back and forth, hitting my head on the table).
Luckily the mad part of me remembered Arlo and the Alice's Restaurant Thanksgiving Massacree, and I made it down from 60th and Madison (the location of the NEW! DKNY store!!) to the World Trade Center. I almost turned back. I did stop to phone my therapist to warn her I might miss my appointment. Which reminds me ...
My therapist has been out of town the last two weeks. I would not have made it through this time without your support, without knowing that all I had to do was get on-line and I would find you here waiting with open arms. May God bless every one of you (even dj! =^P)
Anyway, that's enough for this post. That's all the bad news. I'm going to enter all the good news and the moral of the story in a separate post, so you don't have to scroll through all the crap to get to what may help you most. After the EEOC and therapy and coming back home to share this with you and getting some big wet kisses from my dogs, it turns out that this was a pretty good day afterall. But I've been typing for 2 hours and I gotta teach web graphic design to Photoshop newbies in a little over eight hours....
Cheers,
Bob
To be continued ...
Don't you just HATE that? ...
Posted by Deborah R. on October 9, 1999, at 7:31:42
In reply to The Story to Date (next post for moral later), posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 23:58:55
>
>
> To be continued ...
>
>
> Don't you just HATE that? ...Bob I sat here stunned, reading your story - you are going through so much and yet you still make the time to keep in touch with your mates on this web-site. I said this once before I think, but I reckon you are fantastic - you deserve to get through all this crap with the result that YOU want. I wish you all the best and wish I was a wiser or more eloquent person or something so I could give you a big cheer, or 'start a wave' in the words that I am typing. Hang in there.
Oh - one more thing if you don't mind me asking - it sounds as though you work heaps - do you ever get the time just for yourself to just hang out or whatever, sleep-in, that sort of thing?
Bye for now
Deb.
Posted by Noa on October 9, 1999, at 9:49:44
In reply to Workplace discrimination, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:56:50
Bob,
I don't know if you noticed my reticence in this thread. I have been feeling badly and want to explain.
I guess a good word to describe my reaction is awe. I am in awe of you, in two senses of the word awe: admiration and fear. Your activism is something I definitely respect and admire, but it also scares me. It is not my own personal style, and making such big waves makes me nervous. I guess I am afraid for you, too, feeling really unsure of whether the approach you are taking will serve your best interests. I tend to be non confrontational, with a few notable exceptions in my life. So, when I read about what you are going through, I get nervous for you and about you. I truly believe attitudes toward depression and other illnesses need to change, but I find myself asking, "is Bob getting his priorities right? Is the 'cause' more important than taking care of himself?"
I hope you don't mind my candor.Noa
Posted by dj on October 9, 1999, at 12:15:07
In reply to The Story to Date (next post for moral later), posted by Bob on October 8, 1999, at 23:58:55
If only Gawd would listen, eh Bob. Thanks for your cheeky blessing and good luck sorting our your employer situation. Unfortunately they usually have the upper hand and to take them on, no matter how righteous your case can be can lead to martyrdom. Here's wishing otherwise for you. Any fella who can write as eloquently and passionately as you and also imitate Bill the Cat deserves to prosper. ACKkkk
>. I would not have made it through this time without your support, without knowing that all I had to do was get on-line and I would find you here waiting with open arms. May God bless every one of you (even dj! =^P)
>
Posted by Adam on October 9, 1999, at 16:47:02
In reply to Workplace discrimination, posted by Bob on October 6, 1999, at 23:56:50
I think there is really no solution to this problem except one thing:
Lawsuits.
hello kitty, nobody, NOBODY has the right to call you a fucking psycho.
If I could prove someone at the workplace did that to me, they would be
fucking busted. At that point they crossed a serious line, and displayed
behaviour that essentially gives you recourse. I'd check with a lawyer
and see what your chances are.If anybody, ANYBODY tried to hurt me at my job because of my illness, so
long as I was doing my job satisfactorily (which I do), I really wouldn't
hesitate to use the harshest and most damaging methods necessary to
retalliate. It's the new millenium, folks. A good portion of our society
is enlightened, and anyway ignorance is not an excuse. Show these people
the same consideration as someone who would call you a nigger or a faggot
to your face. They deserve nothing less than the worst thing the legal
system can do to them. It's that simple.I understand not all cases will be won. But, well, you have to fight when
someone screws you like that. The civil rights movement wasn't furthered
because people played nice. Some assholes had to get sued or arrested.
More will in the future until the fight is won.I don't go around broadcasting the fact I have suffered from depression, but
I have been open about with with my supervisors at work, and they have been
very supportive. You know why? Because they are sensitive, educated, responsible
people who have some clue as to what brings out human worth and potential.
Someone who isn't capable of showing the same consideration is an intolerant,
ignorant and counterproductive yahoo who is not only hurting you but society.
Give them the word up.
Posted by Bob on October 9, 1999, at 21:21:41
In reply to Re: Workplace discrimination, posted by Adam on October 9, 1999, at 16:47:02
> Oh - one more thing if you don't mind me asking - it sounds as though you work heaps - do you ever get the time just for yourself to just hang out or whatever, sleep-in, that sort of thing?
Deb, you are just too sweet. Thank you. As for this question -- not really. That's life in the big city. When I lived in Ann Arbor, I was getting paid $13k a year, had a car to support, and I was living fine. Now in NYC, my salary is 4 times that plus I make another, oh, $10k or so thru my teaching, I don't have a car, and I'm struggling to make ends meet. So I do work a lot. I wish I had more time to spend with my dogs out in this beautiful park we have right behind our apartment. I wish I had time to bike around Manhattan and finish my photoessay on it's bridges (well, okay, so far I've only got the Brooklyn Bridge covered...). I wish I had the time to funnel my creativity thru my personal web site. Right now, Sundays are **my** day. I used to love to sleep in, but sleeping in till 8 AM is good enough for me nowadays ... too much to do whether its work or housework or some relaxing activity. I'm actually finding that I like not sleeping in too late. (I know, I know ... feckin' icehole bastage cheerful MORNING PERSON!!!)
>I truly believe attitudes toward depression and other illnesses need to change, but I find myself asking, "is Bob getting his priorities right? Is the 'cause' more important than taking care of himself?" I hope you don't mind my candor.
Noa-I wouldn't expect anything else from a good friend, so no, I don't mind. Thank you. If you read my latest post on the Melatonin thread, then you might see that some part of me, maybe the "real me" deep inside, thinks I can fly. I've been in other "freefall" situations before -- always with respect to my job/profession. The one thing my 25 years of education have drilled into me, beyond the reach of my generalized self-doubt, is that I am among the best there is at what I do. I would have no doubt that if I left my job on Monday, I would have a new job by Tuesday ... and one that pays better. I have even had offers that I've turned down in the last two years. Most importantly for this particular episode, tho, I already have another job. It's with a research firm that lives on "soft" money (grants). Any new position needs to be funded by new grants, so I'm simply waiting for one to come thru and I am gone. This firm has an international reputation -- governments and corporations come to them, money in hand, to have work done ... so once I'm in, I'm in. With a much more collegial group of people, who came after me after doing some contract work for me and after inviting me to speak at their "shop". Oh, at the level of Senior Researcher (one step below upper management) and with a pay jump of probably $10k or so.
So, when it comes to risking my job, I literally have no fear. That, plus my sense that as a psychologist I have a responsibility to speak out and to educate, and I am a completely different person when pushed on this. My current company is a "scientific organization". That they should be so unenlightened, particularly when they have (literally) thousands of doctors and psychologists affiliated with them, is a crime. That there are others in that company in my position, given the statistics on depression, well, I cannot let what these "supervisors" are doing to me happen to them. Even if it means going to the New York Post and the other rags in town to get them to sensationalize how a scientific company like mine can have such a neanderthal approach towards people with disabilities, I will do it.
But I won't have to do that.
Now, if it were my personal life ... that's a different story. The last three women I dated (including my recent-mostly-x) have all had positions of some sort in clinical mental health. Maybe I should take a hint ....
So please, Noa, don't be concerned ... you are a special person and I am so glad I've met you thru this board ... thanks for watching my back.
> Unfortunately they usually have the upper hand and to take them on, no matter how righteous your case can be can lead to martyrdom. Here's wishing otherwise for you.
But dj, I've already admitted to having a martyr complex (but it's mostly in remission). Thank you. One of the morals (sneak peek!) is not to tip your hand, no matter how much you want to spit out the word "LAWSUIT" at them. Let them think they have the upper hand. I've got the PTB on my side. I've done all the right things, and very soon we will be breaking out the whup'ass.
(dj: PTB=Powers That Be, often closely associated with the MIB=Men In Black ;^)
> hello kitty, nobody, NOBODY has the right to call you a fucking psycho.
> If I could prove someone at the workplace did that to me, they would be
> fucking busted. At that point they crossed a serious line, and displayed
> behaviour that essentially gives you recourse. I'd check with a lawyer
> and see what your chances are.Adam, man, you got the fire, too! Thanks! But like I said in the Story To Date (STD ... naw, I think we better leave that TLA alone...), you gotta turn that anger cold. What's that Klingon proverb that Khan quotes in the movie? "Revenge is a dish best served cold." But if you're going for justice, you have to look sane and reasonable to the PTB to get them on your side. Hell, you have to **BE** sane and resonable ... or no one will take you seriously. Blow up, and you tip your hand. In trying to be reasonable with them, and in their responding in an unreasonable manner, they've hung themselves.
"Don't cry because you hunt them,
Hurt them first, they'll love you"
--Townsend yet again, Quadrophenia yet again.Time for the moral of the story (so far ... it ain't over til it's over) ....
Bob
Posted by Bob on October 9, 1999, at 23:38:04
In reply to First, a few replies (and thanks!! =^), posted by Bob on October 9, 1999, at 21:21:41
Lesson 1:
Go to the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill's website at www.nami.org. I guess the tradition behin their name keeps them from changing it, but they refer to what we have as brain disorders, and that helped me to a subtle but meaningful shift in how I view myself. They have lots of information there, including fact sheets to help educate the unenlightened (whatever their mental status). They have a very good fact sheet on the ADA, for you Yanks like me. For others, maybe that guide could help with some activism in your own country -- then again, maybe your country is more enlightened than ours. I have PDF versions of the materials I gave to my Boss and HR at http://idt.net/~raboyle/babble/. If you want to download them instead of view them in your browser (since most of you will have the Acrobat Reader plug-in installed): Mac Navigator-- option-click on the link and you will get a save dialog. Mac Explorer, try a control-click or a click-and-hold to get a pop-up menu with Save choices. Windows folks, you should know the drill -- right click on those links. Or, failing that, let them load into the browser then, from the Acrobat menubar, save it to your hard drive.NAMI also has local affiliates all over the place. They cannot give you legal or medical advice, but they can calm you down and put you on the right path. My contact was a nurse at a hospital nearby -- she listened, she confirmed that I wasn't being paranoid and that something wrong was probably happening, and she gave me the phone numbers for several services I would need to fight this. She put me on the right road from the start.
Lesson 2:
Whatever your legal protection, learn in backwards and forewards, inside out and upside down BEFORE you have a problem. There is still one issue about the ADA that I don't have an answer for, so maybe some legal-type person out there in Babbleland may know the answer. In order to ask that reasonable accommodations be made by your employer, you have to inform your employer of your disability. My question here is whether you need to inform your employer (1) that you have a disability, or (2) what your disability is as well. The reasonable accommodations listed in NAMI's guide to the ADA are generic enough as not to point directly towards a brain disorder. Having either your GP or pdoc write a letter stating what reasonable accommodations should be made is a good thing to have in hand when you go to ask for them -- make sure, tho, that the stationary refers to your doc as an MD and not a Psychiatrist. My reason for questioning the need to specify the disability comes from my meeting with the EEOC and what they told me not to disclose in my upcoming complaint. So, it may be that from the start, you need not identify your disability; you may only need to verify through your doctor that you have a disability in need of accommodation.If no one answers this issue, I will make sure to ask the next time I speak with the investigator on my case about this issue.
Above all, tho, make sure you know how the ADA protects you, in what aspects of employment you are covered. The NAMI ADA statement spells this out clearly. For me, the protected areas are promotion, pay raise, and dismissal. All three are protected aspects of the workplace.
Lesson 3:
Document EVERYTHING.
Make sure all official communications are written up, if they are first delivered orally. Ask supervisors for meeting memos or minutes, if they don't provide them themselves (and they probably will, because they will want what they think is their just evidence put into YOUR file). Make sure you see what's in your file, by the way. Make sure you have copies of everything. I you file a protest or make a complaint, do it in writing. Stick to demonstrable facts. Remove inflamatory language. I have yet to find out the true test of this theory, but I made sure that none of my complaints were made with respect to my disability -- I focused on aspects of job performance and on company policy, and I made reference to existing documents. But I did my best to avoid making excuses for myself. I made no apologies, but I made no accusations. I stated what was, and presented a documented argument as to why these things were mistakes in need of correction. In contrast, my "supervisors", HR in particular, kept bringing up my disability and what measures had been taken to address it. It just so happens that she talks about it so much, my disability also comes up as a reason for why they would feel justified in firing me.Lesson 4:
(a la Mary Katherine Gallagher from SNL)
I think my thoughts on this lesson would best be expressed as a solo performance from the musical, West Side Story:"Boy, boy, crazy boy
Stay cool, boy!
Bizz it, buzz it,
But easy does it
Stay cooly-cool boy!
Go man go,
but not like
some yo-yo schoolboy
Just play it cool boy
Real cool."Vent your anger elsewhere. Work within the system. Don't try to short circuit the process. That doesn't mean don't speak up for your rights -- at the appropriate times and in the appropriate ways, I lodged my protests against the actions against me, but I went along with those actions all the same. I stayed congenial. I worked hard. I didn't stonewall. I did everything I could not to precipitate a crisis. Now that we're coming to the endgame, I am looking rational, my hands are clean, and I have tried to get them to realize their mistake, pursuing every internal venue I had to redress these wrongs.
Hey Adam! Listen up!
When I got those letters in mid-July, one of the first things I did was contact a lawyer referral service run by the Bar Association here in NYC. I got this voice that sounded like the crass, cynical wife of some retired bigwhig lawyer who volunteers at answering the phones because it makes her husband look good or something. Anyway, when I started telling my story, she cut me off and said, "Wait a minute. Have you exhausted all non-legal avenues?" "Um, uh, nn-no." "THEN WHY ARE YOU CALLING FOR A LAWYER?!" She hung up.
After a second, I thought, "B*tch" ... but it was probably some of the best advice I received.
Lesson 5:
Before you can sue on a workplace discrimination claim based on the ADA, you MUST go thru the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Time for the story of Friday Afternoon:Okay, try to picture this in your head. The US Federal Government. The EEOC. Those letters are ubiquitous in the workplace and in the want ads. Every employer (that is, other than the US Federal Government and its affiliates, like the US Postal Service) has to conform to their rules. And here I am, in the elevator lobby of 7 World Trade Center on my way to their offices on the 18th floor. One of the things that almost made me turn around was the thought of the 18th floor being Cubicleland, staffed by overworked, underpaid people in blue (or black) suits, men with their ties loosened and their top button undone ... a waiting room just off the elevator with chairs from 1981, too few of them for the number of people waiting, and forms -- geeee-yahd how the Feds love forms with (close your eyes, dj!) ACRONYMS!
I felt like I was about to vanish into The System.
I got to the 18th floor. The elevator lobby was carpeted, the walls papered, but no sign of any signs or arrows or, thankfully, cubes. I turned right and went to the adjoining hallway, and there it was -- nice big gold lettering on the glass doors with their seal and all. Inside, it was more like some small public clinic or something -- that nasty cushioned block-o-chairs, receptionist behind bullet-proof glass (the Feds sure have learned their lesson!). Only three other people in front of me. Of course, when I checked in with the receptionist there was a form to fill out, but only four pages, not that dense, and only enough information to give whoever I'd talk to a heads-up as to my situation. Oh, contact numbers, demographic stats, that sort of stuff, too.
There I am, sitting on this foam block, when the door to the Other Side opens an one of their investigators steps out. MIB? Nope. He was about 6' tall, 280 pounds, wild gray hair and beard (kinda had the Jerry Garcia look going), and wearing this denim shirt with Looney Tunes characters embroidered up the right side on his chest, the words "Stretched to the Max" embroidered on his shirt pocket to the left.
Big sigh of relief ... if he was typical of their investigators.
And he was. The other two people waiting had two other investigators come out and take them into a meeting room on Our Side. And then Mr. Looney Tunes (AKA Mr. Tunes) comes out and calls my name.
As a friend of my would say, "Too cool for school!"
He sat me down, asked me to fill him in on what had happened, and he listened actively and intently. Sticking with my lessons, I did try to be as unbiased as I could be in telling what happened, sticking only to "facts" that I could back up with the documents I had in The Folder.
His reaction was one of growing astonishment through the story, and when I told him about the second review process imposed AFTER I asked for accommodations, a look of utter disbelief. When I was done, and when he had filled me in on what to do, he had the same reaction as (I think it was) dj above -- how in our supposedly enlightened society could those people be so out of touch with reality?
Okay, WAKE UP OUT THERE!! ... here's some important information:
My investigator told me this is the process in which things will unfold:
(1) Wait until my final review meeting, scheduled for 10/18. If I filed now, any action taken at that meeting would just cause the process to start all over, and there would be a good chance that my company would be "served" prior to it anyway. In other words, don't tip my hand.
(2) If they choose to fire me on the 18th, file. If they choose not to fire me, I can still file to seek redress of their offenses up to that point, including the original review, the lack of a pay review, and the imposed 2nd review.
And you can be DAMN sure I will file my complaint no matter what!
(3) The complaint consists of a single page form, stating the employer and contact info, the people implicated in the discriminatory actions, the employee (that's me), the nature of the discrimination charge (here is where he told me NOT to mention it being a mental disability, but simply a disability). I have to sign it and have it notarized, and I need to turn in or mail in four copies. This will be the complaint charge that my company receives.
(4) With those four copies, I can include any corroborative documentation I choose. Furthermore, I am to clearly mark it as "FOR EEOC USE ONLY" -- my employer does NOT get to see it (at this stage).
(5) My employer is served with the charge. At this point, the EEOC imposes strict guidelines by which I or my employer may act -- so, if I am still an employee, the EEOC has put safeguards into place against any retalliation.
(6) The EEOC investigates the charge, carrying out a fact-finding search prior to any action taken toward resolution of the charge.
(7) Step one in settling the charge is mediation. I can't remember if my investigator is the mediator as well, but that would be cool by me! My company sends a representative; I can bring an advocate with me. Mr. Tunes suggested someone from a professional organization to which I belong who understands the nature of my work and can provide support ... tho he never said "NO LAWYERS", I read it between the lines. The EEOC handles the law at this stage, and the effort is put behind a settlement that both sides can agree to.
(I might as well tip my hand to my friends. HR said she was going to revise the review process in such a way so that the arguments I was making against it would be removed. I am, among other things, trained in program (and, somewhat, personnel) evaluation. There are national standards that exist for the field of my work, and there are people trained in developing evaluation processes and documents from them. I will not be satisfied until my employer agrees to hire such qualified consultants to produce a standards-based review process that will give due protection to people with disabilities. Yes, Noa, I *am* sticking out my neck -- but I am not going to leave behind people who may be like me without gaining what protection I can for them. I actually have some other "service" oriented stuff up my sleeve, but that's only if they refuse to play nice.)
(8) If neither side agrees to a mediated settlement, several things can happen. If the EEOC feels my claim is warranted, they can issue me a "Right to Sue" letter, clearing my path for taking private legal action. The EEOC can also decide to pursue the claim on their own.
If my read on Mr. Tunes was anywhere near correct, they will pursue if my company balks at mediation. He was asking me to give him all the documentation and information on people who could corroborate my side of the story as I could. I showed him some of the documentation, including the second review letter, and after pointing out that I received it AFTER asking for accommodations, all he could do was shake his head in disbelief.
He did his best to reassure me that I wasn't imagining things, that this case had merit, and that I should feel secure in following it through. And that was that.
Well, we DID finish in time for me to catch an express train up to my therapist, making my appointment with one minute to spare.
Like I said (okay, someone else said it first): it ain't over til its over. Next update will be nearly a week after the NYC Babblefest, so stay tuned kiddies ... same Bat place, same Bat time, same Bat channel (... same Bat URL?)
Lesson Last, for now:
Like my GP said to me ... do NOT allow yourself to be victimized.Phew!
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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