![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Judy on July 10, 1999, at 20:18:52
John,
I didn't want to take up any more of Racer's space - I'm sure she'll have many more notes of joy - so I started a new thread.
I suspect (and hope) that your treatment might actually be kicking in after reading your message about looking at million-times-seen-before trees in a different light. I swear this has happened to me several times when meds started kicking in for me. All of a sudden I'll notice that the sky looks a more richer blue, my car growls a bit deeper and more powerfully in 2nd gear and, yes, the purple (amethyst?) color of my toothbrush deserves a second glance! It doesn't last long - as I mentioned to Racer, maybe I take these things for granted when I start to feel better; but it has become a definite 'sign' to me that a drug is going to make me feel better, soon. (And then I have to dump it because of the side effects.)
I told my doctor about this once and he said "Realllllllly? Uh huh..." (I could almost hear him thinking "Get the net!"); but I swear it is so! I think it is, in fact, my mind climbing out of hell, blinking its eyes and noticing the world around it for the first time in a long time. I truly hope my theory holds true for you too (just don't mention it to "normal" people - they'll look at you funny)!
Hey! Where else but here can you write about the color of a toothbrush and have people actually understand?!?!? Hang in there, John, I think you're on the way up!
Judy
Posted by Craig on July 11, 1999, at 1:05:10
In reply to To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Judy on July 10, 1999, at 20:18:52
This thread about awakening senses after being depressed is striking because a similar thing happens to me. When I'm depressed, all music sounds like it's playing on a cheap clock radio. I know I'm feeling better when I can hear the wide range of stereo with all its rich sounds. Right now I long for surround sound because all I've been hearing lately is monaural.
Posted by JohnL on July 11, 1999, at 6:00:26
In reply to Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Craig on July 11, 1999, at 1:05:10
>
Hi Judy. You're so funny! :) And so gifted with words. Really enjoyed your post. Thanks. JohnL.
Posted by David K. on July 11, 1999, at 7:37:17
In reply to Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Craig on July 11, 1999, at 1:05:10
> This thread about awakening senses after being depressed is striking because a similar thing happens to me. When I'm depressed, all music sounds like it's playing on a cheap clock radio. I know I'm feeling better when I can hear the wide range of stereo with all its rich sounds. Right now I long for surround sound because all I've been hearing lately is monaural.
This is almost exactly the metaphor I've used.
Major depression is like trying to listen to
AM radio at two a.m. The hetrodynes howl and bay
like mad wolves, the programming fades in and out,
and the programming is YOUR LIFE.I've been on some meds that worked. Normal life is
like listening to a nearby FM stereo radio station.
The programming is sharp as a tack and it's down
right pleasurable to listen to the programming.Unfortunately, I had side effects from the meds, so
now I'm stuck listening to AM in the early morning.David K.
Posted by Annie on July 11, 1999, at 8:59:06
In reply to To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Judy on July 10, 1999, at 20:18:52
Great thread because it is so 'weird but true'. Other senses kick in for me as well. I suddenly can smell newly cut grass - almost taste it- or that great smell before rain comes. Depression has a metallic, chemical smell and taste.
Annie> John,
>
> I didn't want to take up any more of Racer's space - I'm sure she'll have many more notes of joy - so I started a new thread.
>
> I suspect (and hope) that your treatment might actually be kicking in after reading your message about looking at million-times-seen-before trees in a different light. I swear this has happened to me several times when meds started kicking in for me. All of a sudden I'll notice that the sky looks a more richer blue, my car growls a bit deeper and more powerfully in 2nd gear and, yes, the purple (amethyst?) color of my toothbrush deserves a second glance! It doesn't last long - as I mentioned to Racer, maybe I take these things for granted when I start to feel better; but it has become a definite 'sign' to me that a drug is going to make me feel better, soon. (And then I have to dump it because of the side effects.)
>
> I told my doctor about this once and he said "Realllllllly? Uh huh..." (I could almost hear him thinking "Get the net!"); but I swear it is so! I think it is, in fact, my mind climbing out of hell, blinking its eyes and noticing the world around it for the first time in a long time. I truly hope my theory holds true for you too (just don't mention it to "normal" people - they'll look at you funny)!
>
> Hey! Where else but here can you write about the color of a toothbrush and have people actually understand?!?!? Hang in there, John, I think you're on the way up!
>
> Judy
Posted by Judy on July 11, 1999, at 9:13:42
In reply to Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Annie on July 11, 1999, at 8:59:06
Annie - you just 'nailed' another bizarre symptom that didn't even occur to me! I too have that terrible 'brass" taste in my mouth when I'm depressed. I've complained to my husband about it before, but never thought to connect it with my depression. Brain rush!
> Great thread because it is so 'weird but true'. Other senses kick in for me as well. I suddenly can smell newly cut grass - almost taste it- or that great smell before rain comes. Depression has a metallic, chemical smell and taste.
> Annie
>
Posted by Racer on July 11, 1999, at 11:26:53
In reply to To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Judy on July 10, 1999, at 20:18:52
I remember a terrible time in my life. The boy I always knew I'd marry when I grew up had just been killed, I was sure the blow would kill his father - the man who has meant most to me in my life. The period of grief was overwhelming, but I was not depressed. I was experiencing the normal stages of grief. The sign that I could and would go on living came on a car trip. We left home at about 5AM, and I had slept most of the way to the California border. I woke up around 7:30 or 8 in the Siskyous, and looked out the car window to see every shade of green ever produced in this world. It was the most beautiful sight I'd ever seen, maybe because it was mixed with the knowledge that I'd never see them with my first love. But it told me that I could still find beauty even in a world without Johnny.
That's a downer of a story, but it was not really like that at the time. It was more like opening my eyes to find a brand new world, one that had its own beauty in it for me.
And yes, purple toothbrushes are sometimes a wonderful thing.
Part Two of Racer's ProfunditiesI think this is a great thread. Not only does it remind us of some of the things we find joy in, but it also reminds us that mood is not the only thing affected by depression. All of our senses are effected. Could it be that it's a physical change? Could it be a part of the disorder that hasn't received much attention?
I know that one change for me when I'm depressed is that my eyesight (already horrifically bad) gets much worse. My prescription actually changes and then changes back. It's not a really significant change most of the time, about a diopter or so, but it's enough that reading gets difficult. I also don't taste food the same way, so textures get more important. That may be involved in the anorexia, since when I'm in a full blown episode of that, texture is much more important than taste and I can't eat anything that's the 'wrong' texture (though I could happily eat cardboard if it were the 'right' texture that day...) During anorexic phases, I tend to eat the same thing every day. Weeks of peanut butter and Nutella sandwiches, or caesar salads, or Malt-O-Meal, or whatever it is. Tomato soup comes in for its share of praise - possibly because it seems to be the only thing I can usually taste at those times.
So how much of all this is the effect of physical changes in our neural web due to depression? Anyone care to speculate?
Posted by Judy on July 11, 1999, at 11:48:02
In reply to Re: To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Racer on July 11, 1999, at 11:26:53
Subject line says it all!
Posted by Cass on July 11, 1999, at 12:57:44
In reply to Re: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by David K. on July 11, 1999, at 7:37:17
David ,
If you are not doing so already, I think you should write a novel. Your decriptions are vital and compelling. I'll never forget the AM metaphor. How accurate it is!!
Cass
> > This thread about awakening senses after being depressed is striking because a similar thing happens to me. When I'm depressed, all music sounds like it's playing on a cheap clock radio. I know I'm feeling better when I can hear the wide range of stereo with all its rich sounds. Right now I long for surround sound because all I've been hearing lately is monaural.
>
> This is almost exactly the metaphor I've used.
> Major depression is like trying to listen to
> AM radio at two a.m. The hetrodynes howl and bay
> like mad wolves, the programming fades in and out,
> and the programming is YOUR LIFE.
>
> I've been on some meds that worked. Normal life is
> like listening to a nearby FM stereo radio station.
> The programming is sharp as a tack and it's down
> right pleasurable to listen to the programming.
>
> Unfortunately, I had side effects from the meds, so
> now I'm stuck listening to AM in the early morning.
>
> David K.
Posted by David K. on July 11, 1999, at 13:18:07
In reply to Novel by David K., posted by Cass on July 11, 1999, at 12:57:44
> David ,
>
> If you are not doing so already, I think you should write a novel. Your decriptions are vital and compelling. I'll never forget the AM metaphor. How accurate it is!!Cass,
Believe it or not, writing, both fiction and nonfiction,
is something I've always wanted to do. I've never been
able to focus enough to go beyond ten pages or so.When I look back over the past ten to fifteen years and
remember that inability to concentrate, it makes me realize
this BEAST named depression has been with my for
most of my adult life. It's only been in the past
three years that I've realized I've suffering major
bouts with the BEAST.
Posted by Sean on July 12, 1999, at 18:26:13
In reply to To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Judy on July 10, 1999, at 20:18:52
> John,
>
> I didn't want to take up any more of Racer's space - I'm sure she'll have many more notes of joy - so I started a new thread.
>
> I suspect (and hope) that your treatment might actually be kicking in after reading your message about looking at million-times-seen-before trees in a different light. I swear this has happened to me several times when meds started kicking in for me. All of a sudden I'll notice that the sky looks a more richer blue, my car growls a bit deeper and more powerfully in 2nd gear and, yes, the purple (amethyst?) color of my toothbrush deserves a second glance! It doesn't last long - as I mentioned to Racer, maybe I take these things for granted when I start to feel better; but it has become a definite 'sign' to me that a drug is going to make me feel better, soon. (And then I have to dump it because of the side effects.)
>
> I told my doctor about this once and he said "Realllllllly? Uh huh..." (I could almost hear him thinking "Get the net!"); but I swear it is so! I think it is, in fact, my mind climbing out of hell, blinking its eyes and noticing the world around it for the first time in a long time. I truly hope my theory holds true for you too (just don't mention it to "normal" people - they'll look at you funny)!
>
> Hey! Where else but here can you write about the color of a toothbrush and have people actually understand?!?!? Hang in there, John, I think you're on the way up!
>
> JudyThis is a great thread. I'm back here after spending
two weeks in the depression zone. Am starting back on
the program w/my doc and we are exploring new
possibilities, many of which I've learned about
here.I also notice the colors of things, the clarity
and "realness" which is so absent from the depressed
state. When it comes back I almost want to cry
because the world can be so lovely, right down
to the purple toothbrushes. When I feel like killing
myself, it usually these little things, the very
private epiphanies of perception which I treasure,
that keep me hoping that I will see the world
in such a way again. Yes, there is a "big picture"
but it is the little things which endear me to
this 'ole world.Sean.
Posted by Janet on July 13, 1999, at 21:29:21
In reply to Re: To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Sean on July 12, 1999, at 18:26:13
>What all of you are referring to is well known and accepted in the mania realm. Heightened senses, euphoric feelings, increased energy, intense awareness etc. So coming out of a depression , which is absence of almost everything practically ,is wonderful. It's a shot in the arm so to speak saying, life really is worth living. Taste, smell, texture, enjoymentment is renewed. That's how life is for most people who live a clean, healthy life free from stress, having friends and family I think. When we get sick, we need rest, exercise, drugs sometimes and theropy if need be. I would think the "professional" world would understand that! > If mania causes changes in senses, surely depression does also.
You know how music can have this superb affect on you that you just can't explain? It isn't like talking or a piece of art, or something you can taste, it is just in a world of it's own, well, that's what I think heaven will be like. Like nothing we can ever imagine, so wonderful and perfect we won't ever get tired of it in 20 billion years. Janet
> >
> > I didn't want to take up any more of Racer's space - I'm sure she'll have many more notes of joy - so I started a new thread.
> >
> > I suspect (and hope) that your treatment might actually be kicking in after reading your message about looking at million-times-seen-before trees in a different light. I swear this has happened to me several times when meds started kicking in for me. All of a sudden I'll notice that the sky looks a more richer blue, my car growls a bit deeper and more powerfully in 2nd gear and, yes, the purple (amethyst?) color of my toothbrush deserves a second glance! It doesn't last long - as I mentioned to Racer, maybe I take these things for granted when I start to feel better; but it has become a definite 'sign' to me that a drug is going to make me feel better, soon. (And then I have to dump it because of the side effects.)
> >
> > I told my doctor about this once and he said "Realllllllly? Uh huh..." (I could almost hear him thinking "Get the net!"); but I swear it is so! I think it is, in fact, my mind climbing out of hell, blinking its eyes and noticing the world around it for the first time in a long time. I truly hope my theory holds true for you too (just don't mention it to "normal" people - they'll look at you funny)!
> >
> > Hey! Where else but here can you write about the color of a toothbrush and have people actually understand?!?!? Hang in there, John, I think you're on the way up!
> >
> > Judy
>
> This is a great thread. I'm back here after spending
> two weeks in the depression zone. Am starting back on
> the program w/my doc and we are exploring new
> possibilities, many of which I've learned about
> here.
>
> I also notice the colors of things, the clarity
> and "realness" which is so absent from the depressed
> state. When it comes back I almost want to cry
> because the world can be so lovely, right down
> to the purple toothbrushes. When I feel like killing
> myself, it usually these little things, the very
> private epiphanies of perception which I treasure,
> that keep me hoping that I will see the world
> in such a way again. Yes, there is a "big picture"
> but it is the little things which endear me to
> this 'ole world.
>
> Sean.
Posted by JohnL on July 14, 1999, at 5:03:11
In reply to Re: Judy, posted by JohnL on July 11, 1999, at 6:00:26
> I've been teased. Robbed like a thief in the night. Back into the colorless drab world. The word JOY has once again been mysteriously removed from every dictionary. Sure been down this road before. What a cruel tease, to feel the joy of normalness, only to have it stolen away abruptly without warning. Oh well. It's only the second week of treatment. I hope my momentary relief was a sign of better things to come, and not just another cruel joke. I feel like the devils are using me as a puppet, teasing and playing and laughing hysterically at my helpless grief. This cycle has been a repeating nightmare no matter what AD I try. They work for a day or two, and then that's it. All done. I tell myself, "Hang in there", for the umpteenth time. Hohhhh boy, here we go again. I could care less about trees or toothbrushes, but I'ld give a million dollars to have them back. JohnL.
Posted by Leonora on July 14, 1999, at 6:08:12
In reply to Re: To JohnL: Green Trees & Purple Toothbrushes, posted by Sean on July 12, 1999, at 18:26:13
> > Agreed Sean this thread (and site) is wonderful. Here's my problem, small albeit to those I have when I'm down. I have the heightened sensitivity thing going on when my brain chemistry is working, and I desperately want to share these observations in conversation with people, but alas who? Those around me either don't get it or worse think it's time to call the doc because I'm going into a manic phase. A few years back I had serontonin syndrome diagnosed as Bipolar disorder, so whenever I'm anything but depressed, my family starts to worry. Now ain't that a bitch? I, however, do remember that the "up" me was exactly how I was in college and early 20's before my first major episode of depression hit. Anyone else have similar experiences? How to cope? Should we start some kind of new support thread?
>
Posted by Sean on July 14, 1999, at 11:36:46
In reply to ...And wanting to conversate , posted by Leonora on July 14, 1999, at 6:08:12
> > > Agreed Sean this thread (and site) is wonderful. Here's my problem, small albeit to those I have when I'm down. I have the heightened sensitivity thing going on when my brain chemistry is working, and I desperately want to share these observations in conversation with people, but alas who? Those around me either don't get it or worse think it's time to call the doc because I'm going into a manic phase. A few years back I had serontonin syndrome diagnosed as Bipolar disorder, so whenever I'm anything but depressed, my family starts to worry. Now ain't that a bitch? I, however, do remember that the "up" me was exactly how I was in college and early 20's before my first major episode of depression hit. Anyone else have similar experiences? How to cope? Should we start some kind of new support thread?
> >It might be cool to start a thread on support. We
can talk all we want to the p-docs, but there is
an existential, "in the trenches" sort of relating
that I can only get here.Sometime I think about the way I internalize and
represent my own feelings/symptomology to myself.
This happens in a very strange "place" which is
itself subject to the ravages of the disorder, and
yet the beachhead of self-knowledge I've managed
to create (and this is where therapy is king...) is
sometimes the only thing between me and the infinite
fall or flight to fantasy. Despite all the wasted
money, drugs, embarassing acts, I'm not at all
sure I can say was "someone else" doing them, or
blame my neurons in the abstract somehow.In the bipolar context, this could be seen as the
idealized euthymic self I suppose, a self which
governs and serves the emotions when needed. Of
course what you never really read about is how
"natural" it feels to experience extreme emotions.
It is a constant source of amazement to me that
most people jsut don't go into these places. And
I know now that what appears to be some sort of
cosmic punishment is really depression, and what
appears to be "religious clarity" is the start of
mania.Or is it?
Green toothbrushes forever.
Sean.
Posted by ruthE on July 14, 1999, at 14:48:32
In reply to Re: The Elusive Tease, posted by JohnL on July 14, 1999, at 5:03:11
>JohnL,
What happened? You were trying a new drug treatment
and it's becoming ineffective and you're getting
depressed again? oh no! I wish I had all the
good advice you seem to offer everyone, but all I can
say is I'm sorry and I'm thinking of you, and I know
how you feel. Please tell me a little more about
what you're going through...what were you trying?
Posted by Judy on July 14, 1999, at 18:24:40
In reply to Re: The Elusive Tease, posted by JohnL on July 14, 1999, at 5:03:11
> > I've been teased. Robbed like a thief in the night. Back into the colorless drab world. The word JOY has once again been mysteriously removed from every dictionary. Sure been down this road before. What a cruel tease, to feel the joy of normalness, only to have it stolen away abruptly without warning. Oh well. It's only the second week of treatment. I hope my momentary relief was a sign of better things to come, and not just another cruel joke. I feel like the devils are using me as a puppet, teasing and playing and laughing hysterically at my helpless grief. This cycle has been a repeating nightmare no matter what AD I try. They work for a day or two, and then that's it. All done. I tell myself, "Hang in there", for the umpteenth time. Hohhhh boy, here we go again. I could care less about trees or toothbrushes, but I'ld give a million dollars to have them back. JohnL.
----------------------
Damn it, John! Damn, Damn, Damn!!! My heart absolutely broke when I read your post. I was SO sure your new treatment was going to be the 'one'! I had a gut feeling. Damn this disease and the miserable assortment of drugs we're given to choose from!
Are you feeling as though the current meds are making you worse (like, 'I have to get off these pills before I die'), or do you think maybe you've just plateaued temporarily? I think I recall your writing that tinnitis has been a problem with some drugs that otherwise worked well for you. Do you know why certain drugs cause/worsen tinnitis and have you explored the possibility of countering the tinnitis with another drug/treatment while remaining on the AD that works for you? (Probably a stupid question - I'm sure you have.)
I wish I had something to say to encourage you; but in the absence of my own wisom, I'll quote one of the most helpful sages on this bulletin board: " Like any antidepressant though, give it time to work. Two weeks isn't very long for any drug. Persistence should pay off." Sound familiar?
My fingers are crossed that you'll awaken tomorrow to joy and the sun shining through the tree branches. Please let me know!
Judy
Posted by JohnL on July 14, 1999, at 19:18:35
In reply to Re: The Elusive Tease, posted by Judy on July 14, 1999, at 18:24:40
Thanks so much for the kind support. You two are so cool in my book. People in this thread are so gifted with words. Sean ought to be a writer. So what happened? Hey, who knows. Just a plateau? Fizzle? All I know is I've experienced the temporary relief and let-down way too much to get my hopes up for long. But the reality is I'm only in week two of new treatment, and yep, as painful as it is, persistence is needed to give the meds time to work. Even the guru Hagop Akiskal in his book says these drugs need 3 months, not the usually touted 4-6 weeks. Hangin in there. With lovely folks like you around, the road isn't nearly as bumpy as it would be without you. Wishing you all a smooth day and thanking you for your kindness. JohnL.
Posted by Sean on July 14, 1999, at 23:41:22
In reply to Re: ruthE, Judy, posted by JohnL on July 14, 1999, at 19:18:35
> Thanks so much for the kind support. You two are so cool in my book. People in this thread are so gifted with words. Sean ought to be a writer. So what happened? Hey, who knows. Just a plateau? Fizzle? All I know is I've experienced the temporary relief and let-down way too much to get my hopes up for long. But the reality is I'm only in week two of new treatment, and yep, as painful as it is, persistence is needed to give the meds time to work. Even the guru Hagop Akiskal in his book says these drugs need 3 months, not the usually touted 4-6 weeks. Hangin in there. With lovely folks like you around, the road isn't nearly as bumpy as it would be without you. Wishing you all a smooth day and thanking you for your kindness. JohnL.
Hey JohnL,
thanks for the kind words on my writing. I'm very
sorry to hear about how things are going with your
brain these days. There should be a word for that
depressing feeling caused by the simple knowledge
that your depression is returning... a kind of
meta-depression I suppose. I remember telling my
therapist that I can handle my mood swings until
I get to the point where I simply do not believe
things will *ever* get better. Of course they
usually do - eventually, somehow, with time
and or drugs.One metaphor I have worked with is to see myself
as a form of lichen, you know that atumnal
colored stuff that grows on wild rocks. Lichen is
able to survive the most desolate, windbare
conditions of just about anything. Sometimes it is
all we can expect of ourselves (sadly, truth be
told...) to hang the heck on for dear life, like
lichen, in the rocky neural wilderness of our own
brains. Not fun, to be sure, but certainly we
need to be our own advocates in such damnable
times.Hope things turn around soon. I can totally
relate to this frustration. It sucks and it isn't
fair. Someday the neurological knight in shining
armour will arrive and we can all spend time at
other sites for a change.Sean.
Posted by ruthE on July 15, 1999, at 7:01:49
In reply to Re: ruthE, Judy, posted by Sean on July 14, 1999, at 23:41:22
>
>Sean,
Thanks so much for that lichen image. That really
helps--it's perfect. I think the biggest problem
with depression is being expected to keep on functioning
at the normal level, when thing obviously aint
right. I have a feeling a lot of us are perfectionist's
and we probably are our own harshest judges. I know
I am.
Anyway--the lichen--that's perfect--just hold on--
that's your only task, to hold on. I really like
that. And you ARE a good writer :-)Here's something my sister wrote to me, when I was
feeling particularly depressed. I typed it up and
hung it in my "cube". She wrote :"I don't know, but maybe try this: Your life has
purpose that serves a noble being greater than the
shitty feelings you are having--you don't know why
these noble beings want you to live, but you know
the first step to fulfilling their need is to be
alive, to live and breathe. And they are sending
you encouragement just for that. Other people don't
know about this, they don't know how important you
are, but there is an invisable force rooting for
you, Roo" (Roo is my pet name)Hang in there everybody, like the ole lichen,
Ruth
Posted by Judy on July 16, 1999, at 19:45:27
In reply to Re: ...And wanting to conversate , posted by Sean on July 14, 1999, at 11:36:46
First of all, is "conversate" really a word? (They say there's no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer!)
One of the best things about this site, for me, has been to see that my symptoms, side effects and weirdities (definitely not a real word) are shared by others. How many times have I read posts here and said to myself, "Hey! It's not just me!"?
Leonora - how tragic that whenever we seem anything but depressed, our loved ones think something is terribly wrong! Sean - your remark about "someone else" wasting the money, taking the drugs, etc. triggered a question that's been in my head for a long time - more about this below if I don't lose my train of thought in the meantime!
Following are some of the things that roll around in my brain when I'm doing the "It must be me" thing. Talk amongst yourselves (this last phrase won't make sense unless you've seen Mike Meyers' hilarious 'Linda Richman' skits on Saturday Night Live):
Does anyone but me feel that there is an actual, physical weight to depression? When you wake up in the morning, you can tell how bad the day's going to be when you can hardly lift your head off the pillow because it's so heavy (and if you do, you wonder if your neck can actually hold it up there)?
Has anyone ever noticed the look (or actually absence thereof) in your eyes during a depressed state? I find that I stare at nothing a lot when depressed. If I look in the mirror, there is NO life in my eyes and I can't "create" it even if I try. I look at old photos of myself and think "Jeez! I was really down when this was taken - my eyes are 'dead'!
Finally (Okay, Sean, I remembered my question after all this time!) this is the biggie: Who am I really? With no medication, I am a useless wreck who cannot even get out of bed much less lead a productive life. Each med seems to come with its own personna - for me, Lythium almost made me a dead person; Serzone made me become a nasty, antagonistic witch; all the SSRI's transformed me into an exhausted Zombie; and Nardil makes me seem to be the best person I can ever be - positive, energetic, loving, etc., etc., etc. So who am I really? That pathetic wretch on no medication; the happy, productive go-getter I am on Nardil; or something in between? I think about this a lot. When Prozac was first introduced, there was an uproar about the new pill that could change personalities, make you smarter, whatever. The uproar quickly died down when this turned out not to be the case for people who just wanted to "tweak" their personalities for the better; yet when depressed, I DO take on the personna of whatever drug I may be taking at the time. Anybody else ever wonder about this? Or is it just me?
Judy
> > > > Agreed Sean this thread (and site) is wonderful. Here's my problem, small albeit to those I have when I'm down. I have the heightened sensitivity thing going on when my brain chemistry is working, and I desperately want to share these observations in conversation with people, but alas who? Those around me either don't get it or worse think it's time to call the doc because I'm going into a manic phase. A few years back I had serontonin syndrome diagnosed as Bipolar disorder, so whenever I'm anything but depressed, my family starts to worry. Now ain't that a bitch? I, however, do remember that the "up" me was exactly how I was in college and early 20's before my first major episode of depression hit. Anyone else have similar experiences? How to cope? Should we start some kind of new support thread?
> > >
>
> It might be cool to start a thread on support. We
> can talk all we want to the p-docs, but there is
> an existential, "in the trenches" sort of relating
> that I can only get here.
>
> Sometime I think about the way I internalize and
> represent my own feelings/symptomology to myself.
> This happens in a very strange "place" which is
> itself subject to the ravages of the disorder, and
> yet the beachhead of self-knowledge I've managed
> to create (and this is where therapy is king...) is
> sometimes the only thing between me and the infinite
> fall or flight to fantasy. Despite all the wasted
> money, drugs, embarassing acts, I'm not at all
> sure I can say was "someone else" doing them, or
> blame my neurons in the abstract somehow.
>
> In the bipolar context, this could be seen as the
> idealized euthymic self I suppose, a self which
> governs and serves the emotions when needed. Of
> course what you never really read about is how
> "natural" it feels to experience extreme emotions.
> It is a constant source of amazement to me that
> most people jsut don't go into these places. And
> I know now that what appears to be some sort of
> cosmic punishment is really depression, and what
> appears to be "religious clarity" is the start of
> mania.
>
> Or is it?
>
> Green toothbrushes forever.
>
> Sean.
Posted by anna on July 17, 1999, at 6:27:23
In reply to Re: ruthE, Judy, posted by Sean on July 14, 1999, at 23:41:22
> > Thanks so much for the kind support. You two are so cool in my book. People in this thread are so gifted with words. Sean ought to be a writer. So what happened? Hey, who knows. Just a plateau? Fizzle? All I know is I've experienced the temporary relief and let-down way too much to get my hopes up for long. But the reality is I'm only in week two of new treatment, and yep, as painful as it is, persistence is needed to give the meds time to work. Even the guru Hagop Akiskal in his book says these drugs need 3 months, not the usually touted 4-6 weeks. Hangin in there. With lovely folks like you around, the road isn't nearly as bumpy as it would be without you. Wishing you all a smooth day and thanking you for your kindness. JohnL.
>
> Hey JohnL,
>
> thanks for the kind words on my writing. I'm very
> sorry to hear about how things are going with your
> brain these days. There should be a word for that
> depressing feeling caused by the simple knowledge
> that your depression is returning... a kind of
> meta-depression I suppose. I remember telling my
> therapist that I can handle my mood swings until
> I get to the point where I simply do not believe
> things will *ever* get better. Of course they
> usually do - eventually, somehow, with time
> and or drugs.
>
> One metaphor I have worked with is to see myself
> as a form of lichen, you know that atumnal
> colored stuff that grows on wild rocks. Lichen is
> able to survive the most desolate, windbare
> conditions of just about anything. Sometimes it is
> all we can expect of ourselves (sadly, truth be
> told...) to hang the heck on for dear life, like
> lichen, in the rocky neural wilderness of our own
> brains. Not fun, to be sure, but certainly we
> need to be our own advocates in such damnable
> times.
>
> Hope things turn around soon. I can totally
> relate to this frustration. It sucks and it isn't
> fair. Someday the neurological knight in shining
> armour will arrive and we can all spend time at
> other sites for a change.
>
> Sean.
Sean, your writing really is wonderful and your analogy of lichen so true and John I can Sympathise with how you are feeling. Without meaning to trivialise it all, remember we all end up lichen ourselves again at some stage! LOL
Sorry i,ve been spending too much time with my 7 year old twins- knock knock jokes and all.
Also i,m from australia and i think we pronounce lichen (like en) differently from you in the northern hemisphere so sorry everyone for a silly pun. it is only meant to cheer.
anna
Posted by anna on July 17, 1999, at 7:11:05
In reply to ...wanting to conversate - Leonora, Sean, et al, posted by Judy on July 16, 1999, at 19:45:27
> First of all, is "conversate" really a word? (They say there's no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer!)
>
> One of the best things about this site, for me, has been to see that my symptoms, side effects and weirdities (definitely not a real word) are shared by others. How many times have I read posts here and said to myself, "Hey! It's not just me!"?
>
> Leonora - how tragic that whenever we seem anything but depressed, our loved ones think something is terribly wrong! Sean - your remark about "someone else" wasting the money, taking the drugs, etc. triggered a question that's been in my head for a long time - more about this below if I don't lose my train of thought in the meantime!
>
> Following are some of the things that roll around in my brain when I'm doing the "It must be me" thing. Talk amongst yourselves (this last phrase won't make sense unless you've seen Mike Meyers' hilarious 'Linda Richman' skits on Saturday Night Live):
>
> Does anyone but me feel that there is an actual, physical weight to depression? When you wake up in the morning, you can tell how bad the day's going to be when you can hardly lift your head off the pillow because it's so heavy (and if you do, you wonder if your neck can actually hold it up there)?
>
> Has anyone ever noticed the look (or actually absence thereof) in your eyes during a depressed state? I find that I stare at nothing a lot when depressed. If I look in the mirror, there is NO life in my eyes and I can't "create" it even if I try. I look at old photos of myself and think "Jeez! I was really down when this was taken - my eyes are 'dead'!
>
> Finally (Okay, Sean, I remembered my question after all this time!) this is the biggie: Who am I really? With no medication, I am a useless wreck who cannot even get out of bed much less lead a productive life. Each med seems to come with its own personna - for me, Lythium almost made me a dead person; Serzone made me become a nasty, antagonistic witch; all the SSRI's transformed me into an exhausted Zombie; and Nardil makes me seem to be the best person I can ever be - positive, energetic, loving, etc., etc., etc. So who am I really? That pathetic wretch on no medication; the happy, productive go-getter I am on Nardil; or something in between? I think about this a lot. When Prozac was first introduced, there was an uproar about the new pill that could change personalities, make you smarter, whatever. The uproar quickly died down when this turned out not to be the case for people who just wanted to "tweak" their personalities for the better; yet when depressed, I DO take on the personna of whatever drug I may be taking at the time. Anybody else ever wonder about this? Or is it just me?
>
> Judy
>
> > > > > Agreed Sean this thread (and site) is wonderful. Here's my problem, small albeit to those I have when I'm down. I have the heightened sensitivity thing going on when my brain chemistry is working, and I desperately want to share these observations in conversation with people, but alas who? Those around me either don't get it or worse think it's time to call the doc because I'm going into a manic phase. A few years back I had serontonin syndrome diagnosed as Bipolar disorder, so whenever I'm anything but depressed, my family starts to worry. Now ain't that a bitch? I, however, do remember that the "up" me was exactly how I was in college and early 20's before my first major episode of depression hit. Anyone else have similar experiences? How to cope? Should we start some kind of new support thread?
> > > >
> >
> > It might be cool to start a thread on support. We
> > can talk all we want to the p-docs, but there is
> > an existential, "in the trenches" sort of relating
> > that I can only get here.
> >
> > Sometime I think about the way I internalize and
> > represent my own feelings/symptomology to myself.
> > This happens in a very strange "place" which is
> > itself subject to the ravages of the disorder, and
> > yet the beachhead of self-knowledge I've managed
> > to create (and this is where therapy is king...) is
> > sometimes the only thing between me and the infinite
> > fall or flight to fantasy. Despite all the wasted
> > money, drugs, embarassing acts, I'm not at all
> > sure I can say was "someone else" doing them, or
> > blame my neurons in the abstract somehow.
> >
> > In the bipolar context, this could be seen as the
> > idealized euthymic self I suppose, a self which
> > governs and serves the emotions when needed. Of
> > course what you never really read about is how
> > "natural" it feels to experience extreme emotions.
> > It is a constant source of amazement to me that
> > most people jsut don't go into these places. And
> > I know now that what appears to be some sort of
> > cosmic punishment is really depression, and what
> > appears to be "religious clarity" is the start of
> > mania.
> >
> > Or is it?
> >
> > Green toothbrushes forever.
> >
> > Sean.I cant even talk to my p-docs and unless someone has experienced depression they have no idea what its all about and how hard it is to survive so I think this bb is great cos you all understand where i'm coming from, I hope, and i can understand you. i,ve always wondered what the normal me is, so i see what you mean. I dont think the normal me is created by ad's, they just allow it to shine through. The normal me is motivated to live life, be happy, be creative , be whatever feels good but it also can be sad or angry, anxious or elated. No one mood dominates. The normal me experiences the whole spectrum of feelings. I wish I could achieve this without meds and i wish the meds always worked but it is all so complicated. Especially when i cant even relate to the docs. So i really appreciate all the feedback from you all because it all helps to make me feel just a tiny bit normal.
i had heaps more to write but now i,ve forgotten so until next time Enjoy.
anna
Posted by Roo on July 19, 1999, at 7:07:49
In reply to ...wanting to conversate - Leonora, Sean, et al, posted by Judy on July 16, 1999, at 19:45:27
Judy,
Yeah...I think about it alot! One thought I've had
is I was depressed for so many years, all my life
really...that I started to think that's who I was, a
depressed person, a dark person, a moody person...
Then when I discovered meds I had to start reforming
my self concept. Now I think I might be an enthusiastic
person, a deep thinking person who allows herself
to be dark sometimes, but not to spiral down (for too
terribly long anyway) and who desires, always, to
keep the faith, who WANT to be happy (rather than
thinking happy people are just stupid and deluded...
like before)...um what else...I also used to think,
when I was depressed, that I was more of a loner...
now that I'm not (thanks to meds), I think that
i'm a lot more social, and need alot more sociability
than I used to.
I'm just rambling...but I've thought about it alot
too...and I definately think I've had to adjust to
"the new me"....and think is it "me", or is it
the drugs, or is it just me without the weight of
depression bogging down the real me?
I think it's the latter....
Posted by Roo on July 19, 1999, at 7:46:02
In reply to Re: ...wanting to conversate - Judy, posted by Roo on July 19, 1999, at 7:07:49
another thought is...the cranky you on serzone, the
peaceful you on another ad...maybe it's ALL you, and
the drug just exaggerates that normally small,
contained part of you. I felt like a cranky bee-otch
on serzone too! I kind of got off on it too, b/c
for once in my life I was being a bitch and I didn't
care! Usually I'll cringe if I'm just a little
mean or cranky to someone...on serzone I felt totally
self righteous! I kind of liked it for a little while..
But anyway, back to the topic/question...Is it REal or Is it
drug induced...That's the very thing that makes
experimenting with different meds, trying to find
the right one for me, so confusing--trying to sort of what
could be the normal me, just having a bad day, and
what's the drug effecting my brain chemistry in a
way that makes me anxious...I guess for me the true
test is always time. Also sometimes after philosophizing
in my head on this topic until my brain cramps, I
often come to the conclusion...that it's somewhat
irrelevent...I just want to be happy and productive
(not a machine, but you know what I mean)...and
I need to do what it takes to be that way...the
miserable Ruth is not who I want to be, the miserable
Ruth dosen't like life most of the time.
Anyway, time to stop philosophizing (my major in
college)--I'm actually at work right now!
This is the end of the thread.
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