![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 237 to 261 of 696. Go back in thread:
Posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 9:55:38
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » secretme, posted by SLS on May 26, 2006, at 21:31:02
May I ask why you are on this website? Obviously you know why all the people posting here are looking for help to get off Cymbalta. I answered why I believe Cymbalta is an extremely dangerous medication, yet you still ask the same question.
Prior to my breast cancer treatments, I was an employee benefits consultant. I fought like hell for my clients, especially against insurance and pharmaceutical companies. May I ask, without knowing who you are, what you do for a living?
If you haven't gleaned from all the postings that Cymbalta is a dangerous drug (I have been on this website since Christmas of 2005), then you are not reading what people have to say.
Again, if you feel that this drug is good for you, go ahead and take it. The people on this website are trying to get off it!!!!! I feel you are defending these medications a bit more strenuously than anyone else who has come to this website for help.
Do we need as many SSRIs "as it takes" to be well? Sounds like Eli Lilly talking.
I won't be around for a few weeks to get your answer, but maybe some of the other victims can question you. Not sure of your motives or agenda. I have been Cymbalta free and symptom free since the end of March 2006. If I can help anyone who wants to get off this medication, then I'll try. Of course, it's all based on my personal experiences. And my experiences seem to be shared by a lot of people here.
secretme
Posted by SLS on May 27, 2006, at 11:13:26
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » SLS, posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 9:55:38
> May I ask why you are on this website?
Because I can.
> Obviously you know why all the people posting here are looking for help to get off Cymbalta.
Along with many other drugs.
> I answered why I believe Cymbalta is an extremely dangerous medication,
I disagree. I do not think you have answered the question at all. It is a simple one. Perhaps you feel Cymbalta is dangerous because of the withdrawal effects it is known to sometimes precipitate upon its discontinuation. I can't tell from your posts what your reason is.
Many different drugs fall into this category, not just psychotropics.
> Prior to my breast cancer treatments, I was an employee benefits consultant. I fought like hell for my clients, especially against insurance and pharmaceutical companies. May I ask, without knowing who you are, what you do for a living?
You can ask. However, I choose not to answer at this time as it is not at all relevant to this thread. Things are the way they are whether I am a psychopharmacologist or a car salesman.
> If you haven't gleaned from all the postings that Cymbalta is a dangerous drug (I have been on this website since Christmas of 2005), then you are not reading what people have to say.
I am reading that people are having a difficult time discontinuing Cymbalta because of the precipitation of a withdrawal syndrome. What else is there? Side effects? I still don't understand what makes Cymbalta dangerous.
> Again, if you feel that this drug is good for you, go ahead and take it.
That's just the point. I want Cymbalta to remain available to me. I do not think it is a dangerous drug just because it produces a withdrawal syndrome upon its discontinuation. Tapering a medication in order to discontinue it is as important as titrating it in order to start it. I'm sorry that you had such a tough time with it. There are other strategies available to mitigate the withdrawal symptoms that occur in some people. Some people suffer no withdrawal symptoms at all. Those that do are attracted to this site, particularly this board. It is difficult to evaluate the occurrence of this phenomenon based on the posts here because the population here is so skewed towards people who have had difficulties with it.
> The people on this website are trying to get off it!!!!! I feel you are defending these medications a bit more strenuously than anyone else who has come to this website for help.
Someone has to.
> Do we need as many SSRIs "as it takes" to be well?
One is satisfactory as long as it gets everyone well. However, this is not yet the case.
> Sounds like Eli Lilly talking.
No. Just me.
> I won't be around for a few weeks to get your answer,
Take your time. I've been around here for over 6 years. I don't plan on going anywhere. Of course, I might not be motivated to respond to further posts along this thread.
> Not sure of your motives or agenda.
Again, I don't think this sort of thing is relevant to the pursuit of understanding.
> I have been Cymbalta free and symptom free since the end of March 2006.
You are fortunate indeed.
> If I can help anyone who wants to get off this medication, then I'll try.
Me too. I have in the past.
> Of course, it's all based on my personal experiences. And my experiences seem to be shared by a lot of people here.
Also shared here are the difficulties in treating some cases of mental illness. An individual might need to try many different drugs before they find a treatment that works. For some people, Cymbalta is the drug that works best. If it is not a dangerous drug, why should it not be available? Even if it is a dangerous drug, why should it not be available. Chemotherapy for cancer is dangerous if it is not administered properly. Many are cytotoxic, right?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 27, 2006, at 11:38:05
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by gapsgal on May 27, 2006, at 9:43:36
Hi Donna.
> Actually the effects it could produce on the liver are even noted in the eli lilly literature on the fda site.
Most drugs have potential side effects. Their rate of occurence is certainly relevant. What is the rate of occurrence of adverse events involving the liver? As part of the approval process, all treatment-emergent adverse events must be reported, even if they are not the result of the treatment being evaluated.
> Consider these things that are happening to us when we withdraw, the auditory and sensory things not to mention the physcial things. That tells us that it is doing something to our brain,
Definitely.
> and no one knows if there are any long-term side effects from these things occuring.
This can be said of any drug.
I guess it depends on how long the drug has been around for. Some antidepressants have been around for fifty years. The drugs that are being approved today were discovered, on the average, 20 years ago. We have some idea. However, there is always a chance that a significant adverse effect will emerge in the general population that did not present during the clinical trials. Yes, there is a degree of uncertainty.
> The doctors themselves say they dont know just how this helps it just does...well if that is the case then there should be lots more research on this.
There is an incredible amount of research being conducted in this area. Neuroscience is a field exploding with investigation. Internet search engines should provide you with evidence as to how large in scope and depth this research is.
> When addicts withdraw they have similiar symptoms and these are known to cause long-term damage to the brain...
Which things are known to cause damage, the drugs themselves or the withdrawal process? I think both can produce changes that persist. Unfortuately, these treatments are not what we would like them to be.
> anything that alters the brains way of working can permanently change things in the brain.
How do you know this? That is a rather sweeping statement that I have not yet seen stated in medical literature.
> Consider someone who is addicted to pain medicine, why? Because it has changed the way their brain works and chances are the change is permanent.
I am not sure that the permanence of these changes has yet been ascertained in research.
One thing that has not yet entered into this discussion is the impact mental illness has on one's ability to function and their quality of life. I feel that the degree to which these illnesses debilitate and cause pain is severe enough to be treated aggressively with drugs that are not yet perfect.
- Scott
Posted by Jaspar on May 27, 2006, at 12:32:07
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » SLS, posted by secretme on May 26, 2006, at 19:08:24
> I don't get it: how many SSRIs are necessary in the marketplace?
> From what I have learned about the medications I have taken in the past 12 years,
> most of them do the same thing (NOT true. Not only does Cymbalta work on Norepinephrine (SSRIs do not), each one works a bit differently. My daughter has tried 3 migraine meds which superficially work "the same", but they tweak or not, one different minor receptor each. That makes all the difference. One did nothing for her, one made her worse, and the 3rd has worked.
Cymbalta helped my nerve pain AND alleviated my depression. If not for the hives, I would still be on it.
There has been no indication that this medication has significant permanently life-threatening adverse effects like Vioxx did for the heart.
I do NOT want it pulled from the market, I just want TRUTH. I want EVERYONE TO KNOW, before getting on it what MIGHT happen coming off of it. That's all. Then it is up to the individual to decide. For some, such as myself, I would have said, "NO" - I would not start on it, and it makes me angry that I feel like I was tricked into getting on it.
For other people, they will decide that even if they have to go through hell to get off, because they have already tried everything else and failed, the possibility that this will work, is worth that risk.
-Jaspar
Posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 16:06:41
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » secretme, posted by SLS on May 27, 2006, at 11:13:26
I haven't left yet; wouldn't want to disappoint you. You definitely are not a used car salesman......
In reading the other postings, I think many have answered your questions, whether or not you wish to acknowledge or agree with them.
Please review some of the other threads posted in the past few days and respond to these people as well. You should be an equal opportunity responder to all problems posted by Cymbalta victims on this site.
Yes, you can come on this website to discuss the issues, but it is apparent you do not wish to join with many of us who want Lilly and/or the FDA to get Cymbalta off the market.
secretme
Posted by Jaspar on May 27, 2006, at 16:22:29
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » SLS, posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 16:06:41
> it is apparent you do not wish to join with many of us who want Lilly and/or the
> FDA to get Cymbalta off the market.
> secretmeNo - Scott is just, like me, waiting to pass jufgement until all the facts are in. I also have not seen in any post a secret life-threatening danger emerging from the use of Cymbalta. Yes it has potential adverse side-effects listed, but so do Tylenol and Ibuprofen, and all my child's medications. In fact, Risk of DEATH IS listed as a possible side-effect of one of her medications, yet for HER, that risk is worth it since she would have died anyway.
Depression is life-threatening, and even pain can cause a person to end his/her life.
What Scott and I are BOTH suggesting is that unless an unexpected, clear life-threatening hazard emerges from the use of Cymbalta, asking the FDA to "ban it" is premature.
What Scott and I are demanding is that the company CLEARLY WARN of the potential for SEVERE withdrawal that even tapering off with their manufactured capsule dosages will neither prevent nor alleviate. They should clearly state that it can take SIX MONTHS or more to withdraw from 60mg of Cymbalta, and that the paient may be having to decrease by 2 GRANULES every two days in order to not end up in the hospital suffering from severe vomiting and dehydration.
I am, in addition, suggesting that the company come up with tests to determine in advance who should NOT start on Cymbalta because of severe withdrawal... and doctors and patients should be notified that this test must be done porior to taking the drug.
Vioxx, on the other hand caused sudden, unexpected, irreversible DEATH. And now it is looking that the unexpected cardiovasular damage may be permanent to users of Vioxx who didn't even know that they may have suffered heart damage.
We are allowed our opinions. I'd like it if we stopped this bickering.
-Jaspar
Posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 16:32:33
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by Jaspar on May 27, 2006, at 12:32:07
Some illnesses, such as OCD, require more than one medication to help. Even with two or more medications, this condition is not curable. As you probably know, OCD is a biochemical disorder that doesn't always respond to one medication alone. With other conditions, such as high blood pressure, it may take one medication or sometimes four in combination to get the desired effect. If relief can't be attained in one medication, it might be wiser to take two or three that together will do the job instead of taking one that may hurt as much as it helps.
Scott probably has the scoop on this idea, although I'm sure he'll still plug Cymbalta.
secretme
Posted by doccybear on May 27, 2006, at 16:42:10
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal GOOD NEWS / Trying to HELP, posted by gapsgal on May 25, 2006, at 17:24:43
The doctor will know the corresponding dosage; I believe its 20mg. I wouldn't just take one dose I would stay on Prozac for a while and if you like it keep it if not ween off of that.
Posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 17:24:36
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by Jaspar on May 27, 2006, at 16:22:29
Death? You're kidding, right?
Prem-Pro, after being on the market for MORE THAN 30 YEARS, is now shown to cause a high incidence of breast cancer. So startling were the study's findings that they didn't even complete it before issuing the warning and recommending that women stop taking it. It's still on the market, but lets look at how many women take it now.
I don't need death -- actually breast cancer was enough -- to tell me that Prem-Pro is something I would no longer take.
We can all take the action we think necessary, and it is most likely impossible that Cymbalta will ever be taken off the market because of what any of us says. So, like Scott, you can rest easy.
Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, I'M FREE AT LAST!!!!
secretme
Posted by musky on May 27, 2006, at 23:41:25
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity » SLS, posted by secretme on May 27, 2006, at 16:06:41
>
Wow this thread is getting more interesting by the moment!!
you know if these damn drugs were ALL BANNED in the first place you would have alot of people much happier and not trying like hell to get off for many many many reasons...
I say DONT even start the drug , then you dont have to worry about W/D....
You have my support secretme in fighting against the drug companies..
I'll tell you one thing... I Work in a research lab and I can assure you that we are around drug companies (not our lab), but in our facility these crazy drug companies hover like vultures so that they can get research done to get thier drug on the market the fastest....
I see how they have their fancy dues , taking in the poor public with their"our medication can cure you of your mental illness crap" Well guess what mental illness is just a fancy way of giving a name to how we deal with life's issues... People need to get a hold of themselves and get back back to the basics... being spirtually , physically and emotionally whole... NOT pop a pill.
Dont get me wrong some medications have their place, but they are far , far way too overprescribed these days for EVERYTHING under the sun.... ESPECIALLY antidepressants!!! My God they even have adolescents on them!!! now thats child abuse if i ever seen it.... People MUST wake up and take hold of themselves and not be screwed up by meds... our society is going way outa control here... When people say they have a mental illness, unless they were born with a brain deformity... (that's extreme) , I think alot of your mental illnesses are excuses to get tough with yourself and get WELL on your own,,,, NOT self pity yourself and give your self a life sentence of negative self talk like "poor me ... I have to take an a/d forever."We got to stick together to get off these drugs
I dont know about cymbalta,,,, but it sounds to me like another wonder drug from hell
In conclusion... DOES ANYONE OUT THERE REALIZE THAT ECSTACY ,, THE REAL BAD DRUG OUT THERE THAT HAS CAUSED SO MUCH ATTENTION,AND DEATHS IN OUR YOUTH WAS ORIGINALLY AN ANTIDEPRESSANT??? IT WAS A FAILED ANTIDEPRESSANT ..
We better watch what we put in our mouthsOh by the way I am in cancer research and we are working real hard on gene therapy for treatment for cancers and using natures own viruses to help treat this disease.
Sorry to hear of your boutwith it secretme... hope you are well now.Gotta get back to my own thread
had to get my opinion out there!!Musky
I haven't left yet; wouldn't want to disappoint you. You definitely are not a used car salesman......
>
> In reading the other postings, I think many have answered your questions, whether or not you wish to acknowledge or agree with them.
>
> Please review some of the other threads posted in the past few days and respond to these people as well. You should be an equal opportunity responder to all problems posted by Cymbalta victims on this site.
>
> Yes, you can come on this website to discuss the issues, but it is apparent you do not wish to join with many of us who want Lilly and/or the FDA to get Cymbalta off the market.
>
> secretme
Posted by Nick K. on May 28, 2006, at 0:03:13
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal GOOD NEWS / Trying to HELP, posted by doccybear on May 27, 2006, at 16:42:10
Looks like there is a common denominator here that we can all agree on:
Cymbalta needs to publicly acknowlege and incorporate urgent and obvious warnings regarding the severity of withdrawal symptoms.
This is primarily for the sake of people that are not aware of what they are up against should they decide (with or without their doctors advice) to stop taking Cymbalta.
Those of us who agree that there is an issue here, should be taking some action to make this information known by way of news article, story, advertisement, law suit, phone call, whatever...
These medications are gaining popularity quickly and soon, "cosmetic neurology" will be promoting this drug and drugs like this for people who aren't even depressed.
Greed is the enemy here.
-Nick
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2006, at 8:48:15
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by musky on May 27, 2006, at 23:41:25
> Wow this thread is getting more interesting by the moment!!
> you know if these damn drugs were ALL BANNED in the first place you would have alot of people much happier...
> People MUST wake up and take hold of themselves and not be screwed up by meds... our society is going way outa control here... When people say they have a mental illness, unless they were born with a brain deformity... (that's extreme) , I think alot of your mental illnesses are excuses to get tough with yourself and get WELL on your own,,,, NOT self pity yourself and give your self a life sentence of negative self talk like "poor me ... I have to take an a/d forever."
It is very possible that you never had the disorder that antidepressants were meant to treat.Perhaps the condition that you are treating is not a biologically-driven mental illness. If it is not, then you have the potential to change the way you feel by changing the way you think. However, when it comes to major depressive disorder and bipolar disorder, this is often not the case. The operation of the brain in these conditions is abnormal. This has been demonstrated both functionally and structurally. These illnesses are serious, debilitating, and painful, and demand aggressive biological treatments.
I don't think it is in the best interest of society to deny effective treatments to those who suffer from an otherwise intractable illness.
- Scott
Posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 9:21:28
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by Jaspar on May 27, 2006, at 16:22:29
Those warnings would be nice, it would also be nice if the physicians didnt treat us like crazy idiots when we mention this withdrawal. Eli Lilly should be forthright about all of this and the doctors need to listen. Even if Eli Lilly didnt, then the doctors should do a little research themselves before giving us the meds.
A test for tolerance sounds like a great idea to me as well. Further I think they should have some type of tapering package so that we dont have to do the granule thing (that is hell in itself).
Donna
> > it is apparent you do not wish to join with many of us who want Lilly and/or the
> > FDA to get Cymbalta off the market.
> > secretme
>
> No - Scott is just, like me, waiting to pass jufgement until all the facts are in. I also have not seen in any post a secret life-threatening danger emerging from the use of Cymbalta. Yes it has potential adverse side-effects listed, but so do Tylenol and Ibuprofen, and all my child's medications. In fact, Risk of DEATH IS listed as a possible side-effect of one of her medications, yet for HER, that risk is worth it since she would have died anyway.
>
> Depression is life-threatening, and even pain can cause a person to end his/her life.
>
> What Scott and I are BOTH suggesting is that unless an unexpected, clear life-threatening hazard emerges from the use of Cymbalta, asking the FDA to "ban it" is premature.
>
> What Scott and I are demanding is that the company CLEARLY WARN of the potential for SEVERE withdrawal that even tapering off with their manufactured capsule dosages will neither prevent nor alleviate. They should clearly state that it can take SIX MONTHS or more to withdraw from 60mg of Cymbalta, and that the paient may be having to decrease by 2 GRANULES every two days in order to not end up in the hospital suffering from severe vomiting and dehydration.
>
> I am, in addition, suggesting that the company come up with tests to determine in advance who should NOT start on Cymbalta because of severe withdrawal... and doctors and patients should be notified that this test must be done porior to taking the drug.
>
> Vioxx, on the other hand caused sudden, unexpected, irreversible DEATH. And now it is looking that the unexpected cardiovasular damage may be permanent to users of Vioxx who didn't even know that they may have suffered heart damage.
>
> We are allowed our opinions. I'd like it if we stopped this bickering.
>
> -Jaspar
>
>
Posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:24:43
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by musky on May 27, 2006, at 23:41:25
>My God they even have adolescents on them!!! now that's child abuse if i ever seen it....
Some of these antidepressants are used to help treat illnesses ... and NOT treating those illnesses is CHILD ABUSE. You do NOT know the whole story behind each individual's use of a medication.
The problem we should be addressing is WHY so many more of our children are so ill. There are so many more cases of Autism, Aspergers, OCD, Depression, Bipolar Disorder and Psychotic illnesses in our children... not just being diagnosed, but for REAL. These children have very real illnesses. The question is not whether to treat - these children are SUFFERING - the question is WHY. There has been a huge cover-up for so many years about the affects of modern living on both our growing fetuses and on young children. We have one baby BORM with a neurobiological brain disorder. It is NOT a "MENTAL" illness. Just because the brain is involved does not make it any less REAL as if it were the pancreas involved.
If you want to attack something, it is OK to attack the drug companies, our governement, etc... BUT DON'T ATTACK ALL PARENTS just because we try to use medication to help give our child a LIFE!! Not too long ago kids like ours were locked up in "mental" institutions. Now, with hormones, herbs, nutrition, and a slew of medications (not all of which are considered "psychotropic", they have a chance at a LIFE which the generation before US did NOT have!!!
-Jaspar
Posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:28:34
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity, posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 9:21:28
> Those warnings would be nice, it would also be nice if the physicians didnt
> treat us like crazy idiots when we mention this withdrawal.
> Eli Lilly should be forthright about all of this and the doctors need to listen.
> Even if Eli Lilly didnt, then the doctors should do a little research
> themselves before giving us the meds.
>
> A test for tolerance sounds like a great idea to me as well.
> Further I think they should have some type of tapering package so that we
> dont have to do the granule thing (that is hell in itself).
>
> Donna
Thank you, Donna. You have summed it up well.-Jaspar
Posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:39:17
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal - Publicity Great summary, posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:28:34
After all this talk about not even starting, I feel weird asking this, but this is real life...
A friend of mine is considering starting on either Effexor or Cymbalta. He knows the possible withdrawal symptoms, but right now he has no life. He has tries a slew of SSRIs that gave hive horrible side-effects that you would expect from a neuroleptic - NOT from a mere SSRI. The doctor expects that an SSRI/Norepinephrine med may have the same effect, but not sure.
He cannot afford meds, and can only take ones are given away as freebies. Which of these two is the lesser of two evils?
He wants to know - which withdrawal is worse - Effexor or Cymbalta... so I am asking any of you who have suffered through withdrawal from both - which was worse?
And a question for those of you who are adamantly against taking anything... WHAT therapy is available to train/restructure the brain to eliminate a severe anxiety disorder? I guess I ought to take that question to another board...
-Jaspar
Posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 11:58:18
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:39:17
> After all this talk about not even starting, I feel weird asking this, but this is real life...
>
> A friend of mine is considering starting on either Effexor or Cymbalta. He knows the possible withdrawal symptoms, but right now he has no life. He has tries a slew of SSRIs that gave hive horrible side-effects that you would expect from a neuroleptic - NOT from a mere SSRI. The doctor expects that an SSRI/Norepinephrine med may have the same effect, but not sure.
>
> He cannot afford meds, and can only take ones are given away as freebies. Which of these two is the lesser of two evils?
>
> He wants to know - which withdrawal is worse - Effexor or Cymbalta... so I am asking any of you who have suffered through withdrawal from both - which was worse?
>
> And a question for those of you who are adamantly against taking anything... WHAT therapy is available to train/restructure the brain to eliminate a severe anxiety disorder? I guess I ought to take that question to another board...
>
> -JasparHi Jaspar,
I originally went on Cymbalta for a severe daily panic attack disorder. It was the wonder "mind" drug. Little did I know how insidious it was. My BP was always on the low side. Suddenly it was high and I was put on BP meds. I never had belly fat. Suddenly I have more than my share along with an extra 25 pounds. My thyroid was tested and my meds were adjusted. I never had heart problems but started having my left arm going numb, tightness in my chest and shoulders, etc. I was sent for extensive tests and my heart is great. My skin started changing. Moles are arriving all over the place. I went to the dermatologist. She can't figure it out. Migraine headaches started. I'm now on my fourth day of cold turkey after a year and 1/2 on 60mg of Cymbalta. My symptoms of the above mentioned disorders have worsened ten fold (except for the panic and I'll get to that shortly). My body is so bloated my husband had to cut my wedding rings off. Not to mention how badly bloated my tummy is! My face and neck are swollen too (btw..this started several months ago and after being tested for mumps and seeing and ENT doc. Guess what!? I'm fine and they don't know what is causing this along with outside ear pain...). The headaches are horrible. The numbness and pain in my arm is worse than ever not to mention that all of my muscles in my body are screaming. Last night I had a dream that I was looking down at myself sleeping and I wasn't breathing. I had to tell myself to breath. I woke up and told my husband that I was either going to vomit or my heart was going to give out. Now, I'm one of the most optomistic people on the face of the earth and I have a wonderful life (finally after all that went down the past 3 years...death, a wonderful 20 year marriage abruptly ending, more death, losing my home, nearly losing my daughter, so much more and the reason for the panic attacks, but you get the picture). That being said, I know I'll get through it I just have to find a way to get my body back to what it was before Cymbalta. Long story for a relatively short answer. The withdrawal symptoms seem to be a magnification of the problems of the body that crop up while on the drug. The things that we and our doctors think are due to aging, etc. Anxiety & panic? My way out and what has worked for me was being mindful and seeing a hypnotherapist and having monthly body massage. Not the stage kind. This person worked on relaxation techniques while taping our sessions along with relaxation music. Everytime I listened to my tape/s while going to sleep I noticed something so profund that I had not noticed before. It's a beautiful thing. I also went for healing touch and that is also a very relaxing and a mindful thing to do. I've worked in the mental health field for 30 years and work for the largest non-profit mental health agency in VT. We promote trying to heal the body without drugs, with our own mind calming techniques. Nutrition is a big thing as well. But I'm sure we all know that.
I don't know about Effexor as I've never been on an antidepressent/anti anxiety drug before this.
Please ask you friend when he is having a panic attack to focus on something in the room and just smile, breath, and say, "I'm in the moment." It just may work. It has been my saving grace, so to speak.
KParis
~ Contemplation often makes life miserable. We should act more, think less, and stop watching ourselves live.
~ Nicolas
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2006, at 12:32:37
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 9:39:17
What is your friend suffering with?
For depression, your friend might consider trying one of the older tricyclic antidepressants (TCA). Nortriptyline is one of the better ones. Side effects are relatively mild, and there is much less liability for it producing a withdrawal syndrome upon its discontination.
CBT and desensitization training are psychotherapeutic modalities often employed when treating anxiety disorders. It depends on which disorder is being treated.
Don't be afraid to post your questions on one of the other boards. You will probably receive suggestions that are more enlightened than my own.
- Scott
> After all this talk about not even starting, I feel weird asking this, but this is real life...
>
> A friend of mine is considering starting on either Effexor or Cymbalta. He knows the possible withdrawal symptoms, but right now he has no life. He has tries a slew of SSRIs that gave hive horrible side-effects that you would expect from a neuroleptic - NOT from a mere SSRI. The doctor expects that an SSRI/Norepinephrine med may have the same effect, but not sure.
>
> He cannot afford meds, and can only take ones are given away as freebies. Which of these two is the lesser of two evils?
>
> He wants to know - which withdrawal is worse - Effexor or Cymbalta... so I am asking any of you who have suffered through withdrawal from both - which was worse?
>
> And a question for those of you who are adamantly against taking anything... WHAT therapy is available to train/restructure the brain to eliminate a severe anxiety disorder? I guess I ought to take that question to another board...
>
> -Jaspar
Posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 15:44:59
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 11:58:18
It is hard to imagine anything being worse than cymbalta, but then there is effexor, it has an even shorter half-life. So after just an hour or so of missing a dose or being late the withdrawals begin...the cymbalta withdrawals are just as bad but take a bit longer to start.
> > After all this talk about not even starting, I feel weird asking this, but this is real life...
> >
> > A friend of mine is considering starting on either Effexor or Cymbalta. He knows the possible withdrawal symptoms, but right now he has no life. He has tries a slew of SSRIs that gave hive horrible side-effects that you would expect from a neuroleptic - NOT from a mere SSRI. The doctor expects that an SSRI/Norepinephrine med may have the same effect, but not sure.
> >
> > He cannot afford meds, and can only take ones are given away as freebies. Which of these two is the lesser of two evils?
> >
> > He wants to know - which withdrawal is worse - Effexor or Cymbalta... so I am asking any of you who have suffered through withdrawal from both - which was worse?
> >
> > And a question for those of you who are adamantly against taking anything... WHAT therapy is available to train/restructure the brain to eliminate a severe anxiety disorder? I guess I ought to take that question to another board...
> >
> > -Jaspar
>
> Hi Jaspar,
>
> I originally went on Cymbalta for a severe daily panic attack disorder. It was the wonder "mind" drug. Little did I know how insidious it was. My BP was always on the low side. Suddenly it was high and I was put on BP meds. I never had belly fat. Suddenly I have more than my share along with an extra 25 pounds. My thyroid was tested and my meds were adjusted. I never had heart problems but started having my left arm going numb, tightness in my chest and shoulders, etc. I was sent for extensive tests and my heart is great. My skin started changing. Moles are arriving all over the place. I went to the dermatologist. She can't figure it out. Migraine headaches started. I'm now on my fourth day of cold turkey after a year and 1/2 on 60mg of Cymbalta. My symptoms of the above mentioned disorders have worsened ten fold (except for the panic and I'll get to that shortly). My body is so bloated my husband had to cut my wedding rings off. Not to mention how badly bloated my tummy is! My face and neck are swollen too (btw..this started several months ago and after being tested for mumps and seeing and ENT doc. Guess what!? I'm fine and they don't know what is causing this along with outside ear pain...). The headaches are horrible. The numbness and pain in my arm is worse than ever not to mention that all of my muscles in my body are screaming. Last night I had a dream that I was looking down at myself sleeping and I wasn't breathing. I had to tell myself to breath. I woke up and told my husband that I was either going to vomit or my heart was going to give out. Now, I'm one of the most optomistic people on the face of the earth and I have a wonderful life (finally after all that went down the past 3 years...death, a wonderful 20 year marriage abruptly ending, more death, losing my home, nearly losing my daughter, so much more and the reason for the panic attacks, but you get the picture). That being said, I know I'll get through it I just have to find a way to get my body back to what it was before Cymbalta. Long story for a relatively short answer. The withdrawal symptoms seem to be a magnification of the problems of the body that crop up while on the drug. The things that we and our doctors think are due to aging, etc. Anxiety & panic? My way out and what has worked for me was being mindful and seeing a hypnotherapist and having monthly body massage. Not the stage kind. This person worked on relaxation techniques while taping our sessions along with relaxation music. Everytime I listened to my tape/s while going to sleep I noticed something so profund that I had not noticed before. It's a beautiful thing. I also went for healing touch and that is also a very relaxing and a mindful thing to do. I've worked in the mental health field for 30 years and work for the largest non-profit mental health agency in VT. We promote trying to heal the body without drugs, with our own mind calming techniques. Nutrition is a big thing as well. But I'm sure we all know that.
>
> I don't know about Effexor as I've never been on an antidepressent/anti anxiety drug before this.
>
> Please ask you friend when he is having a panic attack to focus on something in the room and just smile, breath, and say, "I'm in the moment." It just may work. It has been my saving grace, so to speak.
>
> KParis
>
> ~ Contemplation often makes life miserable. We should act more, think less, and stop watching ourselves live.
> ~ Nicolas
>
Posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 16:38:38
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 15:44:59
I'll tell you what. I'm just under 48 hours of stopping the Cymbalta and I am having a rough time. Man! For someone who is usually so happy I feel like crap, strange, hollow and full all at the same time. My head doesn't seem to belong to me...I'm sad, angry, dizzy, blocked, nauseated, tingling, bloated, heavy-hearted, teary, leg cramps, just plain awful...not to mention the dreams...too strange. How long does this usually last? I mean the really bad withdrawal? HELP! I will never put Cymbalta into my body again.
Kparis
Posted by llrrrpp on May 28, 2006, at 16:43:56
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 16:38:38
I'm linking a post that I put on psycho-babble main (meds) board. I'm wondering if it's relevant to the discussion of Cymbalta withdrawal
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060525/msgs/649206.html
also
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060525/msgs/649211.html
I'm interested in hearing whether these effects are consistent with withdrawal symptoms, or whether they're something else.
p.s. I haven't experienced side effects from cymbalta, besides mild dry mouth in at least 2 weeks. When I first started I had pretty much every side effect in the book. It was rough.
Thanks so much!
-ll
Posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 19:05:29
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 16:38:38
> I'm just under 48 hours of stopping the Cymbalta and I am having a rough time.
>... How long does this usually last? I mean the really bad withdrawal?
> KparisI cannot say how long it is that bad because I would have ended up in the emergency room with dehydration. I was vomiting so badly that I had dry heaves... I could not keep down water, gatorade, or anything.
What I finally had to do was dissolve a benzodiazipine in my parched throat, and after becoming drowsy enough, opened a capsule of Cymbalta and took a partial dose and went to sleep. It was the middle of the day. I felt all better when I woke up about 4 hours later. After that, I weaned myself of, being careful to not go too fast and wind up in that situation again.
I will say that even with tapering it slowly (6 months to get off of 60mg) it has been about two weeks since my last 2 granules of it, and my withdrawal symptoms are down to brief visual/vertigo phenomena a dozen times a day.
-Jaspar
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2006, at 19:05:33
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by kparis on May 28, 2006, at 16:38:38
> I'll tell you what. I'm just under 48 hours of stopping the Cymbalta and I am having a rough time.
How did you go about discontinuing Cymbalta?
The length of the withdrawal syndrome is variable. It can last for a few days or a few weeks. Some people report having residual symptoms for months. It seems to me that the syndrome is longest for those people who discontinue the drug abruptly - "cold-turkey". I would recommend tapering the dosage of Cymbalta gradually.
Sometimes, people cross over to Prozac temporarily. It is often easier to withdraw from Prozac because it has such a long half-life. Some people need to take the Prozac only a few times over a period of two weeks.
If you are against returning to an antidepressant, you might be able to mitigate the withdrawal symptoms using Benadryl (diphenhydramine), an over-the-counter antihistamine. I have seen Phenergan suggested as an alternative. It might offer more relief than Benadryl, especially with nausea and anxiety. Certain anticonvulsants have been suggested.
Alternative remedies suggested include St. John's Wort and 5-HTP. I'll let others who know more about herbal and nutritional remedies describe them.
If it were me, I would first try using a flexible-dosing strategy to taper Cymbalta. It is unfortunate that there aren't doses smaller than 20mg. You will need to open the capsules and separate out fractions. Some people actually count pellets. I recommend taking very small amounts of Cymbalta several times a day. You can take a small dose whenever you feel the withdrawal symptoms beginning to reappear. Try to take an amount small enough such that it lasts for 6-8 hours. You can estimate. You don't need to be precise. However, you do need to wait until the withdrawal symptoms reappear before taking your next dose. You should find that you need smaller and smaller amounts of Cymbalta to prevent withdrawal symptoms for a given period.
I have been able to discontinue Effexor 300mg within two weeks using a flexible dosing strategy. It is not necessary to suffer for so long.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 19:14:12
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by gapsgal on May 28, 2006, at 15:44:59
Well I am stuck at 15 mgs. The symptoms are just too bad when I go any lower...so I think I am going to try the prozac solution that has been suggested. Since the couple of doctors I have been too think I am an idiot for having withdrawals and one told me that I could have a fatal syndrome if I took prozac...dummy didnt think that I would not still be taking cymbalta too...I will have to buy it online I assume.
This really stinks now I feel like a doper...
> It is hard to imagine anything being worse than cymbalta, but then there is effexor, it has an even shorter half-life. So after just an hour or so of missing a dose or being late the withdrawals begin...the cymbalta withdrawals are just as bad but take a bit longer to start.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > After all this talk about not even starting, I feel weird asking this, but this is real life...
> > >
> > > A friend of mine is considering starting on either Effexor or Cymbalta. He knows the possible withdrawal symptoms, but right now he has no life. He has tries a slew of SSRIs that gave hive horrible side-effects that you would expect from a neuroleptic - NOT from a mere SSRI. The doctor expects that an SSRI/Norepinephrine med may have the same effect, but not sure.
> > >
> > > He cannot afford meds, and can only take ones are given away as freebies. Which of these two is the lesser of two evils?
> > >
> > > He wants to know - which withdrawal is worse - Effexor or Cymbalta... so I am asking any of you who have suffered through withdrawal from both - which was worse?
> > >
> > > And a question for those of you who are adamantly against taking anything... WHAT therapy is available to train/restructure the brain to eliminate a severe anxiety disorder? I guess I ought to take that question to another board...
> > >
> > > -Jaspar
> >
> > Hi Jaspar,
> >
> > I originally went on Cymbalta for a severe daily panic attack disorder. It was the wonder "mind" drug. Little did I know how insidious it was. My BP was always on the low side. Suddenly it was high and I was put on BP meds. I never had belly fat. Suddenly I have more than my share along with an extra 25 pounds. My thyroid was tested and my meds were adjusted. I never had heart problems but started having my left arm going numb, tightness in my chest and shoulders, etc. I was sent for extensive tests and my heart is great. My skin started changing. Moles are arriving all over the place. I went to the dermatologist. She can't figure it out. Migraine headaches started. I'm now on my fourth day of cold turkey after a year and 1/2 on 60mg of Cymbalta. My symptoms of the above mentioned disorders have worsened ten fold (except for the panic and I'll get to that shortly). My body is so bloated my husband had to cut my wedding rings off. Not to mention how badly bloated my tummy is! My face and neck are swollen too (btw..this started several months ago and after being tested for mumps and seeing and ENT doc. Guess what!? I'm fine and they don't know what is causing this along with outside ear pain...). The headaches are horrible. The numbness and pain in my arm is worse than ever not to mention that all of my muscles in my body are screaming. Last night I had a dream that I was looking down at myself sleeping and I wasn't breathing. I had to tell myself to breath. I woke up and told my husband that I was either going to vomit or my heart was going to give out. Now, I'm one of the most optomistic people on the face of the earth and I have a wonderful life (finally after all that went down the past 3 years...death, a wonderful 20 year marriage abruptly ending, more death, losing my home, nearly losing my daughter, so much more and the reason for the panic attacks, but you get the picture). That being said, I know I'll get through it I just have to find a way to get my body back to what it was before Cymbalta. Long story for a relatively short answer. The withdrawal symptoms seem to be a magnification of the problems of the body that crop up while on the drug. The things that we and our doctors think are due to aging, etc. Anxiety & panic? My way out and what has worked for me was being mindful and seeing a hypnotherapist and having monthly body massage. Not the stage kind. This person worked on relaxation techniques while taping our sessions along with relaxation music. Everytime I listened to my tape/s while going to sleep I noticed something so profund that I had not noticed before. It's a beautiful thing. I also went for healing touch and that is also a very relaxing and a mindful thing to do. I've worked in the mental health field for 30 years and work for the largest non-profit mental health agency in VT. We promote trying to heal the body without drugs, with our own mind calming techniques. Nutrition is a big thing as well. But I'm sure we all know that.
> >
> > I don't know about Effexor as I've never been on an antidepressent/anti anxiety drug before this.
> >
> > Please ask you friend when he is having a panic attack to focus on something in the room and just smile, breath, and say, "I'm in the moment." It just may work. It has been my saving grace, so to speak.
> >
> > KParis
> >
> > ~ Contemplation often makes life miserable. We should act more, think less, and stop watching ourselves live.
> > ~ Nicolas
> >
>
>
Posted by Jaspar on May 28, 2006, at 19:16:12
In reply to Re: Cymbalta withdrawal vs Effexor, posted by SLS on May 28, 2006, at 12:32:37
> What is your friend suffering with?
He has depression and generalized (but severe) anxiety - no panic attacks. Because of a life situation, his anxiety and depression has increased, and his motivation has decreased. I know the Cymbalta & Effexor can help the motivation issue. I don't understand how they can help the anxiety since norepinepherine is already supposed to be HIGH in anxiety.
> For depression, your friend might consider trying one of the older tricyclic antidepressants (TCA).
> Nortriptyline is one of the better ones. Side effects are relatively mild,
> and there is much less liability for it producing a withdrawal syndrome
> upon its discontination.Would that help anxiety and motivation?
> CBT and desensitization training are psychotherapeutic modalities
> often employed when treating anxiety disorders.
> It depends on which disorder is being treated.I wish these methods were covered by regular insurance. For pharmaceuticals only to be covered is a great American scam. Meds only work while being taken, and often do not work at all.
CBT, etc can work long-term.-Jaspar
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