![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 28 to 52 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 19:34:59
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » Deneb, posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 19:06:33
> healthy boundaries
Boundaries! I don't know why I didn't think of boundaries! LOL I completely forgot about boundaries.
I think I get it now. Dr. Bob can't accept my gift because he doesn't want to be my friend? That sounds a little horrible. Maybe Dr. Bob wants to be my friend but he can't because he has to be objective as an administrator? Maybe Dr. Bob doesn't want to encourage my love obsession for him by sending me mixed messages and confusing me? That means Dr. Bob doesn't like me loving him. :-( But then he said that he appreciates the love...so what does it mean?
I'm getting confused. LegWarmers, you seem to have a good grasp of why Dr. Bob can't accept my scarf....can you explain it to me more?
Would Dr. Bob have accepted my gift if I didn't love him? Would Dr. Bob accept my money? He would probably accept money right? I think he has accepted donations from posters.
Deneb
Posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 19:55:39
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 19:34:59
> > healthy boundaries
>
> Boundaries! I don't know why I didn't think of boundaries! LOL I completely forgot about boundaries.yeah, those darn things are kind of important ; )
>
> I think I get it now. Dr. Bob can't accept my gift because he doesn't want to be my friend? That sounds a little horrible.Thats one way to look at it. He needs to keep a certain level of distance from posters. you know? It isn't horrible at all, I personally would find it odd if he accepted gifts.
>Maybe Dr. Bob wants to be my friend but he can't because he has to be objective as an administrator?
You could look at it that way too. But you have to remember that there are how many posters on this board? you know? We are like a ball point pen to him... this is my interpretation anyway. I have so many of those little blue pens all over the place and if I gave them all a name in addition to remembering all my in real life stuff I would never remember which pen was which. sorry, that was a really dumb example but thats what came to me. So I wouldn't take it personally that he doesn't want the gift. It is about rules, and I persona;;y like rules, because without them the world would become havoc. but back to the scarf, we are not Bob's friends, we are posters he administates. And maybe he thinks of us more as pens with a name rather then just ball point pens, I don't know. But this is my take on it.
>Maybe Dr. Bob doesn't want to encourage my love obsession for him by sending me mixed messages and confusing me?
Very likely. And also, we don't know how many people have secret love obsessions with him, do we? So for all we know he gets love letters all day. How would he keep up lol
>That means Dr. Bob doesn't like me loving him. :-( But then he said that he appreciates the love...so what does it mean?
Im sure he has no problems being loved, we all like to be loved. And I think its clear that your love is innocent. When he said he appreciates the love you put into it, I take that as, he is acknowleding that you have put a lot of your time and thought and love into it and he wants you to know he understands that. But at the same time he feels that he can't accept the scarf, and I would guess that it has NOTHING to do with the love you put into it. I think he wanted you to know, I hear that you worked hard on this for me, but...
>
> I'm getting confused. LegWarmers, you seem to have a good grasp of why Dr. Bob can't accept my scarf....can you explain it to me more?How did I do? he may have completely differnet reasons and if I am straying maybe he can come in and tell me to be quiet.
>
> Would Dr. Bob have accepted my gift if I didn't love him?I don't think so. His decision to accept it, I think, was separate completly from the love. Other than, It probably made it harder for him to say, I can't accept it.
>Would Dr. Bob accept my money?
Its not likely he would accept it as a pesonal gift, but I would : D j/k
and he doesn't seem that interested in bribes either ; )
j/k again!!>He would probably accept money right? I think he has accepted donations from posters.
*Donations* for the site is the key word.. just to assist in the upkeep of the boards.
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 20:38:54
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » Deneb, posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 19:55:39
> > > healthy boundaries
> yeah, those darn things are kind of important ; )
I think I cross boundaries often. Is it okay for me to cross them? Dr. Bob maintains his boundaries so it shouldn't be much of a problem if I cross them right?
> > I think I get it now. Dr. Bob can't accept my gift because he doesn't want to be my friend? That sounds a little horrible.
>
> Thats one way to look at it. He needs to keep a certain level of distance from posters.I wish he didn't have to do that. Hmmm...but then again would I love him as much if he didn't distance himself? Interesting question.
> >Maybe Dr. Bob wants to be my friend but he can't because he has to be objective as an administrator?
>
> You could look at it that way too. But you have to remember that there are how many posters on this board? you know? We are like a ball point pen to him... this is my interpretation anyway.Dr. Bob wrote:
> I'm sorry about not being able to reply promptly to everyone. Please don't take it personally. It doesn't mean you're just a drop in the bucket or I'm not interested. I have warm feelings for everyone who posts, because everyone who posts helps the community by contributing their unique voice.
>
> Bobhttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/614133.html
He said he doesn't think we are just drops in a bucket. (or pens in your case)
>I have so many of those little blue pens all over the place and if I gave them all a name in addition to remembering all my in real life stuff I would never remember which pen was which.
I think I post here often enough that he would remember me...
> And maybe he thinks of us more as pens with a name rather then just ball point pens, I don't know. But this is my take on it.
I think he thinks we are much more than just names.
> >He would probably accept money right? I think he has accepted donations from posters.
>
> *Donations* for the site is the key word.. just to assist in the upkeep of the boards.I want to make Bob happy and show him my love by donating money, but I don't have my own money right now. I gotta get a job first.
Deneb*
Posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 20:53:33
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 20:38:54
> > > > healthy boundaries
>
> > yeah, those darn things are kind of important ; )
>
> I think I cross boundaries often. Is it okay for me to cross them? Dr. Bob maintains his boundaries so it shouldn't be much of a problem if I cross them right?If you cross them with Bob? What I have learned through my life is that boundries are vital. Without them people feel uncomfortable, people get into fights, people violate others' space. Boundries may seem insignificant now, but they are really important.
> I wish he didn't have to do that. Hmmm...but then again would I love him as much if he didn't distance himself? Interesting question.
it is.
> Dr. Bob wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry about not being able to reply promptly to everyone. Please don't take it personally. It doesn't mean you're just a drop in the bucket or I'm not interested. I have warm feelings for everyone who posts, because everyone who posts helps the community by contributing their unique voice.
> >
> > Bob
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060225/msgs/614133.html
>
> He said he doesn't think we are just drops in a bucket. (or pens in your case)
>
> >I have so many of those little blue pens all over the place and if I gave them all a name in addition to remembering all my in real life stuff I would never remember which pen was which.
>
> I think I post here often enough that he would remember me...I was being slightly extreme, I supose what I was getting at is that he has his 'life' too. Im sure he would know LegWarmers as well... but I still think we are a bunch of pens in a bulk size package ; )
> I think he thinks we are much more than just names.Yeah.. but we are posters, not friends, and thats important to remember.
>
> I want to make Bob happy and show him my love by donating money, but I don't have my own money right now. I gotta get a job first.So, to you, is this place all about Bob? Or do you also see it as a community with Bob administering?
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:13:09
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » Deneb, posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 20:53:33
>Boundries may seem insignificant now, but they are really important.
I guess this means that asking Dr. Bob for a hug in real life is crossing boundaries? I can ask posters for hugs but not Dr. Bob? :-(
> I was being slightly extreme, I supose what I was getting at is that he has his 'life' too. Im sure he would know LegWarmers as well... but I still think we are a bunch of pens in a bulk size package ; )I think Dr. Bob likes us and cares about us. :-) He wouldn't spend so much time on the site if he didn't.
> Yeah.. but we are posters, not friends, and thats important to remember.
I'll try my best. :-)
> So, to you, is this place all about Bob? Or do you also see it as a community with Bob administering?
No, this place is not all about Bob. It's about people like and me.
Deneb*
Posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 21:20:57
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:13:09
> >Boundries may seem insignificant now, but they are really important.
>
> I guess this means that asking Dr. Bob for a hug in real life is crossing boundaries? I can ask posters for hugs but not Dr. Bob? :-(ok thats a boundry that I have never had to deal with... I've never hugged a board administrator before ; ) hm..I dunno what his rules would be on that. Hugs can be viewed differnetly, they are often a greeting... so it depends. i would be curious what Bob has to say about that. But my gut says he would have a hug rule too.
> I think Dr. Bob likes us and cares about us. :-) He wouldn't spend so much time on the site if he didn't.Im sure he does too
>
> > Yeah.. but we are posters, not friends, and thats important to remember.
>
> I'll try my best. :-)thats all you can do. it can be confusing when boudries get fuzzy.
>
> > So, to you, is this place all about Bob? Or do you also see it as a community with Bob administering?
>
> No, this place is not all about Bob. It's about people like and me.I was just curious btw... I hope that didn't come across rude, reading it with your response... made it look diffenret to me just now.
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:39:52
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf » Deneb, posted by LegWarmers on April 4, 2006, at 21:20:57
> ok thats a boundry that I have never had to deal with... I've never hugged a board administrator before ; ) hm..I dunno what his rules would be on that. Hugs can be viewed differnetly, they are often a greeting... so it depends. i would be curious what Bob has to say about that. But my gut says he would have a hug rule too.
I think I'll ask Dr. Bob if I can hug him. Not a big long hug, just a short little hug.
> I was just curious btw... I hope that didn't come across rude, reading it with your response... made it look diffenret to me just now.No it didn't come across as rude. You were just asking a question.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:52:28
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:39:52
Dr. Bob, pleeeease don't say no to a hug. Please, pretty please? You won't be the only one getting a hug, I promise. I promise I won't write about whether you hugged me or not on the boards.
Deneb*
Posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 22:14:03
In reply to Re: the cold of winter, posted by zazenduck on April 4, 2006, at 18:53:15
> I still think he should have accepted a small gift and said Thank You.
But I don't think this is a small gift at this point. Deneb has posted about this, about how much love she's knitting into it, etc. That makes it a pretty symbolic gift, and frankly? I'd feel pretty uncomfortable about it, too. I don't think it's just that he's a mental health professional, nor that he's the owner of this forum. I think it's just a case of it feeling weird to have someone offer him a gift with so much personal signifigance and symbolism.
And put it in perspective, too: Deneb is a new knitter, knitting is very important to her and a sort of miraculous process for her. Anything she makes right now is hugely significant, and very personal.
That's the way I've been seeing it, at least.
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:25:55
In reply to Dr. Bob, please don't say no, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:52:28
Sorry, I didn't mean to pressure you Dr. Bob. You can do whatever you want, no pressure.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:28:30
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please don't say no, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:25:55
No pressure. I will be civil.
Deneb*
Posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 22:31:28
In reply to Dr. Bob, please don't say no, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 21:52:28
Another issue which may come into play for Dr Bob has to do with some professional rules, and some tax rules. Dr Bob, as we know, is a mental health professional, and he writes articles and papers on the subject of Babble. That makes it part of his PROFESSIONAL life, and he can't be paid by the subjects of his research. And The Scarf is payment, according to the tax laws.
But more important, Deneb, is that pesky boundary issue. I realize you "love" Dr Bob -- but part of loving someone is respecting that person, and that person's boundaries. Do you think you're doing that right now?
And a word about hugs: Not everyone is OK about hugs, not everyone is OK about being touched. I'm not OK about being hugged -- you'll notice I never do the cyber hug thing, even -- and if someone ignored that boundary, I'd be very angry, I'd feel very much disrespected and disregarded. It would *not* feel "loving" to me, for someone to ignore my boundaries and hug me anyway. It's perfectly possible that Dr Bob is also not comfortable with being hugged. Please respect his boundaries, on the hug and on the scarf.
Deneb, can you try to love the scarf you're knitting because *you* are making it? Because it's something that feels good to *you,* without it having to be for someone else? Can you transfer some of that "love" from Dr Bob to yourself?
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:32:04
In reply to I think you answered that yourself » zazenduck, posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 22:14:03
> And put it in perspective, too: Deneb is a new knitter, knitting is very important to her and a sort of miraculous process for her. Anything she makes right now is hugely significant, and very personal.
Bob's scarf was the first thing I ever knit to completion. I used to always lose interest and get bored. I guess it is pretty significant.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:41:25
In reply to Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Deneb, posted by Racer on April 4, 2006, at 22:31:28
> Dr Bob, as we know, is a mental health professional, and he writes articles and papers on the subject of Babble. That makes it part of his PROFESSIONAL life, and he can't be paid by the subjects of his research. And The Scarf is payment, according to the tax laws.
Dr. Bob isn't doing research right now. We are not the subjects of research here, right? The scarf is priceless, how can it be considered payment? I don't know tax laws very well.
> I realize you "love" Dr Bob -- but part of loving someone is respecting that person, and that person's boundaries. Do you think you're doing that right now?
I'm just writing about stuff I think about. That's not crossing boundaries right?
> And a word about hugs: Not everyone is OK about hugs, not everyone is OK about being touched.
That's why it's important to ask. I don't plan on hugging Bob without asking. I don't plan on hugging anyone without asking.
> Deneb, can you try to love the scarf you're knitting because *you* are making it? Because it's something that feels good to *you,* without it having to be for someone else? Can you transfer some of that "love" from Dr Bob to yourself?
I can try, but I'm not confident it will work.
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:46:11
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 18:11:13
i think legwarmers is right about the boundary stuff.
> Maybe Dr. Bob doesn't want to encourage my love obsession for him by sending me mixed messages and confusing me?
and i think that is probably right too...
i wouldn't be surprised if there was a blanket 'no gifts' policy in operation here... i think most therapists have those, but that they make exceptions in particular cases (which is taking context into account). but it can be hard to take context into account in a group setting. why? because taking context into account can lead to people thinking there are different standards for different people or something like that.
i wouldn't be surprised if there was a 'no hugs' policy either. boundaries once again.
why boundaries?
because it reduces confusion (provides more stability) and is likely to save hurts in the long run...
> Sorry I forgot to answer special k's question. My Dad and I have never been close. We don't really talk to each other. He shows his love by doing things like drive me places. My Dad was never around when I was little. He had to work all the time. I didn't really feel much for my Dad when I was little. I never really got attached to him.
yeah. so he was kinda absent...
> Could it be that I see Dr. Bob like a father? He protects me from incivility and punishes me when I'm misbehaving. I never really got that from my parents. I rarely felt protected by my parents and they never punished me. My Mom used to ignore me when I was misbehaving. Dr. Bob ignores me too. I think maybe Dr. Bob is old enough to be my father. I don't think that helps. Also, Dr. Bob has a Chinese name, that suggests he comes from a Chinese family. That doesn't help either. LOL Just one more thing that makes him like a father.yeah. quite a lot of similarity once you get thinking on it huh. not so much that he was like your dad (though i guess he is in some respects 'cause he is kinda aloof etc).... but also in that there is that kind of role going on (with the discipline etc). discipline is hard... i tended to throw a tantrum in the face of it... but consistent discipline... i think that is something that people actually need and appreciate (though there is typiclaly a lot of resentment etc in there too... espcially in the face of perceived unfairness / actual unfairness etc).
> Oh dear...LOL
heh heh.
> Special k wrote about some therapists having a no gift policy, but I don't see how that relates to this situation. Dr. Bob is not my therapist. I know the no gift policy has to do with ethics, but what would the reason be for Dr. Bob?well...
transference.
the intense feelings of love...
the intense feelings of love... IS the transference.
the rules on therapists...
are there precisely because of transference...
they are there to help protect the client so the therapist doesn't take advantage of their feelings...
he isnt' your therapist
but there are still feelings of transference
and he is a health professional
so my guess would be that he jolly well *should* be factoring in those kinds of things as therapists do.this is why it does indeed surprise me that dr bob doesn't have some board or something to be accountable to for his conduct...
i mean...
he seems to be doing this off his own bat (and doing well enough don't get me wrong)
but i would still feel a lot happier knowing there was some governing body that he was accountable to...
FWIW
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Racer, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:41:25
enjoy the feelings deneb...
don't get me wrong...but IMO you should be careful to be sensitive about the boundary thing.
why?
because it can hurt when there are boundaries.
yeah it can.
just like it can hurt when there is discipline.
i mean... in your better moments you do understand your blockings eh?
and i think... that while the blockings hurt...
and you rail a bit at them (by the emails etc)
ultimately...
you have all the more respect
(and love)
for him because he does seem to be so very consistent with you.it can hurt...
but really methinks that is why the feelings are there...regarding presents and hugs...
different people have difference transference issues going on...
and some people...
need the consistency to be at arms length.
in fact...
maybe we all do really.otherwise...
confusion
lots of confusion
and ultimately more pain.because sometimes people do get confused...
Posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:56:39
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
and the reason i think i get this...
is because i've ended up in relationships with people i had transference feelings for. and... ultimately they didn't work out. ultimately... i don't think they really can work out into anything healthy.
and in hindsight...
i kinda do think on them as someone taking advantage of me. of my transference feelings.
and sometimes what we think we want...
is not what is good for us
which is just to say
it is not what we actually do wantthough it can take a lot of time to figure it out...
and it is a long painful and incredibly confusing road...and i know that probably seems WAY different to what is going on here and what is going on for you...
but the point is that there was quite a road for things to end up where they ultimately ended up for me (where i was in a relationship with that person)
and that road is something of a slippery slope...and so much better
so much easier
so much better for all concerned in the long runif the boundaries are firm and at arms length
and to respect that deneb
because IMO
those boundaries are what you respect
and those boundaries are what are making you feel safe
and full of love
so enjoy it
but respect the boundariesand IMO
the boundaries show that he does love and respect us
because it can be only too easy to take advantage...
Posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 23:56:26
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional, posted by special_k on April 4, 2006, at 22:51:02
Maybe you are right special k...maybe I do love Dr. Bob *because* of the boundaries and not *despite* the boundaries.
I really don't know how I would react if one day Dr. Bob acted like a friend towards me.
In my mind giving Bob a small hug is not going out of boundaries. What if a small hug is seen as a greeting? Right now I don't even know if I have the guts to actually ask to hug Bob. Maybe I won't even want to hug Bob.
I don't think hugging Bob will confuse me or hurt me in anyway. I know he doesn't love me like I love him. I would be scared if he loved me back.
I just have this fantasy of hugging Dr. Bob. I walk around the streets and I pretend someone is Dr. Bob and I imagine hugging that person. I hug the air in front of me and pretend I'm hugging Dr. Bob. I imagine that hugging Dr. Bob will give me a comfy feeling.
{{{{{{{Dr. Bob}}}}}}}}}
I just love Bob. :-)
Deneb
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 0:09:44
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » special_k, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 23:56:26
> Maybe you are right special k...maybe I do love Dr. Bob *because* of the boundaries and not *despite* the boundaries.
i think so. i really really do. but then i have been known to be wrong ;-)
> I really don't know how I would react if one day Dr. Bob acted like a friend towards me.yeah. you probably wouldn't like it at all. or maybe you would like it for a time. but then you would need him to be a rock and he wouldn't be being a rock he'd be going off about his bad day or something like that and then you would have lost bob the rock :-(
> In my mind giving Bob a small hug is not going out of boundaries.maybe not but if he gave you a hug then he would be setting precedent to give any babbler a hug who wanted one. i mean, if he gave you a hug but didn't hug poster x then poster x would start up 'its not FAIR dr bob doesn't LIKE me' etc etc. black and white rules again...
> What if a small hug is seen as a greeting?
like the scarf could be seen as a small token gift, or as a symbol of your intense affection? a hug could be seen as a greeting or as a sexual advance. for people with history of sexual abuse hugs *can* be confusing deneb.
> I don't think hugging Bob will confuse me or hurt me in anyway.
maybe not. but it could confuse / hurt other posters. confuse / hurt if he hugged them, confuse / hurt if he didn't hug them. damned either way. and hugging one is setting precedent for hugging all (otherwise 'IT ISN'T FAIR!') and hence... more confusion / hurt...
> I just have this fantasy of hugging Dr. Bob. I walk around the streets and I pretend someone is Dr. Bob and I imagine hugging that person. I hug the air in front of me and pretend I'm hugging Dr. Bob. I imagine that hugging Dr. Bob will give me a comfy feeling.ok. well... enjoy the feeling...
but i still think you should be careful about respecting boundaries...
though i do have sympathy with flouting boundaries / rules (sigh)...
i think they are there for good reason...
Posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Racer, posted by Deneb on April 4, 2006, at 22:41:25
> >
> > And a word about hugs: Not everyone is OK about hugs, not everyone is OK about being touched.
>
> That's why it's important to ask. I don't plan on hugging Bob without asking. I don't plan on hugging anyone without asking.
>Because this is a big deal for me, something which has come up for me many times and makes me uncomfortable every time it does, I'm going to say this. Deneb, I'm revealing something personal about myself to you. Respect that.
I am not comfortable with hugs, most of the time. Yes, there are people I do hug, and some people whom I'm comfortable hugging, but that's a bit rare. It makes me very, very uncomfortable to be hugged without my express consent.
AND IT MAKES ME EVEN MORE UNCOMFORTABLE TO BE ASKED BY SOMEONE IF HE/SHE CAN HUG ME!
When someone asks for permission to hug me, I feel trapped between my own need NOT to be hugged when it doesn't feel comfortable, and allowing it so that I don't hurt their feelings. And you know what? Then I resent the person asking, because I feel uncomfortable.
Would you like to know that someone is uncomfortable AND resents you, because you asked for that hug?
I'm done with this. This subject has actually gotten under my skin, maybe because this is such a loaded topic for me, and I think I'd best avoid the rest of this thread.
Peace
Posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 2:40:15
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Deneb, posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
hrm.
yeah lots of issues around this stuff for a lot of peoples methinks...i learned in dbt that it was always okay to ask, so long as one can accept that the answer might be 'no'.
but some things...
i think the trouble with pushing boundaries is that people tend to withdraw a little / put up defenses / remain 'on guard' when they become aware that someone repeatedly encroaches on their boundaries.
i feel a little pissed off when someone encroaches on my boundaries too. especially when it must be apparant to them that i'm not happy about it. hard to know what bob is feeling i guess and that makes it harder... but i guess we just have to go by what he says. i'm thinking here of guys especially... when i think i'm being pretty clear that i'm not interested but they still seem to think they can make an advance or something. i think that if you are aware... you can read how someone is feeling. and if you are making them uncomfortable... if they are awkward... then i guess back off. is kind of polite and respectful. but hard online because there aren't any cues (aside from words).
i used to have a friend who used to tickle me suddenly.
it hurt kinda and i didn't like it too much but i guess 'cause i was laughing...
but i was always alert around her and never could relax...
never could let my guard down.
amusing for her i guess but not so fun for me.
i dunno.
how ya doing deneb?
pretty complicated, huh.
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 11:48:59
In reply to Re: Boundaries -- both personal and professional » Deneb, posted by Racer on April 5, 2006, at 1:31:13
In real life, I never ask anyone for a hug. I don't even like hugs in real life. I don't even know if I will like Bob in real life.
I also don't like it when people hug me. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm not a person for hugging. I don't even know if I want to hug or be hugged at the Babble Party. Real life is very different.
I'm sorry if I made you angry. :-(
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 12:22:28
In reply to Racer, I don't like hugs either, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 11:48:59
I'm sorry.
I feel bad about what I've done. :-(
There will be no hugging going on at the Babble Party.
Thanks Racer, for letting me know just how much some people hate hugs.
I'm sorry I triggered you.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
In reply to I'm sorry I triggered you Racer, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 12:22:28
This is getting complicated.
So far I've learned that hugs can be bad things. Hugging others might make them hate you. How would I know whether hugging someone would make them hate me? :-(
It's too complicated. I can't even ask to be hugged. How will I ever know when it's ok to hug someone if I can't even ask? I think it's okay to say "no" to a hug. I would say no to a hug if it makes me uncomfortable. I would say, "I'm not really into hugs".
Since I can't even ask, that means it's never okay to hug anyone.
I think Racer should tell others that hugging makes her uncomfortable. I bet people would rather she tell them than have her resent them. I think we should all be open and honest about things, instead of hiding things.
Dr. Bob can tell me that hugging makes him uncomfortable. I won't feel bad if he said that. Why is it socially unacceptable to say things like that? I don't get it.
When I ask people something, I expect them to tell me the truth. Is it really that difficult to say, "Hugging makes me uncomfortable"?
I expect Dr. Bob to tell me if he doesn't want to be hugged. That's it, I'm going to ask and he's going to tell me. That's the best way to handle things. I won't be upset if he doesn't want to hug me. People should tell the truth about these things. I would tell the truth. I would very much appreciate it if someone were to ask my permission for a hug instead of just hugging me. At times spontaneous hugging has made me a little uncomfortable. If they had asked me, I would have said, "I'm not really into hugging."
I never resent people for hugging me. I don't do that. That's just who I am.
It's safe to ask to hug me. I shouldn't be made to feel bad about asking to hug someone. Hugging is supposed to make people feel good. If one doesn't feel good about it, one should say that. The hugger doesn't want to make the "huggee" feel bad.
That's it, I'm going to ask for a hug from Dr. Bob. I expect him to tell me if he's uncomfortable with it. I expect people to be open and honest about what they feel. If someone feels angry with me, I want them to tell me that instead of resenting me behind my back. I like being direct.
Deneb*
Posted by gardenergirl on April 5, 2006, at 13:56:23
In reply to It should be ok to ask to hug, posted by Deneb on April 5, 2006, at 13:24:29
> >
> It's safe to ask to hug me. I shouldn't be made to feel bad about asking to hug someone. Hugging is supposed to make people feel good. If one doesn't feel good about it, one should say that. The hugger doesn't want to make the "huggee" feel bad.
>In the spirit of being direct...I just have to point out that the other person cannot "make you feel bad" just because they might react to something you do in a negative way. Feeling bad about it is something that begins within you. If you were entirely indifferent to the others' feelings, you wouldn't feel bad if they reacted negatively. Or, your own empathy about how the other person now feels may lead you to feel bad for your perceived role in it. But that comes from within you in reaction to what happened.
For examople, my FIL gets very angry when someone comments on his memory. But when a mistake comes up and needs to be clarified or corrected (say, he forgot what time an appt. was), are we really "bad" for dealing with the problem since he got mad? Yes, he gets mad about it, but that is his reaction. Our behavior did not cause it. We didn't "make him feel" mad. It comes from how he interprets the incident and what is said, how he feels internally about it, and anything else in his psyche related to how he might process such an incident. Does that make sense?
I guess in some ways this relates because it's about emotional boundaries. I'm still working on this myself, but being able to separate out our actions and reactions to others from their actions and reactions is a healthy boundary and goes a long way to feeling balanced about emotions.
Another example is one I discovered recently about my feelings for my FIL. I am very angry with him about certain behaviors I have. I found I was intensely angry, and in thinking about it, I realized that some of that anger really is about my own father and stuff from the past. That part of the anger is my responsibility to manage separate from my anger towards my FIL. Being able to start separating that out has helped me figure out what my real reaction to my FIL's behavior versus what has been heightened by stuff from within myself. It's helped me feel more balanced in my feelings towards him. And it's helped me feel more in control of those feelings. So in figuring out what's mine and what's his and what's current and what's past, I've been able to "re-set" the emotional boundary to a more balanced and realistic place.
I'm just babbling now. But I'm really big on (probably because I still need to work on it) taking responsibility and "owning" your own feelings versus placing the origin of them on someone else. When I center the origin of my feelings on oters actions, that leaves me feeling more helpless about my emotions and like I'm twisting in the wind about how others may or do react. I don't like that feeling.
As far as asking for hugs...you're right in that you can ask and be answered. But physical contact is a more personal intimacy than what the usual custom is in many cultures. I think that the usual social norm in my life is that a hug or other physical show of affection comes with a certain stage of a relationship development beyond the intial stages. Of course, the internet makes forming and developing relationships a bit different, in that you often can become close to someone without ever meeting them in person. But it can also foster a false sense of closeness (or distance, I suppose), since the in-person and non-verbal aspect of someone is not present. I guess I'm saying that there needs to be a mutual level of development of the social relationship, ideally, for the asking and answering to feel comfortable and appropriate for both. And your right to set your own boundaries ends where another's begins, in my opinion. Yours can only get as close as the other person's boundaries allows. Certainly you can try to encroach, but if you think of that in a physical sense, it could feel quite threatening, uncomfortable, intrusive, etc. to the other person. Sort of like if you keep mowing your grass more and more into the other person's yard. They may be fine with a few inches, but if it gets to a foot or more, or right up to their doorstep, I think they might not be so fine.
I don't have a magic formula for how to identify when a relationship has moved beyond a social acquaintance phase. I suppose someone's figured out actual "markers" for this in some study, but usually it's more of just knowing. I've been wrong before, and I've felt awkward about it afterwards.
It sure is complicated. I agree. I guess I am writing all this in order to encourage you to think more about where your boundaries and Dr. Bob's boundaries are and how you best can manage them. How far into his yard do you think is okay to mow, metaphorically? What are the potential consequences of mowing further than is the "norm"?
gg
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