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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
hi all,
I'm sorry I won't be able to attend the Babble party in Chicago. It would be cool to meet you all. Hopefully I can do the one next year!I hope you all who go have a fantastic time. I'm jealous!
JenStar
Posted by Damos on June 1, 2005, at 17:07:16
In reply to Have fun in Chicago, travelling Babblers!, posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
Yeah, have a safe trip everyone. Sorry can't be there either, have a great time.
Posted by sleepygirl on June 1, 2005, at 19:17:56
In reply to Have fun in Chicago, travelling Babblers!, posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
Have fun in the windy city!
Posted by Dinah on June 2, 2005, at 1:08:05
In reply to Have fun in Chicago, travelling Babblers!, posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
can't make it. :(
It'd be even better with you all there.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 2, 2005, at 1:32:22
In reply to Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » JenStar, posted by Dinah on June 2, 2005, at 1:08:05
Have fun! But if it's awesome don't tell me for a while kay..
Aww, just kidding. You deserve to have an awesome time.
xoxooxoxo
Posted by Jai Narayan on June 2, 2005, at 8:53:48
In reply to Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » JenStar, posted by Dinah on June 2, 2005, at 1:08:05
I would love this party filled with special people.
I hope we get pictures...is there a list of who is going somewhere?
Jai
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 8:55:26
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by Jai Narayan on June 2, 2005, at 8:53:48
Yes, can we get pictures? And a list of who's there too. I haven't been keeping up with what's going to be happening in Chicago. Sigh.
Posted by partlycloudy on June 2, 2005, at 10:28:25
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by Jai Narayan on June 2, 2005, at 8:53:48
Dinah has been keepping unofficial tabs on the latest count. It's on the top most thread on Admin.
pc
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 11:20:46
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 8:55:26
am I a party pooper? I feel weird about my pic floating around :-( Maybe Dr Bob could do something with a secure website.
Oh and this is the latest count I think.... http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050530/msgs/505502.html
paranoid rain :-)
Posted by JenStar on June 2, 2005, at 11:37:00
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 11:20:46
Maybe we could set up a secure server. Those who actually attended the party could view pictures unimpeded. Other babblers who wanted to see them would have to post their own personal picture first?
I'd love to see pics too, but I'm willing to share mine to "be fair." You'll be surprised at my much I look like Julia Roberts' identical twin, hahaha!
I know what you're saying about being leery about sharing personal photos. Maybe we'll have to forego photos & just imagine all those happy smiling partying babble faces...
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 14:00:38
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 11:20:46
I'm dying to see what Toph looks like, he's described himself you know, I'm so so curious, but then I kind of like not knowing, too, you know? So yeah you're a party pooper but I understand not wanting your pic on here, I sure wouldn't want it. I don't do photos well at all. Yuch.
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 14:02:49
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » rainbowbrite, posted by JenStar on June 2, 2005, at 11:37:00
picks up on the picture and your name and bang, then you're forever id'd this way. I think that could haunt me, even if I think it's a good decision now, six months from now it could be seen in a very different light, you know, at a new level of awareness, I could be going, "Oh shoot that was stupid, really really dumb" or something.
Posted by Deneb on June 2, 2005, at 14:03:07
In reply to Have fun in Chicago, travelling Babblers!, posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
Have a grand adventure!
I'll see some of you hopefully next year!Deneb
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 2, 2005, at 14:17:47
In reply to Have fun in Chicago, travelling Babblers!, posted by JenStar on June 1, 2005, at 17:04:32
Dr. Bob? He doesn't mind his picture being on here. And what it you took pictures of the backs of your heads? I know that sounds crazy, but that way your face isn't plastered all over the internet.
MB
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 15:32:23
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » rainbowbrite, posted by JenStar on June 2, 2005, at 11:37:00
Thats a good idea! I was just imaging the photos being emailed all over eeek!
Party pooper paranoid rain
Posted by gardenergirl on June 2, 2005, at 16:33:15
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » JenStar, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 15:32:23
I'm planning to bring a camera. I am sure we can come up with something creative to get pictures out without blowing privacy. Maybe we can all get silly masks or something. Paper bags also work, as long as we cut out holes to see and breathe! :)
Or maybe just pictures of all of our feet?
gg
Posted by jay on June 2, 2005, at 18:03:15
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by gardenergirl on June 2, 2005, at 16:33:15
So, yes it is great you are having this gathering in Chicago, and I wish everybody the best. But, here is one reason this Canadian can't attend.
I will try to be very civil. But, this is a tough one. Thanks to the &%$#$^& American Government (not the people) , us non-U.S. citizens who have a mental illness can and likely will be denied entry to the U.S., but treated as a criminal if they do make it. This is especially true for those who fly, because you will have to show them (U.S. Customs) your prescriptions. And once they put 2 and 2 together...bango...denied entry. Last year a group of Canadians who both worked in mental health, and where 'consumers' (i.e. patients) where booted back home by U.S. Customs. Within the past few years, I know of atleast a dozen people who where denied entry because of a 'mental illness', (from my local mental illness support groups.) as they where just being good people and answered 'yes' that they had a mental illness (which U.S. Customs can and does ask) So what is the answer??? Lie?? I think if that happens and are found out, we'd be blindfolded and sent to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba faster then you can say 'Patriot Act'.
So, here is just one story from the Toronto Star on the NAMI site...it's a bit old but explains what we have to deal with.
Mental illness barrier to border-crossing
from:http://www.namiscc.org/Advocacy/2002/Travel.htm
Fingerprints, hefty fees required for Toronto man with disorder to visit U.S.
Scott Simmie Toronto Star FEATURE WRITER June 1, 2002Mel Starkman doesn't want to get fingerprinted by the FBI.
He wants even less to pay for the privilege.
But that's one of several requirements the former University of Toronto archivist must fulfill if he wants to travel to the United States — even for a short visit.
"I'd have to see a new shrink, get fingerprinted by the Mounties and the FBI, fill in forms and send the fees necessary for all the paperwork — which I can't afford," he says with disbelief.
Mel Starkman is not a criminal. Nor is he a terrorist.
The potential problem, at least in the eyes of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), is that Starkman has been diagnosed with a major mental illness. As a result, he's expected to fulfill a number of bureaucratic requirements he and others are calling discriminatory.
"It's a human right to travel. And this is an infringement on my rights," he says. "I'm a decent, law-abiding citizen who will admit to having had problems in living... Does that make me a second-class citizen?"
Sure makes him feel like one, he says.
Just over two weeks ago, Starkman was selected to attend a supportive housing conference in New York City June 13-14. He was chosen because the 61-year-old is a valued volunteer on the Edmond Yu Safe House Project, which plans to eventually build transitional housing for homeless people with serious mental health issues. The organization is named after the 35-year-old homeless schizophrenic shot dead by Toronto police in 1997 after a confrontation on a bus.
Starkman was excited at both the prospect of learning about new housing models, and the opportunity to take a trip. His expenses were going to be paid, and travel is a luxury he simply can't afford on his total annual income of roughly $8,000.
"Not since 1981 have I been on a trip. And I haven't been to New York since 1973," he says.
But someone with the project thought there might be problems at the border. Calls were placed to the U.S. consulate in Toronto and the INS in Buffalo. Were there any restrictions, they asked, for people diagnosed with a serious mental illness?
"Technically speaking, you have to have a waiver to go across in a circumstance like that," explains Rob Callard, chief of the non-immigrant visa section at the U.S consulate in Toronto.
The policy has been in place for decades, and it means Starkman, diagnosed with schizo-affective disorder, would have to apply for pre-approval if he wanted to visit the country legally.
Charmaine Frado, the project's development co-ordinator, was stunned at the double-standard.
"Any other person in the country could just get on a plane and go to the United States," she says. "But anybody with a psychiatric history runs the risk of being caught at the border and not allowed in."
The waiver requires applicants to be assessed by a new psychiatrist named by the U.S. government. A hopeful visitor must agree to full release of their psychiatric history to American authorities. It means getting fingerprinted by the FBI and the RCMP. It means paying non-refundable fees totalling nearly $350 (U.S.) And it means waiting up to five months for an answer.
"In my experience, most of those folks that have that kind of disability get through on a waiver," says Callard. "There are a few who haven't... If you're going to attack the passenger next to you with an ice pick, they (INS) need to know it," he says.
Although Callard was being semi-facetious, that assumption is the underlying reason for the rule: a widespread perception that people with a diagnosis of a serious psychiatric disorder are more dangerous than the general population.
While headlines on some high-profile cases may make that appear to be the case, scientists and advocates say the data does not support such broad assumptions.
Even Rob Callard says any potential relationship is "miniscule," and acknowledges the rule is an affront to some.
"It (the rule) casts a wider net so you can catch the people you really want to catch. And it always offends the people who shouldn't have to be caught by the net."
A major U.S. organization that specializes in mental health law was stunned to hear that this particular net exists at all.
"It seems to me that it would be an impossible case to make, that it would be appropriate to screen out people with mental illness," said Ira Burnim, legal director of the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law in Washington.
Burnim says if the goal is to screen potentially violent persons, border officials would fare better examining other criteria.
"If you're looking for people who have high crime rates — poor, urban, unemployed young males is probably a good category. You're going to get a lot more bang for your buck than you would for mental illness," he says.
Canada also refuses entry to some travelers who have a mental illness, but it only happens "from time to time," says Susan Scarlett, spokesperson for Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
In 1999, four delegates from Moscow who hoped to attend a Toronto conference on rehabilitation said they were denied visas because they had a psychiatric diagnosis. Scarlett, however, says people are never refused solely on that basis.
"If the person is stable, if they're balanced, if they're not presenting in a way that would cause concern to us, then that (diagnosis) should not be a barrier to them being able to come and visit Canada," she says.
Although she could not provide a number, Scarlett says there are "a handful of cases" that generally occur at such major points of entry as Toronto and Vancouver. Sometimes, people are turned away because they are actively psychotic.
For Canadians with mental illness — and their families — travelling south can be a harrowing experience.
Schizophrenia Society of Canada president Tony Cerenzia calls the U.S. regulation "a travesty."
He's speaking from personal experience.
"I have a son who's ill with schizophrenia, and I have another son who lives in Washington. And when we take one son down to visit his brother, we just tremble at the border. We have not been stopped, but my wife is riddled with anxiety until everything goes smoothly," he says.
In fact, the Canadian Mental Health Association says many people with mental illness fear traveling to the United States. Barbara Everett, CEO of the Ontario Division, says the organization routinely issues this advice to members travelling to conferences: Reveal nothing of your psychiatric history.
"What we do here is brief them: pack your meds in your bags that are checked, and shut up. Never identify yourself as a consumer," she advises.
"I can't imagine the interrogation you're going to get. It's better to lie."
Mel Starkman considered, briefly, doing just that. Simply showing up at the airport, tucking his pills away in his suitcase, hoping no one asked.
The prospect, however, frightened him.
Now, he says, there's just no point in applying — on grounds of both principle and logic.
Even if he could afford the fees, his approval — or refusal — could take until late October to be processed. Months after the conference he so wanted to attend.
Source: TheStar.Com
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 18:24:34
In reply to A rant from a Canadian to America...re: Chicago, posted by jay on June 2, 2005, at 18:03:15
just curious...have you ever been to the US? I have never ever heard of something like this :-0 I dont have time to read the article now, but wow thats scary if this is really going on. I'm thinking it was just isolated cases.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2005, at 18:47:23
In reply to Re: A rant from a Canadian to America...re: Chicago, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 18:24:34
> just curious...have you ever been to the US? I have never ever heard of something like this :-0 I dont have time to read the article now, but wow thats scary if this is really going on. I'm thinking it was just isolated cases.
Okay, I'll tell you a story about crossing into the U.S.
I drive truck (or did, until I broke my arm 17 months ago). Anyways, I was entering at Detroit, and I was presenting my import documents to the Customs and Immigration officer, and he asks for my identification. I hand him my driver's license, and his face goes quite serious. His hand goes to the handle of his pistol, and he tells me to pull up my shirt. A little stunned, I say "Huh?", and he tells me louder, to pull up my shirt. As if on cue, four other officers move into a semi-circle around me. I still don't know what I'm being asked to do, when the guy asks me to show him "my ink". He wants to see my "tatts". Well, I don't have any (and it took me a minute to figure out what he wanted), and as I'm sputtering in shock, one of the other guys just about pulls my shirt up over my head.
Turns out there's some Chicago gangster named Larry Hoover, and this guy is telling me I exactly meet the description of this dude, a cop killer (with a reward for apprehension).
They run my ID in the computer, though, and it checks out, so they end up letting me go.
I go home later, and hit Google, and there *is* such a guy. Only thing is, he's black (I'm a redhead). And he's in Joliet State Prison (near Chicago).
I've been crossing the border for over twenty years, hundreds of times, and never had a problem before.
The very next time I enter at Detroit, another guy starts doing this "alert" thing. I calmly tell the guy that I checked it out on Google, and it's a black man by that name......Wrong! It is not proper to correct a man with a gun. Off I go to a little room with 2-way mirrors, to sit and stew for a couple of hours, after they strip-searched me and left with my ID.
When the guy came back to let me go, all he said was, "Don't go anywhere, ever, without your photo ID. Not to the motel pool, nowhere."
Now, what do you think that was all about? I haven't tried to get on a plane since then. I'm afraid to.
Lar
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 19:09:36
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it » JenStar, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 15:32:23
Get one of those police shots, with the dark in front, and you-all just silhouetted in blue back-lighting.
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 19:10:53
In reply to Re: Another rant from a Canadian » rainbowbrite, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2005, at 18:47:23
That sounds awful!! I have had a couple odd experiences going back and forth to differnet countries but I just assume I was lucky # ??? on their list to interogate.
But WOW that would really suck having the problem with the name. And scary is an understatement.
I guess my take on the US/Canda border thingy is that (I know nothing and claim to know nothing btw) millions of people go through all day and get through.... but mental illness restrictions sounds harsh....I dont know??
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 19:12:16
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 19:09:36
OK will do!! Actually i like gg's suggestion...feet...oh actually maybe Ill expose both my legs ;-) and feet!
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 19:15:16
In reply to Re: Another rant from a Canadian » Larry Hoover, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 19:10:53
Actually Larry I dont know what Im talking about, I have no true knowledge about that stuff...but I will say that I know border expereices are scary if they dont go over smoothly :-0 in any country you are in.
Posted by TamaraJ on June 2, 2005, at 19:16:32
In reply to Re: Thank you! I'm sorry you guys who can't make it, posted by gardenergirl on June 2, 2005, at 16:33:15
Paper bags also work, as long as we cut out holes to see and breathe! :)
>
LOL, kinda like the "Unknown Comic", but instead you all will be "The Unknown Babblers" :-)
Posted by Phil on June 2, 2005, at 19:23:11
In reply to Re: Another rant from a Canadian » rainbowbrite, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2005, at 18:47:23
Someone remind me why I live in this country.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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