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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 6 to 30 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:40
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 9:00:46
Scott I hear you on the overuse of the word "issues". I was actually trying to think of a better way to word this but I was being lazy.
I never said all people when I talk about psychological/subconscious contributors. And you use the term "psychological mess", which makes me feel like you are on the defensive, and you are. But it is an extreme term that I wouldn't use, just like calling people with mental disorders crazy. In your previous post you said something about people just needing to "get their sh*t together". Again, you seem to be on the defensive and I believe you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I guess what I am getting at is that I feel like you are having a difficult time being objective and open to some of my beliefs. You talk about the possibility that some of my beliefs may be a reflection of what is going on with me. I believe it's possible that you are reacting to me the way you do because of your own experience and where you stand as far as the causes of your depression. Again, I am not talking about all people suffering from depression when I express my beliefs.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:41
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 9:00:46
>You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
Scott, I don't claim to know you, nor do I claim to know that you have "issues" you need to work on. I should have made myself clear that what I said was meant for you and others, but I did not intend for the content of what I said to be interpreted as applying to you. That said, I am of the belief that we could all benefit from therapy and we could all improve on some aspects of ourselves that would improve our lives. There are some mental health professionals and, believe it or not, some people in the general population(I know a few personally)believe that most people did not get everything they needed in there childhood and most people would benefit from a little therapy. I remember several years ago listening to a radio show in which a doctor from John's Hopkins University said that it has been part of the human condition that parents simply have fallen short when nurturing their children the way they needed to be. I also find it interesting that so many people put their parents on a pedestal and truly believe they did nothing wrong and did not at all contribute to having struggles in life. This is even the case with people that were verbally and physically abused. I think it is more common that people deny that they have any psychological problems that are a result of what their parents did or did not do.If you go over to the psychology board of psycho-babble you will see a response to my thread by sigismund. I am not the only one who holds these beliefs.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:41
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 11:50:33
> I never said all people when I talk about psychological/subconscious contributors.
Ok.
> You talk about the possibility that some of my beliefs may be a reflection of what is going on with me.
> I believe it's possible that you are reacting to me the way you do because of your own experience and where you stand as far as the causes of your depression.
Precisely.
> Again, I am not talking about all people suffering from depression when I express my beliefs.
So, are we ready to agree that some people who are depressed do not have a psychopathology that precipitates and perpetuates their depression?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:42
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 12:30:09
> If you go over to the psychology board of psycho-babble you will see a response to my thread by sigismund. I am not the only one who holds these beliefs.
I am unclear as to which of my beliefs you feel conflict with yours.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:42
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:06:31
> > I never said all people when I talk about psychological/subconscious contributors.
>
> Ok.
>
> > You talk about the possibility that some of my beliefs may be a reflection of what is going on with me.
>
> > I believe it's possible that you are reacting to me the way you do because of your own experience and where you stand as far as the causes of your depression.
>
> Precisely.
>
> > Again, I am not talking about all people suffering from depression when I express my beliefs.
>
> So, are we ready to agree that some people who are depressed do not have a psychopathology that precipitates and perpetuates their depression?
>
>
> - ScottI still think that the majority of those that struggle with depression or other mental illness had something in their past-recent, early development, or adolescence-that contributed to the development of their mental illness. This belief comes form taking several psychology courses, discussions with psychology professors, discussions with therapists that have Ph.D.'s in clinical psychology, discussions with psychiatrists, discussions with friends, and personal observations. That said, I do think there are those few cases where depression or some other mental illness is mostly a result of a genetic predisposition.
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:43
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:25:05
> > If you go over to the psychology board of psycho-babble you will see a response to my thread by sigismund. I am not the only one who holds these beliefs.
>
> I am unclear as to which of my beliefs you feel conflict with yours.This might help:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030728/msgs/246714.html
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:43
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 14:32:09
> I still think that the majority of those that struggle with depression or other mental illness had something in their past-recent, early development, or adolescence-that contributed to the development of their mental illness.
This may be true of depression, but I would be interested to see some scientific investigation into the statistics that would lead you to conclude that it be a majority.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:44
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:46:27
> > I still think that the majority of those that struggle with depression or other mental illness had something in their past-recent, early development, or adolescence-that contributed to the development of their mental illness.
>
> This may be true of depression, but I would be interested to see some scientific investigation into the statistics that would lead you to conclude that it be a majority.
>
>
> - ScottI agree. I would also like to see some thorough studies done in this area.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:44
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:46:27
> > I still think that the majority of those that struggle with depression or other mental illness had something in their past-recent, early development, or adolescence-that contributed to the development of their mental illness.
>
> This may be true of depression, but I would be interested to see some scientific investigation into the statistics that would lead you to conclude that it be a majority.
>
>
> - ScottI agree. I would also like to see some thorough studies done in this area.
We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:45
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 15:04:53
> We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.
My guess is that it will be very difficult to find people who were free of psychosocial stress during their development.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:45
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 14:38:56
Just read your post in that link, it's a good one. I believe that many of mental illness do result from a genetic predisposition to some sort of brain disorder. Still, I believe that in most cases, this genetic predisposition develops to be something that is so crippling and disruptive because of the lack of nurture or the presence of stress/trauma in early development and adolescence. This is even the case with illnesses such as schizophrenia, where it may not have developed in the predisposed had there not been a trigger or triggers to set it in motion.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:46
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 15:16:54
> > We could do our own little poll/study on psycho-babble. Maybe ask people here what their childhood was like and if they believe it contributed to their struggles. Of course people would have to be willing to be completely open and honest and in tuned with the full reality and complexity of what went on in early development and adolescence.
>
> My guess is that it will be very difficult to find people who were free of psychosocial stress during their development.
>
>
> - ScottThis is my thinking as well. A major reason why I believe psychological stress and lack of proper nurture to be such a significant contributor to mental illness-for those that are more predisposed and those that are not.
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:46
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 16:40:55
I had a messed up childhood and no doubt that contributed to making me the way I was -- moody, irritable, prone to addiction, a workaholic.
But I got whacked by a biological depression at the age of 52 and I think it had little or anything to do with my personality issues. I was severely depressed and the depression had no content -- no worrying over things that might have been or crying about issues. I just couldn't get out of bed and thought about suicide, dreamed about suicide, planned to suicide. I took parnate and, within days, I was normal again. Not perfect and not without issues, but not depressed anymore.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:47
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by emmanuel98 on April 23, 2010, at 18:39:10
> I had a messed up childhood and no doubt that contributed to making me the way I was -- moody, irritable, prone to addiction, a workaholic.
>
> But I got whacked by a biological depression at the age of 52 and I think it had little or anything to do with my personality issues. I was severely depressed and the depression had no content -- no worrying over things that might have been or crying about issues. I just couldn't get out of bed and thought about suicide, dreamed about suicide, planned to suicide. I took parnate and, within days, I was normal again. Not perfect and not without issues, but not depressed anymore.You don't think it's possible that your past left your psyche and biology in a state that was more vulnerable to this bout of depression?
Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:47
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 18:50:55
I just have to look at my family history, past and present, to pretty much feel sure it's all genetic.
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 18:50:55
Not really. I got through 52 years without being severely depressed and I had just gotten through 3 years of therapy to deal with my "issues" when I got depressed. Have you ever read Peter Kramer -- Listening to Prozac? He thinks early trauma may make people susceptible to depression, but only if they have the short allele of a particular gene. I think there is a subtle interplay of biology and psychology, but that some people just get depressed.
I guess where I would agree with you is with people who are not severely depressed, but suffer from, what I might call, depressive personality disorder. They are negative, pessimistic and tend to have bouts of moderate depression all their lives. This may be more about childhood traumas and inadequacies than about biology.
>
> You don't think it's possible that your past left your psyche and biology in a state that was more vulnerable to this bout of depression?
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 19:37:23
> I just have to look at my family history, past and present, to pretty much feel sure it's all genetic.
I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood. Do you remember everything that was going on when you were 2, 3, and 4 years old? Was your mom always able to be intimate with you? Did your mom ever suffer from depression or carry anxiety and stress during your crucial years of development? How would you even know if she had issues with connecting with you when you were too young to be able to remember? Did your parents always love you completely and utterly unconditionally without any expectations for you to be someone that they thought you should be? Did your parents ever fight? Did you ever feel like one of your siblings was better than you? Was your mother and father equally involved in your life always showing interest in you? Was your childhood completely free of criticism? Were your parents unreasonably strict? Did your parents spank you? Did your parents do everything in their power to ensure that you loved yourself unconditionally? Did your parents do everything in their power to ensure that you did not suffer from self esteem issues?(I know, basically the same question as before). Did your parents always compliment you when you did something good? Did your parents ever do anything to make you feel like they loved one of your siblings more than you?
My point here is that we now know parenting to be a very difficult very complicated job. Children are extremely fragile and delicate and need a whole lot of the right kind of nurturing in order to develop properly. And, some children need even more care and attention than others-or different care and attention.
Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:49
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 20:49:47
I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood.
Ummm, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion from my very short sentence that I had a perfect childhood. Of course I didn't, who has? How does one determine a perfect childhood?
My family history is riddled with anxiety and depressive disorders. I know in my bones it's genetic.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:49
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 21:30:57
> I'm sorry if this pisses you off, but I seriously doubt you had a perfect childhood.
>
> Ummm, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion from my very short sentence that I had a perfect childhood. Of course I didn't, who has? How does one determine a perfect childhood?
>
> My family history is riddled with anxiety and depressive disorders. I know in my bones it's genetic.
>
>
>I'm sorry for coming off the way I did in my last message. I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.
Think about this, if your parents were never treated for their struggles with anxiety and depression, don't you think it's possible that they were not equipped to give you what you needed, which in turn resulted in you struggling more with your predisposition than you would have? If your mother is experiencing anxiety and depression when you are very young, you are absorbing her negative energy like a sponge soaks up water, ultimately affecting your psychological development.
I just think you might be oversimplifying things as many do. It's easier to accept things this way. Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed. Then there is no reason to go to therapy and do all the hard work necessary to deal with what lingers inside you. Then you can just accept that the cure is in medication and medication will fix your flawed biology.
Posted by Bob on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:50
In reply to Re: nothing helps » Linda Bee, posted by SLS on April 21, 2010, at 16:10:58
> > sorry to sound so pessimistic;
>
> Who could blame you? You are among friends here who have had experiences similar to yours. I have begun to resign myself to living in a depressed state indefinitely. Nothing helps.
>
> It looks as if your doctor is competent based upon the drugs he has selected for you. I had success combining MAOI drugs with TCA drugs twenty years ago. I no longer respond adequately to this treatment. Unfortunately, it is as good as it gets for me. Still, it makes sense to continue trying different treatments as they become available.
>
>
> - Scott
Man. I know it may very well be the case for many of us, but it is difficult to hear. In all your years of treatment Scott, have you ever tried ECT? I don't think I've ever heard you mention it.
Posted by Justherself54 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:50
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 22:16:26
>>Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed.
The only anger, pain and sadness I carry it due to the fact I have treatment resistance bipolar depression. I hold no anger, pain or sadness towards my parents for the bumps and bruises along the road of my life..they did the best they could with what they had at the time. That's life.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by Justherself54 on April 23, 2010, at 23:39:28
> >>Then there is no reason to face the past and the possible anger, pain, and sadness you carry deep withing as a result of not getting what you needed.
>
> The only anger, pain and sadness I carry it due to the fact I have treatment resistance bipolar depression. I hold no anger, pain or sadness towards my parents for the bumps and bruises along the road of my life..they did the best they could with what they had at the time. That's life.This is true, that is life. This way of looking at things is viewed by many to also be a major coping mechanism.
I'm not directly consciously angry with my parents either, but subconsciously, I know the anger lurked for many years. Your view is a safe and conservative one. It reminds me of the view that all parents love their children-unfortunately, this is not true. This is a conservative belief. Who wants to think that a parent, or even worse, your(I mean this generally, not speaking of you) parent did not truly love their child. These are the intangible things that I believe we as a society have a difficult time with.
Just like most of us did not get what we needed in our childhood, most of us carry anger in our subconscious minds as a result. It is one of the most difficult things to face this anger and realize how much of a driving force it has been in our lives. You don't have to be an angry person to carry this anger and have it affect your life in a negative way. Some people are addicted to sex as a way of dealing with their anger. Some people act out in crazy ways as a result of their anger. I would even argue that anger could be one of several contributing factors to developing a more severe case of bipolar than may have developed without the anger.
You can never underestimate the subconscious mind. Never.
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 24, 2010, at 0:28:07
I apologize if I am coming off as arrogant and opinionated. I am simply very passionate about what I believe in and can get a bit carried away in expressing those beliefs.
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by Bob on April 23, 2010, at 22:34:11
Hi Bob.
> Man. I know it may very well be the case for many of us, but it is difficult to hear. In all your years of treatment Scott, have you ever tried ECT? I don't think I've ever heard you mention it.
I had one course of ECT in 1991. I underwent 15 treatments. I experienced a mild improvement after the fifth treatment that lasted for a fraction of a day. Thereafter, nothing. The first six or seven treatments were unilateral left. The remainder were bilateral. I don't know what the dosage was. In a correspondence with Max Fink, he suggested that more recent protocols are more effective. Still, I am reluctant to do it again. I didn't like the way I was cognitively altered after the bilateral treatments. I know that high-dosage unilateral right is supposed to be almost as effective as bilateral or bitemporal, but with much reduced cognitive side effects.
I have not tried rTMS. I would if it were available locally and affordable. Early on, Mark George did not think it would be helpful in a case like mine. I'm not sure if his opinion has changed over the last decade. They have fine-tuned the treatment since then.
I appreciate your concern.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 24, 2010, at 1:14:34
> I apologize if I am coming off as arrogant and opinionated. I am simply very passionate about what I believe in and can get a bit carried away in expressing those beliefs.
Me too!
Yes. Everyone has been exposed to psychosocial stress during their lifetimes.
I agree with you in that many, if not most, cases of depression are the result of an interaction between genetics and epigenetics, including stressful experiences. It occurs to me, though, that you will always find what you are looking for if perfection is the standard by which you compare all other experiences. Stress is a phenomenon that occurs with all forms of life. It is a state of challenge to homeostasis. It is probably necessary for psychological growth and improvement in man. An abnormal reaction (mental illness) to normal stress is pathology. How do you define pathological stress? I don't know. The line delineating normal and abnormal is probably fuzzy and somewhat arbitrary. However, it becomes easy to recognize as one moves away from that line. I have a problem with pronouncing every childhood as being riddled with pathological experience. Perhaps this is not your intent. So, the question becomes, has there ever been a childhood that you would deem normal and not a substrate for depression? Has not evolution built into the majority of us coping mechanisms - both physiological and psychobiological - to deal with the normal stresses of childhood?
I have bipolar disorder because I have a genetic vulnerability and I once stubbed my toes as a toddler. Sounds ridiculous, I know.
Abnormal reaction to normal stress?
Normal reaction to abnormal stress?
I guess it depends upon what you are looking for.
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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