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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 20:20:12
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 19:23:45
Hi Deneb,
> I've been in the psych ward of the hospital for 72 hours involuntarily. I've never been in a psych hospital.
I've been in both a psych ward of a general hospital and in a psychiatric hospital. It was for a lot longer than 72 hours. A lot longer (but everyone is posting that they were in for only a few days so I'm feeling embarassed to admit how long I was hospitalized for)
> I was overwhelmed with school. I couldn't face taking my midterms. I OD'd on aspirin to try to get a note out of my midterms. I went to the school walk-in clinic to get a note.I hope you know now that they would have given you a note if you had explained how you were feeling. You didn't have to OD to get the note.
>The nurses mostly ignored my numerous requests for information on how to get out of the hospital. I was demanding to see the Mental Health Act and stuff like that.It doesn't sound like you are upset that they ignored your requests. Had someone explained to you that they were only going to hold you for 72 hours and then you'd get out? Did you not understand and they refused to explain or were you just angry and asking an already answered question over and over again to bother them?
>They were nice to me though.I'm very very glad they were nice to you. You were very distressed and needed people to be kind to you.
Posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 20:52:13
In reply to Re: involuntary--harmful---many, many years ago, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:58:59
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
In reply to Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( (nm) » toojane, posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 20:52:13
I'm sorry the memories are still so painful even after many many years, Zenhussy. I hope this thread hasn't been too triggering for you.
That old adage "time heals all wounds" is a load of cr*p, isn't it?
Posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 22:07:53
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Deneb, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 20:20:12
> I've been in both a psych ward of a general hospital and in a psychiatric hospital. It was for a lot longer than 72 hours. A lot longer (but everyone is posting that they were in for only a few days so I'm feeling embarassed to admit how long I was hospitalized for)
Don't be embarrassed, it wasn't your fault. They probably needed to keep you safe. I'm glad you're here today.
> > I was overwhelmed with school. I couldn't face taking my midterms. I OD'd on aspirin to try to get a note out of my midterms. I went to the school walk-in clinic to get a note.
>
> I hope you know now that they would have given you a note if you had explained how you were feeling. You didn't have to OD to get the note.It was a stupid thing to do. I ended up dropping all my classes. This year I did get a note before I OD'd, but my note wasn't accepted. I took more than the recommended dose of aspirin again a few days ago. I went to the ER, but I was OK this time. This time I was free to leave.
> >The nurses mostly ignored my numerous requests for information on how to get out of the hospital. I was demanding to see the Mental Health Act and stuff like that.
>
> It doesn't sound like you are upset that they ignored your requests. Had someone explained to you that they were only going to hold you for 72 hours and then you'd get out? Did you not understand and they refused to explain or were you just angry and asking an already answered question over and over again to bother them?Yes they explained to me that there was no way out of the 72 hour hold, but I kept asking anyways. I was hoping for a loophole.
Deneb*
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 22:24:20
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 22:07:53
> They probably needed to keep you safe.
They kept me alive but they most definitely did not keep me safe.
>I'm glad you're here today.That's kind of you to say. I'm not glad.
> I was hoping for a loophole.That ever elusive loophole. I keep looking for it too.
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 1:28:10
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( » zenhussy, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
I'm also struggling to write about this. It's funny, I thought I had come to terms with it. I have been hospitalised three times. Once at age 16 for a couple of months for ECT in a private clinic, then three months in the psychiatric ward of a general hospital on an intensive programme of which I can remember nothing. The third time was in an old fashioned psychiatric hospital, complete with belfries and towers and gothic staircases. I applied for my records last year and was given permission to see them in the presence of the head psychiatrist. I went, it was hard. I still can't write about it. Sorry.
Posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor. The longest lasted 13 months, another lasted 3 months and the majority of the rest were for 6 weeks at a time. They just poured salt in my wounds. I have a dissociative disorder and am bipolar.
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 3:32:59
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
>>They just poured salt in my wounds.
This sounds very painful. Won't you say more?
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:35:09
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :(, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 1:28:10
> I still can't write about it. Sorry.
Please don't be sorry, vwoolf. I understand how hard it is. How do you find the words to use?
There is also the fear of other people's disbelief and censuring. I think it is so difficult for the general public to accept the fact that terrible abuses are happening because they don't want to believe that the doctors and nurses they may have to trust to care for them when they are sick are capable of doing these things -- to them as well.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:54:54
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
Hi Craig,
> I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor.
Twelve. I can't imagine twelve. It is such a huge number. You must be a very strong person.
Were your hospitalizations voluntary or involuntary? Maybe a mixture? If you have experienced both, did you find a difference between the two? Were all admissions to the same hospital? If you were in different hospitals, were some better than others? What kinds of things made one better, if one was?
>They just poured salt in my wounds.Mine too. They widen them and made them much much deeper.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:54:22
I found these old posts:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030626/msgs/239100.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040414/msgs/337387.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031011/msgs/272603.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030913/msgs/261136.htmlIt is hard to write about even good hospital experiences. What are you trying to understand?
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 10:34:21
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> I found these old posts:
Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. I found them interesting to read.
> It is hard to write about even good hospital experiences. What are you trying to understand?
I just wanted an opportunity to share and hear about other people's experiences. I like hearing that you found hospitalization helpful. I didn't. But we can each share our stories without one nullifying the other.
I tend to find that if I say something bad happened to me, the general response often is "I'm sorry that happened to you but just because it did doesn't mean that it happens to everybody" which is very invalidating and a way of silencing me.
I am interested in hearing about everybody's experiences of hospitalization, good and bad. I was happy to hear that Deneb was treated kindly.
In one of your old posts, I found it very interesting to see you write "I loved being restricted because it made me feel safe and taken care of." That is so completely and utterly opposite to my experience. I did not feel safe or taken care of. Differences are fascinating to me.
I guess I'm trying to understand why some people are abused and some aren't, not only in hospitals but in life.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> What are you trying to understand?
I am curious about the reasons why your hospitalization was so wonderful and mine wasn't.
Why?
Is it the hospital itself? The programs your hospital offered were not available in the one I was in. There was no rolling down hills like children or marvellous art projects. Is that because of wealth? Your hospital sounds like it is well-funded. Or is the staff "better" in some way? More responsible or accountable or compassionate or skilled?
Or is it you? Is it something about you? Your attitude? If you had been in the hospital I was in, would you have enjoyed being there? Would those things happening not have bothered you somehow? Or would they have simply never have happened to you? Why?
Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true?
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 12:53:33
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
>>Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true? <<
Oh toojane, I understand where you're going with this - it's the same as I was saying about colluding with mental illness, of making it a part of ourselves.
But I don't like to hear you say it. There's something wrong about it.
I think it's important to keep going back to the origin, to our innocence, to the abuse, and to keep naming it. Everything else is a consequence.
Otherwise we end up accepting a diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder. And that is not ok.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 13:37:44
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
Yes, my hospital was well funded, but not everyone there felt that it was a good experience for them. So I think the hospital/program/staff do make a difference, but what each patient brings makes a difference, too. There is also the question of "fit". Hospital A might be great for me, but awful for you, while Hospital B could be the opposite. A given hospital might be a good fit for a patient at one point and a bad fit later on.
And we, as patients, don't always have control over what we bring. Particularly patients with mental illness. Often our issues prevent us from making use of the resources that are available.
I think that my hospitalizations were good in large part because I was able to see them as opportunities, rather than incarcerations. I saw it as an opportunity to work hard with lots of different kinds of support - support that wasn't otherwise available to me. But that doesn't mean that I didn't resist that support, or believe at some times that it wasn't what I needed. And my hospitalizations weren't ALL good - there were problems - but the benefits outweighed the problems. For instance, I refused to speak to the psychiatrist who had my case the first time when I went in again - I forced (against HIS better judgement) that I be assigned to a different doctor. And then I had a shouting match with the second doctor in the middle of the common room.
I also stayed each time for 2 weeks. The average stay was 3 or 4 days. If I had left after 3 days (particularly the second time), I might not be as positive about the experience.
It is all a matter of fit. What do YOU need NOW, and is THIS hospital able to provide it? That's a lot of variables.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:07:40
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 13:37:44
> A given hospital might be a good fit for a patient at one point and a bad fit later on.
Yeah, I get what you're saying about "fit" but I can't see how these things can ever fit.
I realize I am being vague. It's hard to talk about but I'm not meaning personality clashes with staff or being upset because of limits on personal freedom because of being restricted to a ward.
I'm talking about acts that were humiliating and demeaning and degrading and criminal. If a staff member had done the same thing to a person on the street, they would have been arrested but because it happened in a psychiatric hospital to a mental patient it is allowed. Or, if not "allowed" - possible.
> I think that my hospitalizations were good in large part because I was able to see them as opportunities, rather than incarcerations. I saw it as an opportunity to work hard with lots of different kinds of support - support that wasn't otherwise available to me.
No matter what way I look at it, I cannot frame my experience as an opportunity I failed to take advantage of.
> If I had left after 3 days (particularly the second time), I might not be as positive about the experience.If only I'd been able to leave after three days. The longer I stayed, the worse it got.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:36:35
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 12:53:33
> But I don't like to hear you say it. There's something wrong about it.
I know but I still wonder and ask these questions about myself ALL THE TIME. See, it's easier to talk hypothetically or about someone else. That Australian psychologist did not put dog collars on all his patients. He couldn't have. Not every single one. Why did he pick her? What was it about her? I wonder this about myself constantly.
Why did those things happen to me in the hospital? It was a hospital! Aren't most people helped in hospitals? I can't help thinking there MUST be something off about me. But then, in the hospital, there was absolutely no way that I could get away. Because they locked me in. So is it less my fault, at least that time?
> I think it's important to keep going back to the origin, to our innocence, to the abuse, and to keep naming it. Everything else is a consequence.I know that intellectually. I think. But I still feel very responsible. I want to know exactly what I did or do so that I can stop it.
> Otherwise we end up accepting a diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder. And that is not ok.Didn't women's groups block the inclusion of that "disorder" in the DSM?
Posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:42:10
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
>
> Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
>You dont have to write anything.. it's okay. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience though.
>
> Being locked up on a ward is mind-numbingly boring. There is nothing to do but sit in the day room watching tv. I think it makes you sicker not having anything to distract you, not being able to go anywhere or do anything. The environment does not promote wellness. I think it makes you sicker.
>I absolutely agree. Aside from keeping you from physically killing yourself or hurting yourself, it doesnt do much. "Safe" was obviously not the right word to choose. I only meant it in a physical sense. I'm really sorry this was so bad for you.
Posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:45:42
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:28:02
>
> I don't believe you can truly help people by taking away their choices. I think that once you impose your will on someone else, once you believe it is acceptable to do that, it makes abuses that much easier to happen. Slippery slope.
>Again, just want to say that I agree with you completely. There are certainly situations in which people need to be kept physically safe, and so I can understand the need to protect people in that way with some restrictions (ie, taking away sharps) but taking away ALL choices, ALL freedom, just does not generalize to the outside world. Even aside from the possible abuses which can occur (which I dont mean to trivialize at all, just wanting to add another point), the entire goal of hospitazliation as I know it is to stabalize a person so they can be better, safer, etc when released. But this fake environment doesnt generalize terribly well. Even if you were safe in that environment, if you had no practice in keeping yourself safe or healthy, being released can be very difficult I think.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:04:52
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:45:42
> but taking away ALL choices, ALL freedom, just does not generalize to the outside world
It actually creates a potentially very dangerous world inside the hospital that is attractive to predators.
I'm sure you've probably heard the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The power staff wield over committed mental patients, who have been stripped of all choice, is almost as absolute as it gets.
In a perfect world, the mentally ill would all have benevolent caretakers. But that simply isn't the case.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 20:16:24
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by wishingstar on February 4, 2007, at 18:42:10
> "Safe" was obviously not the right word to choose. I only meant it in a physical sense.
I know, Wishingstar. Safe is part of the lingo. I know you weren't using it in an intentionally upsetting way
It's just that I wasn't physically safe in the hospital. I definitely wasn't emotionally safe there either. Just because you are alive doesn't mean that you are safe. The word safe has become a euphemism for me.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 22:34:59
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 15:07:40
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:39:42
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 3:32:59
I’m having a very hard time with this. I want to tell people what it was like, but I can’t find the words. It’s like trying to scream but no sound comes out.
===========================
> This sounds very painful. Won't you say more?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 3:53:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Craig, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:54:54
I was in six different hospitals. The first two hospitalizations were involuntary in the sense that I was under 18 without legal rights. The other admissions were usually coerced and then once confined, I usually was not permitted to leave. The power that psychiatrists and their minions hold is unbelievable. “Patient rights” is a crock of sh*t. You can’t call anyone when you don’t have phone privileges. And good luck finding legal representation while they’re jabbing your *ss with a hypodermic needle and throwing you in 4-point restraints.
Yes, some hospitals were better than others, but it’s kind of like choosing the lesser of evils. In the end, the people who work there and the patients you’re in with determine the type of experience it is.=============================
> Hi Craig,
>
> > I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor.
>
> Twelve. I can't imagine twelve. It is such a huge number. You must be a very strong person.
>
> Were your hospitalizations voluntary or involuntary? Maybe a mixture? If you have experienced both, did you find a difference between the two? Were all admissions to the same hospital? If you were in different hospitals, were some better than others? What kinds of things made one better, if one was?
Posted by Craig on February 5, 2007, at 4:12:30
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » wishingstar, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
Do you mean a "One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest" kind of experience? Because I know what that’s like. Nurse Ratched was nonfictional to me.
NOTE to Dr. Bob: double double quotes didn't work for the DVD at Amazon, but it should be at http://www.amazon.com/One-Flew-Over-Cuckoos-Nest/dp/0790732181/sr=8-2/qid=1170654162/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-6028088-4861611?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
===================================
> Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
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