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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by littleone on September 6, 2006, at 21:52:08
For a long time now I've really kind of idolised my T. Had him up as some special entity on a pedestal. It's the only way I can keep seeing him. When I see him as a real or ordinary person, things go very badly for me and I really struggle to even just stay in therapy.
For over a month now I've been lost in the nothingness. Just on some sort of numb autopilot. The nothingness kicked in just after a couple of big things hit me. One of which was overhearing some stuff about my T that made him more real and ordinary to me. It's too threatening when that happens.
So we've wondered if this issue is the one causing the nothingness.
And he's thinking about somehow getting off the pedestal. I haven't asked him for specifics. I don't want him off. a) I'll probably do a runner and b) I think I'll be more closed off from him. If he's a real and ordinary person, then things I say/write can hurt him or make him feel/think things. Then I need to start censoring everything and things go downhill.
I'm telling him all this and we'll talk more about it. But I was wondering how other people feel about their T's being special beings or being on a pedestal, etc. What the pros and cons are for them. Has anyone had their T's move from being on a pedestal to being real and ordinary. How that was like for them and how it affected their therapy.
It's interesting because my T says that most kids get real angry at their parents when they realise they are just ordinary people instead of some sort of special entity to look up to. I didn't. My dad was never someone to look up to. He was just a big scary monster. That's why my T thinks I especially need him to be so good and special.
Posted by Jost on September 6, 2006, at 23:19:54
In reply to Falling off the pedestal, posted by littleone on September 6, 2006, at 21:52:08
My T is special, although not because he's not an "ordinary" person--- or at least not because he's on a pedestal.
For example, he makes mistakes, has worries, bad feelings about himself--gets into bad moods, is tired, irrational (at times) discouraged, insensitive, even intemperate.
As a person, he's unusual--intelligent, thoughtful, experienced, interesting, and other things--but mostly, he's someone I care about, and like a lot, and want to know about. That, not to the exclusion of working on my issues, but as part of it-- and in ways that seem important, not in the ways that seem peripheral, or somehow not within my sphere.
What about your T seems suddenly to make him "ordinary"? What does it mean if he is ordinary?
Are you feeling that ordinariness can't come with specialness, or magicalness? -- Not a magic that confers perfect insight or an unlimited power of making things right--
Mostly aliveness, presence, connection rather than detachment, indifference, or nothingness.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:22:34
In reply to Falling off the pedestal, posted by littleone on September 6, 2006, at 21:52:08
Weeellllll.....
I can't say that I ever had my therapist on a pedestal. But there were things I thought about him, things I expected from him, that I found out were unrealistic.
I can't say it hasn't made a difference. I don't feel as much trust in him as I used to. I don't think of him immediately when I'm in distress. And I call him far less frequently than I did between sessions. It's also probably made a bit of difference *in* the session.
I think I'm far more aware that sometimes I'm too much for him. And being more aware of his weakness, I'm more conscious of not wanting to be a burden to him.
It can make a difference. I don't think it necessarily has to be a bad difference. There are good aspects as well. I think there's a shift in the kind of caring I feel for him now.
Actually, I'm not sure that is a good difference. It feels good, but I don't know if it's good for therapy or not.
Sorry. :(
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:48:14
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:22:34
Gack. That was overly negative.
See, my therapist didn't start out on that high a pedestal, and he fell quite a bit, so I'm sure it's different altogether.
I think it's probably a good thing to realize they're human.
Posted by muffled on September 7, 2006, at 1:24:29
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:22:34
I have to know my T is a regular person.
Otherwise if she were having an off day, or not understanding etc. Then it would be ALL my fault cuz she would be perfect, and so it couldn't be her fault.
Also, I think in therapy we learn about interpersonal interactions in a safe place.
If your T is on a pedestal, you can't really have the real interactions that can be so helpful.
And its just plain reality and truth and honest.
My T is honest to me bout how SHE feels sometimes, and that is very important to me.
But yes, it does have its pitfalls, exactly as Dinah said.
But I wouldn't want it any other way.
Take care,
Sorry bout your "dad'. :-(
Muffled
Posted by finelinebob on September 7, 2006, at 1:25:54
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:48:14
I guess I'm very lucky. I arrived in NYC and was asked by HR to pick a name out of a phonebook-like directory to choose my GP ... who happened to turn out to be both a gifted doctor and an extraordinary, caring human being. When I needed an T, he recommended someone who he thought unconventional and so, just like me.
I could not be where I am today without my T. And I'm proud to call her my friend as well as my T. I think we're gotten to a point in my progress, in our progress, where if she **didn't** have the insights into my that a friend would have, she couldn't help me as much as she does.
I came to therapy with a research background in psychology, so I know about "biases" and boundary conditions because I've had them drilled into my head for years. And my T and I tacitly know where they are. But they aren't close enough to stop us from going out on photography trips together or her treating me to dinner (it happened to be Christmas day, but she's Jewish/Buddhist and I don't celebrate holidays).
Then again, she was never on a pedestal for me. The university I got 3+ degrees from has instilled in me a sense of arrogance where I consider no one above me. So maybe it's not my place to be posting here anyway....
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 11:14:00
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by finelinebob on September 7, 2006, at 1:25:54
Of course it's your place to post here.
You don't need multiple degrees to feel that no one is above you. :) I manage it with a bachelors and my grandpa managed it without even a high school diploma. And it's not arrogance, just self assurance. It's only arrogance if you consider that many are below you. I see no sign of that in you.
I think it's great that you are friends with your therapist. My therapist and I have known each other forever and seen each other at our best and worst, but we'll never be friends. Just not enough in common, even setting aside my daddy issues.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 14:23:05
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal » finelinebob, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 11:14:00
Ah, that is patently untrue.
While technically, I don't believe that anyone is above me, I am struck dumb when confronted by anyone well groomed and socially ept.
Posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 15:37:04
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 14:23:05
> Ah, that is patently untrue.
>
> While technically, I don't believe that anyone is above me, I am struck dumb when confronted by anyone well groomed and socially ept.I can't remember the exact line, but it's from a poem by Dorothy Parker. Always resonated for me...
Posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 15:42:37
In reply to Falling off the pedestal, posted by littleone on September 6, 2006, at 21:52:08
This discussion is really interesting to me, because i have a hard time with this, too. In my case, I struggle so much NOT to allow my T to be anything more than my equal. It does interfere with therapy, because I want her to be an Authority Figure for me, I crave that sense of safety, and to be able to ask her to protect me, and to be able to lay my burdens down at her feet -- but I resist that so strongly! I can't ask her to protect me, because she won't. I can't ask her to be more than human, because she'll reject me for wanting it. Etc.
One of the things we kinda sorta work on is me feeling able to call her when I feel as though I need to. I have done it once or twice, but it's veyr rare. I emailed her this weekend, but it apparently didn't go through. (AOL doesn't like my emails...) Mostly, though, I'm the one who walks in saying, "I spent three hours sitting there with the telephone in my hand, but couldn't call you..." Or, "I almost called you, but then decided I had to take care of myself."
Hell, a year ago I checked myself into the psych ward for a few days, rather than call her when I was in crisis! And I was so proud of myself for not bothering her!
Ah, same coin... It's anyone's guess which side is better -- maybe we all hope it eventually lands on its edge?
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 16:16:38
In reply to Sworn to meet beauty as a foe... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 15:37:04
I answered you on Self Esteem (I hope).
Posted by Jost on September 7, 2006, at 16:28:32
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 0:48:14
> Gack. That was overly negative.
>
> See, my therapist didn't start out on that high a pedestal, and he fell quite a bit, so I'm sure it's different altogether.
>
>Wow. I'm glad you aren't being negative, Dinah!
Cause if I were your T, I'd think I'd landed under water, or in a pit, in front of my stepladder? :) (I'm teasing, okay? don't be mad or too mad at me)
Seriously, though-- I thought about this today, when my T was slightly getting on my nerves--
when I've needed him to save me from myself, it's been scary-- because no one can do that-- and I think therefore I made him extremely important, and attributed powers to him-- although not ones that I really thought I could find or get him to use--
It's not at all strange to want to believe that someone has the power to heal you-- and to have a hard time accepting that if they do-- it's only slowly, and with a lot of your own self-healing-- sometimes it's so hard to live with the fact that they can't just reach out and change you--
or that there are these aporia (wow, I actually used this word, I never thought that littleoldme would just come up with a sentence that had it--okay, I have something to feel good about)-- (you had to be in grad school in certain subjects to know why I think that)
and no one can wish them away, or avoid them-- even though they sometimes really swallow everything around them-- or seem to
Jost
Posted by pegasus on September 7, 2006, at 17:05:50
In reply to Sworn to meet beauty as a foe... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 15:37:04
Oh, I'm glad you remembered that quote. Here it is in context:
"The Homebody -- Dorothy Parker
There are still kindly things for me to know,
Who am afraid to dream, afraid to feel --
This chair of scrubbed and dirty deal,
This easy book, this fire, sedate and slow
And I shall stay with them, nor cry the woe
Of wounds across my breast that do not heal;
Nor wish that Beauty drew a duller steel,
Since I am sworn to meet her as a foe."
Posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 17:58:11
In reply to Re: Sworn to meet beauty as a foe... » Racer, posted by pegasus on September 7, 2006, at 17:05:50
I take it you're another fan?
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 18:42:53
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal » Dinah, posted by Jost on September 7, 2006, at 16:28:32
> > Gack. That was overly negative.
> >
> > See, my therapist didn't start out on that high a pedestal, and he fell quite a bit, so I'm sure it's different altogether.
> >
> >
>
> Wow. I'm glad you aren't being negative, Dinah!
>
> Cause if I were your T, I'd think I'd landed under water, or in a pit, in front of my stepladder? :) (I'm teasing, okay? don't be mad or too mad at me)Yes, that's what he often says. Why should I be mad at you for saying the same? Of course, he'd also acknowledge that he did fall in a pit or under water. And feel sad that we were both caught in the same vortex at the same time leaving him at far less than his best when I needed him most.
> Seriously, though-- I thought about this today, when my T was slightly getting on my nerves--
>
> when I've needed him to save me from myself, it's been scary-- because no one can do that-- and I think therefore I made him extremely important, and attributed powers to him-- although not ones that I really thought I could find or get him to use--
>
> It's not at all strange to want to believe that someone has the power to heal you-- and to have a hard time accepting that if they do-- it's only slowly, and with a lot of your own self-healing-- sometimes it's so hard to live with the fact that they can't just reach out and change you--Do I have that belief? Hmmm... I'd always thought that if he reached out to try to change me, he'd end up with a bandage on that hand. I always thought it was his unique ability to accept me that was his great strength.
>
> or that there are these aporia (wow, I actually used this word, I never thought that littleoldme would just come up with a sentence that had it--okay, I have something to feel good about)-- (you had to be in grad school in certain subjects to know why I think that)Well, by gum, I guess there *are* things that degrees give you that allow you to think no one is better than you are. Graduate school must be special. I wasn't in grad school on any subjects, so I'll have to remain in ignorance. Fortunately that doesn't make me feel at any disadvantage. :)
>
> and no one can wish them away, or avoid them-- even though they sometimes really swallow everything around them-- or seem to
>
> Jost
Posted by happyflower on September 7, 2006, at 18:53:01
In reply to {huge grin} Thank you » pegasus, posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 17:58:11
Wow, my T and I have gone is circles about this in the beginning of therapy. He doesn't want to be on a pedestal, because he says he is nobody special. I think this is why he discloses so much, to show me he is just a ordinary guy. I do see myself as his equal,(if not better than him sometimes, lol), but he is a special character . In the beginning I might have had him on a pedestal, but he convinced me to bring him down. yeah, I like it real, for me anyways.
Posted by pegasus on September 7, 2006, at 21:54:26
In reply to {huge grin} Thank you » pegasus, posted by Racer on September 7, 2006, at 17:58:11
Yes, very much. She's was a genius in my book. :)
Posted by Jost on September 7, 2006, at 22:28:45
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 18:42:53
> >>or that there are these aporia (wow, I actually used this word, I never thought that littleoldme would just come up with a sentence that had it--okay, I have something to feel good about)-- (you had to be in grad school in certain subjects to know why I think that)
Well, by gum, I guess there *are* things that degrees give you that allow you to think no one is better than you are. Graduate school must be special. I wasn't in grad school on any subjects, so I'll have to remain in ignorance. Fortunately that doesn't make me feel at any disadvantage. :)
~~Using aporia in a sentence isn't that big a deal, unfortunately, as to cause one to feel that no one is better than oneself--although it may help some people feel better about some other people. I'm not exactly sure what you're implying, if you're implying something.
It did/does make me feel a little better about myself to have found a moment when aporia fit what I wanted to say-- although I can't say it changes much-- all of which might be hard to understand-- however, that's okay. I'm still happy that it occurred to me and that I noticed that I had used it.
It is kind of funny though, the whole nexus of that word here and in other places I've been.
Probably anyone here has some things like that-- special types of knowledge or areas of competence and conflict about that.
I haven't in the past wanted my T to change who I am-- except for my sense of not being worthwhile-- which is a big thing-- but is somewhat separate from my actual qualities or faculties, or temperament. I may incorrectly think that if I felt more worthwhile, at a basic level, a lot of other problems or inhibitions, or shortcomings in my life would be greatly mitigated.I'm glad things are going well with your T-
Jost
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2006, at 23:38:58
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal » Dinah, posted by Jost on September 7, 2006, at 22:28:45
I likely misunderstood what you were trying to say. I'm sorry for misunderstanding.
It can be a difficult medium to read intent.
Posted by Daisym on September 7, 2006, at 23:59:16
In reply to Re: Falling off the pedestal » Dinah, posted by Jost on September 7, 2006, at 22:28:45
Do you think keeping your therapist "human" is also a defense against getting attached to them? It seems to me that we do come into therapy with a hope that this person can guide us towards feeling better. And I think one of the secrets is that it works better when we are allowed to believe that they can - help us feel better, that is. I can't tell you how many times I begged my therapist to use his magic wand or crystal ball to make it all better, right now! Hope takes many forms. Right now, mine is in the form of my therapist. Is that putting him on a pedastol? Maybe. But more, I think it is believing in him. Therapy magic - what a concept.
Posted by Jost on September 8, 2006, at 6:49:22
In reply to Follow up question, posted by Daisym on September 7, 2006, at 23:59:16
The hope is really important, I think. This may not apply to others, but in my experience, hope is one of those difficult emotions, because it's connected so strongly to disappointment. Therefore it becomes difficult to have, or keep, it-- but if you reject hope, and feel much safer with hopelessness, it prevents a lot of things from happening (or having the chance to happen).
Placing hope in a T makes a lot of sense-- they can't change you, per se, but you and they could have experiences that are different from the ones that are associated with and have created or sustain one's self-destructiveness, or defeatedness, or stymie one's desires or will.
Not all Ts deserve that trust, but, what I meant (I think) was that, if you do have different experiences, or rework old experiences, it seems to make a difference over time. I think of that as happening with someone human, but special (at least to me)-- so for me it's associated with more of an attachment. But if "human" connotes failed, defective--or other things that one wants to avoid or deny-- then it could be a source of distrust, and disappointment.
Of course, ADs can also make a difference-- I really shouldn't leave that out, at least for me.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on September 8, 2006, at 9:57:34
In reply to Follow up question, posted by Daisym on September 7, 2006, at 23:59:16
I think my answer is two part.
I think originally I might have defended against my therapist that way.
But that despite my defenses there was something about therapy, and about my therapist in specific, something about his way of being, that soothed me. It made no sense, as I knew he was just a flawed man like everyone else, so I did see it as magic. Still do in a way, although I guess it's no more magic than the agitation I get in a crowded room.
Of course, the flip side to his "magic" qualities annoy me from time to time. Serene/phlegmatic accepting/not pushing me. But I always accept that the better comes with the bitter, and I generally find it rather amusing.
Seeing him disintegrate under pressure worse than I did was a different matter of course. And seeing him do things that were objectively bad under the precepts of his profession under that pressure was not so good. My interim therapist said that no matter how I tried, I'd never be able to forget what happened, and it would change the therapeutic relationship forever. My therapist is more than a bit miffed about that, and I'm trying to make it not so. I haven't succeeded yet, obviously, but it's early days yet. And I never underestimate my ability to forget.
But I don't suppose that's a widely generalizable situation.
Posted by Dinah on September 8, 2006, at 10:11:43
In reply to Falling off the pedestal, posted by littleone on September 6, 2006, at 21:52:08
Littleone, how are you feeling?
I can understand how upsetting it can be to hear things about people that don't fit your view of them. Even if it wasn't a pedestal knocking thing, I think it'd be discombobulating for a while, as you reassess things.
Is your main concern that he can't protect you if he's not perfect?
It sounds more like you are afraid you'll harm him if he's not perfect.
Littleone, that isn't true. Therapists are trained to take care of themselves. On a pedestal or not, you don't have to take care of him. He can take care of himself. They know how to do that through supervision, through getting therapy themselves if they need to, through many many ways, some of which they try to teach us.
It doesn't matter whether you're afraid you'll harm him by telling him things from your past, or if you're afraid you'll harm him by saying unkind things to him.
You won't. The boundaries of therapy that are so annoying to us are the real protection for us and also for them. It allows real imperfect beings to be therapists and to help their real clients.
Sometimes... Sometimes knowing that therapists are flawed can help as well. I was disclosing something I was ashamed of the other day. And I said something along the lines that he'd never do such a thing. After a bit of thinking, he said he probably would. It felt better than if I had disclosed the same thing to a paragon of virtue and strength who would have probably thought "*I* the great would never do such a thing."
To me, there's something rather lovely about the idea of flawed human beings helping flawed human beings.
Posted by muffled on September 9, 2006, at 1:30:51
In reply to Follow up question, posted by Daisym on September 7, 2006, at 23:59:16
Posted by littleone on September 12, 2006, at 15:25:34
In reply to littleone????? (nm), posted by muffled on September 9, 2006, at 1:30:51
Sorry, but I don't feel up to continuing this discussion. I should never have started this thread. I'm sorry I won't be responding to anyone.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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