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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 19:59:51
In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 22:35:46
> Oh dear. I hate to see you quit if it helps at least some (and doesn't harm along the way). But only you can decide that, really.
yeah. and that... is a hard one. sometimes i think yes, it is helpful for me to see her. othertimes i think no i am just wasting both of our time.
and i vaccilate a fair bit.
we aren't really doing any work...
but then i suppose you get out what you put in. i just don't seem to be able to put more into it. because of our match i suppose. i don't know...:-(
> I would want to know her thinking on the hypnosis thing, too, because I agree that's it's usually not good for folks who dissociate.turns out there wasn't much more behind it than that she personally found it useful.
> Here's that DBT self-help website I was telling you about. www.dbtselfhelp.com
thanks.
> Just trying to offer some sense of hope and choice.
> ((((alexandra)))
thanks gg.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:00:51
In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on October 13, 2005, at 23:01:52
> Like gg I don't want to see you lose this if it helps in even the smallest way, but all this cr*p sure must make it hard to stay.thanks damos.
that means a lot.
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:05:29
In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 5:36:00
i think the trouble is...
that she has to use what she knows, what she has been trained in as her base.her training is in having a chat (a 1-3 session chat) with people in order to help them see their way a bit clearer around a fairly particular problem.
i don't know much about her base
the stuff she has read
just what it is exactly that she is trained in.and so it is hard to talk about it because we are coming from very different places.
i don't agree with the majority of the lit that i have read. but at least i can talk about the points of disagreement with the standard lit. she hasn't read the standard lit. so we kind of talk past each other when discussing these things.
basically... i need to accept her for who she is and what she does.
and that means...
general chat is okay
and that can be helpful
but with respect to anything more
thats all folks.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14
In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:05:29
scam got me thinking about a variety of things...
what most struck me was the point that oftentimes people in the service encourage people to believe that they will die outside the service.
that hit me real hard. thats pretty much what i believe. that i'll die if i don't get help. that i'll fall apart. that i won't be able to function. that i dont' have a future. that there isn't any hope.
and what has the service done for me?
one helpful therapist
and so much so very much harm that i just can't even start to get that across
and they gave me horrible stereotypes via which i learned to view myself
borderline
attention seeking
manipulative
hysterical
liar
and they provided me with supplimentary symptoms and encouraged me to...
get worse
because i had to get worse to get treatment
and i believed i'd die without it.and so i'm powerless and i hate them so much
and i've given them the power
and they encouraged me to
and it has f*cked me up so immensely
and it has almost resulted in my death at times
i never started trying to kill myself
till i was hospitalised involountarily
i never started si
till i was asked about it so much i thought it might be something that was worth a shot - i mean it must help if people do it - right?but there isn't anything wrong with me.
i'm okay.
i struggle at times.
but that is part of life.
i might struggle more than the majority of people
but that doesn't mean i have a disease
that i'm defectiveand so i have been thinking about all this...
and i thought i found a revelation
i felt so very happy for the past few days
so very happy
but i've been spinning a lot too
because of all the other sh*t that was mixed up with that stuff.i think... i need to move on from the services.
move on from therapy
move on from feeling guilty about not taking a medication that really doesn't seem to help me anyway.and yesterday...
i got a letter.
that registrar i went to see...
has recomended that i be discharged from the service.i'm discharged.
they discharged me.
i don't feel i have access to the 'revelation' anymore. times really are very tough sometimes. but the point is that the service harms me more than it helps.
and enough
i've had enoughi have people who mean a great deal to me
a strangers smile means a great deal to me
other people are mostly kind if you give them a chance
things are hard at times
but i'm going to make it
i don't need themand i am going to work on this:
i don't want them
i dont' want them harming me anymore.
time to move on.
i'll keep seeing my t from uni.
we can have our general chats and i'll take comfort from the fact that she caresbut its probably a good thing that i'm not feeling too attached to her
new country
new starti dont' wan tto see myself as mentally ill as diseased as NEEDING the mental health service anymore.
enough.
and i feel more at peace.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 21:28:41
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14
i don't want them harming me anymore
i don't want their diagnoses
i don't want their judgements
i don't want their predictions about the course my life is going to take
i don't want them encouraging my dependence
i don't want themi don't want to view myself as having a mental illness
i'm not ill
i'm not sicki'm okay.
i can work through stuff for myself
i can babble about it to others and get a variety of perspectives
i can talk to caring people on the boards
and irl tooand i have realised just how closed off from rl i have become
i turn away from rl to come herehere is wonderful
here is safe
but i need that real life stuff as well
and i need to cultivate that
and i need to think more about my work
than about dramas on the boardsbecause i don't want to think...
that i'll die without this place
that i can't connect with people outside this place
because if i start to think that
then this place will harm more than help too...i guess this is going to be a lot like an alchoholic trying to give up drinking.
when i get distressed i want the service to help me
i think about that a lot
the way alchoholics think about drinking
its an addiction
and it will take some time
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 8:45:19
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14
Hey Alex,
You are so much more than okay. You are so smart and helpful.
I am in much the same place you are right now.
I feel like I was so much better off, so much happier and healthier before therapy.
I will try to post more coherently later. I have a horrible headache right now.
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 9:37:41
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14
>
> that hit me real hard. thats pretty much what i believe. that i'll die if i don't get help. that i'll fall apart. that i won't be able to function. that i dont' have a future. that there isn't any hope.
>
Yeah for me too. My therapist has me convinced not that I'll die but that I'll be a robot, a cold, heartless b*tch.> and what has the service done for me?
>
> one helpful therapist
> and so much so very much harm that i just can't even start to get that across
> and they gave me horrible stereotypes via which i learned to view myself
> borderline
> attention seeking
> manipulative
> hysterical
> liar
> and they provided me with supplimentary symptoms and encouraged me to...
> get worse
> because i had to get worse to get treatment
> and i believed i'd die without it.
>
Oh Alex. I know what you mean. I wish I could tell you it could be better somewhere else. But I don't know.> and so i'm powerless and i hate them so much
> and i've given them the power
> and they encouraged me to
> and it has f*cked me up so immensely
> and it has almost resulted in my death at times
> i never started trying to kill myself
> till i was hospitalised involountarily
> i never started si
> till i was asked about it so much i thought it might be something that was worth a shot - i mean it must help if people do it - right?
>
((((Alex))))). But I think you're starting to take back the power, right?
> but there isn't anything wrong with me.
> i'm okay.
> i struggle at times.
> but that is part of life.
> i might struggle more than the majority of people
> but that doesn't mean i have a disease
> that i'm defective
>
That's right. You're smart and sensitive and sometimes that makes it more difficult to function in the world but never defective.
> i don't feel i have access to the 'revelation' anymore. times really are very tough sometimes. but the point is that the service harms me more than it helps.
>
Well ask us to repeat it for you. You are okay. You are not any of those things they've said.
>
> i have people who mean a great deal to me
> a strangers smile means a great deal to me
> other people are mostly kind if you give them a chance
> things are hard at times
> but i'm going to make it
> i don't need them
>
That's right. I'm not saying that there aren't some really good therapists out there and some that have really helped people. But there's also a lot of nonsense and there is harm. There is definitely harm being done to people.
> and i am going to work on this:
>
> i don't want them
>
> i dont' want them harming me anymore.
>
> time to move on.
>
> i'll keep seeing my t from uni.
> we can have our general chats and i'll take comfort from the fact that she cares
>
> but its probably a good thing that i'm not feeling too attached to her
>
> new country
> new start
>
> i dont' wan tto see myself as mentally ill as diseased as NEEDING the mental health service anymore.
>
> enough.
>
> and i feel more at peace.Yes, try to hang onto that and the revelation too. Have your chats, get whatever you can out of them, don't take anyting she says too seriously, stay in touch with us if it helps, and begin to live. You are an incredible asset to this world. Enough time has been given to the b*stards who try to keep us down, categorize us, judge us. Don't you think? Enough already.
Can you tell I'm talking to myself too? :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 19:55:09
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 9:37:41
> Can you tell I'm talking to myself too? :-)
yes. and if they aren't helping us really come to believe this stuff then... they are harming.
i know there are some good clinicians out there.
i don't imagine they last long in community mental health. because of the work conditions. because of the pressure to get through huge numbers of cases. because of the pressure to have objective measures of helping at the cost of genuine caring whose effects are only indirectly measurable if at all. because a good clinician working in that environment probably wouldn't last long without burning out and being pressurised to change from management.
and so in a very real sense i suppose you get what you pay for.
though payment doesn't guarantee.
there are a lot of f*cked up people in the world. f*cked up individuals with f*cked up motivations and desires and f*cked up ideas as to how to achieve those. in my experience... clinicians can be just as f*cked up as the people who go see them wanting their help. the trouble is... we expect more.
but in these times where there is a shortage of caring people and so very many who need care entry to do this kind of thing isn't so much based on the kindness and willingness to reflect of the applicants as it is based on their grades and ability to suck up to the 'right people'. at least... thats my experience of clinical psychology / councelling programs in this country and i imagine in the rest of the world too.
i don't know...
good luck to them i suppose.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 19:55:09
well...
so that registrar did pass me on to the other doc. and yeah, i got a letter saying he had recomended that i be discharged. and so... i had a chat to the other doc. and yeah. they have discharged me. apparantly... get this. but apparantly i function too well to be treated within the service. they are haggling over whether DID counts as a 'major axis one dx' (they don't think it does) they are even willing to quibble over whether the disorder is 'real' (seems that 'officially' they think not at this point in time) and they think it is a grand joke that i was dx'd with bpd.unbelievable.
yeah ok so i got all sh*tty and lost it a bit. went off about how what are they trying to do? do they need me to go off the deep end and mess myself up or what? part of me... is getting pretty strong urges round about now. he said that i function too well... and that based on my functioning i should never have received the treatment that i have thus far within the service either.
so that is that.
i am so f*cking mad. and sad. i swear to god that if i ever seriously am going to do anything to myself i am not going down alone. no f*cking way. i can't believe this...
he said that yeah i report subjective distress, but me and how many others? subjective distress is not appropriate criteria to determine whether or not someone receives intervention from within the service.
i haven't been in contact with the service for most of this year. haven't really been getting any treatment for a while now.
and now... they are using that as evidence for my high functioning without service intervention.
and so yeah i started making threats.
i hate myself so much.
but if its any consolation
i hate them more.i am so f*cking mad...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:50:08
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25
and money money money makes the world go around
and i feel sick to my stomach
and i want to get off
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2005, at 21:21:22
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25
I'm mad for you too. I can't believe what they've been doing to you for the entire time you've been here.
I can see why you don't want to be part of this world, but you are so valuable and special a person, Alexandra. Yours isn't the only care provider in the world. Weren't you even planning to move on soon? Hopefully you'll be able to find more compassion and integrity elsewhere. You have so much to offer, Alexandra. Keep remembering that, and think of these people as what they are. It has nothing to do with who you are or how much you deserve. Because you deserve the best.
I'm rambling I know. But I'm rambling with a lot of caring and concern for you. Remember all those who do care about you.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2005, at 21:21:22
yeah planning on moving on. i only put off moving on for so long because i wanted to get better before i went. i could have started applying to get out of here since the end of 2003 but i've been waiting for treatment...
fact is i'm not going to get any.
i won't have any coverage at all if i leave the country. us offered student health insurance. not so for australia. they treat for emergency and deport for non-emergency (if you can't fund it yourself). i won't even be going to a gp over there.
so that is that.
and even if there is a bloody miracle and i manage to get through 3-4 years of study without a single episode...
well then based on the stats i still probably won't actually get a job.
i wish i could have stuck to the revelation
it was so much easier to live with myself then
but one contact
one simple contact
and i spiral down out of control
once more.that was horrible.
i think...
they really decided to bring out the calvary with respect to justifying their treatment decision.i got the whole 'it would be unethical of me to treat you as much as i'd like to' f*cking b*llshit. because i... take time off people who need the service to function. major guilts. i felt like a three year old packing a tantrum because nobody would buy her a sweet.
and with respect to the bpd... he laughed. he really really laughed. he said there was no way i met criteria. and did i really believe that? and i said that sometimes when people start making assumptions and judgements about how you are as a person then you come to see yourself that way too. and he just laughed.
that messed me up so bad.
they told me i'd never be able to go back to varsity because of that.
they laughed at me when i said i wanted to - because of that.and now he laughs.
i'm not doing so well.
part of me is just screaming out to do one hell of an 'I F*CKING TOLD YOU SO AND YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE ME AND NOW I'VE SHOWN YOU'. Everybody. Somebody.Because... Chances are... That I really can't do it by myself anyway...
Kid throwing a tantrum...
or something...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:50:14
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34
and that old p-doc...
is in the sh*t for having seen me when i was 'functioning too highly'
and the specialist assessment isn't worth sh*t
for the obvious reason that she is in private practice
private practice where everybody who wants treatment gets treatment
not the public service where they'll only want to treat you if you fight that tooth and nail.they used to talk about bpd as being on the borderline. the borderline between psychotic and neurotic (technically). unofficially... the borderline between sane and crazy.
and thats me
thats where i'm at
and it is like fighting to stay sane
fighting to stay sane
till it gets you in the end...
and sometimes i just feel so tired
and like...
there isn't any hope
because if you do what you have always done
you get what you have always got
and i don't understand how i am supposed to do this myself
i don't understand how i am supposed to fix myself
i don't understand
and all i know is that they don't care
they don't care
they just want me to go away
they have been trying for so long...
and i knew they were doing that
but then sometimes i'd question myself
think it can't be that bad
think i was being paranoid
think that i was being unfair to them
think that i was being selfish
but i was right
they just want me to go away
they have been trying for so long
and my inability to accept that...it is like a three year old throwing a tantrum
and so i let them take what little self-respect i have
and i degrade myself by begging and pleading and anything anythingand this has to stop
i know it has to stop
and its over now
because i'm discharged
and that is that.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:53:48
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:50:14
and it doesn't matter anyway because it is only 'subjective distress' which isn't worth sh*t. and even if i did do something that will just come back on me anyway. i know enough about their excuses and rationales and justifications to know that none of that is worth a damn except insofar as it justifies the bit they are determined not to budge on: no treatment.
and maybe... the service did make me worse
and now they've called that bluff...
they figure its just wiser to let me die...
or something...
because i'm just this big f*ck up
this big f*ck up that shows them how much harm they can do
how not everybody gets better with medication
how there is too much need in the world
and how you can only turn your back
about how that...
can be the ethical thing to do
apparantly.i need to think
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 25, 2005, at 0:08:21
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:53:48
Reading this made me so angry.
I just cant believe what they have put you through. is there absolutely no way that you could get some sort of funding in Australia? You are not a f*ck up by any means Alex, you have done a lot especially considering what you have been through!frustrated....
Posted by muffled on October 25, 2005, at 0:26:41
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:53:48
People keep telling me I'm not a f*ckup. Hmmmm. You sure seem to think of alot of cool stuff. I love the way you write. I wish I had an answer for you. Mebbe you just need a break for awhile and see how it goes? Your most definately a special individual, whether you choose to beleive it or not. I'm so sorry things are so hard for you. Never give up hope. If you do, THEY win, and we can't have that. This is proly stupid. I just care is all.
Muffled.
Posted by Damos on October 25, 2005, at 0:50:27
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:53:48
If I wasn't reading this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it. MAD! Mad don't come even close.
Can't begin to imagine how you're feeling right now. You are and mean so much to so many of us here. You have given more care, more help and shown more sensitivity to people here than their system have ever shown you. You do so much good, and all the while you've gone on and achieved so much in your own right in your own life. So much that they said you couldn't.
There is a thing in Oz called Overseas Student Health Cover, and as I've said before you just get here and we'll work the rest out.
Don't you believe what they say cause they don't know YOU. Just please take care of you.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:48:29
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 25, 2005, at 0:08:21
>is there absolutely no way that you could get some sort of funding in Australia?
physical health will be problematic enough. mental health will be out of the question.
sorry.
not sure what else to say...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:49:45
In reply to ((((Alex)))), posted by muffled on October 25, 2005, at 0:26:41
hey. thanks. can't really have a break... have one month to finish my thesis. then i can have a bit of a break. although... i should get a job. so that will be the next stress.
still... stuff to keep me going i suppose...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:51:28
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on October 25, 2005, at 0:50:27
hey.
> There is a thing in Oz called Overseas Student Health Cover...
medical only
no pre-existing conditionsi'm sorry damos.
its that time of the month again...
maybe that explains it.and on that note...
i wonder how gg is doing.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:59:20
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:51:28
the guilts... that is the worst thing.
thats what i meant about the calvary having arrived... i think they figured that i wasn't going to go down without a bit of a fight. easy enough to get someone armed with the well thought out thats what our lawyers are going to be saying in court should it come to that rationale. easy enough to arm someone with that and make sure they get me where it hurts. easy enough to run rings around me to exploit my sensitivities to turn it all around on me.because i was upset.
and he knew that. he knew i was going to be. and so did they.
and it worked.
brilliant. i bet admin is stoked with him. well done. he even managed to recover rather admirably from being caught in an un-truth or two...
well bravo
how does it feel to run rings around the mentally ill?
help you feel better about yourself?
for working for a bunch of *sshole managers who don't give a sh*t about the welfare of individuals?
help you sleep better?oh, but then i function okay
so i guess its not like kicking a dog who is already down after all
no
the dog managed to get up firstbravo
well done(ill put this here because very wisely he hasn't given me his email address...)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 4:08:57
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 3:59:20
though come to think of it...
i do have a few email addresses...any disgruntled people out there want to join a hate mail campaign???
babblemail me for details
;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 4:09:36
In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 4:08:57
not so much hate mail
as venting mail
to be clear...any takers?
Posted by gardenergirl on October 25, 2005, at 8:08:24
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34
Alex,
I just don't know what to say about the situation you are in. I would be really really angry, too. I'm so sorry.thinking of you...
gg
Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2005, at 8:44:10
In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34
I wish that I knew what to say, but the whole situation is just beyond belief.
I'm so sorry they did this to you. It is just mind boggling really.
I know the impulse to get back at them by hurting yourself. Unfortunately they never get the message you're trying to send that way. :(
One thing I learned from my recent absence from my therapist is that it's the period right after contact when I feel the worst. As time goes on, the pain wears off unless he contacts me again.
Maybe it will be similar for you. I hope so.
((((Alexandra))))
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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