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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2005, at 21:47:08
In reply to Re: Ch 5 - Transference, Not Just for Therapy Anym » pegasus, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2005, at 2:01:33
There were some interesting stories in this chapter.
I must be in the mood to apply everything I read to myself and my therapy. In evaluating the overall message, that ideally therapists will take a middle ground on the concept of shared reality - admitting that while part of how the client reacts is based on their past, they shouldn't discount their own role - I realized how very good my therapist is at walking this line. I don't recall him ever discounting what I've said by calling it transference. He's always willing to admit the role he's played in our interactions. But he might also bring up patterns of behavior on my part, or past experiences, and relate them to what's going on as well. He does that very carefully, I must admit. He says I bite!
I was trying to figure out how much transference plays a role in my interactions with others. How much one or two characteristics might lead me to generalize about a person's entire being, based on prior experience.
I'm not sure that I do it that often with my parents. I don't assume anyone's like my father, in any way that counts. He's rather unique. And I don't *think* I do it much with my mother except with myself. If I see someone violating personal space at a party, I don't generally assume they're likely to swallow someone whole or invade them like my mother would. But if I see myself come anywhere close to violating someone's personal space, I immediately writhe in agony, thinking that I'll be an engulfer and invader like my mother.
I see it more at work with situations. Like, my mother left me at school after kindergarten in the days before aftercare, when you just didn't leave your kids at school. So I'd be sitting there wondering if she'd be a little late (she couldn't help being a little late, because of where she worked) or if she'd be two hours late. And getting angry and perhaps a bit scared. Probably looking around and thinking that I know Mama loves me, but there aren't any other kindergarteners alone in the schoolyard. If Mama really loved me, would she leave me alone? There aren't even any other kids close to kindergarten age in the schoolyard. Just some high school kids. Do their Mamas love them more than mine loves me? But of course she loves me, she can't help it. But... The teachers are gone. They've left to go pick up their little girls. Why hasn't Mama left to go pick up me? And yes it's fun to sit on the vice principal's desk. He doesn't know many kindergarteners by name, but he knows me. But sometimes the office people are close to picking up and going home by the time Mama comes. What will happen if they close the gates? Will they lock me inside or outside?
So when my therapist doesn't know whether or not he's going on vacation until the day before he leaves, I do feel like that little girl sitting on the steps peering down the street, and a lot of those old feelings come back.
So situationally, I think I experience transference.
And also in very closely related situations, I might experience it. I probably experienced some similarities between biofeedback guy and the pdoc from h*ll, and since they were both in the mental health profession and I was in a similar position to both, I probably made a few leaps forward in deciding what biofeedback guy was like, based on what I knew of the pdoc from h*ll.
Babble is another place where it's easy to do that.
I'll confess that I still have trouble with the stories that suggest that therapists fall in love or experience strong sexual attraction to their clients. It's so far outside my experience. I can understand a client falling for a therapist. The situation seems to be perfect for that. But I still can't manage to put my mind around the reverse. A therapist would obviously go into therapy understanding that it would be disastrous to feel anything sexual or romantic towards their clients. I just don't have the appropriate inner resources to concieve of an attraction being strong enough to overcome that. I suppose I can imagine noting an attraction, but I have trouble understanding that it could affect them enough to affect therapy. I'm sure that's a lack in me.
Posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 3:34:17
In reply to Chapter 6: Gaslighting, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2005, at 21:47:08
I thought the ideas raised in the chapter on gaslighting were really important. Although therapists won’t tell us much about what they’re thinking or how they’re feeling, it’s inevitable that we’ll pick up on their emotions from time to time.
I was so angry when I read Andi’s story about her therapist blaming her for his sleepiness and claiming she wasn’t being genuine in therapy. Even though there was a happy ending, I still feel outraged that a therapist could mess with someone’s head in this way.
So I’m glad the theorists are now accepting that therapists don’t have a monopoly on reality. I think there’s still a tendency in the world in general to perceive mental illness as characterised by a failure to grasp reality.
> So when my therapist doesn't know whether or not he's going on vacation until the day before he leaves, I do feel like that little girl sitting on the steps peering down the street, and a lot of those old feelings come back.
How very distressing! The world is such a confusing place for small children. I can see how your therapist's holidays would evoke the same feelings.
> And also in very closely related situations, I might experience it. I probably experienced some similarities between biofeedback guy and the pdoc from h*ll, and since they were both in the mental health profession and I was in a similar position to both, I probably made a few leaps forward in deciding what biofeedback guy was like, based on what I knew of the pdoc from h*ll.
Yeah, but you could well have been right. I tend to think those kinds of transferences work to our advantage just as much as the ‘new friend’ transferences. If you’ve seen something you don’t like, it probably does go with other things you don’t like. I do believe in giving people second chances, but I have to admit I don’t often change my initial response to someone. Still, it has happened, so I’ll keep making the effort to get to know people a bit before I decide whether I’m going to like them. And I like most people!
> Babble is another place where it's easy to do that.
I think there’s something about communicating online that encourages transference. And it can take some time to get a feel for people’s personalities. I think there are still a few posters I confuse with other posters. One thing I find curious is that it takes me much less time to get a sense of someone who has a posting name that’s actually a name (like Dinah!) rather than an epithet.
> I'll confess that I still have trouble with the stories that suggest that therapists fall in love or experience strong sexual attraction to their clients. It's so far outside my experience. I can understand a client falling for a therapist. The situation seems to be perfect for that. But I still can't manage to put my mind around the reverse. A therapist would obviously go into therapy understanding that it would be disastrous to feel anything sexual or romantic towards their clients. I just don't have the appropriate inner resources to concieve of an attraction being strong enough to overcome that. I suppose I can imagine noting an attraction, but I have trouble understanding that it could affect them enough to affect therapy. I'm sure that's a lack in me.
I tend to think the strength of the attraction can lie in the therapist’s own transference: the attraction is out of proportion to the situation. A mild attraction is one thing, and I expect most therapists feel somewhat attracted to some of their clients some of the time. But a strong sexual desire for a client is probably based in transference or countertransference, I imagine, and therefore difficult to resolve quickly. All the more reason for therapists to be fully aware of their own issues!
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 8:35:43
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 3:34:17
> I thought the ideas raised in the chapter on gaslighting were really important. Although therapists won’t tell us much about what they’re thinking or how they’re feeling, it’s inevitable that we’ll pick up on their emotions from time to time.
Absolutely. And my therapist has found with me that it's wisest to admit to the immediate emotion and some of what caused it. He doesn't generally (the dependent woman incident aside) tell me about his deeper issues. He will sometimes say that something is his own issue, not mine, but not often because that inevitably leads to questions. So he'll usually just own the behavior or the immediate emotion. When he used to try to deny it, it would just upset me more and more because I put my own interpretations on what it meant.
>
> I was so angry when I read Andi’s story about her therapist blaming her for his sleepiness and claiming she wasn’t being genuine in therapy. Even though there was a happy ending, I still feel outraged that a therapist could mess with someone’s head in this way.
>
In his defense, I can't remember how many books I've read where therapists are urged to use their feelings, including feelings of sleepiness, to use their countertransference, to figure out what is going on in therapy. And I must confess that my therapist used to fall asleep or get really sleepy a lot in therapy. I'm not shy so I brought it up, he admitted it was his fault, and we tried changing chairs, changing appointment times, everything. When I stopped being superrational and brought my emotions to therapy he quit getting sleepy. He almost never gets sleepy anymore. So there might be something to it.But there is a matter of timing. A therapist might use their sleepiness to determine what's going on in therapy, but there's no point bringing that up at the exact moment he's been caught in impropriety. A therapist is being paid for his time and attention. To fall asleep is not good, no matter what. A heartfelt apology is what's called for then. Questions about how genuine the client is being can be brought up when the client has less justifiable anger.
IM (not usually) HO
> > Babble is another place where it's easy to do that.
>
> I think there’s something about communicating online that encourages transference. And it can take some time to get a feel for people’s personalities. I think there are still a few posters I confuse with other posters. One thing I find curious is that it takes me much less time to get a sense of someone who has a posting name that’s actually a name (like Dinah!) rather than an epithet.You know, I think that's true of me as well. And it isn't only because choosing a name is indicative of your personality either. I don't think I'd be Dinah had I chosen Lily as a posting name. Both perfectly fine names, but different mental images. But that's also true of non-name names, so that can't be the answer. Maybe there's something in the way our brains work. Proper names stimulate a different part of the brain or something? All my dogs but one have human names. Hmmm...
>
> > I'll confess that I still have trouble with the stories that suggest that therapists fall in love or experience strong sexual attraction to their clients. It's so far outside my experience. I can understand a client falling for a therapist. The situation seems to be perfect for that. But I still can't manage to put my mind around the reverse. A therapist would obviously go into therapy understanding that it would be disastrous to feel anything sexual or romantic towards their clients. I just don't have the appropriate inner resources to concieve of an attraction being strong enough to overcome that. I suppose I can imagine noting an attraction, but I have trouble understanding that it could affect them enough to affect therapy. I'm sure that's a lack in me.
>
> I tend to think the strength of the attraction can lie in the therapist’s own transference: the attraction is out of proportion to the situation. A mild attraction is one thing, and I expect most therapists feel somewhat attracted to some of their clients some of the time. But a strong sexual desire for a client is probably based in transference or countertransference, I imagine, and therefore difficult to resolve quickly. All the more reason for therapists to be fully aware of their own issues!
>
>
I think you're right. I guess I see that there are some situations where taboos should be stronger than attraction. Family members, or teacher/student, or therapist/client. At least on the part of the person with more power and more training. I would imagine that letting someone in that far would indicate some other issues being involved.I have to confess that I'm sometimes glad I'm plain. I feel free to talk about all manner of things with my therapist that I'd be shy to bring up if I were attractive. But I don't think he'd ever be so stupid as to let desire or attraction bring him past a certain point, no matter what. At least I hope so, because I'd skin him if he lost his license because he was thinking from the wrong part of his anatomy.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 12, 2005, at 13:36:44
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 8:35:43
I need to know my deadline for getting caught up in my reading!
gg
Posted by daisym on July 12, 2005, at 17:02:34
In reply to In Session thread: When is D. Lott coming?, posted by gardenergirl on July 12, 2005, at 13:36:44
Goosebumps...I was going to post that!
Great Minds...:)
Posted by pegasus on July 12, 2005, at 21:09:17
In reply to Chapter 6: Gaslighting, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2005, at 21:47:08
Hey, I have about 15 baby-less minutes to post everything I've wanted to post over the past 2 weeks!
The whole gaslighting issue made me think about something my boss said the other day. We were talking about people being terminated from their jobs (notice the unfortunate cooincidence in language between therapy and employment). He said that when people were terminated, there was always ample warning to them about whatever the problem was. Then he said that even so, often they're under the delusion that they weren't warned, and weren't doing anything wrong. So, then we all started wondering whether *we* were delusional about being good employees. Or was he just gaslighting the terminated people, to hide the fact that they were fired because he just didn't like them? Or maybe *he's* delusional about whether they were amply warned.
Anyway, my point is that this type of thing can happen in other places in life, too. But I think it's more nasty in therapy than in most others. Because it's about our general perception of reality, which is a pretty big thing to be delusional about.
Um, so, I guess that's all I have to say about gaslighting. I look forward to continuing this thread, even when I have trouble posting.
Peg
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2005, at 22:22:45
In reply to In Session thread: When is D. Lott coming?, posted by gardenergirl on July 12, 2005, at 13:36:44
Posted by daisym on July 13, 2005, at 0:27:32
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting, posted by pegasus on July 12, 2005, at 21:09:17
I was talking to a friend tonight who is a psychologist. She checks on me every so often, though I really think she is checking on my therapist. :) I told her that it frightened me that I can't seem to stay with the "real" work...that my therapy itself often becomes the topic of discussion. And i worry that my therapist will get bored. I told her about some of the bad terminations we've heard about here. It was her opinion that bad terminations and gaslighting occur when therapist have their ego invested in the work and when the only validation of their work comes directly from clients. She said the part they leave out of therapy training is how to accept that some clients won't make progress, despite your best efforts. But they might need you to help them simply stay in the same place, instead of getting worse. She also said it is hard to "take" a negative transference but if that is what the client needs, you, as the therapist, need to go down that road with the client. And wait and support and never abandon. It was interesting to hear her perspective. But she thought gaslighting clients about their progress is more common than you would think. Especially with managed care and 12-15 session rules.
I think I'm glad I'm not a therapist.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:52:18
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » pegasus, posted by daisym on July 13, 2005, at 0:27:32
> She said the part they leave out of therapy training is how to accept that some clients won't make progress, despite your best efforts. But they might need you to help them simply stay in the same place, instead of getting worse.
Amazing. That's the conclusion I came to with my therapist about five years ago. That therapy was justified if it just helped you maintain your current acceptable, if not ideal, level of functioning.
Oddly enough, I then felt free to improve. :)
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:53:46
In reply to Re: the plan is july 25 (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2005, at 22:22:45
Posted by alexandra_k on July 13, 2005, at 18:29:15
In reply to Perfect! I won't be leaving till the next week. (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:53:46
Are you coming back????
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 18:38:18
In reply to Re: Um. Where are you going???? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 13, 2005, at 18:29:15
Posted by alexandra_k on July 13, 2005, at 19:20:12
In reply to California for a week. (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 18:38:18
Cool.
I guess that means the beach.
Thats a funny thought... I don't think its possible to be more than about an hours drive away from a beach here in NZ. But I've heard its a little different in some other parts of the world ;-)
Hope you have a good time.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 19:31:54
In reply to Re: California for a week. » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 13, 2005, at 19:20:12
But sometimes I enjoy them.
Sometimes they are an ordeal.
Posted by pegasus on July 14, 2005, at 10:52:50
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » pegasus, posted by daisym on July 13, 2005, at 0:27:32
Wow, scary. Yet another big challenge to being a really good therapist.
Posted by sadmom on July 17, 2005, at 18:19:58
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » daisym, posted by pegasus on July 14, 2005, at 10:52:50
I don't remember what gaslighting is? Can someone briefly explain in a couple of sentences. I read the book and gave to my therapist to read, but she forgot to return.
Posted by crushedout on July 17, 2005, at 22:57:23
In reply to I never look forward to vacations. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 19:31:54
oh boy i can relate to that. i don't look forward to them either. i generally avoid taking them too. and people think i'm nuts
Posted by crushedout on July 17, 2005, at 22:59:44
In reply to Re: the plan is july 25 (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2005, at 22:22:45
when you say "coming" what do you mean??? is she going to be a guest expert or something?? sorry i should probably just read all the posts. but if someone wants to fill me in i'd be psyched.that is so cool.
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2005, at 0:06:52
In reply to holy sh*t she's really coming?, posted by crushedout on July 17, 2005, at 22:59:44
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 19:01:26
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting, posted by sadmom on July 17, 2005, at 18:19:58
Gaslighting comes from a Hitchcock movie where the husband arranged for the gaslights to be dimmed then denies that they are dimming when the wife notices it, as a part of a campaign to make her believe she's going crazy by denying her reality.
I guess it could apply in therapy, with some therapists anyway. Especially the ones who deny the reality of their part in any relationship, and tell the client everything is in their own mind, or transference.
(My therapist did that to one of my books. And I had offered to pay him to read it!)
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 19:06:02
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » sadmom, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 19:01:26
If I didn't know better, I'd say it wasn't coincidence that life conspired to put me behind on reading the book at this exact chapter.
But I was early for therapy, and had a chance to read it.
Hmmm... I wonder if that contributed to my anger today?
I dunno. I don't know if I want a *perfect* mother in my therapist. I think a good-enough one will do. He's gotten surprisingly comfortable with my discussions of his milky breast. grin.
I'm not altogether sure what I think about the conclusions of this chapter, partly because it bit too close to home.
Posted by fallsfall on July 19, 2005, at 21:27:42
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » sadmom, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 19:01:26
In honor of our discussion of this book I rented "Gaslight". It is an impressive movie. I recommend it.
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2005, at 17:29:23
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on July 19, 2005, at 21:27:42
I find Hitchcock a tad scary. Is this one of his less scary ones?
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2005, at 17:30:06
In reply to Chapter 7: Dreams of the Perfect Mother, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2005, at 19:06:02
Posted by fallsfall on July 20, 2005, at 17:54:43
In reply to Re: Chapter 6: Gaslighting » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2005, at 17:29:23
I watched it knowing that he was purposefully driving her crazy. It is scary in the sense that one person *can* literally drive another insane. I detached a bit by observing what he was doing to drive her crazy.
Nothing like Psycho or The Birds...
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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