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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 20:30:50
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » messadivoce, posted by Daisym on June 3, 2005, at 20:17:12
So how do you get over things? If I cannot change the way I feel, what is the point in going to therapy?
I thought therapy and all these was supposed to help you be able to control your feelings??
Posted by Jazzed on June 3, 2005, at 21:15:33
In reply to Trying to make peace and let go, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 15:36:56
Hi pinkeye,
I don't mean to trivialize what you're going through, but I'll let you know how I handle transference. I've had it with others, not my T because I don't have one, but other men. I find a man who's off limits, that I'm comfortable with being off limits, but that I find attractive, and I fantacize about him. I know that sounds weird, but what it does for me, is keeps me trying to improve myself. I exercise, try to look my best, etc.. as if I'm trying to impress him. It's hard to describe, but it works, and the best part is it improved my marriage emensely because I felt better and sexy, and wanted to be with my husband. Of course when I really did have transference, I had to get over that initial hurt, which took a few months, but in the meantime I worked on me.
I don't know if that would work for anyone else, but I'd never give it up because it keeps me motivated.Jazzy
Posted by Jazzed on June 3, 2005, at 21:20:34
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by Susan47 on June 3, 2005, at 17:44:16
> > So - once again, I am trying to make peace (for real this time) and let go of my ex T. Instead of trying to desperately hang on to him.
> >
> > He is a very good guy basically, and I think I liked him a lot for that. But the extra dependancy and attachment and intense abandonment issues are all probably transference from my issues with my dad.
> >
> > And my anxiety about my father and my intense longing for my dad and my abuse and conflicting relationship was probably what caused me so much of hurt and longing for my ex T.
> >
> > But now I have understood it, I should really try to let go of my ex T right? After all, he is married with a good wife and good family. I wouldn't want to try to hang on to him. And my husband is turning out to be a real decent person also. And I do like my husband more these days.
> >
> > So wouldn't it make sense for me to leave my dependancy on my ex T and instead try to focus and build a more rewarding relationship with my husband?
>
> I think you're already doing what makes sense, which is to work out your dependancy on your ex-Therapist. I think you have to find someone to help you work through this, again. You have to find another male therapist who affects you the way this one did. And you have to work it through this time. You have to tell this new therapist about this last experience, probably the sooner the better, so he has a chance to think about his approach. Or send you elsewhere. Because he should probably know as much as you do, about the problem, you know, as soon as possible.
>
> I never did shop around for a therapist, and I never turned back when I knew I was in trouble with the ex-T. I never wanted anyone else to help me. I wanted it to be me, through him. I was fortunate that he let it work that way.
> I was very lucky. I had a love lesson to learn, and I chose to love a person who let it be safe for me. And he helped me help myself, just by being quiet, accepting, and soft .. and he's so very beautiful, I was lucky. Because looks matter to me, that's one of my flaws, it's a terrible one because I'm not that attractive, not really.. you know, it took the most amazing experience for me to see myself the way others might. A combination of experiences, really, at the right times and the right places .. made me see that so much of the stuff in my life this last year has been gifted to me.
> This is pretty sappy stuff, really.
> The stuff of a good story, in any case, to my mind. Hah.
>
> Pinkeye, you're probably a very beautiful woman. I think you most likely are. I think you don't see your beauty and your power, your intelligence and the love you're capable of. I think you've been taught to keep your beauty under wraps, so to speak, because your loving ways might have been misconstrued by the wrong people in the wrong ways, and put you into danger. Your loving feelings being stronger toward your husband, that's a by-product, a lovely one, of the way you're maybe beginning to accept and love you. Sappy stuff, that's what life is sometimes, imo. I'm a pretty sappy person, I guess. I hope you get this worked through, Pinkeye, and keep talking about everything too ...Wow Susan,
That's incredibly powerful stuff! I sure hope all of us that have this issue are so fortunate to have a T that will be as caring and understanding as yours. Incredible. Why did you leave him?
I'm sure you're very beautiful too. I don't think many of us see ourselves accurately. It would be a gift. I find myself very unattractive to myself because I"m getting older, and that bums me out, so I try to be the best I can be. Next winter I'm having some plastic surgery - boob lift, but I'd love to have more, and my hubby says go for it. I have to wait til our youngest is older though, since he's just a toddler and needs to be picked up.
Jazzy
Posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 21:32:54
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » pinkeye, posted by Jazzed on June 3, 2005, at 21:15:33
:-) It is interesting to look at it from that perspective. :-)
For me it has been only painful. I think initially it helped me get better, but for a long time now it has only been hurting. Many Many days I wonder why I ever got into therapy in the first place. But I also know I gained a lot from it.
But nowadays I am increasingly feeling I am done with it. and I am getting bored. I think that is a good sign.
Posted by daisym on June 4, 2005, at 0:53:30
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Daisym, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 20:30:50
OK, I'll try to channel my therapist for you:
Therapy is a safe place to begin to understand yourself and find self acceptance. No one is all good or all bad. If we understand what drives us, what our fears are and what keeps us from being happy, we begin to see how to change things.
You can choose to be happy or you can choose to not be unhappy. There is a distinct difference. Attachment, deep intimacy, is what most human beings crave. When we can't find it, we still long for it. If you discover you have the ability to actually allow someone to listen to you and to really be intimate with you (not sexually!) then you learn that this really scary thing is a good thing, a necessary thing. And we want it to continue. It is essential that we learn to transfer this trust and this ability to be intimate to someone outside of therapy, someone who can trust and be intimate with us as well.
Therapy is the practice field. If you are lucky, you get to practice until you get proficient. It often takes a long time, so many people discover their need for intimacy without discovering how to get this need met IRL.
Can we rethink about therapy changing the way you feel into maybe helping you figure out how to get this need met? I believe the longing is the most painful part. I'm stuck right there right now. I have to trust that my therapist can help me through this into the next phase. I don't want to long to have him meet this need forever.
I know this didn't answer your question. But I think the answer lies in the process, in finishing the process. Otherwise we simpy force those feelings and longing back into a box, we keep choosing to not be unhappy, ovr and over again, but the feelings break free again and again. I hope your new therapist can help you stick with the process and come out on the other side, and choose to be happy. I hope the same thing for me.
Posted by Tamar on June 4, 2005, at 8:18:03
In reply to Trying to make peace and let go, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 15:36:56
Hi Pinkeye,
I know how that feels. Sometimes I would really like to let go of my former therapist. I can’t seem to do it by force of will, however. I don’t think it’s really possible for me yet.
I think the problem with transference is that (for me at least) I can’t seem to dismiss it. Yes, my feelings for my T were transference, but that transference had a purpose. It was partly to help me work through my feelings about particular people in my past, but also partly to help me address my sexuality in a safe space. So to try to get rid of the feelings about my former T and to dismiss those feelings as ‘just transference’ didn’t work for me. I just ended up feeling worse about my problems.
I pretty much decided that if I couldn’t stop thinking about him I would try to allow myself to enjoy it a little and analyze it a lot. I don’t know if that would work for you, but it’s working for me. I do find that fantasies just pop into my mind, and I try to use them to figure out how they relate to my relationships with men in real life. And I try not to feel too guilty about it! I guess it’s also necessary to accept that they are just fantasies and will never happen in real life.
I can identify with what you said about focusing on your relationship with your husband. I’m trying to do that too. So I suppose I’m trying to use my feelings for my ex-T to learn how to have a better relationship with my husband. I know that sounds a bit counter-intuitive, but feelings for therapists aren’t like real infidelity. They just help us make sense of our ways of being in relationships.
What do you think – can you find a place to feel the feelings for your ex-T with a little pleasure and not too much pain?
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:41:16
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » pinkeye, posted by Jazzed on June 3, 2005, at 21:15:33
I find a man who's off limits, that I'm comfortable with being off limits, but that I find attractive, and I fantacize about him. I know that sounds weird, but what it does for me, is keeps me trying to improve myself. I exercise, try to look my best, etc.. as if I'm trying to impress him. It's hard to describe, but it works, and the best part is it improved my marriage emensely because I felt better and sexy, and wanted to be with my husband. > I don't know if that would work for anyone else, but I'd never give it up because it keeps me motivated.
>
> Jazzy
>Hey Jazzy!
It worked for me and my marriage! lol I think my husband got laid more since I have been in therapy then before! lol He thinks it is because I am feeling better! Well maybe a little bit, but if he only knew !!! lol
Posted by pinkeye on June 4, 2005, at 13:45:09
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by daisym on June 4, 2005, at 0:53:30
I am beginning to wonder why my ex T never wrote like you guys write?? He knew how bad I felt... but he didn't help me with it.
I think he didn't know how to help. It would have really helped me if he understood more about transference and how to help these feelings. He always kept silent most of the times, and I think that is what he was taught. I really wish they would teach all these things in India. I think he didn't understand the seriousness of my feelings and problems. And he must have figured that terminating would help resolve the issue.
Posted by pinkeye on June 4, 2005, at 13:47:47
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 4, 2005, at 8:18:03
No.. I think I have passed that stage perhaps.. Most of the time these days it is only painful, and I end up crying. I don't think it is helpful anymore.
Posted by pinkeye on June 4, 2005, at 13:51:01
In reply to Why didn't my ex T help me with this? » daisym, posted by pinkeye on June 4, 2005, at 13:45:09
and terminating half way through only worsened it.. he must have thought time would help heal.. it doesn't for me. it only dulls it sometimes, but never really heals. I am going to go back one day to my ex T and teach him about transference. How does that sound? I will incorporate it in indian curriculum for psychiatrists.
Posted by Tamar on June 4, 2005, at 14:46:13
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on June 4, 2005, at 13:47:47
> No.. I think I have passed that stage perhaps.. Most of the time these days it is only painful, and I end up crying. I don't think it is helpful anymore.
Fair enough. Your situation was quite different from mine.
I'm sorry it's so very painful for you.
Posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 15:09:00
In reply to Trying to make peace and let go, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 15:36:56
Maybe if you put all that energy into your husband, your marriage will become stronger and you will get more out of it and be happier, so maybe you won't miss what you couldn't have anyways. Do you think if he said he liked you that it would even be more painful since you have no contact with him?
I think my T is great all around person and yes if the situation was different, he and I not married and not my therapist, I think we would be really good together(romantically). He is not a blank slate, I do know quite a lot about him as we have a lot of the same interests, but I have to give it up or else it will harm my marriage and therapy. I do think he likes me but he is very ethical and maybe that is why he is so great. Sad but true. I would love to have a relationship (friends) after therapy is over. I believe I can handle it, but it would be ultimitally up to him, and I am not holding my breath. So I am going to appreciate the good guy that I HAVE all to myself and make my marriage stronger. After 12 years, I am on the right track. :) I am glad you are seeing your husband in a better light. I hope you can get it together. So maybe when you are missing your T, you could try to do something for or with your husband instead. Try it and see if it helps! Good luck!
Posted by Susan47 on June 4, 2005, at 17:57:45
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 17:42:24
Well, now, I don't know. You can have many soulmates in life. Many. And you don't have to know them forever. They come and go. They do.
Posted by Susan47 on June 4, 2005, at 18:04:18
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on June 3, 2005, at 18:07:37
It's so funny, re-reading this thread, about the beautiful thing. Because I know physical beauty in the way we think about it, the model-perfect type of beauty, is really to me kind of un-attractive. I put the hyphen in there on purpose. Because, flawless perfection isn't real beauty, beauty when I say "a beautiful woman", the beauty comes from deep inside. You might have a hairy wart on the end of your nose, but that doesn't make you less beautiful .. You know, I think what matters to me more than anything, is men's beauty. It's quite stunning when a man is physically attractive to me, you know, and also.. intelligent, deep, and caring. So, that's how I saw my ex-T, and you know, it's lovely that I did, because I used to feel that gorgeous men were out of my league. Now, I see they can actually be nice people, they're not out of my league 'cause I'm also a nice people. So, I may have just worked out the beauty concept a bit more, in my own mind. Thanks for the opportunity, Pinkeye. I like my discussions with you.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 11:54:44
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 4, 2005, at 14:46:13
Thanks Tamar. I like your posts. You have a very nice way. It is interesting to read different personalities thrugh their style of writing. I get a feel for their real personalities just by the style of posts.
I think you are a very sensual, very intune with your emotions (especially sexual emotions), and have a somewhat matter of fact viewing of life. Little happy go lucky kind of person. Aren't you?
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:09:31
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 15:09:00
Thanks HappyFlower. I think that makes the most sense to do right now.
And my husband is a genuinely good person. I wouldn't want to only be half hearted way with him. I did that for the last 4 years, but now maybe I should really try to be full with him.
As far as my exT goes - I think I would never want to be with him or have an affair even if he says he likes me. If he likes me, I would be very happy and I think I would heal tons more, but I wouldn't want to have an affair or try to break his marriage or anything like that. And I think I really don't give that much importance to physical presence .. emotions matter more to me. It is only when I think he didn't like me that hurts the most - not that I cannot see him or be with him. I am fine with not seeing him again at all. Occasional emails and warm relationship would be just perfect.
In a funny way, that I myself don't understand, I actually feel very protective towards his wife - for some reason.(she has had some traumatic experiences in her life). I wouldn't want to break him away from her. I would not be able to live with myself.
And besides, I don't really think that we would have been perfect together - it might have been more or less the same as my current marriage - maybe somewhat better.
I think my ex T and I are very much alike in many ways.. but not necessarily good for each other kind - maybe we are too identical in some ways. (It could be my projection). He would be exactly me minus the emotional difficulties. I even suspect he had lots of emotional struggles himself. And he learnt how to keep himself happy and cheerful. I don't think he is a born happy person. I think he is very much like me - very emotional and highly sensitive, tries to be good and do good to others and be useful, tries to understand things and people, tries to learn. But I think he is not a very blissful person either. Some people are just happy no matter what - I don't think he is one of them. I am highly sure that he had atleat a mild troubling childhood and even adulthood. Somehow I just sense it. I might be completely wrong though.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:16:51
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by Susan47 on June 4, 2005, at 17:57:45
I think I read somewhere that a bunch of souls always hang out with each other. Somehow you keep meeting those souls birth after birth - in different ways - as father, mother, husband, friend, and other relationship. It is all unfinished business in the past life that bring us back again in different forms. And I think that said, there are many souls who form a group, and you can be with anyone from that group. In this life the person could be your husband, in the next life, same soul could be your child. I think that said that depending on our deep desires, we get the bodies and forms in the next life and relationships.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:22:00
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by Susan47 on June 4, 2005, at 18:04:18
I am glad you came to see yourself as a beautiful person Susan. I think it is high time you discovered it.
True.. physical beauty is not everything. Especially after 30 years, it tends to matter less and less to people, and both men and women start looking for something more solid inside.I saw a woman about 4 days back (about 45 years old), and I didn't even speak to her - just saw her talkign to someone, and I was stunned at her personality. I saw her only for a few minutes - but was stunned by her mannerisms. She was not outwardly beautiful at all.. she was very very poor looking according to the modern standards. But I was amazed at her. I am sure any man who met her would see that in her (if the guy is worthy at all). That is more important as you grow older. I think for you, you said you are already 47 - 48 right, hereafter you should aim for that kind of inner beauty rather than blaming your external apperances and thinking you are not beautiful.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 13:02:20
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:09:31
Actually I realized the hardest way saying goodbye.
How do you forget and move on? I have never been good in saying goodbye to anyone.. if they meant even a little bit to me. I have moved around a lot and left a lot of people (mostly when I moved), but I never intentionally say goodbye to anyone. How do you do it?
I realize I have to say goodbye to my ex T - I am not going to hear anymore from him, or I won't be writing again, and I won't see him ever again. It is very difficult to think like that that a person has just vanished into air - it almost feels like he died. How do you manage to say good byes to people?
Posted by Susan47 on June 5, 2005, at 13:25:01
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:09:31
You said that, in a funny way, you feel protective about your ex-T's wife, you don't really understand .. that must be a common thing that can happen, then, because that's exactly how I felt about her, that woman in his life .. but I actually saw her a few times, I don't know if you ever saw your ex-T's SO.
I always thought, from the first meeting, that she was a rather cool fish, and perhaps a bit sly. I wouldn't like her IRL, I can see that, but I can't really explain why. You know, when you meet people, sometimes you can't explain your first impression, because it feels like there's relatively little to go on. And sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong because maybe that person is going through stuff, you know. But she's a reserved one, but also kind of insecure, I can see that too, I don't know how much she really feels her own power, don't know the depth of her own fears. So yeah, I felt protective of her in that way when I was going through a really lustful space ..
There's something about her, too, that feels like my mother. Very very weird. In reality, she looks a lot like my mother did ten years ago, there's something really similar, hair colour, style, stuff like that, the way they dress. Maybe that's it, too. And I have to say I do feel sorry for the wife of any therapist. Or husband. Unless they're both therapists, that would be much better I think. Because then you've got a level playing field.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 13:31:05
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by Susan47 on June 5, 2005, at 13:25:01
:-) Mine is a different story.
I haven't seen my ex T 's wife, but I think she is a very nice person. I feel very sorry for her because of some tragedies in her life - not becuase of my ex T. It is a different story alltogether. I don't want to share more of it here.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 13:33:36
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 13:02:20
I am very angry at my ex T today - want to call him names.. how he could so cruelly terminate. That is the worst nightmare. Nobody has ever done that to me... I want to tell him he has been so very cruel to me, he has been a jerk. And I am so angry. I don't think I am going to trust anyone anymore in my life.. not any guy.
But I also know he was not responsibel.. That I feel bad becuase of my transference..
Posted by Susan47 on June 5, 2005, at 13:39:50
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:16:51
Sometimes I meet someone and although I've never met them before, it's like I "recognize" them. And they feel right. Their bodies, their personalities, their entire being, just makes mine resonate with some strange knowledge.
It's funny, you know, I don't believe in god in any way, shape or form, but somehow I have trouble explaining this resonance with another in any other way but attribution to the existence of something called soul or spirit, I don't know...
Posted by Susan47 on June 5, 2005, at 13:46:17
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 12:22:00
Yes, I know.. never felt I had anything real to offer anybody, but now I know I minimized myself because of the fear my ideas, expressions, mannerisms, were all too big. That doesn't matter so much, anymore. I try not to think too much about my face, my body.. it's all a letdown, really .. it's the soul that animates.
I don't remember if it was the Coroner at the time or someone from the police or ambulance, but statement was that Marilyn Monroe looked nothing at all like "herself" when they picked up the body. The physical beauty of the body, not just the face, had been transformed by her spirit. And that's true all the way through life, some people are just lucky to have it physically.. but I think maybe they have to work a bit harder to have it spiritually as well, that beauty, the inner beauty of humility at the awesome power of your intellect and your spirit. hmh.
Posted by pinkeye on June 5, 2005, at 14:10:22
In reply to Re: Trying to make peace and let go, posted by Susan47 on June 5, 2005, at 13:46:17
You know what I think Susan - the problem with you is that you have a very highly capable brain. And you think too much or rather ruminate (think about the same thing again and again and trying to figure out). I think you are lured into this kind of rumination becuase of the glimpses that you get when you do it. There are sometimes powerful connections you discover, and powerful insights you discover, and I think you are extremely attracted to these discoveries, so you keep doing the same thing again and again. You have almost developed it as an hobby now. And you spend all your time thinking like this and ruminating and pleasing yourself with your discoveries. But you probably also wonder why you are not happy and why you are not able to put it all together and make a meaningful and happy life inspite of knowing so much.
And I think sometimes, you are afraid of your own power and knowledge - and you think people won't be able to understand you, that you always know more than others. That nobody has the depth and complexity of mind to be able to understand you. And I think you think you have to figure it out all for yourself and discover the ultimate truth which will lead you to happiness.
I think there are lots of wrongs in your assumptions and that is why you end up going nowhere.
1. By thinking again and again and discovering these glimpses of connections and underlying truths, you will be able to understand life and make a most meaningful life out of it.
---That is not true. Nobody ends up being happy just because of their power to understand things and people and relationships and connections between things. So try to focus on other things, instead of this whirlwind and roller coaster ride of mental animation and ride thorugh the gallaxies (so to speak)2. Thinking that nobody is capable of undersatnding you. I believe you believe that very deeply about yourself. That nobody can navigate through the web you have woven and understand what is inside you.
----That is not true. You might be surprised at how much people are capable of understanding us. One person may not understand all of you, but you can get understanding from lots of different people, little bit here and there. Everybody understands one face of us.3. And somehow you think you are not beautiful because of all your understanding and seeing things which other people don't see.
---That is also not true. Other people have as much insight into things as you do, and people understand things far more than you imagine they do. So you are not alone. A proof would be to surf the web and read many people's blogs. You will discover universal amount of insight and knowledge in people. And I think you need to accept that you are powerful, and that you are capable of undersatnding stuff, and that you have to somehow find a way to direct your energies in the right path. Without that focus and direction, any amount of energy and intelligence and knowledge will be misguiding, and no matter how much you understand things, ultimately, you won't be able to put them to good use.For me, the direction and focus comes from two - three sources. One - God. Two - other good people around me. Three - a desire and commitemnt to be good irrepsecitve of anything that may happen in my life and what others do to me. This commitment is partially selfish - becuase I believe in after life, I want to have a good life in my next birth. So irrespecitve of what others do to me, or how much I suffer, I always have that commitment to be somehow good and see the good things in life. I fail manytimes, but I end up picking up myself and getting to the correct path again.
It might be a long stupid post, but I think if you think about it, you might gain some insights which will steer yourself in the right direction.
And I honestly think, without some form of spirituality, your energy is going to mislead you. It is ok for dumb people to not be spiritual - they don't have too much energy and it won't cause them any harm. But not for you. You have lots of energy and without that spirituality, it is like a 10000 Horsepower motor running empty and directionless.
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