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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 12:08:46
In reply to Pinkeye?, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 19:04:02
Dinah, I could be way off base here so please take this with a grain of salt. I say that because what you have written is so close to the bone that I would hate for you to take anything I write too seriously.
But I have lots of thoughts about it.
First of all, when we are children, we define love as it is given to us. If it is given to us as the back of a hand, we believe that's love, and continue, if unawakened, to love in the same manner, or to seek that sort of love.
That you liked being loved the way your parents loved you is like, duh, of course you did. You had no other choice, dear Dinah. It was that or the unknown. What might have happened if you had not participated in this family dynamic?
What was the abuse? How was this abusive? That's the painful part. You may have to figure that out, the "what might have been" stuff. How your life would be, how you would be, if you had had a childhood with parents who could have loved and supported you in the way children need to grow and flourish. You may have to decipher the affect it had on you. To do that, you might have to step out of the world they created, step out of the Dinah wonder child who takes care of everyone, and look around at what's left.
I have this image of the self - born as a thin strand running down the center of us. As we live, experience coats this thread, like wax on a candle dipped. Layer upon layer. Colour upon colour. I love this image. A non-sequitur - sorry.
Anyway, Dinah, is it possible your therapist sees something and is trying to awaken you to it? Is it possible this is the crux of things?
Hugs, Dinah.
ShortE
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 12:38:20
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 12:08:46
>
>
> I have this image of the self - born as a thin strand running down the center of us. As we live, experience coats this thread, like wax on a candle dipped. Layer upon layer. Colour upon colour. I love this image. >
Wow, this is good! I just might tell my T! :)
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 13:42:56
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » pinkeye, posted by whirlpool on May 6, 2005, at 8:57:17
thanks whirlpool. I am realizing more and more now how I must have taken lot more blame and took everything my dad said more serious than I should have taken. I even felt I was the one to be blamed for my father shouting at my mom all the time. And still now, I feel very guilty inside, somehow feel extremely guilty for everything. And I am atleast realizing it more now.. I some how always thought I am not good.. But now I am realzing maybe everyone is like me only.. especially this board also has helped me a lot to see through other people's emotions and minds.
And I was actually very self centered a while back. And I had all wrong ideas about life.. I actually thought it is pretty good to be very selfish, and self centered, and not needing anybody, and not relying on anyone for any help etc. that attitude actually had helped me in my professional career, but I think personally it caused a major wreck. But my ex T was good in that way, he kind of helped me see things in a different perspective. Before that, if anyone said they wanted to help anyone, I would think they are trying to cheat. Actually maybe my dad's philosophy was kind of responsible for that attitude - he used to actively discourage me from helping others in school. I used to be good in studies little bit, so they would always elect me as a class rep etc..or ask me to help other kids with studies.. but he always used to discourage any participation in school or helping other kids...only now I am realing how mistaken about life my dad had been and how I had taken everything he said so seriously.
It is actually pretty phenomenal how much I sacrificed to satisfy my father. When I first came to the US, I was all alone, and I didn't have many colleagues and all of them were men and I didn't have anyone. And I was extremely lonely. and my rheumatoid arthritis (I have a form of arthritis - like intense pain and stiffness in joints) kind of aggravated a lot because of the stress. I wouldn't be able to even get out of bed, or walk to the bathroom, or brush, or comb my hair, or even eat with my hands. I kind of silently took everything, without telling even my best friend at that time about it - because my dad didn't want me to tell anyone about my disease. Now I am realizing how much stupid I have been.. it feels like such a waste of life now. And actually that kind of attitude made me take out everything on my husband when I initially met him. He wanted to go back to my country, and I just couldn't bear the thought of betraying my father.. and I kind of took everything on my husband.
Perhaps that is why, I never had very close friends..maybe because I always felt guilty and unlovable.. maybe that is why I had nightmares about my ex therapist even.. I used to have actual nightmares.. dreamt that he sends me a mail one day saying that he never liked me, that he always hated me, and didn't want me to write anymore to him etc etc.. I think I am beginning to understand a lot of things now.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 13:44:23
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » Shortelise, posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 12:38:20
hmm.. maybe now you brought it up, a thought came to my mind.. just as experience coats the thread with layers, maybe it is possible to melt it away and recoat with good ones ?? just a thought. I liked the idea about layers built by experiences.
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2005, at 13:44:30
In reply to Pinkeye?, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 19:04:02
I don't think liking something takes it out of the realm of abuse, but I can understand not wanting to have it characterized as such, anyway.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 14:07:33
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:10:05
Dinah,
I think I got carried away telling my own story and hijacking this thread. Sorry about that.I think you should atleast start doing what I have been doing.. write here on this board.. what went on between you and your father.. write as much as possible, and I think that might be a start.
You are right about abuse. I don't think me or you can ever think of our dads as having abused us.. whether emotionally or sexually. But maybe you can just realize that what he did was a horrible mistake. Maybe that will help, instead of trying to make him an abuser and see yourself as a victim. Just maybe you can atleast acknowledge that he did a huge mistake with you. Does that sound possible? Or you don't even think he made a mistake?
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 14:49:03
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 14:07:33
Of course you didn't hijack my thread. I rarely think of any thread as being about *my* issue. I usually think of it as being about *an* issue that any number of people might share, and I'm happy to see it discussed fully from all points of view. A lot of times it sparks ideas in myself.
I've picked up a book on this topic from Barnes and Noble, and I'm going to sit down and read it and cogitate. But I *know* I'll never be able to think of it as anything remotely resembling abuse. I can possibly imagine thinking of it as something that has an effect on my relationships and life today. But nothing worse than that.
I've always felt that emotional incest was something that applied a lot more to my mother and me. When I was little she used to tell me what I wanted, and no amount of differing input from me would sway her.
I hate scouting./"You love girl scouts so much!" (Mother loved being a scout leader)
Every night she'd have me pray for the little brother or sister she told everyone I so desperately wanted. But that I really had no thought of wanting.
It continues to this day. The first time she bought me something from the stout old lady's shop, I burst into tears. Now, every holiday, that's what I'll get. In a size two times larger than the size I actually wear. Sometimes in petite size (I'm not petite in height). Because she likes this shop and they make her feel special. So regardless of any input from me, she is convinced I am delighted with these polyester old lady shirts two sizes too big and too short in the sleeves. I figure someone at Goodwill will find them to their taste. Like a donation in my name or something.
My mother looks at me and sees a daughter of her own creation. But then her reality testing is generally poor. She also did that to Daddy all the time.
Even though those behaviors are not physical abuse, I would be able to believe that those behaviors are abusive.
Especially after her behavior when Daddy was dying. That was so clearly monumentally selfish and abusive neglect that it isn't that hard to look back and see traces of that sort of behavior my entire life.
But Daddy? I can't see it that way. Not to me anyway. He was plenty emotionally abusive to my mother and brother.
Well, maybe after my son was born. I didn't have as much time to spend with him, and he'd make a lot of comments then that weren't so nice.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 18:18:30
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 14:49:03
That was pretty funny - about the dress :-)
Thanks for the understanding Dinah. Many times when I write about what I went through, it is because that is the only way I know how to help. I guess that is applicable for almost all of us here. And just hoping that the other person will pick up some insight from the story.
Well, I am going to do more of my rambling.. but the point is, even though it might have appeared that your mother was the one who was bad, maybe she was just reacting to your father. Maybe she just couldn't handle it herself, and was taking it out on you. Is that possible?
From here, my rambling starts. I am just venting out.. feel free to ignore from here onwards :-)
For a long time, I was actually angry at my mom. Much much more than I was angry at my dad. I wouldn't even talk to my mom many times, and till today, actually I have problem trying to connect well with her. I used to think she was very stupid - that she was always complaining of some illness or the other, and she was refusing to cooperate with my father and he is shouting at her and me, and I thought I inherited all my negativity in life from her.But only now I realize that she had just been coping up with the hard time my dad was giving boht of us in the same way as I am - only in a different way. She also had a tendency to take it all on her body, and she would complain every day of some illness or the other. I used to hate that at that time, and my dad used to hate her for that also. He kept saying that she was being manipulative, and many times he outright refused to show any empathy for her - even when she was suffering from pain. To top it all, he was a doctor. And he was being the least empathetic towards my mom. And he somehow made me believe that he is being the victim, and my mom being the bad one in the family - for some time I believed it a lot, and wouldn't even talk to my mom.
Now I realize that my mom was just trying to get some affection and understanding from my dad - and little bit of empathy and her pain was all her psychological pleading for some help. My dad was outright severely rude to my mom. From day 1 as long as I can remember, he used to shout at her so much.. Every day, several several times, he would be angry with her and mad at her. I used to shudder with fear lot of times, and I used to actually hate to come home. I never thought of my home as my home. And several days, I used to cry in the bathroom alone, and I never understood why at that time. I used to think I was being stupid.
Anyway, my dad was not at all a responsible person. And my mom, was much more normal than what he was. According to indian standards, she was a very good wife. She was beautiful, was very affectionate, came from a rich family with lot of social status, and was very soft. My dad - made a bad person out of her. And all for nothing. He was kind of rebellious, and had several ideas which were different from what everyone else believed in. He was an atheist, and he wanted to come to the Western countries, and he wanted to bring me up in a completely different way, and had really lot more different ideas than what was normal at that time in my culture. And I think my mother just became shocked to deal with all these new things after marriage, and she didn't understand all these high fi ideas about philosophy and stuff.
He could have just let her be a simple house wife.. instead he tried to make her well read, make her a career woman, make her understand business and start some business, etc etc. He was thinking he was trying to teach her to be good, but he actually made her feel very scared, because she didn't want to be all these. She wanted to just cook and stay at home.And he kept forcing her to be more than what she was.
Anyway, she completely resisted it, and he somehow tried to convince me that she was bad. And for a long time I believed it. Even now he complains about my mom. But now, I understand what my dad did was horrible. To take a person who grew up in a different way, and try to mold the person in a complete different way.And especially because, what my dad claimed to do, he was not doing himself. He was given lot of inheritance. He wasted it all by investing in stock market. He gave up praciticing as a medical doctor. He didn't do any work, and was sitting idle at home all the time, talking about philosophy and politics, and whiling away his time. And getting angry at my mom and shouting at her for not earning money for the family. He even used to ask her to get more money from her parents house, because her father was rich. He was given a huge inheritance himself - my paternal grandfather was extremely wealthy at that time, and he squandered away all the money, but he used to say my maternal grandfather cheated my mom.. which was not even a custom at that time.
Anyway, the only good thing he did was to give me intelligence. Somehow in all these ideas he had, he wanted to bring me up in a different way, so he made me study well. And to achieve stuff which he couldn't achieve himself. In a way it has turned out to be good for me. Even though I ended up suffering, I learnt stuff. And now I am able to understand everything. That was all thanks to my dad. And he meant well.. and didn't understand what he was putting my mom through. He simply had no clue how to bring a family, and he should have atleast understood that he doesn't have a clue and left it to my mom or listened to others. But he thought he knew everything. And made a mess out of it. He meant well, and that is the only thing that I keep giving him excuses for. And also he has tried to understand and change a lot in the past 10 years - ever since he lost his inheritance, he became more humble, and started understanding himself that maybe he was not all right. And once I got my rheumatoid arthritis, that was a blow to him. So he has mellowed down a lot more. And in the past two - three years, he understood how much psychologically I was affected. So now he has completely changed - atleast as much a 58 year old man is capable of changing. And I give him credit for that. If my dad had continued the way he was before I got my rheumatoid arthrits, I would have commited suicide long back. I am surprised my mom survived all that.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 18:45:55
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 18:18:30
Pinkeye, that sounds awful. I'm so sorry you had to grow up that way. And I'm so glad you're starting to see the connections now so that your kids will benefit.
I think our positions are a lot different with our mothers. I think a lot of people would objectively say that your father had problems. They would objectively say that my father had problems. There's no way to avoid the fact that he was an alchoholic, even if he didn't get drunk. There's no way to avoid the fact that he said the most horrible things to my brother that I was always grateful that my brother was as nice as he was or there could have been something very ugly happening, and I'm not sure I would have blamed my brother. And he said things like that to my mother as well. That she was worthless, that he hated her so much he wished he could kill her.
He tried to leave her once. But leaving her would have meant leaving us with her alone. And I begged and pleaded and he decided to stay because of that. Because he loved me, and because he didn't think my mother should be our single parent. They'd have probably broken up when I was a baby if it weren't for me. They separated for a year, and even my mother admits they got back together because they both loved me. Daddy had to live with my mother for close to fifty years because he loved me.
The difference is that most people who meet my mother would objectively describe her in horrible terms. One friend, after spending a night at my house that by my standards was a perfectly ok night, whispered to me "Your mother is really awful. I'm so sorry." My husband liked my father ok, not really well, but ok. But he avoids my mother as much as he can and makes no pretense of liking her - even to her face. I spent a lifetime watching people edge away from her as she intruded into their personal space. I had people her age - her peers - ask me to do something about her because she was annoying them and they couldn't get her to stop. When she had that red faced screaming fit about not having the hospital bed that my father needed in HER house in front of the social worker, the social worker worked overtime to get Daddy into the hospice and away from her. When my therapist heard what happened, he totally turned against her, and now seems to think all Daddy's problems were a result of living with her. Which I think was a bit extreme. Daddy was a difficult person too.
I can't tell you the number of times her gossiping, her poor grasp of reality if it didn't tally with her idea of what it should be, and her temper resulted in some unpleasant social situations for me. She pretty much drove me out of the hobby I engaged in for many years by getting politically involved in factions when she also got involved in the hobby.
So objective people would think your mother was a nice person, right? But I've spent a lifetime of hearing that my mother was horrible from nearly every objective person she comes in contact with.
That being said, she does have her finer points. She taught me everything I know about being a good person who cares for others. And she really does put herself out for people that other people ignore or belittle, like elderly relatives or kids with problems. She loves really little kids and is great with them.
And sometime she'll say something really vulnerable that reawakens some long killed positive feelings towards her. Like once she said wistfully that people didn't like her, and she knew it. I think we were talking about looks at the time...
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:02:17
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 18:45:55
Oh I see. So maybe your mother had real problems too. Maybe then in your case it was more of an equal problem between both your parents. That must have been hard to digest..
I feel sorry for you.. I know your dad has passed away, and I wish he was alive now so you can try to get some apology from him. Maybe you should try to get it from your mom.
I have gotten apology from my dad about lot of stuff 2 - 3 years back. That has helped me immensely in forgiving him. I haven't talked to him about making me like a surrogate wife (a term my new T came up with - I don't like it one bit). I haven't talked to him about being excessively physically close to me and emotionally making me like his companion. But the rest of the stuff, I have gotten apology from my dad. So that makes it so much easier to forgive and heal. I wish you had gotten that from your dad.
Anyway, all said and done, I really don't have any bitterness towards my parents. Not even a little bit. Even all this venting out, I am doing it because my new T wants me to do it. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be doing it. I realize that both of them - given whatever mistakes they did, at the end of the day had been very good persons at heart. They both meant well, and love me and cherish me. And they mean the world to me, really. I don't have anyone else after them.. no brothers, sisters. I am close to couple of my cousins, and I have my husband, but nobody to claim fully mine beyond them. And I really don't have any anger.. maybe I have bottled it up inside me, but I feel that is ok. It can stay inside me, and hurt me, but I am not going to take it out on my father. I don't have anyone else.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:16:56
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:02:17
Besides, I think I took a lot of stuff more personally than I had to - because I was an only kid. If I had a sibling, I would have been able to be just fine. I would have learnt much early on, that it was not my mistake that my parents didn't get along, that it was not my mistake that my father came to rely upon me. And I would have had someone else to cry with - instead of having to do it all alone inside the bathrooms :-).
But anyway, understanding all these things with my logical mind is far from being able to be emotionally healed. I wonder when I will be able to be emotionally healed. But atleast this is first step.
Logical wisdom and strength doesn't seem to be enough at all.. even logical insights about emotions is only half way. Real emotional healing is what makes people really happy. I wonder if there is a shortcut to direct emotional healing.. instead of going through this ciruitous route of reading -> information -> processing -> knowledge -> putting it all together -> logical wisdom -> understand it is not enough -> reading about emotions -> getting emotional insights -> gathering emotional wisdom -> emotional healing and happiness. There must be a way to short circuit it.. maybe movies are the way or hypnosis. (I think I am getting too much into my computer science logic. :-))
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:24:55
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:16:56
There I think.. I just got the answer. Movies - and perhaps songs.. I think they are a wonderful wonderful tool for direct emotional healing. I think our emotions are based on pictures.. not words.
I am going to see lot of movies - good family movies. lot of positive family stuff like "Sound of music".. Good thing about Indian movies is there are lot of family themes instead of this usually non family oriented western movies. Anybody has seen indian movies? I think they are a wonderful cure for emotional trauma - especially related to family problems. Any body agrees?
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 19:32:38
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:16:56
That's a wonderful realization to make, Pinkeye. That you weren't to blame. And of course, you really weren't.
My therapist is always telling me I just didn't have as much power as I thought I did. That a child just doesn't have that much power over what a parent does. But while I personally might not have forced them to stay together (at least not the time I was an infant), my existance almost certainly did.
I never needed an apology from my father for my life in general. Towards the end of his life when he got angry and said hurtful things to me, he apologized at the time. But for my life in general? No, absolutely not. I'm just glad I got a chance to thank him for all he did for me, and to tell him how much I loved him, and that he not only heard but reflected back to me that he did in fact know how much I loved him and how grateful I was to him.
I'm not saying living with him was easy, because it wasn't. But he didn't need to apologize to me. I had forgiven and understood long since.
I'm relatively certain that an apology from my mother would mean nothing to me, unless accompanied by a change in her actions.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:35:02
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:24:55
And one day, perhaps, we all can take a good movie about a therapy relationship. How the patient heals, and understands and copes up with transference, and most especially, terminates well. And both the patient and the T lives happily ever after.
This board and the movie will become a mandatory training for all therapists. Otherwise, they will fail their finals and never become therapists :-)
Oh.. please ignore me. I am just self talking.. Is Dr. Bob going to block me? I haven't done even a little bit of work today - and they will fire me if I proceed in this way. Pinkeye - shut up and get back to work. I am actually in a good mood.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 19:38:55
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:35:02
Ok, as long as there is one character who continues therapy until she is lucky enough to predecease her therapist and husband.
Termination may teach some important lessons.
But not everyone needs to learn all lessons.
Now back to work with ye.
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:48:07
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 19:38:55
Skip the last part of the movie :-).. I think you cannot even bear to watch it.
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 20:54:55
In reply to Re: Pinkeye? (very long) Dinah » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 19:24:55
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 20:59:31
In reply to Love Sound of Music! (nm), posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 20:54:55
Want to be like her. I don't actually care about anything else.. And I have never seen a movie where there is so much of joy in a person and where it had been portrayed so well.
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:00:21
In reply to Pinkeye?, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 19:04:02
Isn't there a new movie out about therapy? I thought I heard about something, but maybe I was daydreaming. ( at least it wasn't about t) lol
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:03:12
In reply to new therapy movie?, posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:00:21
No need for therapy when you can watch such movies.
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:09:58
In reply to Forget about therapy movie. Sound of music will do » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:03:12
These are my a few of my favorite things! lol
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:15:02
In reply to Raindrops on roses and whiskers on T's,, posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:09:58
Why pollute such a happy movie with a T in it? In worlds like the world of Sound of Music, there should be no need for Ts.. Everyone will be happy and who will have time for a T?
Posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:17:51
In reply to Oh No.. How about no Ts for a change? » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:15:02
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:19:57
In reply to Oh No.. How about no Ts for a change? » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 6, 2005, at 21:15:02
Sorry I am in a nutty kind of mood tonight, sorry to ruin your non t movie. I am crazy tonight. :)
Posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:21:59
In reply to Re: Oh No.. How about no Ts for a change?, posted by happyflower on May 6, 2005, at 21:19:57
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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