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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 18:21:36
I know I'm not one of many to my therapist. I'm the one and only Dinah. Special down to my toes.
I imagine that's true of long term therapy relationships in general.
It's hard for me to comprehend friendship being better than therapy.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 19:37:49
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 18:21:36
I think it is true.. The thing that hurts the most is the fact that your T does not want to know you after the termination. That is the hardest part - more than the fact that you could not be friends, is the fact that your T doesn't want it that is hard to digest.
In many cases, it is not really about money. My ex T didn't charge me for any of the services. So I know it is not about money. Maybe it has to do with interest.
Posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 20:21:40
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
I'm sure you're special to everyone in your life, Dinah, not just your T . :)
I think friendship isn't necessarily better, as long as you have good boundaries, which you def. seem to have with your T. I've never heard you express sexual/romantic feelings for him, and you seem very clear about expectations on both ends. So for you it seems that the relationship is very healthy and solid, and you like it the way it is.
It seems that some people have a much harder time setting up those kind of groundrules in their mind. I know a lot of people really seem to desire a closer relationship with the T, maybe the kind where they get to offer advice/support in kind, get and are are given affection, and share the kind of emotional bond that seems to come with friendship. Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
take care,
jenStar
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 20:32:03
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 4, 2005, at 20:21:40
> Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
Ahhhh. Ok, that I understand. I guess I assume it's because he's so darned delighted to be my therapist (wink) that he couldn't bear to leave that behind. :)
>
> I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
>
> take care,
> jenStarThanks JenStar. I've always thought it works so well precisely because I have no further desires from him. So I do understand that.
I suppose I'm a bit hampered by the fact that I'm very skilled at wanting what's possible to have, and pretty much never noticing if on the odd chance I actually want something more.
Posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:14
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ?, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 12:22:35
Yes, Happyflower - I was talking to you. I did remember correctly that you had written about a strong sexual attraction to your T, and wondered how it would translate into friendship. I have found that mutual sexual attraction to men outside my marriage, esp. the men in couples my husband and I frequent socially, has meant Trouble.
But as you say, you've moved on. It would be great to live in a small town where seeing my T out and about, talking about the weather, watching his children grow, etc. was a part of things. I would like that, I think. But I don't think I could be friends with him, nor could my husband. But long term therapy is different. I could probably be friends or at least socialize with the woman I did art therapy with for six months.
Not so weel today so can't read what everyone else has written but will do so later.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:39
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
good point, DInah
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 20:57:30
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 20:41:14
I guess I don't get away with anything here! lol There is still some attraction going on at both ends, but I truely believe they won't amount into anything. Maybe a friendship wouldn't be a good idea then. I guess I need to get out and meet some friends before I end therapy so I won't feel the loss so much.
Is short term therapy different than long term? I have only had about 12 sessions and he says I should be done in a couple of months, is that considered short term?
I guess if friendship isn't in the cards, I will be here with everyone trying to get over the loss.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:02:43
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » Shortelise, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 20:57:30
I like your easy going attitude Happyflower. I remember you having a very bad childhood. Inspite of that you have grown to be so humorous. :-)
I like it.
Pinkeye.
Posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:36:15
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 20:32:03
It could work the other way also... Ah he knows so much about me, and he knows all the ugly details about my life, that he must truly hate me. Nobody could like me after knowing me fully. I think it depends on how you perceive yourself.
I have felt both ways many times.
> > Maybe it's because it's hard to "get" that someone who sees the "real us" isn't magnetically drawn to us; doesn't go crazy trying to find a way to be with us all the time. After all, if we're so great (which we're learning to feel about ourselves), why isn't the T breaking down doors to be our friend? Anyway, that's the way it would go in MY mind, I think!
>
> Ahhhh. Ok, that I understand. I guess I assume it's because he's so darned delighted to be my therapist (wink) that he couldn't bear to leave that behind. :)
>
> >
> > I admire the kind of relationship you have with your T. I think it's really a good role-model of what the healthy client/T relationship looks like!
> >
> > take care,
> > jenStar
>
> Thanks JenStar. I've always thought it works so well precisely because I have no further desires from him. So I do understand that.
>
> I suppose I'm a bit hampered by the fact that I'm very skilled at wanting what's possible to have, and pretty much never noticing if on the odd chance I actually want something more.
>
>
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:19:37
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:36:15
> It could work the other way also... Ah he knows so much about me, and he knows all the ugly details about my life, that he must truly hate me. Nobody could like me after knowing me fully. I think it depends on how you perceive yourself.
>
> >
You know we talked about this a little bit during our last session. I was talking about how shameful I felt of my family growing up. And thats one of the reasons I didn't tell anyone about my mothers abuse. Even during adulthood, most people do look at you weird if you were abused. It is like they think something must be wrong with you or something. My T asked me if I thought he thought that about me. I said no, because he was a T and wasn't supposed to think that. He said well what if I was something else. I don't know what he was getting at because I ran off on another tangent.
Posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:20:57
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 4, 2005, at 21:02:43
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:08:40
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by happyflower on May 4, 2005, at 22:19:37
You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
Posted by happyflower on May 5, 2005, at 7:55:07
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 3:08:40
> You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
What do you think it is all about? :)
Posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
In reply to Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 18:36:06
Is friendship supposed to be better? I was wondering the same thing.
Also, does anyone else feel like being friends with their T is the last thing that they would want. Right now just the thought of running into my T somewhere, much less with wife and kids in tow gives me horrors. Maybe that's unique to clients of long term, analytic therapy or maybe just unique to me.
Now as far as contact after termination is concerned, that's another story. I fully expect to be able to contact my T, even come in for a check up session on a periodic basis or if a crisis occurs after termination. But at this point (3 years into the process) neither one of us has even breathed a word about termination (quitting yes, but "we've completed our work together" terminating, no). In fact, most of the time he's reminding me that this process takes years.
Posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
ANother good point. No, I wouldn't want to be friends with my T. We're not friends, he's not my friend, he's my therapist, he's my psychiatrist. It's kind of like wondering if I would want my gastro-enterologist as my friend, y'know, the guy who did the big look up my bum with the good drugs and the camera? Like, hey, I really liked him, he's a jolly, kind man, my age, intelligent, but, as we're sitting there at the dinner table is he thinking, wow, she shouldn't be eating that! I know JUST what's going to happen in her colon, and it's not going to be pretty, and I sure don't want to be around in a couple of hours for the smells it's going to generate. Woof!
Being "friends" with my T, impossible! He knows every twist and turn of my psyche, or thinks he does. I wouldn't want him at my dinner table, wouldn't want him near my friends, wouldn't want him getting drunk on champagne and letting slip anything one might let slip when one has a glass to many. He can let those things slip around his own friends, keep me out of it! And I need him invulnerable, strong, and safe. For later, maybe. Friends, I have some already. I'll keep my psychiatrist for psychiatry.
There would just be too much history. Our relationship is very intimate, takes place in a small room, between four walls, and my feelings of closeness to him are based on having his attention focussed on me entirely. I don't know how that could translate into the real world. I don't think it could, it's so outside of the real world. I prefer to write to him, to keep in touch with him with a phone call, a letter, but always professionally, never personally.
It would slay me if I had a therapist who cut me off, who sent me off into the sunset, and refused to keep in touch. That is cruel, unless I go off the deep end about him, and it's the only way to help me find some equilibrium.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:01:21
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:02:50
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by cricket on May 5, 2005, at 14:32:23
That's the way I feel too. I go to extraordinary lengths to avoid his seeing me outside the safe confines of his office.
Posted by pinkeye on May 5, 2005, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better?, posted by Shortelise on May 5, 2005, at 19:47:28
Yeah, I think no contact is the horrible part. Even friendship I can sacrifice.
Posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 0:26:59
In reply to ROFL. Exactly. (nm) » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2005, at 20:01:21
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 0:31:32
In reply to innards are innards, right? (nm) » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 6, 2005, at 0:26:59
Posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 2:26:50
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » Dinah, posted by happyflower on May 5, 2005, at 7:55:07
> > You ought to bring it up again. :) I suspect it's important.
>
> What do you think it is all about? :)If my experience is anything to go by, it's probably about transference. Not necessarily the erotic kind, but nevertheless probably transference.
And it does seem to be generally true that if things like this feel important they're good topics for discussion.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 2:46:03
In reply to Re: Is friendship supposed to be better? » happyflower, posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 2:26:50
let us know what her therapist thinks. :)
Posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 3:52:20
In reply to My guess was projection. Maybe Happyflower could, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 2:46:03
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2005, at 6:54:51
In reply to I'll defer to your greater knowledge! (nm) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 6, 2005, at 3:52:20
of my guess.
And I suppose I'm projecting in that guess. :)
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 19:54:29
In reply to Re: Is it really harmful to be friends with T ? » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on May 4, 2005, at 1:35:09
Yeah, and the point of termination actually is that you're terminating a therapy relationship. Period. It seems like some therapists think that way, in any case. It doesn't matter whether the client's ready or whether they've adequately hashed anything out, the therapist's ceiling level of comfort has been reached, he is unable to further grow or expand or deal with things, and it's bye-bye sweetheart you're on your own, here's a recommendation or whatever, just get the hell out of my face ...
I'm not bitter. :-]
To the original subject question on the thread, though, I think I was not thinking clearly before. Some writers can be very persuasive, until you take personal experience into account etc.
After some re-thinking I agree that a therapist shouldn't see a client as a friend, you know, I think Yalom crossed a line and justified his actions with the fact that nothing bad happened. Great, in hindsight, if that worked for him. But Lott brings up some good arguments in her book, against that, and I think ShortE brought them up too, before. A T and an ex-client could possibly be friends after that relationship's terminated, and maybe they could terminate a therapy relationship because they want to be friends, but it shouldn't be done concurrently. No way. And I don't know too many people who'd really be comfortable being friends with an ex-client. It would have to be pretty exceptional to work.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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