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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mair on January 17, 2005, at 11:21:15
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » mair, posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2005, at 10:58:03
I have a soon-to-be 17 year old daughter, so I'm not sure I can distinguish between high school dynamics and normal life since I'm exposed to those high school dynamics on a daily basis.
What I have noticed is that PB can generate for me a lot of the same sorts of feelings I recall from middle and high school - feeling invisible or not a part of a group, or wanting someone else's approval too much, or perceiving a slight where none was intended. I'm pretty sure these arise totally independently of anything anyone else is posting here so I think of them as my issues and not the result of high school type dynamics. And really those feelings probably pre-date those wonderful middle school years anyway.
Mair
Posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2005, at 13:46:02
In reply to High School Dynamics, posted by mair on January 17, 2005, at 11:21:15
That's a good description of what I meant. And yeah, it's definitely my own issue, but sometimes Babbler behavior triggers it. So I guess for the most part, it's not something that will change, but I can change my reaction to it. Or at least recognize what I'm feeling and where it might be coming from.
gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 14:52:58
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by gardenergirl on January 16, 2005, at 21:10:43
> I don't like it when it starts to feel like Jr. High or High school. Did that once. Don't want to go there again.
Yeah that's mine too I think, passive agressive comments, and barely hidden shots at other posters between posters. I'm also with Joslynn in that I hate info mercial type spiels that pop up every now and again on how "my cure" is good for everyone, it's so presumtuous, I mean how do they even know I want to BE like them-- maybe I don't even think they're better.. : )
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 14:54:36
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 14:52:58
Although I have to say, I think sometimes the strictness of the civilty rules sometimes encourages passive agressiveness.
Posted by mair on January 17, 2005, at 15:08:16
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 14:54:36
>" Although I have to say, I think sometimes the strictness of the civilty rules sometimes encourages passive agressiveness."
That's a really interesting observation, because I've noticed that some people are just way more adept at making remarks that have a way of putting someone else down than are others. Lots of times, the ones I'm thinking of are directed to the person who might be most offended.
Since Bob tends to take things so literally, there's nothing he can do about certain types of remarks which are not objectionable on face, but which may be intended to insult when taken in a certain context.
And as much as I bristle when I see this kind of post, it may not be up to me to question the intent to begin with. It's possible I'm reading way more into a post than I should be.Mair
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 15:58:28
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 14:52:58
I don't like when people make comments directly about me and or my posts and then act like it was just a group or others they were referring to when we know who and what thread they were referring to, as mine was the only one in many months...Like you said Gabbix.."passive-aggressive and barely hidden". It seems to me one could say I do not like to read about T boundary crossings and leave it at that....I do not presonally like a lot of the subject matters in here but as they MATTER to the poster I refrain from comment and judgement..But thats just me
> > I don't like it when it starts to feel like Jr. High or High school. Did that once. Don't want to go there again.
>
>
> Yeah that's mine too I think, passive agressive comments, and barely hidden shots at other posters between posters. I'm also with Joslynn in that I hate info mercial type spiels that pop up every now and again on how "my cure" is good for everyone, it's so presumtuous, I mean how do they even know I want to BE like them-- maybe I don't even think they're better.. : )
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 16:36:42
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 15:58:28
> I don't like when people make comments directly about me and or my posts and then act like it was just a group or others they were referring to when we know who and what thread they were referring to, as mine was the only one in many months...Like you said Gabbix.."passive-aggressive and barely hidden".
Yeah, ugggh, my mom used to do that and it drove me nuts, she'd always say, well you know "some people" live like this, or do this, and she'd criticize it, and it was obvious she was talking about me, but she wouldn't ever be direct about it. I really find directness is so much more respectful, and although I think it appears harsher to some, it's really liable to cause fewer hurt feelings.
If someone says to me "Gabbi I disagree with what you did or said and this is why.." I really appreciate it, either I'll agree to disagree, or I'll have a new way of looking at something, and I love that.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 16:38:00
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Gabbix2, posted by mair on January 17, 2005, at 15:08:16
it may not be up to me to question the intent to begin with. It's possible I'm reading way more into a post than I should be.
>
Hmmm, you're right there, darn, now I have more to think about. : (
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 16:51:25
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 16:36:42
I agree with you wholeheartedly, it's also not as if I do not know who said postive things on it all...But with some having ONCE said they do not approve I see no point in going on and on and telling me and every corner directly and indirectly and using my posts as examples . I hear you on your mom. It makes me feel very put down and silences me for what I would like to talk about yet I listen to them. One need not approve to allow others to speak. I am sure once your mom told you you knew and maybe didnt ever agree but knew what she meant...I had a discussion on this like a year ago. Directly now I seem to get the indirect. It's not like we are stupid Gabbix....
I don't like when people make comments directly about me and or my posts and then act like it was just a group or others they were referring to when we know who and what thread they were referring to, as mine was the only one in many months...Like you said Gabbix.."passive-aggressive and barely hidden".
>
> Yeah, ugggh, my mom used to do that and it drove me nuts, she'd always say, well you know "some people" live like this, or do this, and she'd criticize it, and it was obvious she was talking about me, but she wouldn't ever be direct about it. I really find directness is so much more respectful, and although I think it appears harsher to some, it's really liable to cause fewer hurt feelings.
> If someone says to me "Gabbi I disagree with what you did or said and this is why.." I really appreciate it, either I'll agree to disagree, or I'll have a new way of looking at something, and I love that.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 17:16:36
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Gabbix2, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 16:51:25
But with some having ONCE said they do not approve I see no point in going on and on and telling me and every corner directly and indirectly and using my posts as examples
I really do not understand that at all, if it were any other behaviour that people thought was potentially destructive, like rage or S.I or promiscuity or something that wouldn't happen, I don't think, or if it did it would be nipped in the bud pretty quickly.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 17:30:22
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Gabbix2 on January 17, 2005, at 17:16:36
I do not understand it myself Gabbix, I feel put down and singled out.
> But with some having ONCE said they do not approve I see no point in going on and on and telling me and every corner directly and indirectly and using my posts as examples
>
> I really do not understand that at all, if it were any other behaviour that people thought was potentially destructive, like rage or S.I or promiscuity or something that wouldn't happen, I don't think, or if it did it would be nipped in the bud pretty quickly.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2005, at 19:33:24
In reply to Re: Did that actually happen? » judy1, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2005, at 17:21:36
Posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:36:09
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Gabbix2, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 17, 2005, at 17:30:22
Fallen, I am not sure if you mean that you thought my posts made your felt put down or something else? I miss a lot of posts because I pop in and out during work. To clarify, when I was thinking of the boundary violations by Ts, it wasn't just one poster I recalled. It was you, plus TMP, who seems like such a sweet but vulnerable person whose T really took advantage of her, now her future has been permanently changed. And there was someone else, but now I don't remember. I thought there was a third person and I apologize if I don't remember this correctly.
Please understand, I don't think you or other victims of therapist abuse did anything wrong. It is the Ts who are in the wrong. And I think that other posters should not be afraid to say that, because there are lots of other people reading and lurking who may really be unsure about this subject. And when other posters say things that sound congratulatory, that could be really confusing for someone.
It's one of those gray areas. We all know driving recklessly, SI, etc is harmful to us, but to accept the romantic attention of a professional who knows your heart and mind....I can see how that could feel so good even if it ended up hurting someone in the long run.
This is going to be my last post on this board, because for one thing, I am obviously just making posters feel criticized and not Ts, and two, I really do need to stay off the internet at work because we are entering the busy period. So this seems like a good reason to stay off here. The last thing I meant was for the victims to feel blamed.
I do wish you luck. You have posted some nice things to me in the past and I never meant to make you feel hurt or criticized. I am sure I will not be able to resist lurking from time to time, but I will refrain from posting, so as not to hurt more feelings.
Posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:38:34
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:36:09
Posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 10:16:57
In reply to oops, above for Fallen (nm), posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:38:34
Also, if anyone else has felt singled out or hurt by what I have said, please read my post to Judy1, in response to Did that really happen? (the top of this thread) In that post, I tried to be honest and upfront about my own vulnerabilities and experiences that may have made me sound too intense or self-righteous about this. I really never meant to hurt people or make people feel like they were in junior high school. I have my own transference and projection which I tried to acknowledge, in life and on here. Obviously I did not do such a great job on here.
Well, now the fat lady really should sing, i.e., I should stop posting already, but I just realized that some people may not have read my post on top because I addressed it to Judy. Thanks for reading it.
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2005, at 10:24:54
In reply to and also please read my post to Judy, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 10:16:57
Joslynn,
While I respect the need to concentrate more at work, I hope you won't stop posting here altogether. I've found your posts interesting and helpful in the past and I would be sorry to lose you as a fellow Babbler.
Just my two cents,
crushedout
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 16:34:35
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:36:09
Thank you for the apology yes I do feel put down and hurt when I post and have anyone not just you per se post as well as post around and hint on me and my life. I do not see the same being done to others who have chosen to do things that others find unethical or immoral. So to me, we have had this converstaion in the past and it is done.I heard your view and that of others. I can only speak for me and not the other poster I do not know if she is happy or not. Myself I am NOT being taken advantage of in the least ...I am very strong and my T and I have as I told a poster in chat picked out a ring. He has filed for a divorce and I will be soon. Our plan is to marry in 2 years...BUT being a realist I know that could go either way....I could fall flat on my face. Please don't worry on me if I fall I will get back up... I am not that fragile...That is my call and the pain will be mine and his if there IS any...When someone slashes their arms up I do not nag lecture them or bring up old posts of theirs. I just want to be free to speak too and without being what I feel is smacked on the head for my issues NOT that YOU have smacked me on the head but sometimes things do go well with these relationships..NOT OFTEN...It IS rare VERY rare...I hope you stay but allow me my voice too...I do see posts from people who cut themselves and some who are cheating on a spouse, having pre marital sex, are suicidal..I do not feel the need to tell everyone to not do that it is bad and immoral and will hurt them..
Maybe Dr Bob could have a disclaimer on the top of this site stating the Moral and Ethical issues on this as it pertains to the APA so nobody....and I do not mean you ..but nobody has to feel the need to basically ask me not to be me and talk on me :( I let otheres be themeselves and I try to help then I work on me.
I really like you we have had nice talks in the past . I do not think MOST people should go with these crossings also but in some cases...it works and its not a victim situation.
In most cases it is.
Thank you
> Fallen, I am not sure if you mean that you thought my posts made your felt put down or something else? I miss a lot of posts because I pop in and out during work. To clarify, when I was thinking of the boundary violations by Ts, it wasn't just one poster I recalled. It was you, plus TMP, who seems like such a sweet but vulnerable person whose T really took advantage of her, now her future has been permanently changed. And there was someone else, but now I don't remember. I thought there was a third person and I apologize if I don't remember this correctly.
>
> Please understand, I don't think you or other victims of therapist abuse did anything wrong. It is the Ts who are in the wrong. And I think that other posters should not be afraid to say that, because there are lots of other people reading and lurking who may really be unsure about this subject. And when other posters say things that sound congratulatory, that could be really confusing for someone.
>
> It's one of those gray areas. We all know driving recklessly, SI, etc is harmful to us, but to accept the romantic attention of a professional who knows your heart and mind....I can see how that could feel so good even if it ended up hurting someone in the long run.
>
> This is going to be my last post on this board, because for one thing, I am obviously just making posters feel criticized and not Ts, and two, I really do need to stay off the internet at work because we are entering the busy period. So this seems like a good reason to stay off here. The last thing I meant was for the victims to feel blamed.
>
> I do wish you luck. You have posted some nice things to me in the past and I never meant to make you feel hurt or criticized. I am sure I will not be able to resist lurking from time to time, but I will refrain from posting, so as not to hurt more feelings.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 16:35:59
In reply to and also please read my post to Judy, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 10:16:57
I read it and I appreciate it ....
> Also, if anyone else has felt singled out or hurt by what I have said, please read my post to Judy1, in response to Did that really happen? (the top of this thread) In that post, I tried to be honest and upfront about my own vulnerabilities and experiences that may have made me sound too intense or self-righteous about this. I really never meant to hurt people or make people feel like they were in junior high school. I have my own transference and projection which I tried to acknowledge, in life and on here. Obviously I did not do such a great job on here.
>
> Well, now the fat lady really should sing, i.e., I should stop posting already, but I just realized that some people may not have read my post on top because I addressed it to Judy. Thanks for reading it.
>
>
>
>
Posted by Rigby on January 18, 2005, at 16:48:19
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Joslynn, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 16:34:35
Hey Fallen,
I haven't followed this entire thread and do not know probably as much as others re your situation but I do want to offer my support in terms of going with your heart. It takes tremendous courage! I've done a variety of "swimming upstream" kinda things and, although difficult at times (and I got a raft of judgement for them) I really felt I had no choice--I needed to go my own way. It *can* work out and I think it's very cool that this is happening for you!
Sorry for the barge, everyone! And really, this is not a comment on the content at all of this thread (especially since I didn't read much of it!)--just wanted to send this note to Fallen!
> Thank you for the apology yes I do feel put down and hurt when I post and have anyone not just you per se post as well as post around and hint on me and my life. I do not see the same being done to others who have chosen to do things that others find unethical or immoral. So to me, we have had this converstaion in the past and it is done.I heard your view and that of others. I can only speak for me and not the other poster I do not know if she is happy or not. Myself I am NOT being taken advantage of in the least ...I am very strong and my T and I have as I told a poster in chat picked out a ring. He has filed for a divorce and I will be soon. Our plan is to marry in 2 years...BUT being a realist I know that could go either way....I could fall flat on my face. Please don't worry on me if I fall I will get back up... I am not that fragile...That is my call and the pain will be mine and his if there IS any...When someone slashes their arms up I do not nag lecture them or bring up old posts of theirs. I just want to be free to speak too and without being what I feel is smacked on the head for my issues NOT that YOU have smacked me on the head but sometimes things do go well with these relationships..NOT OFTEN...It IS rare VERY rare...I hope you stay but allow me my voice too...I do see posts from people who cut themselves and some who are cheating on a spouse, having pre marital sex, are suicidal..I do not feel the need to tell everyone to not do that it is bad and immoral and will hurt them..
>
> Maybe Dr Bob could have a disclaimer on the top of this site stating the Moral and Ethical issues on this as it pertains to the APA so nobody....and I do not mean you ..but nobody has to feel the need to basically ask me not to be me and talk on me :( I let otheres be themeselves and I try to help then I work on me.
>
>
> I really like you we have had nice talks in the past . I do not think MOST people should go with these crossings also but in some cases...it works and its not a victim situation.
> In most cases it is.
> Thank you
> > Fallen, I am not sure if you mean that you thought my posts made your felt put down or something else? I miss a lot of posts because I pop in and out during work. To clarify, when I was thinking of the boundary violations by Ts, it wasn't just one poster I recalled. It was you, plus TMP, who seems like such a sweet but vulnerable person whose T really took advantage of her, now her future has been permanently changed. And there was someone else, but now I don't remember. I thought there was a third person and I apologize if I don't remember this correctly.
> >
> > Please understand, I don't think you or other victims of therapist abuse did anything wrong. It is the Ts who are in the wrong. And I think that other posters should not be afraid to say that, because there are lots of other people reading and lurking who may really be unsure about this subject. And when other posters say things that sound congratulatory, that could be really confusing for someone.
> >
> > It's one of those gray areas. We all know driving recklessly, SI, etc is harmful to us, but to accept the romantic attention of a professional who knows your heart and mind....I can see how that could feel so good even if it ended up hurting someone in the long run.
> >
> > This is going to be my last post on this board, because for one thing, I am obviously just making posters feel criticized and not Ts, and two, I really do need to stay off the internet at work because we are entering the busy period. So this seems like a good reason to stay off here. The last thing I meant was for the victims to feel blamed.
> >
> > I do wish you luck. You have posted some nice things to me in the past and I never meant to make you feel hurt or criticized. I am sure I will not be able to resist lurking from time to time, but I will refrain from posting, so as not to hurt more feelings.
>
>
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2005, at 18:06:01
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:36:09
Joslynn, take a work break if you need to. I certainly need to from time to time or I never get anything done!
But please don't leave. The truth is that it's nearly impossible to never ever make anyone feel criticized. You've made your position quite clear. I agree with it entirely. Therapists who sleep with their clients should be given some especially exquisite punishment. Not only are they betraying their professional ethics, their possible spouses, the clients they are sleeping with who nearly always end up in bad shape, but most importantly to me they are jeopardizing every single therapeutic relationship they have.
Every delicate soul out there who has tentatively put their trust in their therapist is likely to have their therapist disbarred and unlicensed and thus abandoning them and betraying their trust.
If my therapist EVER puts one little toe out of line on the sex with a client issue and EVER puts his license in jeopardy, and my relationship with him in jeopardy, because of sex, I swear I will join his wife in making his life a living h*ll and do my best to make sure his next life is no better.
Please don't leave. What you said is important. You weren't blaming a client. And it's NOT just one client on this board. It's happened way more than once.
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2005, at 18:13:23
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Joslynn, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 16:34:35
And Fallen?
I'm sorry if what I said makes you feel criticized. That isn't my intent. I am not intending on commenting on anything to do with you. Or any of the other people who have found themselves in your situation. Nor do I automatically think that you are in imminent danger or a delicate flower or anything like that.
But therapists have a sacred trust by virtue of their influence on so many lives. I can and will be extremely critical of therapists who betray that trust. Since the majority of licensing bodies are with me on that one, I'm not going to feel overly guilty about it. Even though there might be some personal issues underlying the intensity of my disapproval.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 18:14:14
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Rigby on January 18, 2005, at 16:48:19
Rigby THANK YOU I do not expect people for the most part to agree and they shouldn't IN MOST CASES but there are always exceptions. I am following my heart..I never thought of it that way but yes I am kind of happy minus being ill and it's nice to have someone else see ME in the stream not just what I am doing. I do not even post on it or talk in chat when I see folks who are against it....I end up feeling shunned and wish just to be treated like others and agree to disagree...That said.,...MEGA THANKS...I have had babblemails and one chat with a person who feel they cannnot say anything nice to me on the boards on this topic and its so cool to have someone happy for me...a realistic me :)
((( RIGBY)))> Hey Fallen,
>
> I haven't followed this entire thread and do not know probably as much as others re your situation but I do want to offer my support in terms of going with your heart. It takes tremendous courage! I've done a variety of "swimming upstream" kinda things and, although difficult at times (and I got a raft of judgement for them) I really felt I had no choice--I needed to go my own way. It *can* work out and I think it's very cool that this is happening for you!
>
> Sorry for the barge, everyone! And really, this is not a comment on the content at all of this thread (especially since I didn't read much of it!)--just wanted to send this note to Fallen!
>
> >
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2005, at 18:20:01
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Fallen4MyT, posted by Rigby on January 18, 2005, at 16:48:19
OK so you do know I have in the past received babblemails and emails from posters wishing for the same kind of relationship and I have gone out of my way to politely not give all the facts as NOT TO encourage them as I know in these cases it will not happen nor from what I saw would be a good idea with these people but I would be there for them should they want to ever talk feet on floor or face to it. I respect those who do not agree with me. They have a right to their opinions and feelings but so do I and if I post I got a gift it really would be nice to be able to get a reply on the boards and not have it talked about over here..That really doesn't help me. So for the record PLEASE do not do what I do. I can take 45mgs of Valium and walk and drive but I expect others cannot and I know they SHOULD NOT same thing applies here...Love you all
HUGS
Posted by gardenergirl on January 18, 2005, at 18:20:49
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons?, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2005, at 9:36:09
>I thought there was a third person and I apologize if I don't remember this correctly.
I think there was a poster named Jadah who had a similar experience, but was not currently involvd with her T. I could be remembering it wrong, though.
> > This is going to be my last post on this board, because for one thing, I am obviously just making posters feel criticized and not Ts, and two, I really do need to stay off the internet at work because we are entering the busy period.I just needed to comment here, because "making people feel" something is kind of a hot button phrase for me. We can't make people feel anything that they do not already have a smidgeon of inside. If there is nothing there, then indifference would be the response, not whatever we "made them feel". Does this make sense? It seems like you were posting your opinion on this issue, one that you are not unique in. Because it goes against Fallen's stated behavior, it may appear to be critical of her, but it really, IMO, is critical of the act, especially on the part of the T. I've never noticed you posting anything critical or mean about a poster. You seem to be good at separating behavior from the person. I like that about you. :)
Also, in your next post you stated : I really never meant to hurt people or make people feel like they were in junior high school.
I just wanted to reassure you that I was not thinking of you when I posted that about Jr. High. I'm beginning to regret saying that, cause I'm not prepared to offer more details. Best to keep it to myself.
Shoot, sometimes I think we ought to close this thread. It’s kind of loaded.
gg
Posted by mair on January 18, 2005, at 22:11:14
In reply to Re: What about PB pushes your buttons? » Joslynn, posted by gardenergirl on January 18, 2005, at 18:20:49
"I just wanted to reassure you that I was not thinking of you when I posted that about Jr. High. I'm beginning to regret saying that, cause I'm not prepared to offer more details. Best to keep it to myself. "
GG, I shouldn't have come back and asked you what you meant by that. It you had wanted to elaborate, you would have when you made the statement to begin with.
>
>" Shoot, sometimes I think we ought to close this thread. It’s kind of loaded."I started this thread, and I endorse the notion that it should be closed. I apologize. I didn't think of it as a potentially loaded topic; I wasn't trying to stir anything up. As it's turned out, alot of the responses have really surprised me because they were not necessarily what I had in mind at all when I asked the question. It's been very informative for me, but I don't think informative cuts it here, when it's not a more neutral issue.
I maybe should have anticipated this when I started this thread, but my instincts about what works here and what doesn't are appallingly off.
I, too, really hope that Joslyn stays.
Mair
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