![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Tabitha on December 22, 2004, at 1:56:50
In reply to Bringing PB into therapy, posted by Toph on December 21, 2004, at 19:53:14
I talk about PB and online "relationships" in therapy sometimes. My T is pretty good at treating it like any other relationships-- we talk about the dynamics, and what it's telling me about my issues, and how I react to others. We also talk about how at times internet can become an unhealthy thing for me-- addictive and a source of useless drama.
However, when I mentioned doing online socializing in group therapy, folks pretty much got stuck on the fact that it was online and therefore "not real", and I got into defending online socializing in general instead of whatever was the issue at hand, so I quit talking about it.
Fortunately my T is not online herself so I don't worry or think about her coming here.
Posted by Dinah on December 22, 2004, at 8:17:23
In reply to Bringing PB into therapy, posted by Toph on December 21, 2004, at 19:53:14
My therapist has promised never ever to come here no matter what. And I'd consider that if he ever did, he would have broken my trust in an unforgiveable way. Ditto for husband.
But Babble has frequently been the focus of whole sessions, even emergency calls and sessions. I was very emotionally invested here, and emotional investment is not something I was used to or good at.
By the way, he was, in general, very positive about my involvement in general with the exception of a few times when he ordered me not to come here, at least for a while. As positives, he thinks that any source of emotional engagement is good for someone like me. As negatives, he thinks that the internet is the perfect place for projection and transference. A bit screen so to speak.
Posted by Toph on December 22, 2004, at 9:50:03
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Toph, posted by Dinah on December 22, 2004, at 8:17:23
> As negatives, he thinks that the internet is the perfect place for projection and transference. A bit screen so to speak.
The projection and transference you describe as negative, by this do you mean that some posts or posters cause an association or reaction in you based on a past event or one or more of your interpersonal experiences? And is it negative because the PB poster may not understand this association and reaction in a detached, non-judgemental way as a therapist hopefully would?
-Toph
Posted by partlycloudy on December 22, 2004, at 10:50:13
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Toph, posted by Dinah on December 22, 2004, at 8:17:23
Dinah, you've spoken before about your emotional divorce from babble, and I actually envy you that. I should think it would give you the objectivity that a deputy needs to be non-judgemental and impartial. (This doesn't really belong on this thread but I wanted to mention it to you.)
I haven't talked to my new T about babble yet. I can definitely see when it's been a deterrent in my recovery in the sense that I get myself so heavily involved in situations over which I have no control - one of my worst habits if I say so myself. On the other hand, I have made so many friends here whom I would never have known if not for babble, so I find myself doing a little hokie pokey in how close I get.
I'm considering a trial separation from babble myself.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:51:53
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy, posted by Toph on December 22, 2004, at 9:50:03
Well, you know transference and projection are another couple of those psych terms that I consider the trigonometry of psych. I was fabulous at algebra, but could never quite grasp trig.
I think he meant negative in that I read bad things into circumstances here that weren't necessarily grounded in reality and that upset me excessively. I'm not sure how much they were grounded in my past experiences, but I suppose so since they were probably based on the way I view the world. It got a heck of a lot better over time, and it's been a while since he put me on Babble prohibition. It just took some getting used to.
My biggest remaining transference issue on Babble probably has to do with Dr. Bob. :) He's so enigmatic that it's easy to fill in the blanks with our own ideas about authority figures. Some people fill in the blanks with highly negative things and come up with conclusions that I don't think are warranted given the weight of evidence during Dr. Bob's sponsoring of Babble. Others, like me, fill in the blanks with highly positive fatherlike images that may be equally unwarranted. :) Then whenever I think Dr. Bob lets me down by not being as smart or as sensitive as I think he is, I get overly angry.
My therapist reveals himself more than Dr. Bob, so the problems don't crop up as much with him. I know who my therapist is. Dr. Bob could probably solve a fair number of the problems he has with posters by also revealing more. But I suppose that could open a new set of problems.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:59:41
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on December 22, 2004, at 10:50:13
I don't envy me at all. The ties that bind me to this world are snapping at a head spinning rate. Harry, my dad. My marriage is not great at the moment either. I *need* to care in order to be truly alive as a human being. Otherwise I just exist. And I have trouble connecting with others, in general. To lose an entity (and Babble is an entity unto itself) that I had a caring connection with is just one more untethering that I really don't need right now. I *need* to care about Babble.
I would hope that caring didn't interfere with deputizing too much. Deputy rules are so narrow and limited that when deputy intervention is even allowed, there isn't much room for interpretation of what needs to be done. Close calls aren't deputy territory. That belongs to Dr. Bob. And I had a separate internal rule that I wouldn't do anything about situations that only involved me. I'd wait for Dr. Bob.
Actually, caring about Babble might help when the inevitable fallout from being a deputy occurs. Otherwise it's all too easy to wonder why on earth you're putting yourself through this.
Posted by Toph on December 23, 2004, at 9:34:09
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Toph, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:51:53
I was thinking about Bob this morning. I have been considering leaving Babble because, despite all the good things, it might cost me my job if I don't reduce my involvement. Anyway, I was going to write a closing statement/goodbye letter and thoughts of civility came to mind. I am embarassed by many of my juvenile protests and insults I have directed his way. He has his hands tied, and it's like punching and spitting upon a defenseless person, well, you get the picture. It's pretty cowardly on my part.
Dinah, I think I have expressed this in some way to you before, you, are pretty enigmatic to me as well. You are so levelheaded, so serious, so firm in your commitment to the principles of this site that you are in many ways the conscience of PB for many of us. When I'm being bad, in the back of my mind I worry about what Dinah will think. That doesn't mean that my transference of you is that of a mother, more of a school teacher. You will tolerate childish behavior so much and then you demand decorum. I know this isn't reality, I've seen you play and suffer in ways a teacher couldn't openly. Anyway, in case I do exit, I thought I'd share my experience. I haven't been here long but you were one of the people that stood out as real and having a formidable presence here.
I read some of the early archives and Bob was more involved in dialogue with participants. He still was enigmatic then as well. But as frustrating as it is for us that he has to guard against exposing his human side, I'm sure it is equally frustrating for him to be the neutral observer and administrator. I bet that he must have wanted to kick my @ss a few times.
Have a nice holiday, Dinah.
-Toph
Posted by vwoolf on December 23, 2004, at 11:08:29
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:59:41
Oh Dinah, you are SO sweet! I love it that you care for Babble. Please keep on caring.
My T has just told me that she will still be there for me when we both are little old ladies with walking sticks, and come hobbling in to session. I like to think that PB will still be there too with you and Dr Bob keeping us in order.
A warm hug.
Vwoolf
Posted by partlycloudy on December 23, 2004, at 12:03:55
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:59:41
I would hope to strive for compassion for those people I know (and babble as a collective entity) but enough emotional distance to not insert myself too deeply so that I get hurt when things don't go the way I'd like.
In spite of what your words express, a great deal of caring for the people at babble is relayed by your every post, Dinah. I too have experienced that positive transference regarding Dr Bob, and much of it is due directly to how enigmatic he keeps himself. During the time when you took your hiatus from deputy duties, and Dr Bob was not able to monitor the often quickly escalating and heated discussions here, is when I became disenchanted with the babble entity. Just knowing that someone is scanning and monitoring the posts shows that someone is caring.I'm sorry that you feel that you've cut yourself off from here, but I just don't think it's entirely true.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 17:49:09
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:59:41
I have found that I project etc quite a lot on these boards. But then the more I think about the kinds of interactions I have on the boards the more I get to thinking about my real world interactions as well. I do that stuff in the real world too. Maybe it is intensified here. But then maybe that is because I am intensified here. I share that intense stuff, and get really involved in others struggles as well.
I agree that sometimes it is really hard to know how to take Dr B. We don't get much data and so it is easy to imagine the blanks in keeping with ones pathology... Sometimes I think things could be sorted out much easier if he could just share a little bit more. But then other times I think that it may prevent a fair few problems by his remaining detached.
He seems to (at least attempt) to move accordingly sometimes. It must be a hard thing to figure and I don't envy him that.
No no no, I do not.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 17:54:51
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 17:49:09
I sent my old p-doc a link to Dr B's homepage and told him about the boards.
I figured it could give him something to do in his retirement :-)
I wouldn't mind if he was here
And figured out who I was
But then I don't see him anymore
And I miss him.(If you are reading this I haven't told anyone else about this site, so yes I must be talking about you)
:-)
Be well.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:07:22
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by Toph on December 23, 2004, at 9:34:09
A schoolmarm, eh? lol. I don't think that's really in keeping with my self image. I think of myself more as that insufferable little suck up to the teacher sort of kid. Maybe because I have trouble thinking of myself as anything but a kid.
I do understand the need to limit Babble time so as to be able to live the rest of your life. But I selfishly hope you manage to do that without having to leave Babble entirely. I think you're too rough on yourself. I've thought highly of you from beginning of our acquaintance, and I don't recall too many times you shook that core belief. I enjoy your input. You have a direct approach that I appreciate.
That's one thing I like about Babble. I've come to enjoy so many different sorts of people that I may not have come to know enough to understand and enjoy other places. I delight in the whimsy of some Babblers, though I'm too thoroughly literal to participate. I appreciate the passion of other Babblers, though I'm rarely moved to passion myself.
I think that's the main positives my therapist sees.
I do hope you're able to find a workable compromise for yourself. For me, I only read a few of the boards. In fact, Psychology is the only board I generally read tip to toe. The others I just scan. Maybe you can figure out a similar solution for your own Babble needs.
Babble's a richer place for your being here. Although of course we all also understand the necessities of pulling back when it interferes with the rest of life, or our mental health.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:11:05
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by vwoolf on December 23, 2004, at 11:08:29
So another of us has been promised forever therapy? :) Mine promises he'll be here as long as he can hobble to the elevator. If he gets another job, he'll still do therapy part time. If he retires, he can make a part time office in his garage. lol. He gets quite silly in his reassurances sometimes and makes me laugh.
His absolutely worst assurance was when I warned him he'd better never get his license yanked for ethical violations and he said he thought he might be able to see me anyway. I told him that wasn't quite the reassurance I was looking for. :)
I hope Dr. Bob keeps Babble alive. I not infrequently wonder why he continues going to the trouble and bother it causes him. I'm hoping it's because he loves Babble too.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:16:01
In reply to PB and caring » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on December 23, 2004, at 12:03:55
It may not be, and I hope it's just self preservation that's cut off my feelings some.
My therapist always says feeling love isn't as important as doing love and that I'm good at doing love even when I don't feel it. I think that's unbelievably silly. Doing love may be important, but feeling love is the emotional payoff.
You really ought to bring Babble to your sessions if it's an important part of your life. It was a little hard initially to discuss it with my computer illiterate and internet suspicious therapist, but I think it really paid off. Not only because he helps me process Babble trauma, but also because Babble is a rich source for mining the depths of my own psyche. If I bring in a post, or tell him about a post, that someone else wrote, there's generally a good reason why it resonates with me.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:16:41
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:11:05
Um Dinah, you can feel free to just ignore this completely but do you think that it is ethical of him to not be working towards your recovery in the sense that you should eventually outgrow him or simply not need him anymore. I mean, how come that isn't your mutual goal?
Posted by annierose on December 23, 2004, at 18:37:48
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:16:41
I am not speaking for Dinah, because she will do that a heck of a lot better than I. But from my own experience, I, too, cannot imagine wanting to leave therapy. For me, it's support. Someplace I can sort through my feelings and be safe and feel understood. That is worth the world to me. And it's the best gift I could ever give myself and my family ... they directly benefit from having a happy mom + wife. I may not go as frequently as I do now, but I do see therapy in my life for many years to come.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 20:54:38
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:16:41
It's not my goal!!!
No, seriously (ok, I was being serious but still...) please don't blame my longsuffering therapist for that. My therapy ground completely to a halt for what was probably years - at least months, while I was completely absorbed by my fears of abandonment. My fears were perceived by him as a demand for forever therapy (as if I would ever feel able to *demand* anything from him). For the last few months of the struggle there was increasing tension between the two of us over the subject until we had a big blowout argument about it. At this time of year, come to think of it. I remember the office was mainly closed. During the argument he admitted he had trouble with dependent women.
Then, pouf. The arguments ceased. He stopped fighting the dependence, and that's when the process began to where it's now a teasing thing. My focus was able to change from terror at being abandoned to things outside therapy. It was like when you're pushing against something and it gives way, you stumble but then are able to stand upright? If that makes any sense.
I had always figured he got supervision, but he recently told me no. That he had just remembered that it never works to try to change someone without first accepting exactly who they are right now. Which led to some bristling on my part that he *did* expect me to change, and this was just a ploy to get me to change. But he remained calm and steady. Said that it was up to me whether I changed or not, and that he was ok if I never did change. Smart man. :)
And in addition to it being a clever therapeutic technique with a client who just can't get past fear of loss, Annierose is right. I'm a better wife and mom for having ongoing support for a hmmm... high strung disposition, shall we say.
My neurologist answered "Good, I'm glad to hear it." when I answered her question about how often I go to therapy. I told her that most people didn't seem to think it was good at all, and she answered that she tends to see too many people who are inadequately treated. And she was happy to see it when someone takes care of themself in whatever ways are helpful to them. I really like that doctor. :)
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 20:55:09
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:16:41
Posted by vwoolf on December 24, 2004, at 0:07:31
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:11:05
Hi Dinah, lifetime therapy is a great promise. I don't know if I actually will take up my T's offer, but at the moment any talk of termination throws me into a spin, so we solve the problem by saying there will be no end. However I am not altogether against the idea of carrying on regardless. I find therapy a wonderful place for coming to grips with what is going on in my life, and that is something that is not related only to this difficult moment in my life. I wish I'd had a place like this all the way through. I think the cost factor is the only thing that would dissuade me.
>>>His absolutely worst assurance was when I warned him he'd better never get his license yanked for ethical violations and he said he thought he might be able to see me anyway. I told him that wasn't quite the reassurance I was looking for. :)<<<
I love this. I shall have to see how my T responds to this.
I also think Dr Bob gets a lot of flack for a thankless task. Unless maybe he is writing a wonderful treatise on us and our progress, and so is getting something back in terms of fresh case studies every day. But even so....
Please Dr Bob, don't take any notice of what I have just said. I'm counting on you for my old age. :-)
Posted by Toph on December 24, 2004, at 8:24:39
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Toph, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 18:07:22
Thanks for the encouragement, Dinah. For about 15 years I lived a life in denial of my illness because my medication was so effective at allowing me to function in the "real world." But I know that bipolar diorder is as much a part of who I am as my family is, my career and my physical body. To deny any part of our selves is unhealthy. So when I stumbled upon PB I felt a reunion with a missing part of me. When someone is dishonest, selfish, mean, egotistical or overly juvenile it seems they are taken to task quickly. Since I can be all of those things at times and I am sensitive, I felt unwelcome. I suppose many who haven't had a post noticed or get criticized feel unwelcome at some time here. I'll try to be more selective in my involvement.
-Toph
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2004, at 20:12:12
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Dinah, posted by Toph on December 24, 2004, at 8:24:39
Most everyone can be some or all of those things from time to time. It's just part of being human. Unfortunately, natural consequences for being human are also part of life. That doesn't mean you're unwelcome. I find it hard to believe that anyone who makes themselves vulnerable by revealing their struggles over this type of issue could be unwelcome.
I doubt there's anyone who hasn't felt ignored or criticized on Babble from time to time if they're here long enough. Heaven knows how often I've been criticized. Sometimes openly, sometimes not so openly. Like I said, Babble had to come to therapy, because I got so upset about Babble.
I think that's another reason Babble's been good for me. I used to feel like if I was just *good* enough, no one would be mad at me. Now I figure there's no way to be good enough that no one will be mad at me. There's no way I can explain myself so very clearly that there is no way that someone can read something I didn't intend into what I wrote. If I can, I try to mend fences. Sometimes that isn't possible.
Ok, I admit I still have some problems with that - and even more problems when two people that I like don't seem to see the wonderful qualities in each other that I see. But it's a work in progress.
Babble can be a relatively safe environment to work on these issues - especially if you feel safe bringing Babble to therapy and can get expert input into your patterns of interaction.
Ok, now I'd better stop, because typing that made me realize I'm presently being guilty of something that my therapist thinks is an unfortunate interpersonal tendency of mine. :)
Oh well, a work in progress.
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2004, at 20:15:25
In reply to Re: Bringing PB into therapy » Toph, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2004, at 20:12:12
Hmmm... I'm reasonable certain that I should have expressed that as:
Heaven knows how often I've felt criticized.
That ok, Dr. Bob?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 25, 2004, at 15:24:19
In reply to I statement correction, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2004, at 20:15:25
Posted by alexandra_k on December 26, 2004, at 18:25:05
In reply to I statement correction, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2004, at 20:15:25
I have had therapists say they would always be there for me. I call them on that because it is b*llsh*t - nothing is forever. My last psychologist said that she would be there for me as long as I needed her. I liked that very much, but then that turned out to be b*lsh*t too, because she got burned out and made the ethical decision to drop me from her case.
I guess I figure that therapy is supposed to be about empowering me to take control of, and be happy with my life. If I thought I was going to have to be in therapy forever then I suppose I find that a very depressing thought. I would conclude that therapy had failed me.
I think that if you have to rely on a t for insights (forever) then that is very sad indeed. If they are helping you get them but not helping you figure out how to get them yourself then aren't they just encouraging dependancy? If they are meeting your emotional needs but aren't teaching you how to get your emotional needs met in real world relationships then aren't they just encouraging dependancy?
I like to think of therapy as a process of working through. Whoever does that (competantly) is fairly much interchangable with the next t. In the same way I like to think that a client who is willing to work should be fairly much interchangable with the next one. I mean, sure I may not think of it that way at the time but if I am terminated because we have reached a stalemate or because they are burned out or whatever then so long as I am passed onto someone competant then I think that is the best decision to be made and I like to think that I would get over it, and get reattached soon enough.
I can't really get past the fact that therapy is a SERVICE. Like a hairdresser or whatever. It is something that is paid for (by someone or other). Some people get addicted to drugs. There is something you can pay for that always keeps you coming back for more and I quite often think of the similarity between drug pushing and being a therapist.
The other one I think of is prostitution. Loads of people go to pros not so much for the sex (some don't even want sex) - they want to talk.
Rent a friend service. If they aren't helping you meet those needs in the real world, then I think there is something of the drug pusher or pro in the service that is provided. One that is encouraging dependancy.
It is a sobering thought for me.
But one that arises because of my history no doubt.Don't get me wrong, I envy people who have someone who seems to be so very committed to working with them. But I just worry about that commitment and attachment blinding people to what could (and indeed should - eventually) become a stalemate situation. Shouldn't we outgrow them eventually? Shouldn't we get to the point where we simply do not need them any more? Maybe some people will never get there, but isn't that what it is about? Working to get there. Being able to say 'why on earth should I pay you for when I can find that myself in the real world? Why should I continue with a fairly much one sided relationship with an inherant power imbalance when I can have equal, reciprocal relationships that meet my needs in the real world?
Maybe (probably) I am hopelessly optimistic.
All of the above is very genuinely not intended as a judgement or criticism. It is just my thoughts. It is very likely that I am leaving a whole lot out of the picture here. I would welcome others thoughts on this.I don't know.
Posted by daisym on December 26, 2004, at 19:42:12
In reply to Lifetime Therapy, posted by alexandra_k on December 26, 2004, at 18:25:05
Wow, Alexandra, your post struck me as sad. Like you've had some very tough experiences in relation to your therapy.
I'm not sure how to respond without it coming off as defensive so I guess I'll just say straight out that I agree with some of what you said but disagree strongly with your comparisons.
I don't see therapy as a forever thing...at least the insight part. But I can see why it would be valuable with regards to ongoing support. There is something important about being able to explore your feelings about things without always having to be careful.
I don't see a resemblence between my therapist and a drug dealer or a prostitute. Those occupations are about making money,(and they are illegal if not immoral) not helping someone. Would you compare a doctor or teacher to these people? They get paid, and we get attached. How come we seem to consider these more "noble" than therapists? Something that always occurs to me is that people seek out therapy and therapists...it isn't like they go trolling for clients. They aren't enticing folks into therapy, nor are they coercing them into staying. And while I agree it is a service, I think it is little like childcare, as a service. We are paying for someone to care for our children, but we want someone who genuinely likes kids and grows fond of OUR kids. That connection makes for a relationship, above and beyond the money. I don't want my kids to just be interchangeable with any old kid...just like I hope my therapist looks at me as an individual, not "adjustment disorder 40-something female."
I do hear the concern about encouraging dependency. But what if we reframe it as attachment, mutual respect and interdependency, instead of something prejorative? I think like most things in life, one-size does NOT fit all and people have different needs for different kinds of therapy. Aren't we all glad that so many types exist for us to choose from?
I hope you find what you are looking for.
Daisy
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
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