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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 21:37:59
In reply to Jadah!, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:07:19
Thank you for being concerned. That was warming to hear. I understand how you are feeling in regards to your desires for your T. I also agree that fantasies are better than the real thing. One thing I struggled with early on was getting to know him on a personal level. I had initially had him on such a high pedistal, perfect in everyway, impervious to any wrong.... as I got to know him outside of his traditional role I saw the more human side of him... the emotional struggles, mood swings, biases, points of view, habits... i was very thrown when we had our first arguement as a "couple", it was so foreign, you dont do that in therapy. It was disappointing to find out that he wasnt perfect, almost "godly" like I thought him to be in my mind. I saw him as human. I didnt like that at first, I wanted him to be consistent, essentially, I wanted him to be a full time T in both worlds....soothing voice, understanding, attentive to my every word... empathetic.... (non human). I can accept this reality now but I have often wondered if I had initially fell in love with the IDEA of him rather than the person. Know that ;your feelings are real, dont be afraid of them. I encourage you to process them with your T to whatever lengtth you are comfortable. Remember that with transference comes countertransference- they have feelings about you too. It does get difficult for them at times to not express these feelings or urges. I think that by talking about it together it is also a relief to the T to express themselves also (in a theraputic way) I do not suggest having an affair with your T (like IM doing) to anyone. I kow myself and where I am at. Right or wrong, it is sustaining me right now at this point in my life and I am emotionally able to handle the situation- especiallly together talking openly about things. I do know it cant go on forever. Maybe at that point I will be devestated, I hope I can handle it with as much pride as I have now. Feel free to ask me or talk about anything. I appreciate your willingness and verve. Talk to you soon.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:43:34
In reply to Re: my first letter, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:01:59
I like your long posts. They tell me things I want to know.
Never apologize for a long post, okay?
I'm glad you're feeling positive about yourself; if you come out of this relationship with your T knowing what you want from a man, that's a good thing, isn't it.
Posted by lucy stone on July 27, 2004, at 21:47:05
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
Dear Jadah, I feel so sad when I read your post. This man is abusing you. He is taking advantage of his positon as your therapist by having a sexual relationship with you. His is betraying his wife by having an affair, he is betraying his profession by not adhering to his professional ethics. Your welfare should be his only consideration and by having sex with you he is not taking proper care of you. You are the victim in this situation and I do not blame or condemn you at all, I put all the blame on him. He is supposed to know better, indeed he does know better or he would not feel guilty about his actions. I hope he is talking about his actions with his own therapist and he or she is helping him see how wrong his actions are. I hope he ends this affair soon and minimizes the harm to you. There are reasons why all the professional organizations covering therapists prohibit sex between therapists and patients, because it is never in the best interests of the patient. My heart goes out to you, truly.
Lucy
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana » starlight, posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 20:09:58
Yes I think a good T would guide you in the direction of good mental health; if he knows you're relying on drugs or alcohol, for example, he might bring that up. If he knows you're extremely anxious at times, to the point of having panic attacks, wouldn't he bring *that* up? These are things I went through while under the *supervision* (what do therapists call it?) of my T and he didn't once (a) bring up any of these issues, or (b) pursue them when *I* brought them up.
He was laid back to the point of, I think, indifference. It hurt. A lot.
He might have been cleaning his nails, too, when I wasn't watching.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 21:59:26
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, insert, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 20:11:21
Hi Jadah,
What on earth does this mean (take it with humour, meant that way) "He checks in with me while we are intimate...."
I don't think what you're experiencing with your T is what the average relationship is like at all.
He's your therapist and you're having sex with him; you're getting the best of two worlds at the same time.
Maybe that's my fantasy. What a wonderful fantasy. I want it. No wonder that a client like me will fall for her therapist in a sexual way. What could be better? I'm sure what you're experiencing is very beautiful right now. I bet it's hard on your therapist too. He sounds like a sensitive person. Hmm.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 22:06:54
In reply to Re: Susan47, posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 21:37:59
Omigod, I have to tell you that my therapist fired me.
He says my transference is too intense. His face, his voice ...
It's my own fault. I couldn't control my desire to shake him out of being so calm, serene, well-balanced ... and indifferent.
Ask me what I did ...
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 5:44:48
In reply to For Jadah, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 22:06:54
Susan, I am sorry your therapist couldn't work with your transferance. My analyst says that we can deal with whatever feelings come up, even intense erotic transference. He tells me that I can have all my feelings, we just can't physically act on them. As it says in "In Session," the patient should be able to come into the office naked saying "take me" and the T should tell him or her to put their clothes back on and talk about it. Your T let you down by not working it through with you. Since he couldn't do that he did the right thing by terminating you. As much as it hurt it is better for you than acting on his countertransference.
Posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by lucy stone on July 27, 2004, at 21:47:05
Warning: Jadah, don't read this post if you are feeling sensitive. It is a tough love thing.
I agree with Lucy Stone on this one. Sorry Jadah, but I think what he is doing is reprehensible. He is hurting you, his profession and his wife. Just because it feels good to you now doesn't mean that what he is doing is right.
When I come to a male therapist revealing my childhood hurts, in many ways I become a child emotionally, even though I have a woman's body. For the therapist to have sex with that body would be, to me, the same thing as taking advantage of a child. I am not alone in this theory of why it is wrong, it's in all the literature.
I am not saying you did anything wrong. I think that he is the one who is wrong. You came to him with sexual abuse history and I feel that he consciously or subconscioulsy took advantage of that. He may "seem" sensitive, but I don't think someone who cheats on his wife with a vulnerable patient--who is also paying him no less--is a sensitive person. Sorry I just don't.
I thought he was supposed to help the emotional child grow up into an emotional adult so that you could find a loving relationship with an available person. Not keep you emeshed with him.
I hope this post doesn't make you feel worse, but I think this situation is very dangerous and will hurt you in the end. Can you at least get the names of other therapists or support groups, so you have them as backups when this unravels?
P.S. I very much appreciate your honesty in this. I know it has helped me immensely in my own transference issues, to see the dangers of crossing the line.
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:28:04
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:32:28
In reply to Thanks Lcy (nm), posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:28:04
PS, I don't think my therapist was necessarily countertransferring. To be fair, I did ask him to let me go. I wasn't strong enough to do that work on my own; when I feel strongly about someone, and I know it's not good for me, I've always needed that person to end the relationship.
Although I seem to have done just fine ending the relationship with my real father.
My therapist was a great help on many fronts.
I just couldn't work past the intensity of wanting to know him as a real human; and that's not their role. They're not there to be real to us.
Maybe that sounds confused, but I'll work it through.
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 10:47:30
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 9:32:28
Susan, I understand this perfectly. I, too, want my therapist to be more than a T to me. I beg, I plead, I rage, I manipulatate, but he won't cross his boundries. I don't have erotic feelings for him, I want his as a perfect comfortor. This is something I repeatedly do in my life, in ways that have often not been good for me. We are working it through by examining why I want it, why it enrages me that he can't give it to me, and what it would mean to me if it could. For me this work is makingly my life better. I'm not saying that you should be doing the same thing, just saying what I am doing.
Posted by pretty_paints on July 28, 2004, at 11:49:26
In reply to I'm in love with my therapist, posted by tinydancer on October 10, 2003, at 2:43:19
My main issues are to do with my mum, and the fact that I never got enough love or attention from her. However, looking back, my crushes have ALWAYS been on MEN and my MALE therapist. At school I would have a crush on usually every one of my male teachers, to varying degrees, and only very occasionally a crush on a woman teacher. Although it was mainly a 'I want them to protect me and look after me' thing, it was also sexual too. I wanted them to be sexually attracted to me, but unable to act on their feelings because I was a student. I wanted to act like the innocent young student, but at the same time know exactly what I was doing to make myself attractive to them. Anyone ever been here..?
But how does this figure with my issues with my mum? I had a great relationship with my dad, and was never abused by either of my parents, or anyone else. My mum wasnt cruel either, she was just emotionally distant and not very affectionate.
Also, is there something significant about the fact that I want to be sexually attractive to people who arnt "allowed" to reciprocate? Like, my teachers for example. I even got a crush on my doctor, who is like 60!! and very wrinkly etc! Oh dear me.
I know this isnt exactly following the main subject of these posts. I was gonna start a new thread, but I figured that since its sort of along the same lines, you guys might have some insight! I did have a crush on my last therapist, but I'm seeing a woman now. I dont feel much for her at the moment but I havent been seeing her very long. I had a dream about her the other night though and am TERRIFIED of developing feelings for her. Just because Iv been through that with teachers, and just reading your posts reminds me of how horrendously painful it can be. And I do not want to go there again!
Any help would be really appreciated!!
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Hi everyone, posted by Joslynn on July 28, 2004, at 9:16:08
I don't think that everyone is or turns into a a 'child' in the therapists office. Every experience is a learning experience and this is Jadah's journey at the moment and the psychiatrist's. Yes his behavior is wrong, but once again, he's just human. And like I mentioned before, he has his own problems with his marriage and is likely acting out rather than facing his problems, which is very, very common behavior that most of us exhibit at times.
I do think it's a mistake to assume that he's never done this before, just because he says it - that may or may not be true.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:04:35
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 10:47:30
How does it make your life better that he's unwilling to be comforting to you?
And Susan, what are you going to do about your therapy situation? I think I mentioned to you that you might try a woman? Any thoughts on that? I switched from a man, who actually was a lot like my father and brought up a lot of anger, to a woman, who I'm able to deal with issues with without stirring up that emotion. And of course, the man violated my confidentiality, which basically, fulfilled my belief that men who appear similar to my father most likely are. I trust the woman so much more and feel safer with her. Just a thought.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:07:41
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pretty_paints on July 28, 2004, at 11:49:26
You're gonna laugh at this, but when I was in college, I had an affair with my Public Affairs professor. At first I thought he was soo sexy, powerful, smart, put together. But once I got into the affair with him, I was completely disgusted. He was wrinkly, old, and frankly disgusting. That pretty much cured me of ever wanting those types of relationships again. ICK!!!
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 13:23:49
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pretty_paints on July 28, 2004, at 11:49:26
I think it's natural to want the opposite sex, (if you're heterosexual) to see you as attractive. Even to sexually desire you. And it's normal to develop crushes. Ever watched little kids? They do it all the time. We all have some of the little kid in us, too. There's nothing wrong with that.
Don't beat yourself up over those feelings.
I do have one question though; it's about power. Do you give your power away to those you feel "know" more than you do?
Just asking. What do you think?
I'm asking, because you seem to be attracted to people in power (e.g., your md) who you would not normally be attracted to.
I've seen therapists, psyciatrists, and counsellors over the years, both men and women, and this latest experience is the first in which I've developed feelings of desire.
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 13:30:24
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:04:35
I feel really good right now about not being in therapy. As I said, my ex-therapist helped me a great deal in the time that I did see him. I dealt with a lot of issues; and although "issues" never disappear as long as there are triggers for them, (i.e., parents, children, spouses), knowing why I have problems in some of these areas helps me deal with them.
I think it must take a lot for a therapist to drop a client; in my case, it was comforting that he had the integrity to know when he was no longer being helpful and also to do something about it. He has recommended someone else to me, but I'm not sure I'm ready to do any more emotional work right now.
I think me ex-T is a nice man and he did the right thing. Sometimes that's letting go. I didn't see it as a rejection and I hope I never do, because that would be bloody awful.
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 14:11:25
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:04:35
Oh, he's willing to be comforting to me and is so whenever I need it. He does it over and over, but it doesn't fill the need I have inside of me. The need I have is a fantasy of a perfect comfortor, one that will never let me down, one that never makes mistakes, one that will always be there and will make everything OK. It's not possible for a human to be like that, it's a very primative longing. He comforts me as much as any human can, but that can't fufill the fantasy. Right now I can't let the comfort I do have in my real life come in because I'm too wound up in the fantasy. I'm gradually letting go if it and no longer look for it to be fulfilled outside of his office. That's real progress for me because I'm not looking for it in other relationships and has been a huge help in my life.
Posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:34:34
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 13:07:41
Sometimes the gap between fantasy and reality is bigger than we can (and want to!) imagine...thanks for sharing this 'crush deterrent' with us. :)
pretty paints, I know what you're talking about - getting crushes on people in some kind of authority position; liking people we shouldn't / can't have. I have done this myself (gotten mild crushes on teachers, bosses, etc.) I've tried to analyze why I do this, and here's what I came up with:
Getting crushes on these people is a sign of self-doubt and under-confidence (in me.) I see the 'authority people' (doctors, teachers, bosses) as being designated as "smart" or "worthwhile" by society. And while I don't necessarily love the person they ARE, I want them to love ME. If a person in this authority position wants/likes/desires ME, that must mean that I'm special and worthy and great. It means that I'm the kind of person that powerful, authoritative people go after. Ergo, I must be powerful and authoritative myself.
If a teacher desires me, it means that I'm intellectually stimulating; I'm deep; I have a poetic heart and a mind as sharp as steel. If a doctor desires me, it means that I will live forever (because a doctor is a healer...and wouldn't a healer choose a healthy strong person?) If a boss wants me, it means that I'm smart and vivacious; I slice through problems like a knife through butter; my work is so brilliant and stunning and efforlessly perfect that it would be sheer folly to NOT love me.)
I guess that I want to be wanted, even if I don't myself want the one in question. It satisfies a craving for love; the need to be desired. It tells me that I'm worthy. I get a crush on this person because what I really want is for them to crush on ME. (Maybe it's the "do unto others" in action???)
Of course, I know that I AM worthy and wonderful and have that poetic mind (and yadda yadda all the rest too) even if those people don't love me, which very often, they don't appear to do, unless they are masters at masking their secret lurking desires. (<--sarcasm...smile.)
I also think that I don't like to be in the subordinate position (having a boss be "over" me, having a doctor "know more" than I do, etc.) So wanting them to want me is wanting to turn the tables & get the upper hand. If THEY have an uncontrollable crush on ME, then guess who is on top, is smarter, all of a sudden? Yes! Me!
But lately I've gotten away from the crushes. I have a woman doctor who is nice but not crush-worthy, and my recent bosses have not been attractive enough to inspire a crush. I've tried to convince myself it wastes time and energy to crush out on people frequently. Sometimes it is fun, though...
I don't know if you feel the same way. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject!
JenStar
> You're gonna laugh at this, but when I was in college, I had an affair with my Public Affairs professor. At first I thought he was soo sexy, powerful, smart, put together. But once I got into the affair with him, I was completely disgusted. He was wrinkly, old, and frankly disgusting. That pretty much cured me of ever wanting those types of relationships again. ICK!!!
> starlight
Posted by pinkeye on July 28, 2004, at 16:51:41
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:34:34
Jenstar,
I can so relate with your post. I exactly feel the same. I always have crush with people who are very good and feel that if they like me, I must be like that too.
But I usually like them for who they are as well. Not just for the fact that they like me. And I don't want to prove to myself that I am smarter than them by them liking me.
Pinkeye.> Sometimes the gap between fantasy and reality is bigger than we can (and want to!) imagine...thanks for sharing this 'crush deterrent' with us. :)
>
> pretty paints, I know what you're talking about - getting crushes on people in some kind of authority position; liking people we shouldn't / can't have. I have done this myself (gotten mild crushes on teachers, bosses, etc.) I've tried to analyze why I do this, and here's what I came up with:
>
> Getting crushes on these people is a sign of self-doubt and under-confidence (in me.) I see the 'authority people' (doctors, teachers, bosses) as being designated as "smart" or "worthwhile" by society. And while I don't necessarily love the person they ARE, I want them to love ME. If a person in this authority position wants/likes/desires ME, that must mean that I'm special and worthy and great. It means that I'm the kind of person that powerful, authoritative people go after. Ergo, I must be powerful and authoritative myself.
>
> If a teacher desires me, it means that I'm intellectually stimulating; I'm deep; I have a poetic heart and a mind as sharp as steel. If a doctor desires me, it means that I will live forever (because a doctor is a healer...and wouldn't a healer choose a healthy strong person?) If a boss wants me, it means that I'm smart and vivacious; I slice through problems like a knife through butter; my work is so brilliant and stunning and efforlessly perfect that it would be sheer folly to NOT love me.)
>
> I guess that I want to be wanted, even if I don't myself want the one in question. It satisfies a craving for love; the need to be desired. It tells me that I'm worthy. I get a crush on this person because what I really want is for them to crush on ME. (Maybe it's the "do unto others" in action???)
>
> Of course, I know that I AM worthy and wonderful and have that poetic mind (and yadda yadda all the rest too) even if those people don't love me, which very often, they don't appear to do, unless they are masters at masking their secret lurking desires. (<--sarcasm...smile.)
>
> I also think that I don't like to be in the subordinate position (having a boss be "over" me, having a doctor "know more" than I do, etc.) So wanting them to want me is wanting to turn the tables & get the upper hand. If THEY have an uncontrollable crush on ME, then guess who is on top, is smarter, all of a sudden? Yes! Me!
>
> But lately I've gotten away from the crushes. I have a woman doctor who is nice but not crush-worthy, and my recent bosses have not been attractive enough to inspire a crush. I've tried to convince myself it wastes time and energy to crush out on people frequently. Sometimes it is fun, though...
>
> I don't know if you feel the same way. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject!
>
> JenStar
>
>
>
> > You're gonna laugh at this, but when I was in college, I had an affair with my Public Affairs professor. At first I thought he was soo sexy, powerful, smart, put together. But once I got into the affair with him, I was completely disgusted. He was wrinkly, old, and frankly disgusting. That pretty much cured me of ever wanting those types of relationships again. ICK!!!
> > starlight
>
>
Posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:58:00
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » JenStar, posted by pinkeye on July 28, 2004, at 16:51:41
You know, I agree with you - I guess I always do like people who are cool, nice, interesting. There are always some authority figures who don't interest me at all; the ones who do ARE the nice / smart / awesome ones.
But I think I do have an insecurity complex that convinces me that I need to prove myself, and if they like me, then that proves I'm superior or equal to them and therefore 'worthy.' Of course this backfires all the time. Oh well. Such is life, right? :)
Thanks for your post!
JenStar
Posted by pinkeye on July 28, 2004, at 17:16:52
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:58:00
I think I am a good person too. But somehow I like people who are little better than me. I know I want them to like me. Maybe some part of it is to prove to myself that I am worthy, but I think I genuninely like them.
But it always backfires.
Any idea why it backfires? I have tried to like only people who are little less than me, who are not so good, but honestly, I don't like them.> You know, I agree with you - I guess I always do like people who are cool, nice, interesting. There are always some authority figures who don't interest me at all; the ones who do ARE the nice / smart / awesome ones.
>
> But I think I do have an insecurity complex that convinces me that I need to prove myself, and if they like me, then that proves I'm superior or equal to them and therefore 'worthy.' Of course this backfires all the time. Oh well. Such is life, right? :)
>
> Thanks for your post!
> JenStar
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 17:23:55
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 14:11:25
You know the comforting part is something that you have to do for yourself. That's hard to hear and hard to do, but really, you've got to be able to do it. You come into the world alone, you go out of it alone so you have to be able to take care of yourself/love yourself/comfort yourself along the way. starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 17:27:57
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist ? JenStar, posted by pinkeye on July 28, 2004, at 16:51:41
I think the other thing that's a great deterrent is understanding that intelligence does not equal wisdom. I work with all sorts of doctors. They're smart, but not wise. I see trophy wives all over the place, rampant materialism and emotional dysfunction. I've known poor people without formal educations with more wisdom than that! It's made me see things differently from this end.
starlight
Posted by lucy stone on July 28, 2004, at 17:36:36
In reply to Re: Thanks Lcy, posted by starlight on July 28, 2004, at 17:23:55
Of course I know that. If I could do that I wouldn't be in therapy. With the help of my T I will learn how to do it. Right now I don't.
> You know the comforting part is something that you have to do for yourself. That's hard to hear and hard to do, but really, you've got to be able to do it. You come into the world alone, you go out of it alone so you have to be able to take care of yourself/love yourself/comfort yourself along the way. starlight
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