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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:35:34
In reply to Sorry to be posting again..., posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:25:53
I agree, it's idealistic, but not necessarily realistic. Yes, we want to have the right things in our lives, build good relationships based on trust and make good choices. But sometimes, we learn to make those good choices based on making bad choices. That can help us realize the difference and desire the better option. Otherwise, how do we recognize the difference?
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:45:30
In reply to Re: For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
You've had some interesting experiences. I used to work for a military-type organization too, and I know that male officers were always making advances towards girls, which they definitely weren't supposed to do. All of them married, I might add. The guys you dated in the military ... I'm curious, were they single or married?
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:48:24
In reply to Re: Sorry to be posting again... » Susan47, posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 23, 2004, at 13:22:30
Omigod thank you, I think I love you!
It's been discouraging posting because I don't get much response, and I really really need it.
Plus I'm having a horrible day, which doesn't help.
And at the end of next week I'll be PMS-ing, which is *definitely* another horrible downer.
This is one of the most horrible emotional times of my life .. I hope.
I want some *good* emotional times.
Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
In reply to Starlight, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:45:30
They were all single. I've dated two married men in my life, one that I knew was married and one that I didn't.
The married guy was very exciting at first. He was a doctor (OB/GYN) and wealthy and we dated for a few months. It was glamorous in the way that he treated me, the places he took me too and his lovemaking, but eventually I realized it was pretty worthless and he was worthless too and I dropped him. And the second guy fooled me into thinking that he was single, but I eventually put two and two together and got rid of that jerk also. Both times I was in my early twenties and kind of in that exploratory stage and the first married guy pursued me relentlessly. Those experiences turned me off to dating married guys completely.
I guess I don't judge either Jadah or the doc in this situation because some people think that it would be better if we arrived with certain rules completely ingrained in us that we never strayed from, but that's just not the truth. In many ways it's trial and error, and we hope that we'll make the right choices, but sometimes we don't. We can walk away from our wrong choices and in the end be better people for even making those wrong choices. This whole journey is just a set of experiences that we choose to make along the way, some work, some don't, some hurt, some make us feel good, some dark, some light, some yin, some yang.
Who knows - maybe Jadah's therapist is frustrated with his own life and while we'd like to hold therapists/doctors to the highest of standards and hope that he would leave his wife or deal with his family problems head on, evidently he didn't. He chose to deal with them by acting out - which a lot of people do. Just because he's a therapist doesn't preclude him from making bad choices.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:44
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
You're right. I was just feeling sorry for every patient in psychotherapy. It's a feeling sorry for myself day.
Yes, I agree that doctors have it just as tough as every one of us; I'm a little stuck with the moral high road though when I think about a patient being even more damaged. To be honest, I could never be a psychologist. I would end up having affairs with a lot of my patients, I'm sure. Love is a very easy thing to fall into.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:52
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
You're right. I was just feeling sorry for every patient in psychotherapy. It's a feeling sorry for myself day.
Yes, I agree that doctors have it just as tough as every one of us; I'm a little stuck with the moral high road though when I think about a patient being even more damaged. To be honest, I could never be a psychologist. I would end up having affairs with a lot of my patients, I'm sure. Love is a very easy thing to fall into.
Posted by Raindancer on July 24, 2004, at 10:24:38
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:52
Susan, I have enjoyed your posts very much. As a T in training and someone who cares very deeply for her T as well I find it all very interesting. Falling in love is not the same as loving and there are very many different kinds of love and none of these stay the same over time. My T knows about my feelings for him and we talk about it (This is important!). He also cares for me, at least on a therapeutiic level but we are both aware that the relationship stays in the therapy room. We respect ourselves and each other enough not to do anything that would hurt the other, our relationship or our relationships in real life. (I still find it hard though!)
A few years ago this wouldn't have been possible for me, but he just kept on talking about it and I was able to express at least some of what I felt. Everyday relationships change things. That's why married love can become tedious without care and work and it would be just the same with a T once the initial passion had worn off. You are bright and brave, wise and thoughtful. Go well.Raindancer.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
In reply to Re: For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
> I don't know how to explain it other than how I feel about it - it's like when I was in the military - there's not supposed to be any social/dating interaction between officers and enlisted. But I dated several officers, they were more educated in most cases, a couple were doctors, a couple were pilots, I even dated one (who knocked my socks off - I might add!) while I was in my tech school training. I'd sneak out of my window and meet him somewhere (and it was fun!)
starlight,
I totally understand your view. I, also, did some time in the military and the fraternization was quite rampant and usually without the serious consequences that *I think* many would predict.
I have been somewhat awed by the strictness of boundaries in therapy as compared to many other relationships such as teacher/student, officer/enlisted, etc.I try to believe it must be founded upon the fact that therapists learn so much more about our inner/personal (and usually painful) lives prior to the supposed affair. And yet I'm wondering how much that component matters when/if both therapist and patient seek to have a personal relationship. Furthermore, I've read extensively about the pain experienced by patients who have been exploited (in their own words) by therapists and yet I wonder what percentage of persons have sexual or otherwise inappropriate relations with Ts and don't go on to report it as exploitive? I don't mean to downplay the serious pain that I know some persons have felt as a result of crossing boundaries with their T, but at the same time it seems that having such strict boundaries actually causes some to want the relationship even more. The T, rather than seeming human, gets to assume a role "mightier" than any priest, teacher, doctor, or other person in our lives. Isn't that setup for the "fall?"
I'm know I'm bringing up some disturbing issues, but that's what I think about sometimes.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:24:51
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
I guess I left out the most significant fact about me and my perspective in the above post.
I met my husband while we were both in the military. We fraternized for over 6 months before we became "legal." It was not an officer/enlisted frat, but rather it was a relationship prohibited by the rules of our training facility, so once we got past a certain stage we were okay to date. Five years later, we got married.
I guess if I were a strict rules person then I wouldn't have him or my daughter now. Just an example.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 21:24:53
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
Look it up on the web; there's a couple of studies that show the same stats; all I remember is that 1% commit suicide after an affair with their therapist, 10% actually go on to marry each other (that was a surprise) but the numbers in between aren't very good either.
It's very interesting, and like everything in life, depends on all kinds of variables. I suppose we just have to do the best we can with what we've got.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 19:45:37
I feel that not falling for your T if you feel he is a good T (and he is a heterosexual), and you are a woman with trauma history, is impossible. I did that too, being a successful professional and a very hurt and messed-up trauma survivor.
Him being much older and me imagining nothing could really happen in real terms, made it so easy to tell him in countless e-mails and close to 100 of poems. Not once has he allowed me to discuss it with him in the sessions, as if it was a completely unacceptable conception, my need to bring it up was scorned mostly gently each time I tried. Yet, he let me tell the serial horrors of my life because he made me believe I needed to tell it all over until I heal. I drew the pictures, I told the details, I cried and sobbed and broke down a few times, to hear from him he deeply cared about me and loved me, my suffering had moved him, and he was there to absorb it all.
He persuaded me I had the dissociative disorder, he used hypnosis and silence to relieve my stress. If I did not fall for him, I would be a fiend, I feel. My social status appeased him, I asked him for advise on all aspects of my life, he had been the most intimate friend and companion I have ever had. Then, for an unknown reason, to me seemingly out of context, he turned on me screaming in my face: "do You think I am romantically attracted to you?", while I was flying away in horror saying "no", him saying "good, for I am not!". While he was examining every square micrometer of my face, neck, chest, hair, with his huge deep brown eyes ten inches from my face.
This happened after a few smaller impasses when I felt I should quit because I was too involved emotionally, he always dissuaded me by claiming I was "firing him" unjustly.
The following two sessions were a royal display of my humble apologies for yet another inaproppriate behavior, while he used every possible knowledge imparted to him in the moments of therapeutic intimacy, to ridicule and intimidate me starting with my sexual inadequacy to my "slut-like" almost alter. His explanation was that, this was a result of cumulative effect of my relentless confessions of attachment (no matter how poetic they were), and he needed the much wanted vacation.
The freeze and terror he recreated in me are, in my mind, zillion times worse than if he extended his arm and touched me physicaly.
The joy of emotional and intellectual intimacy I exprienced with him in the last 8 months is indiscribable. The rejection and betrayal I feel because I only dared to be the "incorporated me", put me way beyond the point where I began. Mind you, I walked in his office because he was recommended by the private school to discuss my eldest son's behavioral difficulties, then accepting him as my therapist when he revealed to me I suffered from severe trauma consequences and had me read Judy Herman's book.I think I shall never in my life look at a man again, let alone entertain an intimacy. I am killed, killed by my T because I dared to fall for him (not even having a notion in my head about the transference...)
All in all, if he had the guts to touch me, it would had been much less damage, in my mind.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 22:47:21
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
I can barely breathe.
You sound so much like me it's indescribable.
And I can see my T being unsettled by my behaviour.
It sounds like your ex-T went through trauma of his own; when he yelled at you with his "huge brown eyes" (is he the same T as mine????) was he denying something he was feeling?
Do they get messed up too?
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 22:53:36
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
You shouldn't have been traumatized by this man; he wasn't fair to you or honest with himself.
It's a bit difficult to follow everything in your story but I certainly made my own interpretations that hit really close to home for me. I can't tell everything in this format; too bad.
Thank you for your courage in sharing your story; you sound like a wonderful, brave, caring person.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 23:06:20
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
**Not once has he allowed me to discuss it with him in the sessions, as if it was a completely unacceptable conception, my need to bring it up was scorned mostly gently each time I tried.**
Are you, and was he referring specifically to the emails and poems, or something else?
If so, were you asking for *his* emotional feedback on them, or wishing to work through the emotions *you* had? What was your intent?
I'm wondering, because I'm thinking that if a T were really emotionally moved by the emotions of a client, would s/he feel threatened by that?
I need to know... anybody?
Posted by lucy stone on July 25, 2004, at 9:19:02
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 23:06:20
I'm sorry this happened to you, Damiana, your T should have been able to talk about your feelings. The kind of feelings you have for your T are very typical and an experienced T should be able to help you with them. I just finished "In Session", recommended by many on this board and it helped me tremendously. I want to thank all who suggested it and I also recommend it to all women in long term therapy. I wish I had it now to refer to but I lent it to my T last Thursday! He had never heard of it but was interested and promised to at least look through it, but his fist question to me was about why I felt it was important. Anyway, the book is about the feelings women clients develop for their Ts and the appropriate and inappropriate responses they get in return. The book does say that some Ts will not discuss the close feelings clients develop but that not discussing them is a mistake. The best Ts use the feelings as a point of exploration, wanting to know more about them and accepting them without being threatened. I wish I could say more but I can't without the book to help me, but I can't recommend it too highly.
Posted by Damiana on July 26, 2004, at 8:25:51
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by lucy stone on July 25, 2004, at 9:19:02
Thank you so much for helping me through the worst moments by your input and support. I feel if he did allow me to talk about it and go through it with him as the book seem to suggest, all would be well.
I did contact him back after I posted my story. Learning about transference opened my eyes and made me realize that what I was experiencing was normal and was to be expected rather than a sign of my moral turpitude as I came to believe.
Posted by starlight on July 26, 2004, at 13:12:08
In reply to Steelmagnolia25, posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 21:24:53
That 1% may have committed suicide regardless of whether or not they had the affair - just a thought.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 26, 2004, at 13:21:22
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
One thing to think about in this situation, (although I personally think that therapists don't handle this situation well at all, especially in your case!) is that a lot of women have learned to communicate and deal with men from a sexual point of view. And alot of us do it without being aware of our behavior. We accept it as normal coping, mainly because our society condones it. It's all over TV, the movies, and is mainly the way that men will give us attention. Now, if the trauma you experienced early on had to do with - say not getting enough attention from your father - you might relate to men better that way in order to get attention. I think it's a subconcious thing. At least it was for me. I tended to flirt and relate from a more sexual point of view, until I read my psychiatric records and saw that he had written that in his notes.
Now, what pisses me off is that a therapist will put that in your notes, but not talk to the patient head on about it. It makes more sense to me to bring it to the patients attention as it's likely that she's not very aware that she's doing it. Once I realized that yes, I tended to do that, it allowed me to change my behavior. I think it's more appropriate to try and relate more as if you were a sister, or from a more neutral point of view. But he should have just brought it up that way instead of yelling at you. If I were yelled at by my therapist that would absolutely be my last visit. And, I would tell him that it was inappropriate behavior.
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by starlight on July 26, 2004, at 13:21:22
I totally agree with you Starlight; there isn't anything you've said in your last post that I can't relate to.
My therapist never seems to discuss anything head-on; I always have to bring stuff up, and then I always get this wishy-washy noncomittal reply; God only *knows* what he's written in his notes. Your strong language in your post was appropriate.
Damiana, kick butt girl! Your therapist was unprofessional.
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:43:34
In reply to For Starlight and Damiana, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
I don't want to get into any more trouble here than I have already ...
Ah well. Life.
Posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
In reply to For Starlight and Damiana, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 0:26:02
Hey Susan,
One thing I've thought of is that in order to keep you coming back, they might not address these types of issues, but instead they will 'wait for you to arrive at these conclusions on your own,' which to me seems much more time consuming, and it allows the behavior to continue. Addressing these issues head on seems like it would be much more efficient and be a catalyst for change. You can ask for a copy of your records...
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2004, at 17:45:49
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana, posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
Yes, starlight, I agree with you. Certainly that's been one of my impressions all along. Keep 'em coming back. How else to make money? And I know my therapist was certainly charging to the max. I've heard that some therapists keep their rates down in order to make health care accessible to a greater number of people. Not mine! Eight visits and I've chewed up my entire years' insurance worth.
Enough complaining already. As regards the records, it would probably make me very angry to see myself judged, in writing, by another. Even a *professional*. Which reminds me, does anyone besides li'l ol' me think that Damiana might have a case for PTSD *caused* by her therapist?????
Posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 19:02:12
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana, posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 14:27:13
I was reading a book yesterday which talked about this. It adds value only when you reach your conclusion by yourself. A therapist giving the solution does not work. That is not the point of therapy. It is to just ask the right questions, remove the blocks, and let you reach your own conclusions.
> Hey Susan,
> One thing I've thought of is that in order to keep you coming back, they might not address these types of issues, but instead they will 'wait for you to arrive at these conclusions on your own,' which to me seems much more time consuming, and it allows the behavior to continue. Addressing these issues head on seems like it would be much more efficient and be a catalyst for change. You can ask for a copy of your records...
> starlight
Posted by starlight on July 27, 2004, at 19:11:37
In reply to Re: For Starlight and Damiana ? starlight, posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2004, at 19:02:12
I think it's bunk. If my therapist had brought that to my attention, I would have evaluated it for myself and seen where yes, I have the tendency to do that and yes, I didn't have a good relationship with my father, and more importantly, no - I don't want to come across that way because it undermines me. But if someone you respect were to just make the suggestion - say by asking you the question "Have you ever noticed yourself behaving in this fashion"? You'd probably listen and evaluate it for yourself. When I go to a voice lesson, my teacher doesn't let me flop around endlessly trying to find my voice, she points me in the right direction and when I don't fully get it, she corrects me. I'm paying her good money to do just that, and she's not even close to what a doc charges. I think that's one of the main reasons why I've given up on therapy. It's a lot of money to spend to go driving down bad memory lane And to do all the guesswork yourself.
starlight
Posted by Jadah on July 27, 2004, at 19:56:39
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
Hi everyone, I really missed you all. Thank you so much for all of your feedback. I welcome it, whether it is agreeable or not. As ist stands, our affair continues as well as our therapeutic sessions (which, believe it or not has not been affected by our affair). Our affair is seperate issue. When I walk in his office I AM his patient. We put all else aside. I find it even easier to talk to him because we have become so much closer intimately. The level of love, trust, intimacy, openness.... has been inhanced. Your lover should be your best friend, someone who loves you for who you are unconditionally, for the good and bad. They are in essence your best friend. Although I dont necessarily think of him as my lover because of our dual relationship, it does carry all of these qualities. I am two essential people to my T (and myself), the object of affection and a patient....two people, two lives. He is human, being a therapist is his job, it does not exclude him from having feelings. In most cases I would agree that what we are doing is wrong. For many people such actions could be very hurtful and damaging. For me though, I am at a place in my life where I can handle the dual role. Both are theraputic for me. Though I know our affair will one day end, I am ok with that. What I get from him now is more than just sex. It has helped my self esteem (to know that someone could love and want me even though they know all the bad things about me, see my scars.... I believed I was untouchable. He kisses my scars, I dont feel so ashamed because of it now) This relationship has taught me to love, be loved, be vulnerable, to trust, to tolerate and challenge some of my own issues regarding relationships and men... I realize that men are not all bad and going to hurt me. I realize that my needs can get met by other people if I allow them in. I am learning to be more comfortable with my body and myself. I see him as a man in these situations, not my T. If I can learn all this from him then I could also learn to apply it to other relationships in my life. I know it will end, when I dont know, but when it does I believe I will feel good about the experience and I do believe that our relationship is strong and stable enough that we could maintain a gainful theraputic relationship. Much of this is able to be because of where I am in my own recovery. I look at this as a learning experience among other things. I know that he has never done this before. As I mentioned onece, he very much prided himself on his three major rules: no sex, no hurting yourself or others (him) during session. When we had our first night together he was very disappointed in himself for crossing his own lines and commented that he "threw those out the window, that was something I was proud of" he was also very distraught about cheating on his wife for the first time. He openly struggled with this and was not shy in letting me know where he was with it. We were both dealing with our actions. We worked through it by talking it through, and he worked on it, descretely, with his own alalyst. Obviously we both came out alright. I do not believe his marraige is strong, there are alot of problems. I let him deal with this whatever way he does, I do not put my two scents in. I feel guilty about his wife, but my love for him is stronger. He is huamn, he feels, thinks, acts, fantasizes, has beliefs, morals.....whatever, just like the next person. As a social worker I felt strong feelings for some of my clients. It is extremely difficult to ignore them as I did, but to not talk about the transference could damage the relationship....cause many secrets.... I am not saying what we are doing is right, and again I will say to you all not to do what I am doing. But I do believe that everyones threshold is different,and where I am at right now, I can handle this relationship no matter what does or does not happen. It is a learning process. Thank you all for your continued support and/or advice. I thank you for your honesty whether you see things my way or not. I hope you all are doing well. Take care of yourselves and keep writing! Susan47, I would like to talk to you. you had expressed interest in this. feel free to talk about anything or ask me questions. Welcome to the newbies.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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