![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 28 to 52 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elle2021 on January 10, 2004, at 1:04:00
In reply to Re: Bye bye happy mania, posted by Karen_kay on January 9, 2004, at 23:37:24
I definitely could get a job, I mean, once I have one, she isn't going to try to make me quit. But, she has ways of making me feel ultra-guilty for doing something that lessens her control. When I lived away from her, she used to call me everynight and if I was getting ready to go somewhere, she would get really upset and want me to stay home. Then, if she couldn't get me to stay home she would be like, "Well, don't stay out past x amount, and call me periodically." I would always tell her (very calmly), "Well, I'm not really sure what time I will be home, or if it will be before x, but tomrrow I will give you a call." That was never good enough for her. I feel like she really has some issues concerning her not leaving the house. I talked to her about seeing a doctor and she thinks I'm trying to be spiteful, but I'm not. I really do want her to see a doctor.
>And I'm not brave at all. I just blurt things out often.
Yes, hehe. I blurt things out too, but they never come out the way I want them to. :) You don't have to ask that question, I just thought it would be interesting. Does your therapist know you post here? Does he know which one you are?
>But, maybe you could find out about seeing a different therapist?
I could, he has offered to get me an appointment with this female therapist. Sometimes, I think I might do better with a female therapist. My appointments with my pdoc used to be once every two weeks, but they weren't on his regular schedule. Now I have a recurring app. But, it's only once a month and it doesn't amount to much more than a meds check. :( I will talk to him about it at my upcoming appointment. I just want him to like me. I have this need for him to like me and want me to be his daughter. But I have a feeling that he is more likely thinking, "I'm so happy my kids didn't turn out like this."
Giddily awaiting a response to the NON-ratty-haired Karen.
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 14:46:54
In reply to Start Small » Karen_kay, posted by Elle2021 on January 10, 2004, at 1:04:00
I'm sorry it has taken a while to get back to you. I attempted one yesterday and lost it. What's the deal, pickle? I just gave up after that...
Happy Birthday to you!
I'd send you a card, but I don't want to scare you by letting you know that I know where you live so early in the relationship. I'll wait until you are ready to know that I know where you live. Follow that? I'm not sure if I did either. Actually, upon reading that, it sounds rather frightening, doesn't it? Happy Birthday anyway :) Make it a great one!Maybe it would help you mum if you offered to go with her to see the doctor? It helps to have support and with you there it might help ease her distress of leaving the house as well...
Also, I'm sure that the reason she is so controlling is because she feels that she has almost no control. I mean, she has issues (as in fears, ect.) about leaving her house and all.If I were you, I'd ask for a referal to that therapist. If you don't really think your Pdoc is giving you all the help you need, what's the harm?
I often think that the wheels in my therapist's head are turning and he's think, "God help me if my daughter turns out like this!" Actually, I'm thinking the same thing. I hope his daughter doesn't turn out like me. I hope she's perfect and lovely (not that I don't think I'm lovely or anything) I just want his life to be perfect to make up for all the bad things and actions I throw at him during the session. He told me once that he and his wife got into a fight (I'm certain it was her fault :) and he left and slammed the door and on his way out he heard his daughter say, "Why is daddy so upset?" He came back inside and sat down with his daughter and talked to her and apologized for showing his temper in front of her. (Isn't that sweet?)I wish he was my daddy! See, you aren't alone!
Posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 21:37:36
In reply to Re: Start Small » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 14:46:54
I can already tell this post isn't going to be a good one...I try!
> I'm sorry it has taken a while to get back to you.
Thats okay, it takes me a while to respond to you because I save it for the last because I like to spend time writing it. Not that I don't try to make all the posts I write to other people well written. I guess you just seem to get "me" so I can blab on and on and on...well you get the picture, I hope.
>I'll wait until you are ready to know that I know where you live. Follow that? I'm not sure if I did either. Actually, upon reading that, it sounds rather frightening, doesn't it?
Hehe! Yes, rather frightening actually. :)
> Maybe it would help you mum if you offered to go with her to see the doctor? It helps to have support and with you there it might help ease her distress of leaving the house as well...
Thats a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Next time I broach the subject, I will try that angle. That could work.
> Also, I'm sure that the reason she is so controlling is because she feels that she has almost no control. I mean, she has issues (as in fears, ect.) about leaving her house and all.
Someone else suggested that very thing.
> If I were you, I'd ask for a referal to that therapist. If you don't really think your Pdoc is giving you all the help you need, what's the harm?
The harm is that then he might abandon me altogether, which I definitely don't want. But, my app. is Tuesday, so we will see how much courage I have that day to approach the subject.
> (Isn't that sweet?)
Yes, I wish he was my therapist... :(
> I wish he was my daddy! See, you aren't alone!
Good to know.
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 23:36:10
In reply to Not a very interesting post... » Karen_kay, posted by Elle2021 on January 11, 2004, at 21:37:36
So, I had half of a 14 page post all typed out and the FIRST freaking time I EVER spell checked a word with the handy, freaking, dandy spell checker provided by Dr. Bob, my computer froze up. Can you believe the horror? The audacity? See, I don't even know if that's spelled right. Can you check it for me and let me know?
Anyhoooo....
You were right, your last post wasn't interesting so I'll make a feeble (sp?) [see, I don't know why I care now, I never cared before] attempt to make this one twice as interesting to make up for the incredibly boring post you sent my way :)
I was touched that you said you save my posts for last. Last, like the last cookiein the cookie jar or the last cigarette in the pack. The one to be savoured. Or could you possibly mean that you dread replying to me. Like that last final that you just hate to have to study for, but you know you have to so you settle down, but only at the very last minute. Or the last five minutes of a movie that you just don't want to sit through, but you've already devote three hours of your time and sat with a lousy date who licked his fingers before reaching into your bucket of popcorn repeatedly and tried to rest his head on your shoulders even though you kept shrudging them. The date who left his cell phone on during the movie and even talked to his friend saying, "Yeah, I'm on a date with a girl who isn't that hot, but I'm trying to hook up with her friend." (I think we all know that guy, if not then I'd think you are that guy!) Yeah, that guy. Is that what you're comparing my posts to? That guy, that movie, that final? I surely hope not....I'll wait for your next reply to see.
And yes, I'd say I can be rather frightening at times. But, at times I can be fun as well. Take the good with the bad I guess. Weigh it out and see which you like I suppose? I'd have to say although I'm rather creepy (That's how I'd explain myself) I think I'm also witty and fun to be around or at least talk to. So, although I'm creepy I think that quirk (as I call it) suits me to a T!Another thing about your mum, do you think you can beat her to the punch. Maybe instead of her always hassling you about calling her, you could suggest calling her? Say, "Mum, I'll call you at 8." Maybe if you tell her you'll call her instead of her always insisting on you calling her she'll see that you are just as interested in making sure she knows that you are ok. And then maybe she'll lay off. Also, maybe you can suggest you two go places together. It'll get her out of the house more often. Just to the grocery or shopping together or just her taking you to class every once in a while may help her out. Now this may or may not work. No 30 day money back guarantee here. And if it does, don't come crawling back asking for more advice. The next time, it'll cost you, and my services run about the same as a therapist's. :)
I don't think your Pdoc will want to leave you if you ask to be referred to a therapist. Just broach the subject like this. "I'm intersted in starting therapy. Is there a therapist that you could refer me to or that you would suggest. I would also like to continue seeing you for my med check and having you as my Pdoc. Now, for that referral..." I'm sure that he would actually be pleased that you have decided to see a therapist. That's a step in the right directin ad I'm sure that he would be happy for you. There's no reason that he wouldn't be able to see you for your med check. No reason at all, as long as he doesn't do therapy. If he does do therapy for you that would be a problem. If it is strictly meds, it wouldn't be a problem at all!
I'd like for my therapist to be your therpist too. Unless you're prettier than I am. Or a better client. Or have better hair. Or nicer nails. Or progress faster. Or have less issues. Or a better daughter. Or don't have a tatoo. Or are less resistant. Or what if he likes you better? What if he returns your calls more than mine?See now this could cause problems...... If you became his client, just don't tell me, OK??? :)
And if you're a better daughter, PLEASE don't tell me, OK????? Other than that, I'm ok with it!!!! :)
Now nerviously awaiting your post,
Karen
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:04:32
In reply to *@#$^^ Computer!, posted by Karen_kay on January 11, 2004, at 23:36:10
>The audacity?
I believe that is correct... :)
> I was touched that you said you save my posts for last. Last, like the last cookiein the cookie jarMore like the last Vicodin in the bottle...jk
> And yes, I'd say I can be rather frightening at times. But, at times I can be fun as well. Take the good with the bad I guess.
Well I think your posts are pretty funny. I like reading them cause they make me laugh and even when I'm upset or irritated I can't help myself. I'm sure my family wonders what is so funny!
> Another thing about your mum, do you think you can beat her to the punch.
Well that I have tried, and it seems to encourage her to call me more often. Not that I mind talking to her, but I wish we could have a normal conversation.
>No 30 day money back guarantee here. And if it does, don't come crawling back asking for more advice. The next time, it'll cost you, and my services run about the same as a therapist's. :)
Oh great, well then I can't afford you! My pdoc charges 270 dollars an hour. Ridiculous!!
Another thing that scares me is that he might offer to do the therapy himself, which would be a bad idea for me. I already can't bring myself to tell him anything. But, I like his reassurance. Like last time he goes, "Well, just remember that I said it's going to be okay." I just sheepishly smiled, I didn't know what to say. And then he goes, "Not like that matters or makes a difference huh?" But it made a big difference. I wish I could have told him so, but I didn't know what to say. I guess I could have said, it's nice to be reassured, but then he might have said, well why do you need to be reassured etc...
And I get really scared before sessions with him. My face has this awful habit of turning bright red and I shake cause I'm so nervous. He always asks me if he should turn the heat up or if I'm cold. No I'm not cold, just nervous! So now, I try to make a point of sitting still on the couch, but it only works sometimes. I also trip over my words. Like, um, er, eh... Stuff like that. Or else I forget words altogether and used technical words like, thingie... ;) I think he must think I am some kind of basketcase. Oh well, I think I am too! :)Don't worry, if I went to your therapist he would probably think we were related or something! haha, I'm just joking!
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 12, 2004, at 13:37:11
In reply to Re: *@#$^^ Computer!, posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 0:04:32
The last Vicodin, eh? I'll take that! Come to think of it, I sure could use one right about now. I'm thinking I'm going to take my anxiety medication before my appointment with my therapist. Now, this should be interesting. I just might go in there blabbing on and on. I so have a habit of looking and the clock when I'm in there and he has a habit of saying, "Don't worry, we still have 45 minutes left." Yes, it begins that early in the session. Funny, I used to look forward to the sessions but as soon as I got in the office and sat down I would look at the clock and think, "Can I set it fast?" Even though when time is up I don't want to leave, I just don't want to talk either. Maybe if I take my meds first (is that abuse, even though I do get anxious before I go in?) I'll staple my hands to the chair and he'll need a crane to get me out of his blasted office! See how he likes that. I'm going to tell him this time that I like him, not sexually or anything, but that I think he's doing a good job. I don't ever tell him that and I think my dream is also telling me that I should give him some positive reinforcement as well. The thing is, I really make a good boss. Just with him, I can't seem to tell him how much I appreciate him. Or how much I think I need him. I'm scared to. :( Do I have to? I think my dream says I should. But it is just a stupid dream. But I don't remember stupid dreams, I only remember important ones. Help me Elle!
Yeah, I'm glad you get a kick out of my pain and suffering. I'm glad someone does. If it helps, I'll post more of my emotional turmoil for you to laugh and point your finger at and say, "Ha ha, I'm glad I'm not her! She sure is stupid. She doesn't brush her hair. She probably doesn't shower either. And she can't match her clothes properly. I bet she has bunions (huh is that spelled right?) and camel toe too!" Yeah keep laughing my friend we can't all be perfect like you! :)
I checked and my Pdoc charges 320 an hour. I never realized it was so high, but I did the math and for a 20 minute med check, it runs 80 something. Maybe there's a break in price for an hour session or something??? I don't think he's ever charged me that much and I know we've ran over 20 minutes many times, but it is always his fault. My therapist charges 120 something I think an hour for therapy. But I live in a small town so the price is according to the demand (?? ha! I think more people in this town would seriously benefit from intensive therapy!).I don't think he would question why his reassurance would be important to you. He is your Pdoc after all. Do you think if he offered to do you therapy that you still wouldn't be able to open up? If he offered, then you should say that you need an apt every week or every other week at least. Once a month isn't enough for you, if that's what you think. And I too am at a loss for words many times (GASP)! It happens. And I prefer not to use any type of technical words for fear that I use the wrong one or use it in the wrong context. No way! I just use common words like "thingey" too! "I feel thingey for you" ect.... He gets the picture.
I have a feeling too that if you were to see my therapist he may think we were related. I wouldn't take that as an insult though. I'd just say you were my third cousin, twice removed :) But again, you have to do your best so that he likes me better than you, ok? We do seem to be on the same wavelength and share some similar dx. Coincidence?
My friend, who recently moved commented to me that the only support she has right now is from her two best friends (me and Shorty), both of which happen to be crazy. I kinda thought that was funny.
Posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 18:47:17
In reply to Re: *@#$^^ Computer!, posted by Karen_kay on January 12, 2004, at 13:37:11
I don't think taking a Klonopin or something that will relax you before a session is abuse. I mean, it's prescribed to calm us down right? I have done that before, the only thing is, it seems to have a different effect on me. Instead of getting all talkative, I just completely shut down. I just listen and nod at everything my doctor says. But it might be different for you.
I'm always too embarrassed to look at the clock, I don't want him to think I'm bored or something. But, when he's not looking, I look!About your dream:
So, I think what your saying is that you feel you need to show him how much you appreciate what he's done/doing for you. I'm trying to think of a few ways you could do that. I support the idea of coming right out and telling him about the dream. Then he can analyze it. I'm actually really curious about it because I think it means something about your progress.Oh Karen, I do not get a kick out of your pain and suffering. It's just the way you express yourself just makes me laugh (in a good way). So yes, keep the troubles coming this way. :) I didn't mean to imply I was perfect (far from it really). My pdoc keeps asking me what I think would happen if I said something stupid or did something really dumb that was less than perfect. He keeps reminding me that people will still love me, etc. But I can't say I believe that 100%.
320 dollars an hour!! I thought mine was bad. His rates are all listed on the billing sheet. It's really specific too. It has time increments (sp? no, I'm not going to spell check this so you better just figure it out) listed on it with how much it costs per every 10 minutes. It seems so callous in a way. I will talk to you for 10 minutes in exchange for $xx.xx But I guess like someone else on here said, they aren't your friends. But I wish he was my friend. And somebody else said something about getting hugs from their pdoc (was that you?). I don't get hugs. We started with handshakes, but that felt too impersonal and hugs feel too intimate. So...I feel like Goldilocks, looking for that "just right" feeling. Haven't found it yet.
And BTW, nothing wrong with a crazy friend or two or three or four...
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 12, 2004, at 19:41:07
In reply to Meds before sessions, posted by Elle2021 on January 12, 2004, at 18:47:17
I'm going to go for the meds before the session. Let's see what happens, shall we? What could possbily go wrong? [She says and then: I get there and realize I've forgotten to dress completely.
Or I tell him that I NEED him and I post on this message board about his mistakes and misgivings. He decides to later look up the message board. He obviously picks me out with little problems. He reads all of my posts and knows what I really think about him (which are good things), not to mention his wife (uh oh!). He holds grudges against me because I say bad things about him occassionally and because I open up to you more than I open up to him. He confronts me with his newfound knowledge and I am speachless and begin crying for forgiveness, screaming, "I'm so sorry Daddy! Don't abandon me. I'll tell you my secrets too." He doesn't believe me and decides to terminate therapy. I ask for a referral, and he declines. I later try to get an appointment with other therapists, yet none will see me. My whole "therapy career" is ruined. All because I decided to take anxiety medication before a session.Hmmmmm. Yeah, I still think I'll try it.
I'm always looking at the clock. Last week, I went to grab my coffee and decided against it and my therapist said, "You can drink your coffee if you want." And I said, "Yeah, I know I can. I just didn't want it." Then he said, "Where you looking at the clock but didn't want to be rude?" And I said, "I look at the clock all the time and you comment on how much time we have left during every session. If I want to look at the clock, I'll look at the clock. I won't try to disguise it. I just thought I wanted my coffee and realized I didn't. OK?" And that was the truth. Sheesh! Soemtimes I think I want a drink, then realize I don't. Honestly! Don't look too much into it. I look at the clock several times each session, why would I try to disguise it? It's jsut being curious! Why would I suddenly change?
Well, the dream means much more than that. But, it also means that as well. And I already told him the dream when I called him, so I can't get out of discussing it with him. I'm thinking this is what I want to say, "Well, Bubba, you're my tour guide in a foreign country and you help decide whether I have a nice trip or a bad one, based on what I tell you I'd like to see. I'd prefer to have a nice one. But, you're leading me. I haven't been here before, so be careful please :) And thank you for the journey, in advance.
(Does that sound too cliche?)Also, I know that if you said some really stupid things it would make me feel better personally. It wouldn't make me feel so alone atleast. I feel like maybe I'm the only one who says or does stupid things all the time. Maybe if someone else on this message board screwed up every once in a while I could be like, "OK, finally! Karen's not the only one who messes up! Thank you Frita!" Sheesh! You guys set an awful high standard, I swear! For crying out loud!
As for your Pdoc, maybe you could run up and hug him one day. What would happen? What do you think he would do? I have a mental image of me running up to my therapist and sitting on his lap >) He told me once that inappropriate would be if I sat on his lap and rubbed his head. Maybe I'll try that my last day? I'm sick, already planning what I will do on my last day..... But, maybe I'll see what I can get away with Wednesday. Maybe I won't be able to either. That dream really upset me. I may even start crying. :( Then he may start crying. Then I'd have to smack him, seriously.
Posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 5:23:43
In reply to Re: Meds before sessions » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 12, 2004, at 19:41:07
Well, I am having my pre-session jitters, which will soon turn into in-session shakes. I did however, paint my nails a shade of very feminine pink (just for my pdoc). They had better not chip before my appointment. And about my app. I got it changed to later in the day. I mean, really, he was expecting me to get there at 10 am (and on time no less). Is he kidding himself? I can't get there that early. Of course he knows that. I think he gets really mad at me sometimes because I get there like 10-15 minutes late and I keep him waiting. So, then he tries to get back at me by making me sit at least 5 minutes in the waiting room. Doesn't he know that all the time he's waiting, I'm waiting too. I'm trying to get myself together enough to come see him.
Know what else he does? He constantly analyzes how I move while I'm sitting there. Much like the coffee example you cited. He will note how "jittery" I seem. He even said one day that I looked, "pinchy." What does that mean?! I didn't ask, I didn't want to know. I know it had something to do with me looking like I hadn't gotten enough sleep. He also said the reason I'm thin is because I'm overly-fidgety. He said it must burn off a lot of calories. Hmm...I wonder about that.
I think if I ran up and hugged him he would probably push me away or be very taken aback by it. Then we would have to have a huge discussion on it. He knows that my OCD limits what contact I have with people, but I think I would like to hug him. He looks clean.
Are you okay to drive on meds? If not, maybe you shouldn't take them until you get to the app. Perhaps, try to get to the app. early so they have time to kick in (only takes about 15 mins right?).
This dream we're talking about. Is this the same one where you dreamed something bad happened to him or is this a different one altogether? I'm sorry, I don't follow things very well do I! I think it's cause I don't get enough sleep and this medication makes me kinda tired. Do explain!
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:07
In reply to My lovely nails » Karen_kay, posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 5:23:43
My nails are prettier than yours are! Na na na na na na! I let the people doing my nails paint then. Usually I get the French tip, but I think I may go for a striking red this time. What do you think? I have to get gel on mine, with tips put on, as I chew my nails utill they bleed. Lovely, eh?
I'm never late for my appointments (except once, but it was 8 am! Come on!). I used to be late for classes, ect all the time. A habit I picked up from my mother. When I started college, I got in the habit of arriving 15 minutes early for every class and it seems to have stuck with me now. I hate the wait. And it is even worse when he is late. I feel like I'm being punished for something I did wrong in the last session. My Pdoc is always late. ALWAYS! At least 15 minutes late. I don't usually mind but my next appointment is scheduled around my classes and if he's running really late, I may miss a German class. I'll have to jsut walk out. Don't think I won't. I've done it several times in the past with my old Pdoc and MD. But, I have better self control now though. MAYBE :)
Why are you so jittery when you see him? Does he make you nervous? Maybe you should just fess up. Obviously it is apparent to him. If you are that nervous, he wouldn't be a good suit to do your therapy once a week. Unless your nervousness went down over time.
I think I'm a better driver on meds. I have a lead foot the way it is. :) They make me slow down a bit. I'm going to try it. I'm just afraid he'll notice I'm messed up and say something about it. "Are you abusing your meds. You used to have a pill problem, ect" I don't need accusations. That's why I'm very hesitant to take meds at all now. That's why I waited so long to get the anxiety meds.
Yup,, it is the same dream. I am afraid to tell him that I feel in a way that I need him. It's a healthy attachment. I don't need him to get through the day or anything like that. And I don't bombard him with phone calls. I'mjust afraid that if I tell him, he'll think that it is like that. Or it may turn into that. You know, with the whole "unstable relationship, bs.." BAH!
Posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 18:27:20
In reply to Re: No, My lovely nails » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:07
Well if you read my post to Dinah, then you know that I had one really bad, terrible session. I was so curious to know what my pdoc was thinking, that I just came right out and asked. He said he thinks I'm mostly schizoid/schizotypal with borderline traits and OCD. I thought I was gonna start crying when he told me, but I held back my tears. I haven't cried in front of him and I don't want to start now. I wish I didn't know now. And the worst part is, I know he's probably right. I'm so serious when I say that I really wish I had never asked. I can fully understand why pdocs don't label clients, because it's upsetting. And to make matters worse, I set the app. up with the therapist, and my pdoc goes, "I doubt that your therapy will last long, you don't like to be pushed." Well, I don't know about that. I don't think he knows how bad I want to get past all this. I don't even think he takes me seriously. I have so much more to tell you, but I just haven't got the energy right now. I'm gonna go lay down for awhile, I need some sleep. Talk to you soon.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 19:24:28
In reply to Bad therapy session, posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 18:27:20
You've repeated almost verbatim what my therapist said about me!!!!
No! Wait! It was verbatim!
Except the part about the therapy not lasting. Mine has lasted nearly nine years. And I'm a happy little therapy client and he says I'm nowhere near his most annoying client! And that he both likes me and cares deeply about me! (And I almost believe him.)
Don't lose hope my friend.
a) He might be completely wrong. (Even my therapist now admits he might be wrong about the schizotypal - I'm down to traits)
b) It's not the end of the world if he's not. I cried for days and it set my therapy back years. But you've got me! You can come right on over to my corner of the internet, we can get some ice cream, cream of wheat, or white chocolate banana whipped top pie. I've got all three, and I'm happy to share. I'll tell you all the wonderful things about being OCD, schizotypal, with borderline traits (and I've got two others that you don't have! gotcha beat!).
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 5:07:51
In reply to Re: (((((ELLE))))) MY SISTER!!!!!!, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 19:24:28
Dinah-
I hope he is wrong. I always kinda suspected I fit that category, but since he never really said anything about it, I dismissed the idea. I guess it's the way he described it to me that really hurt and made me so scared. He was like well (in a very doctorly voice), theres something that we have, and some doctors think that it's a sort of a borderline type case of super-mild schizophrenia. Now, with me, schizophrenia is like a bad word. I can't hear that without getting panicky because I had myself so convinced I was schizophrenic and thats why I went and saw him in the first place. But he goes, I haven't fully decided yet, but thats what I'm thinking. So does that mean I can fool him? Like I can just go in there all normal and happy and make him think I'm fine. Not like that would help, I'd still be this way. I just don't like it that he thinks there's something wrong, even though there is. Honestly (and this could be denial, I'm not sure) I wonder whether he just doesn't have enough info to go one way or the other with any diagnosis. He even said to me today, that he learns something different everytime I visit. So, maybe there is something I haven't told him yet. Anyway, his comment about my app. with the therapist really hurt my feelings. "I don't think it will last long." Well (huff huff). I half-way want to prove him wrong just by going even if I really do turn out not to like it. Oh, I'm just feeling really sorry for myself right now. I'll be better in about a week (or at least somewhat recovered). I really do wish I had never found this out. I liked my ignorance much better. And by the way Dinah, of course I like you. And if being schizoid/schizotypal is like you, then I don't mind a bit, because I find you to be intelligent and very caring. Thanks for the support.
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 8:31:50
In reply to Bad therapy session, posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 18:27:20
Elle, I'm here. But, I'm SOOOOO sorry! I have to get ready for class. I'll write to you after I get done with that junk. I'm sorry that he just sprang that on you. And I'm also sorry about the whole "Having nothing vested in you" BS!!! ARGH!! But, I'll have more for you in a few hours hun..... Wish I could be here now. But I can't skip class, as much as I'd like to. I'm thinking about you and just know the dx means nothing. It doesn't change anything. It's just a way to describe your symptoms....That's all for now. Future installments to come... Hang in there.. It will get better... We'll get through this together :) PROMISE!!
Karen
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 9:00:52
In reply to Re: (((((ELLE))))) MY SISTER!!!!!! » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 5:07:51
Argggh. I wrote you a long post and my computer ate it. And I need to be at work. But I'll give you an abbreviated version, because I really do remember how bad I felt. At least I could yell at my therapist about it, but that doesn't sound like an option for you.
I think you need to do some research on the internet about schizoid/schizotypal. Your doctor's description was overly alarming and too negative. I can't tell you it's a flattering diagnosis but it's not that bad.
First off, though they are in the same cluster, they aren't the same disorder. Nor do they have the same relationship to schizophrenia. I think at one time, the thinking was different, but studies didn't bear that out.
Schizoid personality disorder is closer to Asperger's. Think loner or maybe geek. They don't want or need companionship. They are indifferent to praise or criticism. Frankly that doesn't sound like you, from what I've seen on the board. You don't seem indifferent to criticism, and if anything you seem more than usually empathetic to others.
Schizotypal personality disorder is seen more often in relatives of schizophrenics. That's probably a big reason I got the diagnosis. Although honestly, my relatives may well have been bipolar. Back then they lumped any delusional behavior under schizophrenia. But people with schizotypal personality disorder don't commonly become schizophrenic. I've heard Shirley Maclaine used as an example. The example in "DSM-IV Made Easy" was far more extreme, and enough to convince me I don't have the disorder, even if I am a bit eccentric.
I think I got the diagnosis because I dress in long T-shirt dresses with knee socks and tennies, frequently wear my hair in two braids or ponytails, sometimes have a flat expression (but not often - moreso before I got in touch with my feelings), said I worried about my parents when they were on a trip so that nothing bad would happen to them (which sounds sort of OCD to me), and read more than I talk (often historical fiction) so that my language is sometimes arcane. For myself, I think eccentric would cover me, possibly schizotypal traits. But if I were schizotypal it wouldn't be the end of the world.
http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/schizotypalpd.html
http://www.hsc.wvu.edu/aap/aap-car/videos.htm
Borderline traits aren't awful, although it's probably better not to mention to potential mental health professionals. There is unreasonable prejudice out there. I walked into my therapist's office with "Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder" by Marsha Linehan and pointed out all the things that matched how I felt, and sometimes how I acted. It helps me understand myself better.
As for not being able to maintain a long term therapeutic relationship, that depeds a lot on the therapist. Tell him to refer you to a decent one. If you don't like the one he refers you to, keep looking. They are out there. I don't handle being pushed well either. And so what? I am far more easily led than pushed, and I see that as a character strength, not a weakness.
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 11:21:45
In reply to Re: (((((ELLE))))) MY SISTER!!!!!! » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 5:07:51
(((Elle)))
I can't relate as well as Dinah has to your pain over this diagnosis, but might I say that a diagnosis, IMO, is just a category that they try to fit you in for paperwork's sake, and from the many people I've met online and in person with various diagnoses (and many who clearly had something wrong with them but were never diagnosed with anything!), I don't know that you should allow this diagnosis to influence you at all if you can help it. You are the same wonderful person today, Elle, that you were before you knew the label that has been applied to you. A different doc might have given you a different label. It doesn't change who YOU really are!
I guess mental health professionals have to have a way to categorize - I know insurance requires it at the least - but at least in the case of my pdoc and my T, they don't place that much emphasis on someone's dx. So perhaps this T won't either.
You are a unique individual, Elle. You are who you are, you have certain traits, some wonderful and some that are not so desirable to you - so does EVERYONE! Your pdoc is not a fortune teller (you should give him a copy of the list of cognitive distortions and ask him which one of those he can apply to his statement that therapy won't last long for you!) - he can't possibly know how therapy will go for you.
Don't let this get you down! Don't let this change one positive belief about yourself, period!!!
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 15:23:53
In reply to Re: (((((ELLE))))) MY SISTER!!!!!! » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 9:00:52
Dinah, I think you sense of fashion sounds wonderful.... And personally, I think too much emphasis is being placed on quirks...... As I see it much of what you explained can be seen as personality quirks to me, IMHO. Granted, I haven't read up on that particular dx. But, the vocab choice, ect seems like logical explanations to me. ARG! This is what gets me. Being dx BPD and all, but the spectrum of the disorder doesn't seem to matter much. I don't have suicidal idealation much since I haven't been depressed. And I don't have instable interpersonal relationships (or is that intrApersonal, Hmmmm..) since I have been in a relationship for 5 years.... But, these *quirks* can also be explained by childhood trauma... ARG!!!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:02:52
In reply to Bad therapy session, posted by Elle2021 on January 13, 2004, at 18:27:20
(((Elle)))
I'm sorry to hear about your news. But hun, don't let it get you down. Or try not to let it get you down at least. Research every thing you can about this dx. It's important to know everything you can about it.
I'm really sorry he wasn't very supportive either. Maybe it's time to find a therapist who will be supportive. Especially to help you deal with the fear/enxiety/ect that you have right now. And of course WE are right here to help you. I know Dinah's here for you, and she's very knowledgable and supportive. (Pardon me Dinah for speaking for you, hope you don't mind :)
I'm not sure how to respond. I don't want to be funny when you're hurting. I'm coming up with an agenda for our slumber party at PBS. We can have fun at the slumber party. Maybe group sex with Bean, would that cheer you up???? *Weak smile*
I love you hun, don't put too much emphasis on a dx. I'm trying to learn that with the BPD dx. It crushed me at first, but I'm learning that a dx doesn't really mean much. It's just a list of words/symptoms to describe what may or may not fit you. Hang on hun, helps coming. (((Elle)))
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:04:03
In reply to Re: (((((ELLE))))) MY SISTER!!!!!! » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 9:00:52
Hi Dinah,
Just want to say right off, thanks for the support.>At least I could yell at my therapist about it, but that doesn't sound like an option for you.
No, he's pretty firm and I think I know his personality well enough to say confidently, that if I started yelling at him, he would just ask me to leave. But, I have trouble with perceptions so...
Okay, and although SOME of the traits of that diagnosis fit me, I don't think the dx as a whole fits me. I guess I am highly paranoid (which probably comes across in my writing). But there aren't any schizophrenic people in my family. Mum and her sister both have serious social phobia issues, but no schizophrenia. I'm not as familiar with my dad's side of the family, but I know that none of his brothers or sisters have schizophrenia. And having schizophrenia is my BIGGEST fear. It truely terrifies me. I can't watch movies about it or anything. I'm in a abnormal psych class right now, and I am dreading studying it. Maybe I will find out in advance when those days are, and I will plan to be absent. I don't want to start crying in class, or worse yet, have a panic attack in front of everyone.
>They don't want or need companionship.Doesn't fit me. I crave companionship, just don't think I'm adequate to attain or maintain it. Plus, I'm too scared to have those kinds of relationships.
>They are indifferent to praise or criticism.
Definitely doesn't fit me. I crave praise. Now criticism, it does bother me, but has never gotten to me. I mean it hurts me, but I have this ability to completely dissociate from it and pretend like it was never said.
>Frankly that doesn't sound like you, from what I've seen on the board. You don't seem indifferent to criticism, and if anything you seem more than usually empathetic to others.
Thanks, I think he's wrong and I'm going to prove it.
>even if I am a bit eccentric.I don't think I'm eccentric really. But I do have some of what he termed "magical thinking." But, I don't think I'm delusional. Paranoid, definitely, delusional, no.
> I think I got the diagnosis because I dress in long T-shirt dresses with knee socks and tennies, frequently wear my hair in two braids or ponytails.
Okay, I know Karen doesn't think I'm too "up" on fashion (even though I am :) but, what is wrong with t-shirt dresses and knee socks? Sounds completely 100% normal to me. And your hair sounds really cute.
>said I worried about my parents when they were on a trip so that nothing bad would happen to them (which sounds sort of OCD to me)
Definitely OCD.
>and read more than I talk (often historical fiction) so that my language is sometimes arcane.
If anything, it has only made you more eloquent.
For myself, I think eccentric would cover me, possibly schizotypal traits. But if I were schizotypal it wouldn't be the end of the world.
No, and I don't mean to imply that it's the end of the world (even if I do turn out to embody the dx). I just think he's got the wrong diagnosis for me. I definitely have some of the traits, but not the dx.
> Borderline traits aren't awful, although it's probably better not to mention to potential mental health professionals.I think borderline traits are pretty bad sometimes. I think this is the proper diagnosis. It's what he first suggested. I match the criteria almost completely.
There is unreasonable prejudice out there. I walked into my therapist's office with "Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder" by Marsha Linehan and pointed out all the things that matched how I felt, and sometimes how I acted. It helps me understand myself better.
I think I'm going to do the same thing.
>I don't handle being pushed well either. And so what? I am far more easily led than pushed, and I see that as a character strength, not a weakness.
He gets frustrated with me because if I feel like I'm being pushed too far (like if he's trying to get at something I don't want to talk about) then I just shut up completely. Thats why he thinks therapy won't last. Well, if that is the case, then I would just like to know WHAT HE SUGGESTS I DO. Doesn't he want me to get better? Well????
Elle :)
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:05:29
In reply to Yelling, not an option, posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:04:03
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:08:10
In reply to Re: Forgive me for jumping in, please? » Elle2021, posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 11:21:45
Penny,
Feel free to jump in anytime! I appreciate any and all support and feedback. Thanks so much for the kind words. I'm not convinced I fit this category, and I'm going to point that out next session. :)
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:38:27
In reply to Re: Bad therapy session » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:02:52
> Or try not to let it get you down at least. Research every thing you can about this dx. It's important to know everything you can about it.
Yes, especially if I am going to prove him wrong. I do not fit this category. Some of the traits yes, overall no. I refuse to believe this.
> I love you hun, don't put too much emphasis on a dx.:) Thanks!
I'm trying to learn that with the BPD dx. It crushed me at first, but I'm learning that a dx doesn't really mean much. It's just a list of words/symptoms to describe what may or may not fit you. Hang on hun, helps coming. (((Elle)))
Thats a good way of looking at it. Sorry this post isn't much, but I just don't have much energy right now. I'm feeling kinda drained.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:43:13
In reply to Yelling, not an option, posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 18:04:03
Elle, I think you're absolutely right. As I pointed out to my therapist, OCD itself involves magical thinking, undoing rituals, and some things that might be considered schizotypal if the client doesn't also have OCD. If they do, then that covers it pretty well.
In what ways do you think you're paranoid? That can cover soooo much territory. If you aren't delusional in your paranoia, you could just consider it self protective (possibly based on the fact that your mother transmitted the idea that the world is a scary place).
Most people fit some of the criteria of most every personality disorder. It's a matter of degree. That's why I think I'm eccentric, not schizotypal.
And like you, I identify far more with borderline than I do with schizoid or schizotypal, although my personality testing was more in line with schizotypal. Linehan's conception just fits me to a T. I just don't do many of the actions, except with my therapist.
Next time he gets frustrated with you clamming up because he pushes too hard, remind him it's his fault for pushing too hard. With a better therapist you'll be fine. Just look for a patient one. If there's one quality my therapist has that makes him the right fit for me, it's that he keeps coming in, is just there consistently, and doesn't get so frustrated that he sends me away. It's amazing what just that can do for me.
You'll be just fine, Elle. I can see you recovering from the shock already. You're way ahead of my schedule. :)
Posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 0:17:24
In reply to Re: Yelling, not an option » Elle2021, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:43:13
All right, here, I went to a website and copy and pasted this below info. Let's go step by step and see how many of these traits I actually fit.
This is from the UK DSM, because I had trouble trying to find the American one.1. Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family.
I desire them, just don't know how to have them.
2. Almost always chooses solitary activitiesPartially true, depends on my mood.
3. Has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person.
Not true, if I was married I would have sex.
4. Takes pleasure in few, if any, activitiesI like a lot of activities.
5. Lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of othersOkay, this one fits. I don't have any really close friends and I am extremely guarded on what I tell people. But as for the criticism, I already explained that earlier. I am affected by it.
6. Shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity
Well, now this one could go either way. Sometimes I really emotional and other times I keep everything in.
So how many is that? Not enough for a diagnosis.
And, now for the thoughts section:
Typical Thoughts and Beliefs of the Schizoid/Schizotypal Personalities
“I hate being tied to other people.”
I don't hate it per se, just not overly fond of it.
“My privacy is more important to me than being close to others.”
True
“It’s best not to confide too much in others.”
True
“Relationships are always messy.”
Usually
“I manage best on my own and set my own standards.”
Yup
“Intimate relationships are unimportant to me.”
NO!! They are important and I want them.
Okay, so more of the thoughts fit, but not the actual traits. Good enough for me, I don't have this.> As I pointed out to my therapist, OCD itself involves magical thinking, undoing rituals, and some things that might be considered schizotypal if the client doesn't also have OCD. If they do, then that covers it pretty well.
Yes, OCD does involve magical thinking! How come he can't put that together??
In what ways do you think you're paranoid?
Well, I think it would kinda embarrassing to explain, plus it might give me away if my pdoc reads these boards. Hey, thats a paranoid thought right there. I guess I just always feel like people are talking bad about me, or like things are directed at me, even when other people hear the same thing and say they aren't directed at me.
>If you aren't delusional in your paranoia
Was slightly delusional ONCE, very briefly.
And yes, my mum was extremely over-protective.
> Most people fit some of the criteria of most every personality disorder. It's a matter of degree. That's why I think I'm eccentric, not schizotypal.I don't think your schizotypal either.
> And like you, I identify far more with borderline
Definitely the case with me. I fit just about every trait, but since I don't tell him how I "feel" he doesn't know all of that. Maybe thats why the incorrect dx.
> Next time he gets frustrated with you clamming up because he pushes too hard, remind him it's his fault for pushing too hard.
Well, usually I just sit and say nothing...even when he asks me questions...
>With a better therapist you'll be fine. Just look for a patient one.
I hope this new one will be patient with me. I am going to go in with an open mind.
> You'll be just fine, Elle. I can see you recovering from the shock already. You're way ahead of my schedule. :)
Oh it's just all my bad defense mechanisms, they do the trick everytime and I recover speedily. :) Just kidding!
Elle
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 19:42:31
In reply to Re: Yelling, not an option (Long) » Dinah, posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 0:17:24
It is important to remember that certain aspects of personality disorders fit evreyone to a certain degree. As I was reading that I started thinking, "Oh my! Oh my! That's me! That's is so me!" I'm going to now go and ask my therapist if it's possible that I have that instead of BPD. Or with? Nooooooo... I do this everytime I read something, a few weeks ago I was conviced I had antisocial personality disorder. He said I didn't. But what if this time he doesn't say no?
But, the point I'm trying to make is that people can identify with all aspects to a certain degree. I think the reason I can is because of emotional numbing in part and the fact that I tend to disbelieve praise.
I think that once you are set up with a therapist that you feel more able to open up with and to, you'll progress nicely. And I can't wait to see it happen (and hear the things you tell your therapist!!! I can't wait for that. Maybe I won't be so embarrassed!). Also, I'm proud at how you've already set out to prove him wrong! A girl after my own heart!
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