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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 4:26:20
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Hi Crushed,
Many therapists have supervisors - therapists who supervise their cases and consult with them on sticky points. Is your therapist under supervision?
I'd ask her about this - 1) does she have a supervisor, 2) if so, has she discussed your case with said supervisor, 3) if so, what has supervisor suggested?
I wouldn't see a therapist who isn't in supervision. (Actually, now I won't see any therapist without official real-time observation AND videotaping of the session, but that's my stuff.)
Your therapist is really jerking you around. I'm sorry you're going through this.
Posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 9:17:15
In reply to OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 18:40:13
Dear Crushed: I've been reading your posts about your therapist for quite a while, and have wanted to respond but wasn't registered till recently. I really do feel that your T's behavior is not therapeutic (!). Dinah's right, the "sessions on credit" is another major red flag, especially added to the confusing signals she's sending in other areas. I think it's vitally important for you to arrange a consultation with another therapist and explain completely and honestly the
confusion you are experiencing in therapy. Please don't let money be an obstacle to this---it's just too important! Your well-being is too important! If you find you cannot bring yourself to speak to another therapist, then I think you really must bring this all out into the open with your T, discuss it fully. For one thing, bringing it out in the open will demystify it considerably, and your T's responses will give you a better sense of where she's coming from---
if she turns out to be as confused as you are by
your relationship, then I definitely think you should consider finding another therapist, as painful and as difficult as that may be. Please take care of yourself.
henrietta
Posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this???, posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 9:17:15
I should just clarify the circumstances around the sessions on credit: she DID tell me at one point that she trusts me and that i can owe her money for as long as i need to. but right now, the reason i can't pay her is that my insurance company owes me thousands of dollars and they're giving me the runaround, holding on to my money. so, i'll be able to pay her as soon as those xxxxers get their xxxx together. (they make me sooooo mad.)
thus, i really don't think her letting me owe her money is crossing any lines, but let me know if you think otherwise, given these circumstances.
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 10:12:55
In reply to sessions on credit, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
I must admit that I don't know the theory behind it. I've just read lists of questions that therapists should ask themselves if they fear they're having problems with boundaries and that's one of them. So I don't really know.
Posted by henrietta on December 31, 2003, at 10:16:45
In reply to sessions on credit, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 9:25:56
That makes me feel a bit less concerned, yes. But it occurred to me that it might be a good idea to offer to pay her even a token amount ($10.00 per session?)until the insurance mess is cleared up. This sounds crazy, maybe, but I wonder if the lack of any financial element in your interaction could be contributing to what appears to be HER confusion about the nature of your relationship ---maybe she's feeling, somewhere in there, that it's more of a friendship than a professional relationship. The money exchange may be mostly symbolic, but I think it's an important symbol. That said, however, the other circumstances still trouble me...
hen
Posted by Speaker on December 31, 2003, at 14:06:23
In reply to Re: sessions on credit » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 10:12:55
Dinah,
You are so full of information and I appreciate your input so much. You mentioned a list of questions you have read that T's should ask themselves. Do you recall where you read that list?
Posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
In reply to Re: sessions on credit » Dinah, posted by Speaker on December 31, 2003, at 14:06:23
Well, I saw her today. I was really scared. When I arrived, she said I seemed anxious. She said that she worried all yesterday after I left that she had overwhelmed me. I said, "You did." She said, "I crossed your boundary, didn't I?" and I agreed.I told her that I loved the CD but that it made me very, very sad. I said it was tantalizing and confusing for me. I explained how it just made me want more, that I wanted to be her lover, and I couldn't be.
I asked her why she did that. She said that she f'ed up, basically. That she just felt compelled to do it, to have a connection with me, but that it wasn't in my interests and it was a huge mistake. She apologized sincerely.
I said in a way that this was probably for the best because it was making me confront the reality that we can't be together, which is something I've been avoiding for a long time. She said, yes, she thought so, too, although she should have done it a better way. She said she'd been avoiding confronting that reality also. I asked her why. She said because she was confused, too. Because she liked feeling loved by me, and she didn't want to let go of it. She was enjoying it. So, we're going to try to move past it now, I guess. I hope I can. It's really hard for me to accept.
I guess, one good thing is that when she came out to get me from the waiting room, my first thought was that she looked stupid (I don't like her new hair-do), and that was kind of a relief for me. I mean, I'm still attracted to her, I guess, but maybe the bubble is starting to burst. Maybe someday I'll really realize that she's not all I've cracked her up to be. She's not really the woman for me. I hope it happens soon, because this is really, really painful.
We're cutting back on sessions (to twice a week from three times! I know, sounds nuts) and I told her I'm thinking about taking a break altogether, actually. To get some feeling of control back. I also lent her my copy of "In Session." She had never even heard of it. I was surprised. She said, "Is there anything in particular you think I'll get out of it?" and I said, in general, I thought she would find it very helpful, but that I particularly thought the part about the power dynamic and how little things can matter a lot to the client would be relevant. At least she really seemed to realize she had a lot to learn.
I really am crazy about her, as a therapist as well as a love object, and I think she's doing a great job. She just made a huge mistake here, and I think she learned her lesson. And we're going to move forward. She promised me that something good would come out of this. I have a hard time imagining what that will be, but I'm sure that it's true.
Thanks to all of you for your support through this crisis. I think I'm going to fall apart now.
:(
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 16:01:47
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
You did really well today. And so did she.
Therapist can make mistakes - we all can. But if we talk about them openly then the relationship can get back on track.
Good luck!
Posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:18:08
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on December 30, 2003, at 23:43:50
> hi elle,
>
> i keeping reading about transference, what is it? thxHi!
Transference is when the patient develops romantics feelings toward the therapist (usually because they are attributing their feelings of well-being toward the therapist) There are two types, but I can only remember one of them, which is erotic transference. I also read somewhere in an article (I posted it a while back) that therapy isn't complete until the patient has experienced transference. I don't know if I agree with that. But, I have experieced a type of it myself, but not in a romantic way. More like, I just want my therapist to be my father-figure, like a dad. Hope this helps you out.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:24:23
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:34:52
Crushedout,
I'm glad it helped you. The only reason I can think that she would be encouraging transference, even though she knows about your crush, is that perhaps she is trying to avoid making you feel rejected, because she thinks you are on the brink of making a big step. That is the only thing I can think of. I'm glad that you are going to discuss it with her, hopefully that will resolve the situation.
Elle
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:18:08
> > hi elle,
> >
> > i keeping reading about transference, what is it? thx
>
> Hi!
> Transference is when the patient develops romantics feelings toward the therapistHi
wow! really? i had never heard of that. i can't believe this is encouraged. but what do i know. if it helps why not, if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for. this must be a freudian technique. i felt like i was missing something cause i kept reading about transference, it seems like everyone is experiencing it, thanks
dragonfly
Posted by henrietta on January 1, 2004, at 11:51:22
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
Transference is when the patient transfers onto the therapist feelings about someone in the patient's life. Could be your mother, father, any important figure with whom you have unresolved conflicts. The idea is that the patient can work through the unresolved conflicts using the therapist as a sort of stand-in for the mother, father, whatever. The feelings are not necessarily romantic. (This is a very poorly worded explanation---sorry. Think I'll go look it up on the internet!)
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:37:36
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
There are two ways of using the term. One is the narrow way of describing feelings towards others in your life being projected onto your therapist. So you might have feelings towards your therapist that really "belong" to your mother.
The wider definition is that transference is anything that you feel towards the therapist that isn't clearly a natural response to the real relationship. Like if your therapist answers the phone and talks to his carpet cleaner during your session and you get mad, that isn't transference. He was being rude and you got angry to a degree proportionate to the offense. But if your degree of anger is completely out of proportion to the offense, you might consider whether transference is in effect. One way transference is useful is that themes that play out in every part of your life get played out with your therapist. So if you tend to be angry with authority figures and you see the therapist as an authority figure and get angry with him, you can work on that in therapy to improve your real life relationships with authority figures. Or if you tend to see men as threatening, and see your male therapist as scary but learn to trust him anyway, that could improve your relationships with other men as well. Or if you can only relate to men sexually and you sexualize your relationship with your therapist, you can use the relationship to learn different ways to relate. Etc, etc.
I like the second definition better, as I think it covers more useful ground.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:42:07
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
I think it's great that she admitted the problem, but I also think you should ask her to get supervision on your case. She's admitted to feeling "compelled" to have a connection with you. There's no telling what else she'll feel "compelled to do" and that'll just mess with your mind.
If you want to continue to see her, it's really really important that her behavior be closely monitored by someone who can keep tabs on her. You shouldn't have to do that yourself.
You're not any two people trying to negotiate a relationship. You're a professional and someone under a professional's care. This is her problem and she should take *extreme* precautions to make sure you aren't hurt by it.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 14:56:53
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:42:07
well, that sounds like an excellent idea, but that would ruin my chances of seducing her, dinah!someone else needs to tell her to do that, because i'm only motivated by my desire to be her lover, no matter how much pain it causes me.
it's not sensible, but it's really where i'm at in my head. must be frustrating for you guys, who know i'm out of my mind.
> I think it's great that she admitted the problem, but I also think you should ask her to get supervision on your case. She's admitted to feeling "compelled" to have a connection with you. There's no telling what else she'll feel "compelled to do" and that'll just mess with your mind.
>
> If you want to continue to see her, it's really really important that her behavior be closely monitored by someone who can keep tabs on her. You shouldn't have to do that yourself.
>
> You're not any two people trying to negotiate a relationship. You're a professional and someone under a professional's care. This is her problem and she should take *extreme* precautions to make sure you aren't hurt by it.
Posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
> wow! really? i had never heard of that. i can't believe this is encouraged. but what do i know. if it helps why not, if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for. this must be a freudian technique. i felt like i was missing something cause i kept reading about transference, it seems like everyone is experiencing it, thanks
Dragonfly,
Not everyone experiences it. I'm like you. If I started feeling a romantic attraction I think I'd get out of there. And in the broader definition Dinah used, where it is overreacting to things your therapist does based on your prior experiences with other people, it's something I've worked hard not to do. I don't see encouraging it as helpful.
Jane
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:29:10
In reply to Re: I saw her today » Dinah, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 14:56:53
Crushed,
I am in complete sympathy with you. When I first realized I was "in love" with my T, I deeply desired a sexual relationship with him. But , I have talked and talked about it with him (thank God that he has been a complete professional)and am seeing the end of that fantasy. I also realized, after reading In Session, that there was zero chance of it being a positive thing for me. I have let go of the fantasy. Give it a try.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 15:32:49
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:29:10
how? how can i let go? how did you do it?
> Crushed,
>
> I am in complete sympathy with you. When I first realized I was "in love" with my T, I deeply desired a sexual relationship with him. But , I have talked and talked about it with him (thank God that he has been a complete professional)and am seeing the end of that fantasy. I also realized, after reading In Session, that there was zero chance of it being a positive thing for me. I have let go of the fantasy. Give it a try.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:57:59
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
> > And in the broader definition Dinah used, where it is overreacting to things your therapist does based on your prior experiences with other people, it's something I've worked hard not to do. I don't see encouraging it as helpful.
>
> JaneBut Jane, the reason it's helpful is that we don't have the insight to know we do it until our therapists point it out to us. There's no need to encourage it to a greater extent than we already do it. But if we do it in real life, it's useful also to do it in therapy so that our therapists know about it.
Or at least I think that's the theory.
(And I'm using "we" merely as a global we.)
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:58:46
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
Posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
In reply to Re: transference, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:57:59
>
> But Jane, the reason it's helpful is that we don't have the insight to know we do it until our therapists point it out to us. There's no need to encourage it to a greater extent than we already do it. But if we do it in real life, it's useful also to do it in therapy so that our therapists know about it.
>
> Or at least I think that's the theory.
>
> (And I'm using "we" merely as a global we.)Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
Jane
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 15:32:49
I accepted, really and truly, no kdding myself, the truth that a romance is impossible. I also accepted that I HATED not getting anything back from him (no return of "love" -- I put the word in quotes because I don't think it is really love but I don't know what else to call it.)
This is not easy and for me it has added to my depression. I am grieving over the lost fantasy.
Take care and best of luck.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
The problem is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I mean, unfortunately, as we all know, Ts do sleep with clients. And it's almost always a disaster. But it happens. So I can't convince myself it's IMPOSSIBLE, although I admit it's unlikely she would do that. But the reason Dinah (and others) are so concerned is because it's NOT impossible.Right?
So, I have to decide that I don't WANT it. Because it would hurt me. Because I deserve better, etc. etc. Deciding it's impossible won't help, because I just know it's not.
I'm sorry you're more depressed. I think I know how you feel. I feel pretty sad myself.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:15:27
In reply to Re: transference » Dinah, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
> Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
>
> JaneYou would be surprised how many people don't realize they're screaming at everyone. :) And wouldn't recognize it unless they saw it pointed out to them right under their nose, and even then might deny it outright. Sigh. I think my work involves people too much. I get disillusioned.
But I forgot the other reason to encourage transference. Positive transferences can encourage compliance with therapy. And, in my own therapy, the positive therapy is used to create a corrective emotional experience and a secure base (or good enough mother or whatever). But now I'm getting waaay out of my depth. :) I think I prefer to think of it as magic and not examine it too closely.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:18:18
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
Ok, maybe it's not impossible to get her to sleep with you. But it is impossible for it to turn out well, or be what you want. Or so close to impossible as to make no difference.
The therapist usually gets scared or ashamed and ends up hurting the client.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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