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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 9:58:15
In reply to Lou's answer to Dinah's post-part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 9:28:52
I do understand Lou. Perhaps you could ask Dr. Bob if wording the sentence differently would have been ok. For example "The man had seen the resurrection and the rider told him that anyone who had seen the dead resurrected and yet still not believed in God was a fool." Would that be ok. It would not be considered a putdown to anyone who had not seen the dead resurrected and still did not believe in God. Perhaps with an additional explanation that this only applied to this one man, and you did not mean to imply that anyone who did not believe in God was a fool?
I'm just throwing out ideas here, Lou. I still think that certain religious thought is difficult to express on the faith board, given the varying religious beliefs, including atheism that are joyfully included there. It is a difficult thing, Lou. As many have discovered when trying to share their faith on the board.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 10:05:19
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Dr. Bob's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 9:14:47
Dinah,
You talked about tolerance, and I appreciate that you commmended me for being tolerant.
Then you say that the rules of the board make it (difficult) for one to share their experiance with the others here.
Could you not also request that Dr. Bob examine his rules, rather than to ask me to be restrained in order to accomodate the rule as being an alterntive to allowing me to post my experiance rather than not post my experiance ?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 10:12:50
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Dinah's post-part 2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 9:58:15
Dinah,
You say that it is a difficult thing to express your faith experiance here.
I agree with you! Do you want to suggest reforms that would enable people here, not just me, to make it less difficult to post their experiances in regards to their faith?
Lou
Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 10:46:34
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Dinah's post-part 2 » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 10:12:50
To be honest Lou, I think I would rather not express my faith here completely, rather than to change the rules. I respect Dr. Bob's rules here, which are made to keep a certain atmosphere here at the site. And since it's Dr. Bob's site, Dr. Bob gets to choose the atmosphere.
There are many boards where I could share my religious beliefs if I wished to, but only one Babble.
I like a certain personality, I won't use names here. And I went to that person's site, and there was a religion board on that site, and everyone was free to post their views there. The result was that members of one religion were saying that members of another religion were going to hell, because they didn't have the correct view of God and Jesus, or that their baptisms were not valid, etc. That religion of course responded in kind. It was highly unpleasant. Everyone was doing nothing but reporting what their faith and their church believed, but the result was that others felt attacked.
Dr. Bob doesn't want that here. I understand that you are not attacking those of other religions, I have always understood that. You have always been extremely respectful of my religious views. But there are probably things in my faith experience as well as yours that no matter how well worded, cannot be said at Babble without violating the site guidelines. Even as quotes from the Rider, or the New Testament, or the Tanakh.
I empathise with your dilemma. I really do. And I hope that you can find a way to word your experience in such a way that does not violate site guidelines, since I can tell it is important for you to share your experience.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 21, 2002, at 12:11:45
In reply to Re: Having a faith does not mean that you disrespect » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 8:19:59
Other people don't post quotes that are offensive in that way.
I'm offended.
I'm also offended that you seem to think that peole are attacking you for simply stating your views. I have been supportive of you int he past, as your view are as important as anyone elses.
But making statements such as calling people fools, when quoting, para phrasing or what ever is still offensive.
Nikki
Posted by oracle on October 21, 2002, at 17:36:19
In reply to Re: but not to put others down, posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2002, at 8:36:42
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 18:55:41
In reply to Ah, the beginning of the end (nm), posted by oracle on October 21, 2002, at 17:36:19
Oracle,
Good evening, Mr. Oracle. I have been reading a lot of your posts. I am delighted to be on the same thread with you. Could you clarify what you mean by the "beginning" and the "end". If you could clarify those , then ,perhaps, we could have a discussion about your end and your beginning. I hope tha you will explin them to me so we can have a discussion.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 19:02:47
In reply to Lou mets Oracle » oracle, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 18:55:41
Oracle,
I meant that I wanted to discuss your "end", not your end.
Sorry for leaving out the quotes,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 7:36:13
In reply to Re: but not to put others down, posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2002, at 8:36:42
Dr. Bob,
Are you going to accuse me of "putting down others" because I want to post that the Rider, who is the Word of God in my experiance, said to me, "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other Gods before me"? You later suggest that I can leave in the "one God" part, but you did not include the part that I "should have no other Gods before me", so that could mean that I will be restrianed by you if I post (that part) on the faith board.
Being a jew, we have a commandment from my God that if we worship other Gods, then it is considered idolatry to us. Nor can we worship idols, either.
Now you say that you will restrain me from posting that I "should have no other Gods before me". in the telling of my experiance on the Faith board. Your rule on the faith board says that you can tell "what worked for you." It also says not put others down or pressure others. Are you saying that you will accuse me of either "pressuring others" or "putting down others" if I would tell of my faith experiance when I was told by the Rider, who is The Word of God in my experiance, to not worship other Gods?
I would like for you to clarify why you would accuse me of this, if I post the formentioned quote on the faith board,, as to how another poster can post that she is catholic and her religion tells her not to forsake going to church, or it is a sin to her and you did not restrain her and accuse her of "putting down others", or "pressuring others" because she told of one of the parts to Her religion that she is to follow. Are you telling me that a catholic person can freely tell of there parts of there religion that they are to follow, but a jewish person, like myself, will be restrained from telling their parts of their religion that they are to follow on this electronic bullitin board?
I would like to know what your descriminating rational is to make such a restraint upon me, and how your rational allows the Catholic person to post their parts of their religion that they are to follow. If you would clarify that, then I could have a better knowlege to rationals on this board that you use to determine acceptability and then I could formulate my posts to accomodate those rationalas. As of now, I am under the impresson that catholics can tell of parts of their religion that they are to follow, but jewish people, like myself, on this board will be restrained if they post one of the parts of their religion that they are to follow,ie, to have no other Gods before them. I am Not saying that others Must follow the jewish God and niether is the Catholic person saying that others Must follow their God and go to their church. I am not putting people down because I am a jew and niether is the Catholic lady putting people down because she says that she is a Catholic. Are you saying that the Zen person that posts here is could alo be accused of"putting people down" because they post of their Zen beliefs using your rational? I am telling my experiance , as I have been invited by you to do on the faith board which was created for people to tell of their faith as your opening page states on the faith board.
I would like to continue telling of my experiance on the faith board so that others could see it and then choose, if they want to, to see if it could help them, for you said that the faith board was for me to tell my experiance because since it worked for me, then it could have the potential to work for others. But I can not do so untill you clarify if you are going to restrain me from posting the post in question here and what your descrimiating rational is so that I can accomodate your rational.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 22, 2002, at 8:34:51
In reply to Telling of your faith does not put down others » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 7:36:13
Lou,
Myself and others have told you where you went wrong with your post and how we felt offended by it, but you have convieniately not replied to them or seem to have taken any notice of them.
Dr Bob is NOT saying you can't post your experiences, but using language that will offend others (such as calling us fools) is not acceptable.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 8:49:26
In reply to Re: but not to put others down, posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2002, at 8:36:42
Dr. Bob,
Are you saying that telling of your faith "pressures" others"?
I would like for you to clarify this so that I can have a better understanding of your rationals that you are going to use for me when I post here about my faith. I am not saying that evryone has to be a jew, like myself, and I want others to know that I respect all religions and this is why:
In what I have been telling here, the Rider , who is the Word of God in my experiance, spoke to me. I am telling what He said to (me) here. It has been revealed to me that the Word of God can speak to anyone. You do not have to be particular religion to hear the Word of God. It has been revealed to me that the The Word of God is not a respector of persons and that an athiest can hear the Word of God and also a deaf person for it has been revaled to me that God is a spirit and God is light and God is love. These things are not heard with ears. They are spitually heard and anyone can hear the Word of God, not just this religion or that religion or people that have no religion at all.
The faith board was created for others to tell of their faith experiances. It is that understanding that people look at the posts on that board. They then can use what they read to make decisions about faith on their own, or to make no decision at all. No one on this electronic bullitin board has said that one must be a Catholic, or a Zen , or a Jahovah's Witness, or a jew or anything else.
When the Gates opened to me I saw what was revealed to (me). If a person of another faith chose to traval the "Gates", then they could see something different that leads them to The City of Peace, if that is their choice to want to go. No one here is pressuring anyone to do anything. I do not see that and if you say that it is visible here, then would you point out those posts to me, with your rational that says that they are pressuring others to be their religion so that I can see them also?
I am telling what I experianced, and I have been invited by your opening page on your faith board to do so. If by one telling of their faith experiance, by your invitation, could constitute "pressuring others", then your board could cause those that post their faith experiances to be accused by you of pressuring others,, unless you clarify what well-defined rationals that are applied equally that you are going to use to deem people to be pressuring others.
Could you tell me how my post that would say that my God wants me not to worship other Gods could be "pressuring" others when I am only telling my experiance as you have invited me to do? If you would do that , then I could have knowlege of your rational and posts to accomodate your rational. As of now, you have posted that it could be possible that you will accuse me of "prssuring others" if I post that The Word of God, who is the Rider in my experiance that I am telling hear, says to me to not have any other Gods before Him. I would rather not want to have to guess as to whether you are going to say that that post would constitute "pressureing others" or not, so could you tell me before I post it if you are going to restrain me in this regard, and your rational for your restraint so that I can formulate my post to accomodate your rational?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 9:02:02
In reply to Re: Telling of your faith does not put down others » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on October 22, 2002, at 8:34:51
NikkiT2,
Could you point out the posts that you are referring to that you say that I have not responded to? It is my own policy to answer all posts directed to me and if I missed one, I would like to answer it now.
If you could give me the URL, then i will read it now.Thanks,
Lou
Posted by tina on October 22, 2002, at 9:08:00
In reply to Re: Telling of your faith does not put down others » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 9:02:02
It's not that you haven't responded Lou. You have but you aren't LISTENING to what is posted to YOU. You talk and you talk but you don't listen at all. We ALL said that the word "fools" is not acceptable under the civility guidelines but you just go on and on about the Rider, ignoring that your question has been answered over and over. All this isn't necessary. Just HEAR that the word FOOLS is the offending part of your post and move on....
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 9:41:26
In reply to Re: Telling of your faith does not put down others » Lou Pilder, posted by tina on October 22, 2002, at 9:08:00
Tina,
Thank you for your interest in this discsssion. Are you saying that the word, "fools" can never be used on this forum and that the prohibition is (absolute)?
Could you clarify if you mean that one could not quote a line by Shakespear if the word "fool" is in the line?
If you could clarify that , then I will be better able to understand what you mean and be better able to discuss this topic with you.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 10:17:59
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Dinah's post-part 2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 10:46:34
Dinah,
I have read your post and have some questions that I would like you to respond to so that I will have a better understanding of what you have written. If you could answer them , then I could better understand the rules of this electronic bullitin board and then be better able to construct my posts to accomodate the board's rules.
1)Are you saying that if I tell of my faith experiance, in relation to that my God told me that I should have no other Gods before Him, that that statement could cause others to respond and then there would be an atmosphere on the board like some other board that you mentioned that would be (undesierable)? I base this on your paragraph in your post that I am responding to that describes one christian sect attacking some other sect about their baptism(s)and Jesus.
2) Are you saying that just because some people react to things that way that it will (absolutly) happen here?
3)Could it be possible that the posters here are of a different mentality that what you have described to have happend on some other board and thearfore what you describe as to what happened on another board may not happen here?
4)Are you saying that the "rule" (absolutly) prohibits me from posting that my God told me that I should have no other Gods before Him? And if so, could you clarify why that statement would violate the rule, if I posted it on the faith board, and a statement like "faith without works is dead" could not violate the rule?
If you can clarify that to me, and give me your descriminating rational that describes why my post would be restrained and the post that says, "faith without works is dead" would not be restrained, then I could be better able to construct my posts to accomodtate the descriminating rational.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 22, 2002, at 10:45:26
In reply to Re: Telling of your faith does not put down others » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 9:02:02
The posts are all in this thread Lou. one from Tina and one from me for example.
nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 10:46:48
In reply to Re: Lou's answer to Dinah's post-part 2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2002, at 10:46:34
Dinah,
You wrote that Dr. Bob has made the rules to "keep a certian atmosphere." Could you clarify what you mean by that statement in relation to the following questions,or any thing else you would like to include in your response? If you could do that, then I will have a better understanding of the rules of this board and their rationals, and I will be better able to compose my posts to accomodate those rules and rationals.
1)Could you clarify if it is my post, only, that I want to post about that I was told by the Rider, who is the Word of God in my experiance, that I should have no other Gods before Him, is the sole post that you think would change the "atmosphere" or if a post like, "I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, would not change the atmospher of this board? That was posted on the faith board by another poster and I did not see any change in atmosphere to the board, but if I missed a change, could you point the posts out to me that seemed to be a change in the atmospher due to the posting of that post?
2) Could you tell me what the "certian atmospher" is that would be changed and why the new atmospher, that could result from the change, could not ,possibly, be a better atmospher for the board, or are you saying that change , in and of itself bad?
If you could clarify that, and distinguish whether your post here is your own thoughts or the thoughts that you are putting forth as a reprsentative of the administration of Psycho-Babble, as your status as a board deputy, then I will have a better idea of how the rules operate in regards to one that seeks change to existing policys.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2002, at 11:22:26
In reply to Lou's response to Dinah's post-part 2 » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 10:46:48
Ahh, Lou. Of course I am responding as myself. I am not part of the administration of this board, and my duties as deputy are few and well defined by Dr. Bob. I have rarely used them in fact.
My post was made on the basis of the oft cited rules of civility prepared by Dr. Bob, and my second post was merely a statement of agreement in principle with those rules, and one example of a site where those rules were not in place.
I am not going to make judgements about the posters on that site as opposed to the posters on this site. I don't think it was a question of posters as much as it was of site guidelines.
I'm sorry I cannot help you more, Lou. Specific questions have to be addressed to Dr. Bob. I was just offering you empathy concerning your dilemma, which has been shared by many others attempting to communicate their faith on the faith board.
All I can offer is a guess, and I did write out some of what I guessed would be ok, and what wouldn't. But I erased it because I would have just been guessing and that wouldn't have been fair to you.
I wish you the best of luck in telling your story.
Dinah
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 12:20:54
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Dinah's post-part 2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2002, at 11:22:26
Dinah,
Thank you for responding to some of my concerns. Dr. Bob says in his opening page that he has mixed feelings about having board deputys, like youself, and I agree that I also have mixed feelings about it , for I do not want your status as a board deputy to be a wedge between us as being both discusants on this forum.
Also, you mentioned that you made up a list if your ideas and then discarded them.
I was wondering if you would do me a favor and reconstruct your list and email them to me for I beleive that you have good ideas and that there may be something in your list that would be benifitial in regards to what we have been discussing.
If you could do that, I would be appreciative of your concern.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:22:51
In reply to Lou does respect the views of others » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 6:32:47
Friends,
The question of a person telling of their faith here has come up and I would like to share with you what the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on this subject.
The case began when some people were told that they were being disrespectfull to others if they followed one of their tenents of their religious beliefs. The group fought the people that were punishing them for following one of their beliefs all the way to the U.S. Supreme court and the court ruled on whether someone could be accused of disrespecting others if they followed one of their beliefs. I will tell yu, next about that Supreme Court Rulling
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:35:38
In reply to Lou does respect theviews of others-Supreme Court, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:22:51
Friends,
The case involved one group's speech in relation to the other group accusing them of being disrespecful to them for following one of their groups tenants of their religion involving speech and whether their speech disrespected the other group by their speech.
The case began around 1942 and has since established the rulling on whether one person's speech disrespects another person if the person's speech involved their faith. I beleive that this case is relevant on this board because that subject is now being discussed and I believe that it is an issue here that needs to be openly discussed so that the posters here will have this infomation to include in any posts that they may make relavant to this discussion.
Next: The case
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:48:29
In reply to Re: Lou does respect theviews of others-Supreme Court, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:35:38
Friends,
The case began when a group of students were being expelled by a school district for following one of their religious beliefs. Also , a teacher was firerd for following his same belief.
The group was an unpopular religious group in that community, but I still admire to this day their great courage for challenging the expullsions of their children because they followed one of their religious tenants.
The school district's argument for expelling the students was that what they said, which was a tenant that they followed in their religion, was disrespecting to others. There were three issues decieded by the Supreme Court of the United States that today are a beacon of light.
Next, the issues.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 15:23:31
In reply to Lou does respect theviews of others-Supreme Court, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 14:48:29
Friends,
The case began when a student of the unpopular religion in that community refused to stand and recite what is called the pledge of alligiance to the flag.(hearafter just called the pledge).
The school disticts argument was that by not standing and reciting the pledge, the student was disrespectfull to the others.
Not so!, said the court. The court rulled,(1) "To compell a person to say that they Must speak, is just as violative to their civil rights as telling a person that they can not speak.
(2) To say that because they do not stand or speak and that they thearfore are disrespecting to those that pledge was poo-pooed by the court. Also, the court said that the school could not requirer the students that followed their religious tenant to not salut flags, which is their right to free speech,to go outside the room when the pldge was recited. They had a right to not speak and any action as a result of their excercising thir right to free speech is a violation of their civil rights guarnteed by the Constitution of the United States.
(3) No one has the right to establish what is orthodox in religion (or polotics).
The teacher won, and he just said that his concience prohibited him from saluting flags and that his refusal does not mean that he is disrespectfull to anyone any more than the pledgers were being disrespectfull to him.
God Bless America,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 22, 2002, at 16:04:42
In reply to Re: Lou does respect theviews of others-Supreme Court, posted by Lou Pilder on October 22, 2002, at 15:23:31
Lou.
You are still missing the point that i have bene trying to show you.
You were not warned by anyone, including Dr Bob, for sharing you religious beliefs.
You called those of us who do not believe in god fools. You offended ME with this statement. You offended others with this statement.
Dr Bob pointed out that this was disrespectful.Please consider this.
Nikki
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2002, at 16:15:35
In reply to Re: Telling of your faith does not put down others » Lou Pilder, posted by tina on October 22, 2002, at 9:08:00
> you aren't LISTENING to what is posted to YOU. You talk and you talk but you don't listen at all. We ALL said that the word "fools" is not acceptable under the civility guidelines but you just go on and on about the Rider, ignoring that your question has been answered over and over.
Please remember not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, OK? Thanks,
Bob
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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