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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Lamdage22 on February 7, 2021, at 21:54:01
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2021, at 17:28:58
yes Comirnaty is Pfizer(BioNTech) and yes they can be asymptomatic and spread is what I heard.
> Is the one that begins with the C Pfizer here in USA? Or is it Johnson & Johnson soon to be released here one shot only? From what I know the vaccines protect the person vaccinated from serious Covid but they can be asymptomatic and spread to others? Is this what you have heard also? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2021, at 0:55:06
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » alexandra_k, posted by linkadge on February 4, 2021, at 6:59:25
> I'm noticing a trend here. People who say they don't want the vaccine are saying ..... "I've heard ....".
Yeah. When I say 'I've heard' it's often short-hand for 'Pathoma Says', or, 'I read it in 'First Aid' (First Aid for the United States Medical Lisencing Examination study book).
Does Pathoma or First Aid say things specifically about Covid? No. They say things specifically about vaccinations and the way that different kinds of vaccinations work (the risks and payoffs). They say things about auto-immune disorders and the way they work, insofar as we know about them, and things about what kinds of vaccinations are or are not recommended for various people given what clinicins know about their history of auto-immune disease or potential for it's development.
> There's a lot of misinformation out there. People say a lot of uneducated and uninformed things. Those things travel and get passed on by people who don't want to cognitively challenge them.
Yes. That is true. But it is also true that people try and take advantage of people sometimes and, unfortunately, that has included people being lied to about what medical treatments are likely right for them.
> A vaccine does not activate the immune system in perpetuity. It briefly activates the immune system so that antibodies can be produced.Well, it aims for increased numbers of memory cells capable of responding to the antigen to be produced by teh body and remain in the body. So there is immunological memory so large numbers of antibodies can be produced if the body is exposed to the antigen in the future (and hopefully those large numbers of antibodies produced in the future won't turn out to be active against the body's own cells or won't turn out to congeal weirdly into clots in the blood or won't turn out to form another kind of... Amyloidosis or prion type of disorder)...
> Autoimmune disorders are poorly understood, but there is no established link to vaccines.People who have a disposition towards allergies are disposed to making antibodies that target self-tissue instead of antibodies that target other tissue only.
They are often recommended not to have certain kinds of vaccination because of the increased risk that their bodies will make antibodies that target self-tissue. But, again, these are people with conditions like rheumatoid arthritis (where their body has accumulations of self-attacking proteins agglutinating in their synovial fluid) or Lupis or... Certain pre-existing disorders like that.
Like how dust doesn't CAUSE asthma attacks but can trigger an asthma attack in people who have prior existing asthma. Immunisations can cause auto-immune responses in people who have a prior disposition for their bodies to do this. The vaccination simply acts as a trigger for them instead of natural exposure acting as a trigger for them.
I do worry that going all gung-ho on trying to make bodies produce antibodies to a great variety of things (as they are considering with the new mRNA vaccines since teh major benefit of them is that they can be quickly altered in their specificity and a vaccine for a new strain manufacturered relatively easily)... My concern with them wanting to vaccine people against lots and lots of things (many more strains of influenza, new strains of Covid... MOre and more and more and more things...)
My concern is that the body will be producing a lot of antibodies. And when the body produces a lot of proteins like that there is the possibility that they will start to fold strangely or agglutinate with each other or start forming clots with each other or start binding or sticking to the walls of the blood vessels... That the bodies macrophages and natural killer cells start taking chomps out of parts of the body in trying to clear or remove tehm... That the natural killer cells and the like start secreting a lot of digestive enzymes doing more global damage trying to clear the antibodies...
I don't think it is paranoid of me... I think that my concern is based on a relatively good understanding of some of the basic principles of auto-immune disorders and vaccinations and prion diseases and the like...
One of the very very early problems with Covid was micro-clots in the blood. What were the micro-clots comprised of? Antibodies? I don't know that I saw an acount of what the blood clots were...
I wondered at the time that they were saying that the main problem with Covid (the main cause of death) was that the body was producing an extreme immune response and it was the extreme nature of the immune response that was killing people. They couldn't get oxygen absorbed into the lungs because of an inflamatory exudate being produced by the lungs. They had clots. Presumably... Antibodies.
So I wondered if vaccination was going to prevent the body producing that kind of an extreme response...
I don't know.
Those most likely to be harmed by Covid (older with preexisting condition) seemed also most likely to be harmed by Covid vaccination...
I don't know if I'll get a vaccination when they become available to me. I suspect I won't because I don't trust the New Zealand Government who refuses to make their data or the reasoning for their decisions (teh negotiations) public.
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 8, 2021, at 2:57:24
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 7, 2021, at 21:54:01
Well when I say "ive heard" I actually am asking if somebody knows. Not trying to spread anything.
Does Comirnaty protect those around the vaccinated, too?
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2021, at 9:16:31
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 8, 2021, at 2:57:24
Lamadge , no the vaccine doesn't protect those around the vaccinated person. It also doesn't l00% protect the person with the vaccine. It is said to keep serious Covid from harming the vaccinated person so they do not require hospitalization and possibly death. Here those with auto immune disorders are advised to get vaccinated. I'm still on the fence about getting the vaccine and I'm almost 75. Why is the Covid ICU RN that lives next door to me not gotten the vaccine per her choice. She's not contracted Covid either. Right now on an app popular here called nextdoor for various neighborhoods there is discussion on the vaccine. And if those that received either the Pfizer or the Moderna have experienced more side effects with their second dose. Will you get a vaccine when available to you? Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 8, 2021, at 11:56:00
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2021, at 9:16:31
Then it won't solve the problem entirely. Are they still researching on other vaccines?
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2021, at 12:08:31
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 8, 2021, at 11:56:00
Johnson & Johnson will be released maybe a week. One vaccine. There is a lower rate of protective but they think only think might be more effective on variants but the information isn't clear. I still don't like that on the arm side you received the vaccine in that it can effect the lymph nodes and show are something wrong on a mammogram. So does this mean somehow it could be altering immune systems? The Johnson & Johnson one doesn't do the mrna? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2021, at 20:51:50
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 8, 2021, at 2:57:24
> Well when I say "ive heard" I actually am asking if somebody knows. Not trying to spread anything.
Yeah... I use it like that, too :)
> Does Comirnaty protect those around the vaccinated, too?Thanks for the name (never heard of it). I found a nice link to some info:
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/comirnaty
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:04:36
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2021, at 20:51:50
Yeah, they say they don't know. I haven't found any reliable evidence that it doesn't protect others. Just hearsay.
> > Does Comirnaty protect those around the vaccinated, too?
>
> Thanks for the name (never heard of it). I found a nice link to some info:
>
> https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/comirnaty
>
>
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:06:26
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:04:36
I think it makes a huge difference. At least for me.
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 9, 2021, at 7:06:26
Comirnaty: This is name that is filed for the Covid vaccine in Europe then. Where in the USA it's filed under the name Pfizer. Is this correct? Thanks. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 10:15:58
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18
There is something in our news now ('I once heard a man say') that there was a South African study saying that one of the vaccines in particular did not seem to offer much protection to young healthy people from non-lethal (mild symptoms of) Coronavirus.
I think the concern is that this finding shows this vaccine, in particular, to not be so suitable to give to the majority of front line health workers / border workers. The thought is that the mild symptoms mean they are infectious, I suppose. Mild enough for them to still be turning up to work so more likely to pass the virus on to vulnerable people without themselves being in any real danger at all.
New Zealand was planning (is planning still) on using the first doses that arrive in this country to vaccinate front line health and border workers.
New Zealand was not planning on vaccinating the vulnerable populations first.
The South African finding has not changed the New Zealand government's plan of using that particular vaccine to vaccinate front-line health workers and border workers first.
I suppose mostly because... Who is going to stop them from taking the vaccine for themselves?
I mean... It would be like trying to deny them to the board of a private I mean recently public-private merged therefore public hospital. Because of all the work the public healthcare workers do for the public ahem aha.
They are saying they will be all tracked in NZ. But given our governments track record of tracking... And who is tracking the trackers? And so on... The absurdity in that...
We recently had this fiasco of lead being found in water and not reported to the people. So the same people (public health) not capable of measuring lead in water offer free blood tests to measure lead in blood. And of course the public funded tests say they don't find lead.
Nobody was given money to go pay an independent lab to do an independent test.
The NZ government will not be held to account...
It is difficult. On the one hand -- I would be suspicious, indeed, of a vaccine that was supposedly specifically for vulnerable people.
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The games people play...
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 11, 2021, at 13:38:46
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18
They like to name drugs differently here. Causes lots of confusion. Here it is Comirnaty, that I know for certain.
> Comirnaty: This is name that is filed for the Covid vaccine in Europe then. Where in the USA it's filed under the name Pfizer. Is this correct? Thanks. Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 11, 2021, at 13:41:00
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2021, at 9:10:18
Pfizer is a drug company. It would surprise me if they had named the vaccine like the company.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 14:37:48
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2021, at 20:51:50
Pfizer/BioNTech (Comirnaty).
Posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2021, at 17:57:25
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 11, 2021, at 14:37:48
Here so far the two being given are called Pfizer 2 doses three weeks apart. And then Moderna. Also 2 doses but 4 weeks apart. Johnson & Johnson different mechanism and only one dose vs two submitted now for emergency use now also. Doesn't have the higher 94-95% effectiveness rate about 68% I think. But it's been said works on the UK and South African variants. So much is still unknown. Still up in the air as to whether getting vaccine? Would you? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:34:33
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2021, at 17:57:25
I don't think we are having access to Moderna at all, in NZ.
Information last updated 10 February 2021 from NZ Ministry of Health:
We (NZ) currently have agreements with 4 suppliers:
Pfizer and BioNTech (two doses 'about two weeks apart')
Janssen Pharmaceutica (likely to be single dose)
Novovax (two doses, likey not available until until later)AstraZeneca (two doses fridge stable). Some reports may be ineffective for people over 65.
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opinion:1) I think that Pfizer and BioNTech and Moderna are both rna vaccines. That's a new technology that they are very very hopeful will be better than previous. So... Experimental. They might turn out to be a lot better... They might... But they might not. Or they might need some ironing out of things... For example... They seem to be unclear whether it would be better to get two doses to the people 2, 3, or 4 weeks apart.
I don't know enough about vaccinations to have an informed opinion (not even a guestimate) as to which of those is more likely to be a better idea for what kinds of people. I mean, I don't have a stabby guess of an estimate of 'if these things apply to you I'd lean towards 2 weeks and if these things apply to you I'd lean towards 4 weeks'. No idea. I suppose we are waiting to see what happens. Truth be told.
That's why it's being rolled out differently. An experiment. Experimental vaccines.
The New Zealand people are the only people who have been told that ours are not being rolled out under 'emergency' provisions because things are in the experimental stage. The New Zealand people are the only people being told that our government has undergone it's standard or usual or normal or typical approvals process because New Zealand does not have community transmission so we are not in a state of emergency. We are in no hurry -- it is just that our borders are locked down... In the sense that arrivals need 2 weeks in a detention facility / quarantine on arrival and numbers of them allowed in at one time... are very limited.
These are the first vaccines to become available. So... They are getting to the young healthy people who are agressive or assertive enough to get themselves right up there first right at the head of the cue. That is to say the people on the boards of directors of recent public-private hospital mergers... (I'm griefing on that -- ) And the front line border workers and the like. Fit, healthy people who are likely to be most resilient if the vaccine turns out to have unpleasant effects. Which it doesn't seem to have had.
With the Janssen and Novovax...
I don't know where different States are at with the roll-out...
Those are the older types or styles of vaccination. Again, looks like they aren't sure what dose to give. One dose -- or does there need to be a follow-up dose? So different people are being offered different things. So they can see what happens. See what seems most effective at the population level.
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The issue that I have with all this... Is the same issue that I have with drug trials and inofrmation about drugs very generally... That is to say:
I don't care if psychoanalysis is not effective for 99.9 per cent of the non-Jewish population. I care about whether psychoanalysis is right for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. So... What is it about the people who it is effective for? What features of them make it effective? People say 'we don't know until we do the experiments' and there is SOME truth to that. But there's also a lot of truth to an intelligent mind and vicarious knowledge / learning and educated guesses and clinical experience and common-sense...
In quite a few respects... I am an outlier. I have had people make very very wrong or bad decisions about what would be best for me on the basis of assuming or requiring me to be average or whatever...
So... With psychiatric medications, too... If a drug turns out not to be helpful for half or even two thirds of a population... I still care whether it will be likely to help me... So... What is it about the people it helped? IN virtue of what did it help them?
Often they exclude the people like me... Which make the studies nonsense, too. Exclude the old, the young, those with co-morbidities... It's complicated...
Then to get started on the issue of corrution in science. People making up data. All of that...
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I think...
You don't care about what I would do...You care about what I would do *if I were you*.
In some sense of you. I don't mean 'it would be better for ME if YOU did x or y or z'
But really...By some empathetic process... If I could really imagine my way into your shoes...
Your age... The relevant features of your medical history... Your immune response... If you have a strong healthy immune system... Or if it takes you a bit longer to recover from things... If you have tendancy towards under or over response, I mean to say...
(Not that I know how that impacts on ideal times between doses yet)...
That's the thing..
ANd it could be a trade-off between better immunity to Covid now vs problems longer term... It could possibly turn out to be better to be just a little protected over a longer haul.
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I don't know what I would do if I were you...
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I suppose when I am offered the vaccine I would like to take it.
But I don't trust the NZ health system.
Last time I presented to the ER for a physical complaint they did not listen and they involuntarily detained me and sectioned me under the mental health act for assessment withotu proper cause... Because they were bored that hardly anybody was showing up to the hospital with the epidemic.
If I were you... Insofar as I can imagine myself into your shoes... Reasonable access to healthcare....
I would probably take the vaccination when it was offered to me -- yes.
for whatever that is worth.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:44:19
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:34:33
and then you have to consider logistics.
you can't hold people hostage to make sure they get their second dose in the time (on the day) they are supposed to get their second dose.
even if we aim or aspire for x group to have their second dose 2 weeks later... and y group to have their second dose 3 weeks later... and z group to have their second dose 4 weeks later...
it isn't like the doses come 2 per pack and they just keep your other one waiting for you...
and people will be no shows (they only get one dose).
and i suppose the thing with the hospital workers, really, is that they are there on hand.
apparently they come with 6 doses to a vial or something like that. and they stay in the fridge for up to 6 days once opened or something like that. that means healthcare workers are on hand for doses that might need to be thrown out otherwise...
it is logistically formidable. since you can't involuntarily detain people to ensure they get that second dose when they are told...
and you don't want a situation where people are scheduled appointments and they turn up and there isn't a dose for them. that's a very very very very very very very bad look. i think nobody wants that.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:47:59
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:44:19
do you remember at some point there was something about a mistake in the UK trial...
people were given only 1/2 the dose they were supposed to get (oops)...
and it turned out that that was MORE effective than them having the dose they were supposed to get in the study / the trial.
they stopped the trial at that point.
because that's another thing... we talk about the number of doses... but how much of the vaccine is in each dose???
would it be better to have 1/2 a dose now and 1/2 a dose later? or 1/4 of a dose? that kind of a thing...
people like to criticise drug companies for over-prescribing...
but that might just have been what clinicians say to themselves in new zealand to justify giving patients only 1/2 doses of medications to save money / to syphon off medical supplies to the private sector...
Posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 12, 2021, at 13:47:59
In the USA. Pfizer is two doses 3 weeks apart & Moderna is 2 doses 4 weeks apart. And yes people have appointments at various locations. Some at pharmacies, some at grocery stores, some at huge vaccination events where they drive through in their cars and receive their vaccine. Some large events you arrive at your appointment times and walk into the building. Some doctors are now administering the vaccine in their offices. It varies but those who meet the criteria at the time do get both doses of vaccine. Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43
You are further with vaccinations than we are. The german government kind of messed it up. They didn't order enough of the vaccine. My dad is scheduled for the 25th February. I hope that he will be fine.
Posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2021, at 9:35:36
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13
With the new variants and with Johnson & Johnson just announcing that it looks like they are going to have to make vaccines for each. Starting to sound like the annual flu shots which I don't get. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:09:51
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2021, at 20:44:43
Do you mean that people aren't being offered one appointment / one dose...
They are being offered two appointments? So they are scheduled in for their second dose at the same time?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:12:55
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by Lamdage22 on February 13, 2021, at 3:51:13
I think every place is saying they didn't order enough / didn't manufacture enough / they didn't ship them enough.
State of RI... There was criticism that they haven't vaccinated as many people (per head of population) as other states... But then the governer said something about how they were doing well at getting people the second dose, though, and they were leading in that...
And something about how 70 per cent of the doses had been administered...
Because, I guess, if you don't know when the next lot will arrive then you... Are supposed to keep 1/2 of them in wait for the second round of appointments that had already been booked...
Posted by Lamdage22 on February 14, 2021, at 5:19:29
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences? » Lamdage22, posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2021, at 9:35:36
New variants meaning the south african and british or are there even newer ones? Hope not. It really bothers me in the long haul. At first it was like "yeah maybe couple weeks of lockdown" that was different. Now it has been a year and we don't know if and when this bs will disappear!
Posted by Phillipa on February 14, 2021, at 9:24:30
In reply to Re: Who has gotten a Covid Vaccine Experiences?, posted by alexandra_k on February 14, 2021, at 5:09:51
Yes that is how it works here. When you receive the first dose you don't leave without the second appointment date. But when I signed up it said I had to schedule both doses at the same time. Got 2 dates in confirmation letter sent via computer. Phillipa
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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