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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by floatingbridge on June 11, 2011, at 14:05:30
In reply to Re: Sth for temporary depression relief??, posted by Lamdage on June 11, 2011, at 13:03:05
Lamadge,
I would never tread on you or put you down for anything. I want you to know that. Even if we found ourselves in disagreement, I would work to understand with respect.
Many here have had the experience of sometimes knowing way more about our
own treatment than the doctor we are seeing. It's difficult not to become disheartened or even frightened in my own situation because of the balance of power in the doctors' favor. They hold the script pads.And yet, there are good doctors out there. Ones who will listen to their patients even if the doctors themselves do not have all the answers. Doctors are only human. And each of us and our
illnesses are so idiosyncratic and, at times, difficult as well as difficult to understand. And we all can feel hurt or insulted so easily. You've been through a lot.Parnate, I understand is too stimulating. Can you find a doctor over the German
border to treat and prescribe? It could be worth the drive to get Nardil. If you are able to get out and about. Or can you Skype and have a friends pick up your prescription?Many, many good wishes,
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 11, 2011, at 15:13:04
In reply to Re: Sth for temporary depression relief?? » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 11, 2011, at 14:05:30
> Lamadge,
>
> I would never tread on you or put you down for anything. I want you to know that. Even if we found ourselves in disagreement, I would work to understand with respect.
>
> Many here have had the experience of sometimes knowing way more about our
> own treatment than the doctor we are seeing. It's difficult not to become disheartened or even frightened in my own situation because of the balance of power in the doctors' favor. They hold the script pads.
>
> And yet, there are good doctors out there. Ones who will listen to their patients even if the doctors themselves do not have all the answers. Doctors are only human. And each of us and our
> illnesses are so idiosyncratic and, at times, difficult as well as difficult to understand. And we all can feel hurt or insulted so easily. You've been through a lot.
>
> Parnate, I understand is too stimulating. Can you find a doctor over the German
> border to treat and prescribe? It could be worth the drive to get Nardil. If you are able to get out and about. Or can you Skype and have a friends pick up your prescription?
>
> Many, many good wishes,
>
> fbHey fb,
sorry i was a little harsh!
i agree there are good doctors out there.. The one i first saw when i took nardil. I was like "lithium orotate ive read might help stability" and he said allright but send me some links first and i will do some research to make sure its safe. He s not perfect, he has sort of let me down one time and i was very angry at this, but this lithium orotate thing shows hes a cool guy. One who listens and cares.Listening to the patient and trying to understand him should not be that hard. If you ask me its a certain batch of people who strive to have a position of power. Of course not every doctor is driven by these motives, but from my experience, the majority is.
Well im not in the US right now so i dont have the option to go to the US guy.
Thanks for the tips, i too have thought about doing this.. The next country would be belgium, like a 4 hour drive. It would be a little pricey for me to get on the train every time and i dont think german insurance pays for visits to a belgium doctor. It would be pretty sweet though.
I got one order on the way already. Im not 100% sure about this one but it should come, it seemed pretty legit and ships from within the EU.
And my neighbour just told me she knows people in belgium.
One of them might be able to get it OR i have found another website that ships and appears to be legit, but it wouldnt make it through german customs. Id send it via that website to one of the folks in belgium then.All i know is i will get it.. more than ready to take extreme measures. Ive had enough.
I hear you, i really do and i will try to find a doctor that doesnt have narcissistic tendencies AND is willing to help me with the nardil, but i need relief and i need it now. With or without doc.
Thanks for your support and concern, i really appreciate it. BTW My alter ego "caring pdoc" upped Wellbutrin to 375 and kicked venlafaxine out.
Peace
Lamdage
Posted by Lamdage on June 13, 2011, at 16:05:50
In reply to Re: Sth for temporary depression relief??, posted by Lamdage on June 11, 2011, at 15:13:04
Ok 375mg wellbutrin makes me sh*tty agitated. Not pleasant. Back to 300.
Venlafaxine is out for like 4 days and i didnt notice it missing much.
Posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 17:04:52
In reply to Re: Sth for temporary depression relief??, posted by Lamdage on June 13, 2011, at 16:05:50
Yeah, maybe backing down on the Wellbutrin might be good, but I'm only guessing.
Kicking effexor really kicked me. Could some of your discomfort be due to that?
I don't think Wellbutrin would have had my withdrawal completely covered. That's me, though.
And I know you want to get to Nardil.
Hang in there.
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 14, 2011, at 9:53:55
In reply to kicking effexor » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 17:04:52
> Yeah, maybe backing down on the Wellbutrin might be good, but I'm only guessing.
>
> Kicking effexor really kicked me. Could some of your discomfort be due to that?
>
> I don't think Wellbutrin would have had my withdrawal completely covered. That's me, though.
>
> And I know you want to get to Nardil.
>
> Hang in there.Well i never got alot of efficiancy from venlafaxine. I just took it because it was what the docs made me eat and its better than nothing(probably).
I believe reducing wellbutrin might be good, too. Maybe its due to a changed serotonin-dopamine relation. Leaning more toward dopamine/norepinephrine now and thus agitating. Idk. Its not like im very nervous though. Just some pretty agressive thinking :D. But then again there is alot to be pissed of about.Another question:
Ill use a medical bracelett/ID. For the sake of not being pissed of by any docs, not even in case of any urgency, id like to state that i take "Jatrosom" (parnate), because thats the one usually prescribed in germany (well like 1 out of 50 depressives).
Do these two have the same interactions??I think i will also state on the medical ID what anesthetics to use and what not.
Thanks in advance
Lamdage
Posted by Lamdage on June 15, 2011, at 8:48:08
In reply to Nardil: same Drug interactions as Parnate??, posted by Lamdage on June 14, 2011, at 9:53:55
Honestly.. im feeling better without the venlafaxine than with it. I havent had a crying jag that heartfelt and relieving in a long time.
I will never let myself be manipulated into take an emotion killer ever again. Luckily to me, nardil is just the opposite.Its amazing how the lies penetrated my mind.
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 3:24:28
In reply to to me its official: ssri action=death of emotions, posted by Lamdage on June 15, 2011, at 8:48:08
Venlafaxine to MAOI is 7 days according to most sources. MAOI to venlafaxine is 2 weeks
Posted by floatingbridge on June 16, 2011, at 11:27:51
In reply to effexor washout is thought to be 7 days!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 3:24:28
Just be careful. Promise?
fb
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 12:07:24
In reply to effexor washout is thought to be 7 days!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 3:24:28
> Venlafaxine to MAOI is 7 days according to most sources. MAOI to venlafaxine is 2 weeks
Actually, 7 days is more than enough to washout Effexor. It has such a short half-life, that 4 days would probably be enough, if you went cold turkey.
When I check interactions with phenelzine, wellbutrin is contra-indicated. I believe it's a metabolic interaction.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 14:46:38
In reply to Re: effexor washout is thought to be 7 days! » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 12:07:24
I promise i will be. ;)
I just did some shopping: Kaolin, Gelatin, potassium carbonate, methocel and schellac-alkohol solution.
Acacia catechu will be bought, too.And i will buy a coffee grinder to make a "inactive ingredient powder". + a pill crusher. I will probably prepare only prepare the mix of this powder and of crushed nardil for a few pills at a time to avoid excess dosage fluctuations.
Enteric coating for do it yourselvers is actually pretty easy. Dip it in there.. (schellac/alcohol) let it dry. Turn 180 degrees dip it in. dip in for like 5 times.
Yeah not really sure about the wellbutrin yet. Im at 225mg now. When the nardil arrives i will go ahead and take 22.5 mg phenelzine. Thats half the effective dosage for me. It will take a while until mao is inhibited to any significant degree so i think its fine.
Anyone know the washout period of wellbutrin? Please dont tell me Maoi washout is 2 weeks because im not washing out nardil im washing out wellbutrin.Thanks Ld
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
In reply to Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 14:46:38
As for mixing, i will go easy on the potassium carbonate, the rest i will just take a teaspoon of each and make the mix. No headaches.
Then ill mix two parts nardil with one part inactive ingredient mix (roughly). I think whats most important is that the amount of phenelzine is accurate. Not sure how im going to accomplish this, but i will somehow.Wellbutrin washout is roughly 7 days if im not mistaken. Ill just throw a plan out there:
will stay at 150 wellbutrin and 22.5 phenelzine for a while. Then gradually fade out wellbutrin around a week prior to moving to the effective phenelzine dosage, having it completely out 3 days prior. Something like that. Sound good?
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 15:54:24
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
> As for mixing, i will go easy on the potassium carbonate, the rest i will just take a teaspoon of each and make the mix. No headaches.
> Then ill mix two parts nardil with one part inactive ingredient mix (roughly). I think whats most important is that the amount of phenelzine is accurate. Not sure how im going to accomplish this, but i will somehow.
>
> Wellbutrin washout is roughly 7 days if im not mistaken. Ill just throw a plan out there:
> will stay at 150 wellbutrin and 22.5 phenelzine for a while. Then gradually fade out wellbutrin around a week prior to moving to the effective phenelzine dosage, having it completely out 3 days prior. Something like that. Sound good?The interaction that has been reported between phenelzine and wellbutrin is that seizures become more likely, probably because phenelzine blocks the destriction of wellbutrin in the liver. If it's not bein destroyed, it's as if you're taking more of it. Wellbutrin will always cause seizures at high doses, so they put dosage limits on it to keep most people below the seizure threshold. You can't quantify ahead of time your personal risk created by taking both drugs simultaneously. You may find out if you do the experiment, however.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 16:01:27
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 15:34:28
P.S. A week washout for wellbutrin should be enough, but active metabolites have half-lives of up to 50 hours. If you want to account for those, the washout should be at least 10 days.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 16:01:27
Ok i feel ya. Lets throw neurontin in. Kidding
Seizures dont sound too fun.
I found this on drugs.com
bupropion ↔ phenelzine
MAJOR INTERACTION
Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion), Nardil (phenelzine)
CONTRAINDICATED: According to the manufacturer, the acute toxicity of bupropion may be potentiated by coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The mechanism of interaction has not been described.Oh well, i just dont know how to keep my head above water these following couple weeks if im going to have to go a more defensive route. :(
Posted by floatingbridge on June 16, 2011, at 16:23:24
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
You can post here among other things. Start some new threads. Do you ever hit the social board? Or Alt?
Glad you're gonna play safe.
fb
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2011, at 16:42:34
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » Lamdage, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 15:54:24
Hi Larry.
I took Wellbutrin 900mg for over a month without any side effects other than it made me feel moderately worse.
I took Parnate 80mg in combination with Wellbutrin 300mg without side effects other than the addition of Wellbutrin made me feel moderately worse.
Parnate isn't Nardil. Is Nardil more apt to affect the kinetics of Wellbutrin than Parnate?
- Scott
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:02:09
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
> Ok i feel ya. Lets throw neurontin in. Kidding
>
> Seizures dont sound too fun.
>
> I found this on drugs.com
>
> bupropion ↔ phenelzine
> MAJOR INTERACTION
> Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion), Nardil (phenelzine)
> CONTRAINDICATED: According to the manufacturer, the acute toxicity of bupropion may be potentiated by coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The mechanism of interaction has not been described.
>
> Oh well, i just dont know how to keep my head above water these following couple weeks if im going to have to go a more defensive route. :(I checked four different drug interaction engines, and three gave negative reports, indicating that the severity of the potential interaction was extremely serious. The most detailed report was at DrugDigest.
From Drug Digest:
BUPROPION HYDROCHLORIDE (in Wellbutrin Tablets) may interact with PHENELZINE (in Phenelzine Tablets)
Bupropion has been shown to cause seizures in some people, especially when used in high doses. Although the cause of this potential interaction is not clearly understood, the risk of experiencing a seizure is even greater when bupropion and phenelzine are taken together. Other side effects that can occur with the use of bupropion include agitation, confusion, nausea and vomiting, headaches, and sleep disturbances. Bupropion and phenelzine should not be used at the same time. Wait at least 2 weeks or longer after stopping therapy with phenelzine before starting therapy with bupropion.Ask your healthcare provider about these drugs and this potential interaction as soon as possible.
This interaction is poorly documented and is considered major in severity.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » larryhoover, posted by SLS on June 16, 2011, at 16:42:34
> Hi Larry.
>
> I took Wellbutrin 900mg for over a month without any side effects other than it made me feel moderately worse.
>
> I took Parnate 80mg in combination with Wellbutrin 300mg without side effects other than the addition of Wellbutrin made me feel moderately worse.
>
> Parnate isn't Nardil. Is Nardil more apt to affect the kinetics of Wellbutrin than Parnate?
>
>
> - ScottI really don't know, Scott. From what I read about the pharmacokinetics and modes of metabolic processing and excretion, it looks like this is an idiosyncratic interaction. I suspect that there have been case reports filed with the FDA and/or the manufacturer, indicating that the problem can occur. It's not predicted by receptor activity or direct drug effects. I suspect it's a quirk of liver function, i.e. a genetic (un)luck of the draw.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » SLS, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
I will definitely play it safe. The main motive is that if something goes wrong, i will once again have other people tell me what med to take.
I dont want that, i want independence, i want longterm recovery, i want nardil.
One thing i did notice withdrawing from effexor is it got alot harder to get to sleep. Not great that i have to burn out my sleep meds now before nardils well known insomnia. Trazodone and neurontin are coming in, i hope one or both of them will keep me in green.I wanted to switch to trazodone for a while when i was still in hospital, with the motive of not burning out the weak antipsychotic i took. Of course the doc knew better. Now i did almost completely burn it out.
Posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
In reply to ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
> I will definitely play it safe.
I'm not going to suggest that anybody plays Russian Roulette with Nardil. I have combined 90mg Nardil with 300mg of bupropion without a problem. Like Larry said, for certain people it could be very dangerous.
Jedi...
"Combinations with other antidepressants
We have found all antidepressants that do not involve significant serotonin reuptake inhibition (e.g., bupropion, trazodone, and tricyclics other than clomipramine) can be safely administered with MAOIs. Combination therapy is worth considering because it may be effective when other approaches have failed."
...Vol. 1, No.6 /June 2002
MAO inhibitors:
An option worth trying in treatment-resistant casesJonathan O. Cole, MD
Senior consultant in psychopharmacology
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical SchoolJ. Alexander Bodkin, MD
Chief, Clinical Psychopharmacology Research Program
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Assistant professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
So whats left is methylfolate, omega3, excercise and the support of friends. No drug interactions with these^^
Last time i went off antidepressants i didnt immediately fall into deep depression, either. I wont feel anywhere near good but ill make it through. Safely
Posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
So Lamdage,
How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
How you doing today?
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
> So Lamdage,
>
> How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
>
> Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
>
> When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
>
> How you doing today?
>Hey thanks for checking in,
i just came home from a relaxing run through nature.
Hm still some days to come. Im at 150 since today and will stay for the weekend. monday ill go to 75 and then start low dose phenelzine somewhere wednesday.So far ive noticed sleep got a bit of a problem and anxiety around people is up. Other than that im not horrible.
Yes thats what my psychologist called it. Inattentive and not hyperactive.
Its not too much of a problem for me. I find it very hard sometimes to listen to someone talking less than interesting stuff.
I think my "i dont give a hoot" radar goes off quicker than that of others. Thats all :DWhats your experience?
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:20:00
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Well yeah.. its not hard for me to listen to friends i value. I am forgetful with errands and stuff though
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 3:04:56
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Lamdage,
Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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