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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 18:39:01
> Can you be more specific, Scott? What did they do that messed with your chemistry?
I had become manic on Nardil. So, the Nardil was removed and both Thorazine and Prolixen added. Within a week, they put me back on Nardil. My manic reaction to this exposure was more severe than the original mania. I never responded to previously successful treatments again.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on September 25, 2010, at 9:00:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?
is it because some psychiatrist are incompetent, or say lets try, we get in trouble and our brains damagedk, thats what happened to me, and i ve seen it happen to others aswell
Posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
In reply to Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by Jeroen on September 25, 2010, at 9:00:31
> Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?
>
> is it because some psychiatrist are incompetent, or say lets try, we get in trouble and our brains damagedk, thats what happened to me, and i ve seen it happen to others aswell
>
>Haven no doubt in my mind that meds cause mania in people that otherwise would not get it.
But what is mania? Drs seem to think anything is mania these days.
Posted by Jeroen on September 26, 2010, at 2:35:52
In reply to Re: Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
mania = drug induced psychosis
Posted by Conundrum on September 26, 2010, at 10:26:50
In reply to Re: Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?, posted by huxley on September 26, 2010, at 2:29:55
My pdoc thinks I was "slighty below hypomanic" when I was on prozac. A relative of mine said the thoughts she had on 60 mg of nardil were psychotic and her husband recommended that she stop it. She went back to 30mg and everything was fine. Dumb doc started her at 60mgs. Most docs would say the patient had latent BP disorder. DO THEY EVER THINK THAT THEY ARE GIVING PEOPLE DRUGS!??!?! DRUGS INDUCE MIND ALTERING STATES. DUH! ITS CALLED "TOO HIGH A DOSE" OR "THE DRUG WORKING TO WELL," NOT BP II.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:37:58
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
Maybe it was not the meds--maybe it was just you evolving into more pronounced version of what prompted the docs to medicate you? You did poorly on the original meds, but then switched to something more compatible to your chemistry--do you mean to say your brain chemistry was forever altered? I'm no trying to be argumentative or otherwise difficult, but I have never bought into the belief that brain structure/chemistry is changed forever after a medication is ceased. Enlighten me, Scott--why do you think this to be the case? You have a lot more insight than me here and I am only responding from my own experiences. Take care:)
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:40:17
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Jeroen on September 24, 2010, at 8:56:28
Perhaps that is not the best drug for you? Did you find something that did not cause you these awful side effects then?
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 15:44:35
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:37:58
> Maybe it was not the meds--maybe it was just you evolving into more pronounced version of what prompted the docs to medicate you?
What is the "it" you are referring to? I don't understand.
> do you mean to say your brain chemistry was forever altered?
Unfortunately.
As an example, neuroleptics can produce as a side effect irreversible tardive dyskinesia. You give someone Haldol, they develop a characteristic movement disorder, you stop the Haldol, and the movement disorder persists.
It may be that neuroplasticity tends to occur in one direction over another - downhill rather than uphill. My responsivity to antidepressants has decreased over the years. The drugs that worked 25 years ago do not work now. Something has changed. It seems that my responsivity to antidepressants has deteriorated over the years rather than being enhanced. How does one explain tachyphylaxis (poop-out), the phenomenon wherein an individual responds to drug treatment for only a short period of time? They seem to develop a resistance to ever responding to that drug again. It is the exposure of the brain to medication that is the stimulus for this to occur.
Scientists have been permanently altering (damaging) mouse and rat brains with chemicals as experiments for decades. They can even be selective in terms of the systems and regions of the brain they damage.
Does chronic alcohol consumption produce permanent changes in the brain? What prevents an antidepressant from doing the same thing?
Not only can chemicals produce permanent changes in the brain, but so can experiences. PTSD is a good example of how this can occur. Even experiences in the womb can determine many of the persistent behavioral traits that an individual will demonstrate for the rest of their lives.
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 15:44:35
Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain. Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I do not agree that the psych's choice of meds are at the root of what continues to ail you. I strongly believe in personal responsibility and so maybe that's where we are in disagreement. I mean no harm to you, but think we are coming from different perspectives. I hope you are doing better now:)
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 16:37:07
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
> Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain.
Do you think your personal research into these matters has been as exhaustive as those who choose to spend their entire lives studying them?
> Again, not trying to be argumentative,
That's okay. You can be argumentative.
> but I do not agree that the psych's choice of meds are at the root of what continues to ail you.
Are you sure you know me well enough to say such things?
What ails me?
> I strongly believe in personal responsibility
I have none?
What are you talking about anyway?
> and so maybe that's where we are in disagreement.
I didn't know we were.
> I mean no harm to you,
Don't worry. I may not be as fragile as you think I am.
> but think we are coming from different perspectives.
Coming from different perspectives regarding what specifically?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 16:51:43
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 16:37:07
In dissecting your post, I still disagree with you. I do not believe the docs messed up your brain--I believe that you encountered a psychological breakdown that might have been worse without their assist. I feel that the meds and their side effects just serve to offer you an excuse. Again, I am sorry that you experienced so much chaos at such a young age.
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:06:59
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 16:51:43
> In dissecting your post,
It is usually not necessary to dissect my posts. My writing is pretty transparent and efficient.
> I still disagree with you.
Of course, this is your elective.
> I do not believe the docs messed up your brain--
Again, this is your elective. I appreciate your input.
> I believe that you encountered a psychological breakdown
What exactly is a "breakdown"? Can you be more specific?
> that might have been worse without their assist.
How do you know who my doctors were? How can you characterize their decisions as being without iatrogenic consequences without knowing anything about them?
> I feel that the meds and their side effects just serve to offer you an excuse.
An excuse for what?
I appreciate that you should take such a special interest in me and my welfare. I am blessed.
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 17:21:15
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:06:59
I think this thread is no longer helpful. I was merely referencing personal responsibility and you seemed to have missed that. I do wish you the best though Scott:) Your posts are insightful and thought-provoking:)
Posted by Tomatheus on September 27, 2010, at 17:40:43
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:58:12
> Tardive dyskinesia is the only example I can find for permanant bioligical damage to the brain.
I can think of two more examples of how pharmaceutical use can induce long-term damage:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.21318/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18790702
I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that pharmaceutical use cannot cause long-term damage. Research? Expert opinion?
Tomatheus
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:48:26
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 17:21:15
> I think this thread is no longer helpful.
> I was merely referencing personal responsibility
I guess I missed your point, sorry.
I would have to know what it is that you think I am not taking personal responsibility for in order for this thread to be helpful.
I sometimes get defensive when someone indicates to me that I need to take personal responsibility for something when they know so little about me or my situation in life.
What do I need to take personal responsibility for?
- Scott
Posted by Tomatheus on September 27, 2010, at 17:51:59
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 16:51:43
Olivia12,
Would you say that the tremor that I have from taking lithium (which I stopped taking five years ago) was also the product of a psychological breakdown? Or does that only apply to "mental" phenomena?
Tomatheus
Posted by emme on September 27, 2010, at 18:07:32
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 27, 2010, at 17:48:26
> > I think this thread is no longer helpful.
>
> > I was merely referencing personal responsibility
>
> I guess I missed your point, sorry.
>
> I would have to know what it is that you think I am not taking personal responsibility for in order for this thread to be helpful.
>
> I sometimes get defensive when someone indicates to me that I need to take personal responsibility for something when they know so little about me or my situation in life.
>
> What do I need to take personal responsibility for?
>
>
> - Scott
Scott is one of the most diligent and resourceful people I know. I cannot imagine how he could be possibly more responsible in managing this terrible illness.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 18:20:37
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by emme on September 27, 2010, at 18:07:32
Perhaps I let my own perspective color my response. I take full responsibility over what these meds can and cannot do for me--I know they will not offer me an amzing life, but they can act as an assist so that I may better function. At the same time, I do not think they will mess with my biochemistry forever and do not hold them accountable for the way I eventually turn out. I suppose I do not credit the meds for more than they are capable of--good or bad. While it's nice to see that you protect your own, you people feel like a pack of dogs. Yikes.
Posted by emme on September 27, 2010, at 18:47:32
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 18:20:37
> Perhaps I let my own perspective color my response. I take full responsibility over what these meds can and cannot do for me--I know they will not offer me an amzing life, but they can act as an assist so that I may better function. At the same time, I do not think they will mess with my biochemistry forever and do not hold them accountable for the way I eventually turn out. I suppose I do not credit the meds for more than they are capable of--good or bad. While it's nice to see that you protect your own, you people feel like a pack of dogs. Yikes.
Woof. :)You've been posting regularly for a little while now, so as far as I can see, you are one of the board. You just haven't known everyone as long. Some board members have known some posters for a fairly long time, and we have seen how hard they work.
Speaking about what meds can give you and what they can't, what I personally want is a level playing field with people who don't have a mood disorder. I want remission so that I can go out and do what I want to to have a good life. I want enough remission so that I forget I have a mood disorder.
My meds do an amazing amount of good for me. I pay a price with some spaciness and fatigue (hey, nothing's perfect), so I don't quite forget about the disorder, but I feel generally solid on them. I'm still trying to get my meds to do the windows, though.
Posted by Conundrum on September 27, 2010, at 22:38:49
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 18:20:37
> I do not think they will mess with my biochemistry forever...
Whether you think they will or whether they actually will are two different things. Everyone is different and some get through it unscathed but many do not.
The link below is to a series of case studies taken by psychiatrists that show neurological damage that continues after SSRIs are discontinued. The people in these case studies are in the minority, but the damage does exist. Their doctors aren't telling them its part of their disease.
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2010, at 8:20:28
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Conundrum on September 27, 2010, at 22:38:49
The thing I'm worried about is focus and attention. I know it got worse on SSRI's. Everyone in my life said I wasn't as sharp. But I'm not sure it ever came back when I went off SSRI's.
I'm not sure it's actually that my IQ dropped, as was the general consensus among family and employers. When I focus, I think I'm not any less intelligent than I ever was. But my ability to focus is totally shot. My brain seems to get stuck in its focus and can't change gears.
Posted by Conundrum on September 28, 2010, at 9:55:56
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2010, at 8:20:28
Are you saying that you have the ability focus sometimes, and then if you do it is very hard to change focus. I find it hard to focus sometimes and then distract myself away from what ever stupid thing I'm doing. Like I'll be noodling on my guitar with no real purpose and know I have something else like washing my clothes that needs to be done, but I'll sit their meandering on the guitar even though I'm not getting any pleasure from it. Then once I realize how much I'm not enjoying it I will stop.
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2010, at 16:39:02
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Dinah, posted by Conundrum on September 28, 2010, at 9:55:56
Well, it comes across as a lack of focus, but I think instead it might be hyperfocus with trouble shifting gears. Maybe like a very narrow scope of focus. At any rate, my memory is shot to heck, motivation is awful, and my brain gets stuck on whatever it's doing.
Posted by Hombre on October 4, 2010, at 19:45:13
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2010, at 8:20:28
I suffer short-term poop-out from my drugs if:
* I haven't been exercising regularly
* I haven't been eating enough whole foods
* My digestion is poor
* For lack of a better way to describe it, my metabolism has slowed down - this could be the result of a lack of exercise or poor diet
* I experience stress in my relationships
* I don't get enough rest
I've found that if I eat whole foods, bolster my diet with supplements, get to bed ridiculously early, try to talk out my problems in my relationships or cut out the ones that are harmful, and adjust my biochemistry with certain herbal substances that have a long history of creating certain adjustments in the body, I am able to respond again to my meds. At least I assume that is what is happening, although I've actually made adjustments to just about every aspect of my lifestyle.
What I mean is, I think since we cannot be sure just what "damage" is being done by the meds, we cannot say that the changes that have occurred are irreversible. And these changes might not all be in the brain, although they affect our moods, our thinking, and other functions associated with the brain. Perhaps not all of the symptoms of the mood disorder come from problems in the brain. We might be able to make things somewhat or substantially better by altering what's going on in the brain by taking SSRIs and other drugs, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that the deleterious changes that lead to post-SSRI dysfunction or treatment resistance are solely in the brain or can only be affected by targeting the brain and its chemistry.
I think the meds cause changes in the way the body functions, that's for sure. But there are reasons why we respond and then don't respond. The information is scarce as to what changes are going on, so we leave the solid ground of science and enter into a murkier landscape. We can no longer depend on the specialized knowledge of most doctors. That doesn't mean that there aren't things we can do, things we can eat, and things we can believe in to change the way our bodies function. There is hope, I believe, but we have to wade out into uncharted waters sometimes to discover what else is out there. If we focus on the brain too much, we get stuck in the lack of knowledge and the scary fact that we still don't really know what's going on in there. That might make us feel hopeless and powerless. But there are still somethings that are within our power to do, although we might not really trust or believe in them due to a lack of scientific evidence. Science clearly shows its limits in this case, however, so after we've mourned that fact, we're in a good position to fill in the gaps and empower ourselves with various methods that science basically doesn't understand and can't help us with.
Posted by Maxime on October 5, 2010, at 19:24:10
In reply to Re: Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident? » huxley, posted by Conundrum on September 26, 2010, at 10:26:50
Yes I do. Prozac is one culprit and Effexor is another. Sometimes it happens a low dose, and other times it the result of prescribing too high a dosage.
And yes,this does alter our brains. Once a person has experienced mania, it is very likely that it can happen again. It's called kindling. First,
the name "kindling" was chosen because the process is likened to a log fire.It might be suitable fuel for a fire, is very hard to set afire in the first place. But surround it by smaller, easy to light pieces of wood - kindling - and set these blazing, and soon the log itself will catch fire.In bipolar disorder initial periods of cycling may begin with an environmental stressor, but if the cycles continue or occur unchecked, the brain becomes kindled or sensitized - pathways inside the central nervous system are reinforced so to speak - and future episodes of depression, hypomania, or mania will occur by themselves (independently of an outside stimulus), with greater and greater frequency. In other words, brain cells that have been involved in an episode once are more likely to do so again, and more cells will become sensitized over time. For example, there is evidence that the more mood episodes a person has, the harder it is to treat each subsequent episode... thus taking the kindling analogy one step further: that a fire which has spread is harder to put out.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
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