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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by 10derHeart on May 29, 2009, at 12:24:04
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by Phil on May 29, 2009, at 8:26:43
No worries, Phil.
It's called 'hair.'
Lots of people have it.
Posted by Phil on May 29, 2009, at 14:10:12
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Phil, posted by 10derHeart on May 29, 2009, at 12:24:04
Oh...thanks. I've got to stop driving to work with my head out the window.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 29, 2009, at 14:38:33
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » 10derHeart, posted by Phil on May 29, 2009, at 14:10:12
Posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 15:16:39
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
> Just watch this 60 second video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8Depression also kills us..So take your choice..
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 15:26:03
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 15:16:39
> > Just watch this 60 second video:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
>
> Depression also kills us..So take your choice..
I would argue that we are already dead.
- Scott
Posted by Phil on May 29, 2009, at 15:54:34
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 15:26:03
I heard that, Scott.
Posted by ricker on May 29, 2009, at 16:37:39
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
I haven't read the other posts so this may have been mentioned;
Excessive eating, speeding, drinking and many more poor lifestyle habits will bring your life to a sudden stop, much sooner than drugs used in a responsible manner.Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2009, at 16:52:16
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
I've got a problem when somebody uses selective editing to exaggerate a warning attributable to a class of drugs.
From the Abilify monograph:
" Hyperglycemia, in some cases associated with ketoacidosis, coma, or death, has been reported in patients treated with atypical antipsychotics including ABILIFY. Patients with diabetes should be monitored for worsening of glucose control; those with risk factors for diabetes should undergo baseline and periodic fasting blood glucose testing. Patients who develop symptoms of hyperglycemia should also undergo fasting blood glucose testing. There have been few reports of hyperglycemia with ABILIFY."By no means am I minizing the severity of such adverse events as coma or death, but it behooves anyone who takes a med to understand the risks associated with taking it, and in partnership with the prescribing doctor, to monitor those risks. All choices we make have risks and benefits, including doing nothing. You do your best to predict the risks and benefits, but neither can be known with certainty ahead of the decision to medicate, or the experience arising therefrom.
Lar
Posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 17:10:59
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
I don't feel like watching the video, but for the discussion, I'd say doctors are more likely to kill us than the drugs. Psychotropic treatments need to be managed effectively, and that's not happening as much as it should be, and sometimes hardly at all. Our policies and health care system contribute to deaths as well. I think it's a lot more complex than saying drugs cause death. They do sometimes, but so does food (i.e.: peanuts can kill someone with a peanut allergy) and lots of other things....Handguns kill too, but a human being has to be operating it.
Doctors need to be more intensive with patients, imo. I've been prescribed many meds, and never was warned of anything with the exception of addiction with benzos. Oh-there was one-one doctor who I tried once and never returned to said simply "call me if you get a rash", but that's the most I've heard about adverse effets from a doctor regarding psychotropics. He didn't tell me you could become severely ill from and even die from the reaction that causes that rash-I looked it up on the internet, but refused to take the drug with that kind of management.
2 cents
Posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by ricker on May 29, 2009, at 16:37:39
I'm glad that this video has sparked debate - - it's healthy and it's necessary!
We have all suffered from side effects of drugs that have been prescribed for us by our doctors who we trust.
However, Abilify, in my opinion, has caused me more damage and put my life at risk, more so than any other of the 38 drugs that I have taken. And my own doctor, Dr. Mark Frye, not at the Mayo Clinic, was aware of the trouble it was causing me. However, he was the medical consultant to Bristol Myers Squibb for Abilify.
Not to mention, Bristol-Myers Squibb, has clearly acted unethically since Abilify has been on the market (Note: They marketed this drug for kids before it was approved by the FDA for kids) and they have been extremely clever in "slanting" studies on the side effects of Abilify (namely akathasia).
Which is why, I think that a video like this, is important to put out there and why it's out there and causing so much discussion, not just on the internet but in print and soon the issue of Abilify and side effects will make even larger headlines than it made being on the cover of the Wall Street Journal two weeks ago.
This is a wake up call to companies like Bristol Myers Squibb.
Again, the video link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
I urge you to pass this around to people whom you care about!
Posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 17:10:59
> I don't feel like watching the video, but for the discussion, I'd say doctors are more likely to kill us than the drugs. Psychotropic treatments need to be managed effectively, and that's not happening as much as it should be, and sometimes hardly at all. Our policies and health care system contribute to deaths as well. I think it's a lot more complex than saying drugs cause death. They do sometimes, but so does food (i.e.: peanuts can kill someone with a peanut allergy) and lots of other things....Handguns kill too, but a human being has to be operating it.
>
> Doctors need to be more intensive with patients, imo. I've been prescribed many meds, and never was warned of anything with the exception of addiction with benzos. Oh-there was one-one doctor who I tried once and never returned to said simply "call me if you get a rash", but that's the most I've heard about adverse effets from a doctor regarding psychotropics. He didn't tell me you could become severely ill from and even die from the reaction that causes that rash-I looked it up on the internet, but refused to take the drug with that kind of management.
>
> 2 centsI'm not sure that you can generalize from that experience. At every single monthly visit, my psychiatrist discusses the extent of my compliance (he wants to know off the top of my head what and when I'm taking meds to see if it is consistent with his directions), quizzes me regarding side effects, reminds me of the Parnate dietary restrictions and interactions, even asks what the pharmacy is charging me for my prescriptions. No refill prescriptions allowed--he goes through each med and what I need at every visit.
Every two months or so, we go over my blood work and I answer about 50 lifestyle questions related to my VNS. He then discusses the progress of my CBT. Then, my GP and my CBT therapist get summary reports concerning how I'm doing.
He's about as thorough as they come. I have to imagine that there are a lot of other psychiatrists out there who take things equally seriously.
Greywolf
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 17:57:02
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
> He's about as thorough as they come. I have to imagine that there are a lot of other psychiatrists out there who take things equally seriously.
Yeah. Mine is pretty good, too.I think you struck a healthy chord here. There are good ones as there are bad ones. This is true of doctors, nurses, and car salesmen.
It gets old.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 18:07:05
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
> Again, the video link is:
>>
> I urge you to pass this around to people whom you care about!
I would not send this to anyone, especially to people whom I care about!I believe it to be dysinformation.
I am sorry that you had a bad experience with Abilify.
You haven't mentioned just what that bad experience was. So... What was it?
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 18:24:30
In reply to Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 4:24:52
> Just watch this 60 second video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8I find it amazing that people are shocked that pschotropic drugs have side effects. Do you know how many people die from tylenol overdoses that destroy the liver or thousands who die from advil and bleeding ulcers? Yet most of us continue to take these drugs. So what is unique about psych drugs that we attack them because they have se. Our physicians are trained in allopathic medicine and primary use meds to treat disease. Most of them are potentially dangerous and have certain sides.
Posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:20:35
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 17:40:47
Obviously, and I thought it was inferred from my statement, only the doctors that are not intensive, or less intensive, need to be more thorough.
Sounds like you are lucky to have a good one.
Posted by greywolf on May 29, 2009, at 19:28:37
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » greywolf, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:20:35
> Obviously, and I thought it was inferred from my statement, only the doctors that are not intensive, or less intensive, need to be more thorough.
>
> Sounds like you are lucky to have a good one.You're certainly right on that.
Greywolf
Posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:38:32
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 17:57:02
Well it's not "old" news, or "old" complaints, or whatever you meant--in my case--considering I only found out recently other PDocs were so different from the ones I've had. I had never used the internet to investigate my psychiatric treatment until recently, so it's pretty new to me.
It may be tiresome for you to hear, but I had only recently discovered the ways in which life has been adversely--and unnecessarily--affected for years as a result of substandard medical care. I am positive that my life would not be currently hanging by a thread had I had decent medical care over the past few years.
It's a lot different than having a bad car salesman...While not personal, it degrades my situation to compare my mental health and well being, and all the suffering I've experienced as a result of poor care, to bad service from a car salesman. You can't compare someone's medical care with purchasing a car.
"There are good ones as there are bad ones. This is true of doctors, nurses, and car salesmen.
It gets old."
Posted by yxibow on May 29, 2009, at 20:06:45
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 5:12:17
> > Just watch this 60 second video:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8
>
>
> One should be just as cautious when evaluating the accuracy or varacity of anti-drug portrayals as he is with pro-drug portrayals.I agree
> I have been taking Abilify for a number of years. The only side effect I can report is weight gain. I did experience what appeared to be mild akathisia during the first week of treatment, though.
It caused far more akathisia than I figured giving its supposed push/pull action at D2. I couldn't continue to take it, but these are standard side effects for basically -all- antipsychotics.
> Are these drugs killing us? Life is a fatal condition. I don't think most of the antidepressants will accelerate that process.Exactly -- life by definition is fatal. Its hard to think that, and maybe its maudlin, but I hope I get through my therapy, recognize that, and enjoy what is a really unexplainable condition, namely all of us.
> At this point, it appears that none of the standard antidepressant drugs used for 20-40 years have produced an observable increase in the rate of fatality. At the very least, such a thing has not been obvious.In fact they might have produced a -decrease- in fatality from suicide despite side effects.
-- Jay
Posted by emme on May 29, 2009, at 21:25:33
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Relapse on May 29, 2009, at 10:10:13
> I will take my chances on the drugs and there various sides. I just hate the side effects I get with untreated severe anxiety/depression, lie face down in a pool of sweat then die.
> DaveWell said. :)
Let's see...my situation is:
No meds (or the wrong meds) = unspeakable psychic agony, anxiety, inability to make decisions, inability to concentrate, apathy, oh and did I mention unspeakable psychic agony?
With meds (Lamictal + Abilify) = freedom from aforementioned psychic agony, ability to perform at a good job, exercise, take recreational classes, enjoy friends.
No-brainer. I'm extremely grateful. It took years.
emme
Posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 22:19:48
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Andy Behrman, posted by SLS on May 29, 2009, at 5:52:44
i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.
Posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:27:30
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Andy Behrman on May 29, 2009, at 17:33:04
How about summarizing the video for those of us who can't (or won't) watch utube instead of just posting the link over again?? I can't tell whether it's about ADs in general, APs or just Abilify from the comments posted. Or what claims it made.
Posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:39:59
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by Neal on May 29, 2009, at 22:19:48
> i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
>
> in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.Not true! But if you'd like this to be true bug your legislator to outlaw "gag agreements" in court settlements as being against the public interest. Right now you just can't tell whether or not there are big payoffs being made to keep complaints quiet in all sorts of industries. It's become standard to pay off plaintiffs providing they agree never to disclose the amount of settlement or even that they had a complaint in the first place. Good for the plaintiff, good for the offending company, but definately bad for all the rest of us. And an abuse of the court systems we all pay for.
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 5:48:28
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us?, posted by bulldog2 on May 29, 2009, at 18:24:30
> I find it amazing that people are shocked that pschotropic drugs have side effects. Do you know how many people die from tylenol overdoses that destroy the liver or thousands who die from advil and bleeding ulcers? Yet most of us continue to take these drugs. So what is unique about psych drugs that we attack them because they have se. Our physicians are trained in allopathic medicine and primary use meds to treat disease. Most of them are potentially dangerous and have certain sides.
Psychotropic drugs are as stigmatized as the illnesses they treat. Many people are passionate in their belief that biological mental illnesses do not exist, and that psychotropics are cop-outs or bandaids that don't really work, only cause side effects, and make drug companies money. To these people, depression is something only the weak cannot work past. It is a matter of psychological abnormality, therefore, drugs are not necessary and nothing but a hoax. To many of these people, the use of these drugs is a conspiracy.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 5:57:00
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » SLS, posted by garnet71 on May 29, 2009, at 19:38:32
> Well it's not "old" news, or "old" complaints
No. It really is old, very old. It is so old that I am often resigned to just let the people who promulgate this dysinformation disappear of their own accord.
> or whatever you meant
That's what I meant. It is really old. Just look at the Psycho-Babble archives if you would like to debate how old it is.
> --in my case--considering I only found out recently other PDocs were so different from the ones I've had.
Now you have found out how old it is. That, indeed, is important information to have.
> I had never used the internet to investigate my psychiatric treatment until recently, so it's pretty new to me.
What are you talking about? I guess we crossed themes. The theme of this thread had been about the video and what it represented. That's what I was talking about, anyway.
> It may be tiresome for you to hear
And if it is, you will, of course, allow me to be tired.
This is not about you.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 30, 2009, at 6:16:02
In reply to Re: Are the drugs that we're taking killing us? » Neal, posted by jane d on May 29, 2009, at 23:39:59
> > i didn't read all the replies but; where are the million-dollar payouts we should be reading about in the newspapers?
> >
> > in this litigious society, if there was one iota of evidence of someone's dying from ADs, it would be broadcast from coast-to-coast in 2 seconds, followed by thousands of lawsuits filed the next day.
>
> Not true! But if you'd like this to be true bug your legislator to outlaw "gag agreements" in court settlements as being against the public interest. Right now you just can't tell whether or not there are big payoffs being made to keep complaints quiet in all sorts of industries. It's become standard to pay off plaintiffs providing they agree never to disclose the amount of settlement or even that they had a complaint in the first place. Good for the plaintiff, good for the offending company, but definately bad for all the rest of us. And an abuse of the court systems we all pay for.You are right about the way our litigation system can work.
Slightly off topic:
It is unfortunate that the medical and pharmaceutical investigative systems, as they have been, are riddled with conflicts of interest. However, a conflict of interest does not de facto indicate conspiracy or a breach of morals. It does not indicate that people are lying and covering things up. It does not indicate that the results of investigations of the objects of study are invalid. It is only recently that it is being questioned that there might be a breach of ethics. It is very disappointing to learn about these financial arrangements that are conflicts of interest and give the impression of wrong-doing.
I would add that most of the medical people made visible by the media to establish a case for investigative inpropriety are, in fact, our most important contributors. These are the people whom are most likely to get us well.
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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