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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Hi,
I have taken SSRI-drugs for more than 10 years. During this time I have also worked with several different therapists as well as courses in personal development and meditations. (I have also tried quit using the medication twice with no success)
Last fall I fell into one of my deepest depressions ever. I have been given a combination of SSRI-drug (Seroxat) and one named Mirtazapine.
I don't get any better (have had severe suicidal thoughts for several months) and I have started to believe that the drugs might block my recovery.
The therapist that I am currently working with (specializes in EFT - Emotional Freedom Tecnique) have put forward a hypothesis that my long use of anti-depressive might in fact block any progress and being contra-productive.
My question is therefore - do you know about other cases where anti-depressives is known to have had a negative effect if taken over such a long time that I have taken them?
//Indigodaniel
Posted by fayeroe on January 27, 2009, at 11:21:08
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
hmmmm. I can't help you any more than tell you that I've been on ADs (lots of different ones) from around 1978. (maybe that is what is wrong) :-)
If I were you, I'd talk to the med prescriber. Did a Pdoc make a DX and put you on the meds? He/she should have lots of experience, over the long run, about being on ADs for a long time.
Good luck, Faye
Posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2009, at 11:51:19
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Hi welcome to babble. Great to see you here and hope you might some support and help here. You're not alone in not finding relief on antidepressants. Mirtazapine is remeron. Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 28, 2009, at 0:01:41
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » indigodaniel, posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2009, at 11:51:19
this sort of thing is more of a religious or philosophical discourse than scientific. theres certainly narratives one can make that can support this. but you can't find out if they are true, or the opposite is true, in the sense of falsifying. the evidence, as far as it goes, shows benefit to neutral effects at the longest time periods looked at.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 7:36:23
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
It is possible that your lack of progress in psychotherapy has been due to the presence of an ungoing unresolved biological depression. While I'm sure you are learning some things, it is very difficult to process the whole Gestault. Learning is generally impaired by depression. Still, I doubt that any psychotherapy has been a complete waste of time. You probably just don't see a difference because you are looking to FEEL a difference. Depression still feels like depression. You are just not as far along as you would be without the depression. Depression can take an otherwise mentally healthy individual and make a psychological mess out of them. Keep fighting.
> I have taken SSRI-drugs for more than 10 years.
Have you had any success with this limited range of drugs? Which drugs have you tried? Which one helped most?
> Last fall I fell into one of my deepest depressions ever. I have been given a combination of SSRI-drug (Seroxat) and one named Mirtazapine.
Mirtazapine made me feel very much worse. It was a disgusting drug for ME. It is a miracle drug for others. Each individual has their own set of miracle drug and misery drugs determined by their unique biology. Knowing that a drug can make you feel worse is an important realization as you travel the road of antidepressant trials. Maybe SSRIs are not the right drugs for you. At this point, you might need a combination of drugs to hit the target.> The therapist that I am currently working with (specializes in EFT - Emotional Freedom Tecnique) have put forward a hypothesis that my long use of anti-depressive might in fact block any progress and being contra-productive.
I believe that exposure to drugs for such a long period of time can have persistent negative effects. However, there pale in comparison to the power the depression has over you. I disagree with your therapist that the kind of changes produced by antidepressants can actually prevent your personal growth. I am sure there are people who will disagree with my hypothesis, that it is the unresolved depression doing most of the damage and blockage.
I have been on antidepressant drugs for 25 years continually without having found a treatment that worked. Here I am, feeling great because of a combination of old drugs that I had tried for years plus newer drugs that took me awhile to find. I am now growing by leaps and bounds. By comparison, I was at a virtual stand-still in my personal growth.
Unfortunately, it sounds as if your medical management has been very primitive and limited. However, I really can't know that until you describe the drugs other than SSRIs that you have tried. You indicate that you have only tried SSRIs in the past?
I don't think there is any medical basis for your doctor's hypothesis. In the meantime, I don't think you can afford to place yourself in a position to believe it. In your position, I would continue to look for biological treatments that are successful. I think the odds are in your favor that finding such a treatment is possible.
One long term change that antidepressants can make is the production of treatment resistence to a drug that has worked but then discontinued. Therefore, once you find a treatment that works, try to maintain it indefinitely without discontinuation. It will increase your chances of remaining well.
- Scott
Posted by Indigodaniel on January 28, 2009, at 10:49:25
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » indigodaniel, posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 7:36:23
Dear Scott,
thanks for sharing with you of your experience. It was very useful information for me. Tomorrow I will meet my doctor to discuss possible changes in my medication.
Since I am not a native speaker I sometimes have problems understanding the exact meaning of certain words and expression. When you talk about biological treatments - is that different drugs you mean?
With great appreciation,
Daniel
Posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:21:26
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Hi Indigodaniel,
Are you, or do you suspect, you are or have the traits of an 'indigo child'? There are some very interesting thoughts that go along with that concept....
For EFT - some people SWEAR by it. I don't have money to see a provider. If you do, please try it! There are lots of things to try still. Don't give up.
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:24:13
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Indigodaniel on January 28, 2009, at 10:49:25
Hi Daniel.
> Since I am not a native speaker I sometimes have problems understanding the exact meaning of certain words and expression. When you talk about biological treatments - is that different drugs you mean?
Yes.
I use the term "biological treatments" because that term includes a wider range of treatments besides just drug treatments. For example, ECT, rTMS, DBS, VNS, and accupuncture are biological treatments, yet are not drugs. Even the use of dietary supplements is a biological treatment.
Please remain hopeful, despite temporary failure. It will help to bring you success and a better life.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:21
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:21:26
Hi Garnet (My favorite stone).
What is an indigo child?
I guess I could look it up on Google, but where's the fun in that?
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:58
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
I have intuitive thoughts about this...if your emotions are repressed by the use of SSRIs, how does one ever heal if one can't acknowledge, process, and evaluate the feelings?
I've read anxiety is the result of repressed emotions. I have had major problems with anxiety, but can't remember very much of my (abusive) childhood. Could I be healed if I can find these memories and deal with them? I don't know, but it's worth a try.
Also, the brain, hormones, neurotransmitters, intangible conscious/emotions, time-space-existence-physics, sleep; dreams, the whole endochrine system, etc., is so complicated, so interrelated, I don't think doctors/scientists know more than say - 10% of the information there is to know. Just an opinion, a guess; my 2 cents.
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:40:29
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:58
> Also, the brain, hormones, neurotransmitters, intangible conscious/emotions, time-space-existence-physics, sleep; dreams, the whole endochrine system, etc., is so complicated, so interrelated, I don't think doctors/scientists know more than say - 10% of the information there is to know. Just an opinion, a guess; my 2 cents.
I'll double it!
:-)
I agree with you.
You know, the interesting thing is that there has been an explosion in data being produced by neuroscience. The scope and depth are staggering. We know far more than we understand, unfortunately.
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:43:29
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » Garnet71, posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:21
Google away Scott!!!! I am trying to do my homework and keep getting distracted by thoughts of WTF is wrong with me.
Many say the concept of indigo children is a hoax. I would love to meet one and decide for myself. I have some similarities and in googling my personality traits, always come across indigo children sites. Also check the "highly sensitive person" - Elaine Aaron. Just others non-scientific takes on some of lifes mysteries. I have found them useful.
Yes, Garnet is my favorite stone too - you would have never guess that.
I went to a couple cities in the Czech Republic one time--the streets are lined with Garnets, as in behind glass in the jewelry stores that line th streets. It is enchanting, almost magical.
Posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:43:34
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » Garnet71, posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:21
Google away Scott!!!! I am trying to do my homework and keep getting distracted by thoughts of WTF is wrong with me.
Many say the concept of indigo children is a hoax. I would love to meet one and decide for myself. I have some similarities and in googling my personality traits, always come across indigo children sites. Also check the "highly sensitive person" - Elaine Aaron. Just others non-scientific takes on some of lifes mysteries. I have found them useful.
Yes, Garnet is my favorite stone too - you would have never guess that.
I went to a couple cities in the Czech Republic one time--the streets are lined with Garnets, as in behind glass in the jewelry stores that line th streets. It is enchanting, almost magical.
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:22:28
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
> Hi,
>
> I have taken SSRI-drugs for more than 10 years. During this time I have also worked with several different therapists as well as courses in personal development and meditations. (I have also tried quit using the medication twice with no success)
>
> Last fall I fell into one of my deepest depressions ever. I have been given a combination of SSRI-drug (Seroxat) and one named Mirtazapine.
>
> I don't get any better (have had severe suicidal thoughts for several months) and I have started to believe that the drugs might block my recovery.
>
> The therapist that I am currently working with (specializes in EFT - Emotional Freedom Tecnique) have put forward a hypothesis that my long use of anti-depressive might in fact block any progress and being contra-productive.
>
> My question is therefore - do you know about other cases where anti-depressives is known to have had a negative effect if taken over such a long time that I have taken them?
>
>
> //Indigodaniel
>Hello Indigodaniel,
My depression began rather abruptly based on situational episodes that my brain (emotions) simply couldn't handle. It snowballed into complete numbness and apathy. After 3 months on an antidepressant that allowed me to feel my feelings again, I'm just now starting therapy. And for the first time I feel ready.
For me, it would have been mostly a waste of my time and the therapists to have started sooner. Some would disagree but when you are so shut down that talking would not be helpful, whats the point (again, for me).
You may be very different, but I wonder if Scott has a point in that if you could get some result from your medication treatment, that may pave the way for a more productive outcome with your therapist. I don't know you so its hard to say but you may want to give that some thought.
So in answer to your question, I know plenty of people who have been on long term anti-depressants and stay on them because they work, or switch occasionally because they stop working.
I haven't noticed a negative effect in any of them, but most have gotten relief for good periods of time, making therapy a useful tool in getting well.I hope that makes sense and helps!
Good Luck to you,~Jade
PS-There may be a reason those SSri's are no longer helping you. If you were to run a thread regarding that, there are some very smart people here that may have some good ideas to run by your PDoc.
Posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 12:27:06
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:27:58
I may be jumping in w/something that isn't really what you're talking about in this thread, but you bring something up for me.
I've been in therapy for many years. I've also suffered from several bouts of severe depression during those years, which I've gone on medication to alleviate the symptoms so that I could "supposedly" work with my therapy. But, I've found that the SSRIs blunted my emotions and made working on my issues even more difficult because I was unable to access my feelings as well. I think this has prolonged my healing immensely, although I do understand the need for me to have gone on those medications.
I believe that therapy can cause depression. Maybe I don't mean it in quite that way, but therapy can bring forth such emotional things and a downward spiral that has required medication for me. I have PTSD and there were roads I could never have travled in my therapy w/o the support of medication.
But... w/o the medication, I can actually "feel" things, which has helped me make a lot of progress in therapy, in a quicker albeit more painful way.
I don't know how it really works. I know I have cycles of depression and while I'm not depressed now, I know that at some point in my future life, it will hit again and I will have to deal with it.
antigua
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:51:40
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » Garnet71, posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 12:27:06
> I may be jumping in w/something that isn't really what you're talking about in this thread, but you bring something up for me.
>
> I've been in therapy for many years. I've also suffered from several bouts of severe depression during those years, which I've gone on medication to alleviate the symptoms so that I could "supposedly" work with my therapy. But, I've found that the SSRIs blunted my emotions and made working on my issues even more difficult because I was unable to access my feelings as well. I think this has prolonged my healing immensely, although I do understand the need for me to have gone on those medications.
>
> I believe that therapy can cause depression. Maybe I don't mean it in quite that way, but therapy can bring forth such emotional things and a downward spiral that has required medication for me. I have PTSD and there were roads I could never have travled in my therapy w/o the support of medication.
>
> But... w/o the medication, I can actually "feel" things, which has helped me make a lot of progress in therapy, in a quicker albeit more painful way.
>
> I don't know how it really works. I know I have cycles of depression and while I'm not depressed now, I know that at some point in my future life, it will hit again and I will have to deal with it.
> antigua
>
>Hi antigua,
I actually think we're really saying the same thing though. I think the point being if you are emotionally shut down, I mean numb, and you can undo some of that, whether it be by starting OR stopping a certain medication, it seems to me therapy would be more productive.
My current medication treatment (not an SSRI) has allowed me to feel what I need to feel. I do actually believe that had I gone into therapy before being treated biologically for my depression, I may have had some kind of breakdown. I'm not looking forward to therapy, it will be painful, but I'm ready and its necessary.
~Jade
Posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 13:06:12
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » antigua3, posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 12:51:40
OK, I see what you're saying. I've found that medication has helped and hurt my therapy, but it has been necessary. I needed the drugs to blunt my feelings enough so that I could travel down difficult paths, and once I reached some difficult places, the medication helped me handle it better. But, when I'm at the most difficult junctures (and how do I know what those really are; I'm probably full of it, thinking I know these things), I've made greater progress being off the meds and being able to feel.
It's like a juggling act. I need the meds to get there, but I need to be off of them sometimes to go deeper. But I wouldn't have gotten there w/o the meds to relieve the depression that these feelings have caused.
I don't know. I'm probably wrong. It's probably a lot more biological than I want to admit. And I certainly understand you saying that you need to be stabilized before you are strong enough to begin the therapy.
Wishing you the best of luck,
antigua
Posted by Cseagraves on January 28, 2009, at 13:40:25
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
Dear Indigo,
If you look above you will find a thread called "Long term SSRI use has destabilized me" posted by "New Questions". These posts might help you with your question.
As you can see when you read these post that alot of people are feeling that ssri's might be causing more damage than good.
I feel in my case, they have.
Courtney
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:03
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Cseagraves on January 28, 2009, at 13:40:25
Hi Courtney.
> As you can see when you read these post that alot of people are feeling that ssri's might be causing more damage than good.
>
> I feel in my case, they have.
In what ways have SSRIs damaged you?
- Scott
Posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 14:25:26
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » JadeKelly, posted by antigua3 on January 28, 2009, at 13:06:12
> OK, I see what you're saying. I've found that medication has helped and hurt my therapy, but it has been necessary. I needed the drugs to blunt my feelings enough so that I could travel down difficult paths, and once I reached some difficult places, the medication helped me handle it better. But, when I'm at the most difficult junctures (and how do I know what those really are; I'm probably full of it, thinking I know these things), I've made greater progress being off the meds and being able to feel.
>
> It's like a juggling act. I need the meds to get there, but I need to be off of them sometimes to go deeper. But I wouldn't have gotten there w/o the meds to relieve the depression that these feelings have caused.
>
> I don't know. I'm probably wrong. It's probably a lot more biological than I want to admit. And I certainly understand you saying that you need to be stabilized before you are strong enough to begin the therapy.
>
> Wishing you the best of luck,
> antiguaHi antigua,
Don't know if you'll get this but first, I want to apologize. I reread your post and was unaware you were suffering from PTSD. I really feel it was wrong for me to try and understand what treatment would or wouldn't be best for someone with your diagnosis. And I'm sorry you suffered whatever you did.
Second, my symptoms of complete shutdown were well into place before I started treatment, so we have a difference there as well.
It seems to me its all so individual, my cognitive skills were crap while I was depressed, I'm still dealing with that, ha. And we're to go get the best care while in that condition.
Its all very difficult but doable. I think it just takes longer for us to figure it out when in a diminished state of mind.
I hope you get this and good luck to you ;-)
~Jade
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2009, at 17:12:22
In reply to Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by indigodaniel on January 27, 2009, at 9:24:11
SLS has a lot of wisdom. Check his posts again. I would emphasize the general notion/opinion that SSRIs are rather limited and not dependable longterm. It does represent a rather conservative and primitive treatment protocol to use just them. Mirtazapine was a reasonable option but didn't work right. That's ok. There is still Nortriptyline, Cymbalta, Desipramine, Nardil, Parnate, Marplan, Abilify, Zyprexa, Ritalin, Lamictal. Not sure if Effexor was one you tried or not. It is unique in its power. Lexapro too, even though it is an ssri, seems to change its personality in a very good way when combined with risperdal or abilify.
More than likely it would be a combination of 2 or 3 of those that you really need to be your best, not a simple limited ssri thing.
I do not think any amount of psychological warfare, regardless of how talented it is, will fix a biochemical problem. You kind of have to instinctively decide whether your symptoms are psychologically based, biologically based, or a mix of both.
Some people who are mercury toxic from amalgams are told to go to psychotherapy for their depression. I tell you what, no amount of talking or EFT or massage or anything is going to get that mercury out of the cells. It is a biological thing that needs a biological treatment. It's kind of the same with biologically caused depression.
Psychological therapy helps in terms of understanding it all and learning coping techniques that make it less overwhelming. It helps make the burden feel lighter, but does not make the burden go away.
Posted by antigua3 on January 29, 2009, at 11:01:01
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » antigua3, posted by JadeKelly on January 28, 2009, at 14:25:26
Absolutely no need to apologize. You didn't say a thing that offended me.
I understand where you're coming from and wish you the very best. If I can ever be of help, please don't hesitate to let me know.
antigua
Posted by Jadekelly on January 29, 2009, at 13:12:19
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives » JadeKelly, posted by antigua3 on January 29, 2009, at 11:01:01
Posted by Indigodaniel on January 29, 2009, at 15:01:06
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by Garnet71 on January 28, 2009, at 11:21:26
interesting concept indigo child. I have honestly never come across it before but will certainly look into it.
When it comes to EFT I will continue working with it and hope that it will help me together with changed medication.
id
Posted by Indigodaniel on January 29, 2009, at 15:17:34
In reply to Re: Risk of prolonged use of anti-depressives, posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 11:24:13
Scott, thanks for sharing of your experience. It has given me some valuable insights.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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