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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Extreme on November 7, 2008, at 5:34:46
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by yxibow on November 7, 2008, at 0:01:33
First of all, and I think this one could be in our lifetime... identify ALL substances that governs the rest in the body and target those. If science is able to find the very "foundation" of the mind and body chemistry I think it would then be easy to find medicines that target the very basic of our experiences in life.
Second.. which yxibow spoke about... there is work to be done with ourselves... a chemical solution is not THE solution because we are not just DNA and chemistry, we are much more than that and we KNOW that we affect chemistry within ourselves. A nice thing to have in the future is some kind of "mind-meter" that measures all the important things that goes on in the body and the brain so we can see what emotions and thoughts does to us chemically... trace them back to their origin (the orginal thought/emotion in time) and learn things from ourselves never before possible. Maybe a little wristwatch would acomplish that in the future!
I have a very positive view on the future when it comes to technology... it will not be THE soulution to everything just as pure chemical solutions wont be it... but it will help us very much if we are WILLING to make something good of it.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 7, 2008, at 5:45:33
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by yxibow on November 7, 2008, at 0:01:33
I guess I see in this that there are a lot of people who are stabilized successfully on medication and are enjoying their lives.
>
> Yes, its semantics.
>
> But it also begets "perfection" and a bit of "magical thinking".For who?
I'm not saying for everyone -- but that there is a superdrug combination that won't have side effects some time down the road that will never be able to be predicted, there is no such thing.
How is that relevant? Each of us has to decide what our "miracle" is, and from the post, it seems for most its returning to plain old normalcy!! We're on the medical board so discussion of drug use to get there IS relavant.But I didn't see much of that anyway.Personally, I'd like to take one med. But if 2 puts me in remission? I'm gonna do it!
> I think better living through chemistry is a fine idea, but chemistry isn't perfect.
>
> There's hard work to be done besides the chemistry, and that involves other changes in life than merely medication.I can only speak for myself ,Jay, tried it all. I truly now believe that my brain chemistry is deeply impaired, and I can't repair that without chemical help.
>
> I'm sure I'm projecting because of my experience of 7 years with over a dozen substances, some that have had totally unexpected and unpleasant rare results, but I'm just trying to put perhaps what realism I've come to get from those who are caring for me.I'm truly sorry about that, maybe if I were in your shoes...but I can't help but think that along with a good dose of realism, should come a healthy dose of hope.
> I absolutely wish some of my medications didnt "poop out" or however people like to describe it, but they're holding me at bay -- while I still wish they would work like they did.
I have a close loved one that has to be drugged every day for several problems, emotional and physical. My "miracle" for him was when we d/c'd all the atyp anti psych meds, put him only on Depakote and Seroquel, and his personality is back. He can handle it and so can we. Thats a miracle to me. He will be on meds the rest of his life, and is cognitively impaired as a result. But he's amazing, and he has a life, and friends, etc. because we insisted he be taken OFF so many meds. Is this a "perfect miracle" no. But a miracle in my book nonetheless. and that was from DIS-continuing 2 meds. NOT recommending this either w/o Dr. consent. I better just shut up now.
So, semantics and interpretation of a word.Jay, if it bothers you I have no need to use that word on this board again. (I reserve the right to use a similar one when I get better!!!)
>
> You can't go back, you can only experience the presence like everyone of us does. And sometimes that plain sucks. Really does.I wish it didn't.
But I will never give up this fight and settle. I just won't do it. I want my life back. Not euphoria, just myself.
>
> To new agents, to new scientific research in our lifetimes. But we have to accept then the results of those will also have side effects and to be careful what you wish for, because newer isn't necessarily safer, and if you look up any drug on Google, you'll be bound to find the lawyer sites.
>
> I'm not trying to put a downer -- maybe I have, and its through my teary eyes that I do -- I just think that to wish, to have realistic expectations, and above all to have hope is the best cure.I agree!! I hope you see hope too, and maybe thats enough for right now. Don't give up hope. You just never know whats to come.
>
> I hope I see hope.
>
> -- JayJay, I know we've disagree on this, but it really is just semantics to me. I suffer from Atyp/Tr MDD, for going on 3 years. I'm not myself. I'm actually numb. My kids miss the old me. I've done all the work of trying to climb out of this hole with and without drugs. I won't blame myself anymore. My brain shutdown for reasons I won't go into, but yes, if a drug comes along that gives me my life back? I'm gonna consider it MY "miracle" drug. I can see why people with other disorders, or who have suffered for a very long time, it may not be healthy for them to hear repeatedly "miracle" drug. I get it, I do.
I have to be honest with you tho, what I'm doin here its not living. So if a drug comes along that I fully or even mostly respond to, and get my life back? I'm gonna take it if its been approved. Why would I worry about toxic side effects now, when If I don't get well, I'll be a different person by then anyway?
So you see the paradox were in?
If its wrong to hope, and believe that someday a drug/treatment/herb/whatever/therapy "miracle" whatever will come along and put each of us into some kind of bearable remission, (each person's "miracle", what ever that may be)-----is it not just as wrong to extinguish someone else's flame, however they choose to term it, because you don't believe in that much hope? Don't get your hopes too high! You may have a bad reaction in 5 years! If we start doing that I am SURE I could find documentation that just about every drug currently on the market may have some long term adverse effects. The effect of years of MDD on my spirit, body, and chemistry is far more dangerous to me IMHO.
I really do understand what you're saying. I just don't think its fair to shut people down when they're feelin extra hopeful. Even if it doesn't happen for em that time. I'm not refering to this post or SLS.
Friends? I hope so.
Jade
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2008, at 5:58:01
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by Extreme on November 7, 2008, at 5:34:46
I believe there are plenty of people suffering from an affective disorder who don't need to work on themselves in order to attain remission. Well-adjusted people contract mental illnesses, too. If you correct their brain function, they go merrily on their way. For these people, drug treatment is all they need.
I am indignant when someone tells me that drugs are not 100% of the answer. For me, they are. Perhaps we should speak only for ourselves regarding the need for people to work on themselves in order to get well.
Everyone has issues? Perhaps, but do they have to be psychosocial in nature? For some, feeding their family is issue enough. Living a life while being perfectly healthy has issues. Enough of "we all have issues". I don't. Do you?
- Scott
Posted by Extreme on November 7, 2008, at 7:31:41
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 7, 2008, at 5:58:01
Scott:
Hm, were you answering me now or... someone else in here?
Anyway... my opinion is that it should be up to oneself to define what one needs really and defining the situation that one is in... because I have lived a whole life of medicating myself... I dont recomend it to others.. but it is my way in this life. I myself need to have that kind of control when it comes to my mind and my life.
The issue of something being psysical or mental in MY life... is so "lucid" that I am actually in desperate need of that "magic wristwatch" that can monitor the substances in my body and brain..it would help me a lot to actually SEE what goes on and help me decide if a KBT-technique or a medication would be the optimal solution for a specific problm. The way my life is now... I am making more or less qualified guesses all the time about my condition.
Posted by SLS on November 7, 2008, at 8:23:29
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by Extreme on November 7, 2008, at 7:31:41
> Scott:
>
> Hm, were you answering me now or... someone else in here?No.
I was not targeting you. It was just a general rant. I'm not sure what triggered it, but I've been meaning to say it for a long time.
- Scott
Posted by Extreme on November 7, 2008, at 8:32:08
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » Extreme, posted by SLS on November 7, 2008, at 8:23:29
Oh okey, Scott.. well, I wanted to write my general view on things anyway too.. so everything good.
Posted by B2chica on November 7, 2008, at 12:18:21
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
i think other posters have said it best.
i don't expect there to be one single pill that does it all. we are infact too complicated for that. but the miracle combination would:Llurpsie said it right with: Miracle Drug = relief of symptoms long-term, with negligible side effects and reasonable cost and ease of administration.
Must also agree with Racer's definitions, including wide demographic, mild SE (or for me personally i'd like weight loss as a Side Effect)
no drug/food interactions
once a day dosage, NO Hospital administration needed.
no bloodwork needed
and Absolutely affordable******************
and mostly
-to work!, bring me out of the pit of despair WITHOUT altering my normal personality.
-help with altertness and attention
-eliminate fatigue
-and NO food cravings!
Posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2008, at 12:37:53
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » SLS, posted by B2chica on November 7, 2008, at 12:18:21
Scott good you got that rant out. Supporting that. In my case so many of my issues are psycological with bad marriages, kids in trouble, grandkids etc. I feel me learning to cope and accept all the losses in past including my Mothers death at an early age and raising myself would have kept me from experiencing that first panic attack. funny at the time was so young and in CT then that the doc just gave me a cardboard small box with pills and instructions never told me what they were and never was so young questioned the docs. And the pills always worked. I think mentally fighting for me at my age is best. Small doses of meds but using stronger agents now could harm me. I think back to my nursing career, traveling, raising three kids, and running a business first. I feel I've Lived a life. I just miss it and wish there was a magic pill with no waiting as don't have the time. I truly enjoy helping the others on this site and educating myself. And who knows ons day a med I feel in my heart is right for me will just pop at at me. I appreciate this thread. So many experiences. Thanks Scott. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2008, at 13:20:49
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » Extreme, posted by SLS on November 7, 2008, at 8:23:29
Scott still have your wonderful website? So many new people might enjoy it so creative and informative. Love Phillipa
Posted by ricker on November 7, 2008, at 13:44:46
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
I'm not holding my breath, they can't cure the common cold!
Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2008, at 17:57:03
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by ricker on November 7, 2008, at 13:44:46
I drug that works now, works later
and doesn't leave you more f*ck*d up down the road.Seeing as nobody in this room has taken a drug that fits that definition, I see no proof of the existence of a miracle drug.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on November 7, 2008, at 18:07:36
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2008, at 17:57:03
The miracle drugs are the herbs that civilisation refined and rendered toxic.
Take your pick, there's quite a few.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 7, 2008, at 18:42:57
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2008, at 17:57:03
> I drug that works now, works later
> and doesn't leave you more f*ck*d up down the road.
>
> Seeing as nobody in this room has taken a drug that fits that definition, I see no proof of the existence of a miracle drug.
>
> Linkadge
Maybe they are well and have left the building.~Jade
Posted by Zyprexa on November 7, 2008, at 19:09:57
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
Made life berable. Got me out of the house. Removed pain from my stomack. Made my head think straight. Got me to excell at work. Made me happy with life. Made me a better person that before. Gave me my appatite back. Got me to sleep again. Pleasant to take, no harsh side effects.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on November 8, 2008, at 1:26:36
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » yxibow, posted by JadeKelly on November 7, 2008, at 5:45:33
a miracle drug would return me to my upbeat days before the meds
and keep anger and darkness away
Posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 7:26:02
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » linkadge, posted by JadeKelly on November 7, 2008, at 18:42:57
I know but you didn't read all three postulates of my definition.
Sure, they may be "well" and have left the building but:
2) Will the drug work down the road ?
3) Will the drug not cause irriversable damage to their brain or body?
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 9:16:44
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » JadeKelly, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 7:26:02
> I know but you didn't read all three postulates of my definition.
>
> Sure, they may be "well" and have left the building but:
>
> 2) Will the drug work down the road ?That is a question that has been answered. The answer is YES. People have been kept well on antidepressants for decades. I have had the privilege to encounter these people and the doctors who treat them to be able to report with surety that your question has THE answer, and it is in the affirmative.
> 3) Will the drug not cause irriversable damage to their brain or body?
50 years of tricyclics and MAOIs, and 20 years of SSRIs cast doubt that such things occur. It is much more dangerous to allow someone to remain severely and suicidally depressed than to take a "chance" that these will eventually show themselves to be toxic in real life years and years and years down the road. As of now, they do not seem to be toxic IN REAL LIFE.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on November 8, 2008, at 12:11:03
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 9:16:44
Hi Scott,
<< That is a question that has been answered. The answer is YES. People have been kept well on antidepressants for decades. I have had the privilege to encounter these people and the doctors who treat them to be able to report with surety that your question has THE answer, and it is in the affirmative.>>
Hmm, I know people who have a different answer, including myself. Antidepressants have destroyed my life. I will spare you the details but you can find similar stories on the Paxil Progress Boards, run by an RN whose son almost committed suicide/homicide on Paxil. The board gets about 1 million to 3 million hits per month.
<< Will the drug not cause irriversable damage to their brain or body?
>
> 50 years of tricyclics and MAOIs, and 20 years of SSRIs cast doubt that such things occur.>>You might want to look at these two citations:
http://tinyurl.com/3va3j2
http://tinyurl.com/6h89p2Also, check this site out:
http://qualitycounts.com/drugs/antidepressants.html
It has some articles in favor of ADS but also has some articles that show they have long term risks.
<<It is much more dangerous to allow someone to remain severely and suicidally depressed than to take a "chance" that these will eventually show themselves to be toxic in real life years and years and years down the road. As of now, they do not seem to be toxic IN REAL LIFE.>>
Now, we're getting to the crux of the issue. Regarding when side effects start appearing, I started having problems 5 years after starting ADS. Many I know report similar experiences, including some who have adverse reactions immediately.
A far as someone being suicidally depressed, meds is not the only answer. Fish oil capsules, vitamin D, and CBT are among many things that have shown to help. Charles Barber, who is not antimeds and is in the mental health field, wrote about CBT helping severe depression in some cases.
Also, recently, a study came out in Science Daily that shows St. Johns Wort to be helpful with major depression. St. Johns Wort is not side effect free but in my opinion, compared to psych meds, it is a piece of cake.
If the person who is suicidally depressed makes a fully informed choice to go on meds, I have no problem with that. But since these are powerful meds, the physicians should reassess on a regular basis with the patient whether the meds are still needed. Sentencing someone to life on meds is simply wrong and unjust the links I have provided show the risk of long term side effects.
Again, if the person feels their risk of suicide is greater than the med risks and is fully informed of all the options, I have no problem with that. But many times, that is not the case.
Scott, I am happy the meds are working for you and have given you a new life. But as with any issue, there is always another side to the story and I hope you will take the time to understand my point of view.
Obviously, I totally agree with what Linkage has posted.
49er
Posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 12:51:50
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by 49er on November 8, 2008, at 12:11:03
I now believe there is no miracle drug for me. Just ones that poop out and/or don't work when revisited. I feel like the walking wounded.
Posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:16:47
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 9:16:44
>That is a question that has been answered. The >answer is YES.
No, the answer is "we don't know". When a person takes a drug for a long period of time and remains well, there is no way of telling whether it is the drug that kept them well, or whether they naturally went into remission.
Also, nobody has proven that these medication are not toxic to the body / brain in the long term.
So, sorry, I don't think you have satisfied *my* 3 criteria of a miracle drug.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:23:36
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by 49er on November 8, 2008, at 12:11:03
Thanks for your comments. I thinnk people just *want* to belive certain things. Some people just put blinders up.
I am not saying AD's don't do something for some people. But, there is no such thing as a *miracle* drug.
My mother thought doxapin was a miracle drug. Her psychiatrist recently told her that her newly diagnosed type II diabeties was probably related to use of doxapin. Doxapin was also giving her severe hypertension for a long time before anybody diagnosed it. The funny thing is that she won't believe it. She has put doxapin on this pedastal and will not believe anything negative about it. But you know, some people are just like that. I think my mother needs a little more grey matter in certain cortial regions.
Linkadge
Posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 18:23:38
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » 49er, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:23:36
I thinnk people just *want* to belive certain things. Some people just put blinders up.
>So very true, we do agree on one thing.
I for one do not have blinders on. I do believe certain things. For Example:
1. Scary behavior while one is on an A/D is not always the meds fault. Could it not be true that the very problem that caused this person to seek meds also caused the behavior? Yes, it could.
2. If a person who has led a relatively problem free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts for 2-3 years, do you really think that this person is going to hop up one day in remission? When all efforts at talking and "clean Living" haven't changed a da*n thing? I wonder what damage has already been done to this person's brain chemistry, spirit, and body? Don't you?
3. Lets just leave that person in bed and wait for a drug that ABSOLUTELY has no long term adverse effects. Lets wait for a drug that works for THE REST OF THIS PERSONS LIFE, when said med may only be needed for say, 1 year to restore this persons chemistry.
4. Hel*, Lets not even have a look at what meds have worked on similar cases because, well, that med might show signs of toxicity when this formally fully functioning person turns 99.
5. Might, maybe, could. I could be run over by a truck tomorrow. I'm betting this person doesn't just "want to", but DOES believe that NO LIFE is far more dangerous than a lot of A/D's on the market. In fact, I'm CERTAIN of it.
~Jade
Posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 18:28:37
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by 49er on November 8, 2008, at 12:11:03
Hi.
>> That is a question that has been answered. The answer is YES. People have been kept well on antidepressants for decades. I have had the privilege to encounter these people and the doctors who treat them to be able to report with surety that your question has THE answer, and it is in the affirmative.>>
>
> Hmm, I know people who have a different answer, including myself.I'm sorry to hear that. I know people who have not been adequately treated too. Would you say such an experience represents the majority or the minority?
> Antidepressants have destroyed my life. I will spare you the details
Don't spare me the details if you have the energy to share them. I would really like to know.
Many people experience a suicidal reaction to certain antidepressants, but usually not all of them. Some people become suicidal because the drug makes them feel worse. Others become suicidal because the drug makes them feel better.
It is too bad that the Internet produces so many horror stories without demonstrating the success rate that represents the majority. Happy people have nothing to complain about, I guess.
- Scott
Posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 19:33:02
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 18:28:37
Happy people have nothing to complain about, I guess.
That sentence upset me. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling articulate enough to express why.
Posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 19:56:14
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » SLS, posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 19:33:02
> Happy people have nothing to complain about, I guess.
>
> That sentence upset me. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling articulate enough to express why.I had meant to convey the idea that people who respond well to treatment don't usually show up on the Internet looking for negative things to say about their experiences. Hyperbole, perhaps.
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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