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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 17 to 41 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by Marty on June 27, 2008, at 9:11:18
In reply to Re: ))Horned One » GWA, posted by Horned One on June 26, 2008, at 18:51:36
Horned,
I'm in the same situation as you: It's my day 17 on Tianeptine, it's helping me a lot and I ordered my second batch too late and I'm about to run out of it..... I hope I won't feel too bad because I think I'll be without any for at least 1 week.
Since when you don't have any Tianeptine and what are your withdrawal effects ?
/\/\arty
Posted by Horned One on June 27, 2008, at 11:44:20
In reply to Re: ))Horned One » Horned One, posted by Marty on June 27, 2008, at 9:11:18
Just the return of bodily pain, depression, anxiety/uneasiness. I had no withdrawal symptoms as such, but it was hard just because tianeptine had been so effective at improving my symptoms. I did seem to become slightly manic about three days after I ran out. I don't know if the two events are related, but I think tianeptine may have been keeping my stable.
Luckily my order arrived yesterday, and today I'm feeling great. I took five tablets yesterday just to boost the response and it seems to have worked. I will definately ask my doctor to see if we can find a way to import this drug on prescription. I can't imagine lofepramine being as effective and tolerable (that's the alternative), and I'm not keen on going back on Parnate while I'm having a good response to tianeptine. I may end up having to just buy it for as long as I need it.
Tianeptine has saved me once again.
-Horny
Posted by Marty on June 27, 2008, at 23:53:07
In reply to Re: ))Horned One » Marty, posted by Horned One on June 27, 2008, at 11:44:20
"but I think tianeptine may have been keeping my stable" ...
... well maybe it's not called "STABLon" for nothing after all ;) (STABLON is the trademark name of Tianeptine)
I feel it keeps me stable too.. and more "connected / grounded" to reality. While I'm not in psychosis I wonder if for some it doesn't have for some (rarely) antipsychotic properties.
btw Horned, do you feel a little 'smarter' on Tianeptine ?
/\/\arty
Posted by psychobot5000 on June 28, 2008, at 17:10:51
In reply to Re: ))Horned One » Horned One, posted by Marty on June 27, 2008, at 23:53:07
> btw Horned, do you feel a little 'smarter' on Tianeptine ?
>
> /\/\artyJust ran across this thread - tianeptine is awesome. Raises my mood with essentially no side-effects - nothing I've ever taken besides it does that -you all know how bad AD side-effects often are.
I do sometimes feel it makes me a tiny bit sharper -from what I've read, it may slightly raise dopamine levels in a few areas of the brain, something like 18% or so, which might account for that effect.
As for Tianeptine's lack of availability, I think there are two plausible explanations which don't quite make it into conspiracy theory. The first is that, despite the lack of evidence, the (arguably slightly silly) low-serotonin theory is the dominant popular understanding of the problem, and we know too little about the problem to offer a theory that's much better, so it stays on top by default, helped by waves of pharm company advertising of course. Implicitly, its conclusions prevent tianeptine from being considered seriously as an AD.
But also, it took a while after Tianeptine's discovery for it to be used as an antidepressant. For whatever reason, Servier, the patent-holder, didn't get it on the market until that patent was expired. Thus, they now can't afford to spend 500 million to get tianeptine approved in, say, the US, without the ability to charge a high price for it. Tianeptine's exclusion is at least partially financial, it seems - an unfortunate side-effect of the way the patent system works.
Theoretically, they could repatent one of the isomers, or some other slightly altered forms, but for whatever reason, they haven't. Some say Servier doesn't have enough financial resources to do it.
But I love tianeptine - glad to hear others are getting some good use out of it.
-Psychbot
Posted by Marty on June 28, 2008, at 20:32:57
In reply to Re: ))Horned One, posted by psychobot5000 on June 28, 2008, at 17:10:51
Wow. It's the first time I see so many people at once saying Tianeptine really works for them :D
"The few, the proud, the Tianeptined !"Seriously, it seems to be one of the most exclusive club here. I hope to stay lucky enough to stay in that club as long as I need it.
BTW, what effects coffee is having on you guys ? (With and Without Tianeptine) just wondering if it help your mood ...
/\/\arty
Posted by psychobot5000 on June 29, 2008, at 11:48:20
In reply to Re: ))Horned One » psychobot5000, posted by Marty on June 28, 2008, at 20:32:57
>
> Wow. It's the first time I see so many people at once saying Tianeptine really works for them :D>
> Seriously, it seems to be one of the most exclusive club here. I hope to stay lucky enough to stay in that club as long as I need it.
>Been on it for years now, and it still works.
> BTW, what effects coffee is having on you guys ? (With and Without Tianeptine) just wondering if it help your mood ...
>
> /\/\artyCoffee makes me jittery - too much stimulation. I prefer tea, which has some mild anti-anxiety chemicals to sort of balance the stimulants. Either way, coffee or tea, tianeptine makes it a little easier to take (for me), because of its anxiolytic qualities.
Posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:09:53
In reply to That's very interesting, considering... » linkadge, posted by Racer on June 19, 2008, at 9:46:04
Oh its a conspiracy Racer. For sure. The government and FDA are determined to prevent any drug that actually enhances the libido in any way (not just whether a man can get it up mind you) from making it to market here. They will say and do anything to prevent that. Tianeptine was developed by Survector after their original creation Amineptine was shot down once it was discovered that women were often having spontaneous orgasms while taking it (no joke). The FDA disapproved the drug citing the possibility that it would promote drug-seeking behavior. Of course, they also tried to say there were possible dangers to the heart as well, which is fascinating since I can find NO mention of that problem actually occurring in any of the information I have found about the drug. Enter Tianeptine......after being shot down with Amineptine, Survector developed Tianeptine and applied for the right to manufacture and market it here. But heavens, this drug has also been known to increase sexual desire, particularly in women, although it is not as potent as the originating drug, Amineptine. "Oh no", says Mr. FDA man. Disapproved. This might encourage dependency as well (note...no evidence of such, just the FDA stating it might be so).
By the way, if a drug works to improve the quality of life that all of us experience, I do believe that we are all going to want it. So, if that is drug-seeking behavior, then yes, that will occur. And the problem is...........
Posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:58:06
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering..., posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:09:53
Shoot. Meant to say Servier. Don't know why I typed Survector. ARGGGHHH! I need brain help!
Posted by Marty on June 30, 2008, at 17:31:10
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering..., posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:09:53
> Oh its a conspiracy Racer. For sure. The >government and FDA are determined to prevent any >drug that actually enhances the libido in any >way (not just whether a man can get it up mind >you) from making it to market here. They will >say and do anything to prevent that.
I don't know if 'conspiracy' is the good term to describe what happened but... Servier, the maker of Amineptine and Tianeptine (note: SURVECTOR is the trademark name of Amineptine, not the maker name), wanted to market Tianeptine (Stablon) for other disorder than depression/anxiety at the beginning. It was that good for the first label they choose and wasn't approvable for that in any decent country. By the time they choose to sell it for depression/anxiety (end 80's) their PATENT WAS EXPIRED and so there was little money to be made with it in the USA especially considering the money it takes to play the FDA games (clinical trials etc). What makes look the whole thing like a conspiracy is that it's TRUE that the FDA wasn't interested in having this drug approved: FDA is not only interested in protecting the health of the Americans, they are also interested in PROTECTING THE US MARKET AND THE AMERICAN PLAYER IN THIS MARKET. Servier is an european bigpharm company, not an American one. The fact is that the FDA WOULD ALLOW Tianeptine to be approve here, BUT NOT BEFORE ANOTHER GOOD TIANEPTINE-LIKE (SSRE?) antidepressant MADE IN USA got approved and marketed. One of the MANY example of this trend is PROZAC which has been, is and will always be labeled as the FIRST SSRI. Well the fact is that there were many other SSRIs before PROZAC but there were not MADE IN USA and so they didn't approved them UNTIL they got their first one approved.. All American Prozac. It's a form of (Market) PROTECTIONISM. For the record: Americans then was targetting norepinephine and NOT serotonin. Europeans was the one targeting serotonin and Americans was making fun of them and are sometimes doing even today; they consider Europeans science calibre to be inferior to theirs.
So we can conclude the FDA was quite happy to NOT have to do ANYTHING in order to protect their market against Tianeptine: Servier shoot themself in the foot because of the time they took to cash on their patents in the USA. After that the cost of entry to market in the USA (the FDA $$$ game of approval) was enough to discourage Servier to EVEN TRY SERIOUSLY. Game Over.
>Tianeptine was developed by Survector after >their original creation Amineptine was shot down >once it was discovered that women were often >having spontaneous orgasms while taking it (no >joke).This is not even one of the main reasons Amineptine (Survector) was withdraw from the market around the WORLD. MANY meds, (even SSRIs!) has this side effect for some woman. Tianeptine wasn't inducing this RARE side effect more often than any other.
> The FDA disapproved the drug citing the >possibility that it would promote drug-seeking >behavior.'Drug-Seeking' behaviour IS the main reason why it was withdraw. It is a fact Amineptine was addictive, but it was wrong to withdraw it totaly just like it would be wrong to withdraw the benzos and all other FDA Scheduled drugs. It should have been Scheduled so that a limited numbers of treatment resistant patient could benefit from it. When someone is depressed and had never tried any AD before then Amineptine would have been a unacceptable risk from a medical practionner point of view, BUT is someone else is depressed AND FAILED SEVERAL AD TRIALS ETC... then it becomes a calculated and acceptable risk : Chances of suicide > Chances of 'evil drug-seeking behaviours'.
> Enter Tianeptine......after being shot down >with Amineptine, Survector developed Tianeptine >and applied for the right to manufacture and >market it here. But heavens, this drug has also >been known to increase sexual desire, >particularly in women, although it is not as >potent as the originating drug, Amineptine. "Oh >no", says Mr. FDA man. Disapproved. This might >encourage dependency as well (note...no evidence >of such, just the FDA stating it might be so).
There's evidences Tianeptine is potentially addictive FOR PEOPLE UNDER 25. What about labelling it "PROHIBITED FOR PEOPLE UNDER 25" then ? That said, the whole thing isn't about libido/orgasmic effects. What about the "Barbie Drug" that is coming ? supposed to give us a good tan, full of libido and makes us loose weight ? You think the FDA wouldn't approve it ? Possible.
> By the way, if a drug works to improve the >quality of life that all of us experience, I do >believe that we are all going to want it. So, if >that is drug-seeking behavior, then yes, that >will occur. And the problem is.......................is that it's not the point. drug-seeking behaviours (dependancy) isn't the same thing as something that induce desires. Porsches and Ferrari aren't ban because everyone would want one and Porches and Ferrari doesn't possess the ability to BYPASS our jugement/rational faculties and REWIRED our brains to be obsess by them to the point of causing trouble to ourself and others. Got my point ?
Did you tried Tineptine ? If so what do you think of it ? any orgasms ? ;)
/\/\artykeywords: FDA, Tianeptine, Stablon, approval, US, Canada, the history of tianeptine, amineptine.
Posted by Marty on June 30, 2008, at 17:33:43
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering..., posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:58:06
> Shoot. Meant to say Servier. Don't know why I typed Survector. ARGGGHHH! I need brain help!
I heard ORGASMS was good for womans memory ;)
In fact I think that's the reason woman always remember me. XDTried Nootropics ?
/\/\arty
Posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 18:43:29
In reply to The truth about Tianeptine (Stablon) » WickedGirl, posted by Marty on June 30, 2008, at 17:31:10
ROTFLMAO Marty!!! Any orgasms.....teeheehee.
OK Mr. Grouchy (kidding), you have explained several issues with Amineptine way better than I could (hence my desire for Tianeptine). However, I will tell you right now that I know ZERO women (myself included) who have any increase in desire on SSRI's or SNRI's thank you very much. I have also read only about women who all had the same experience as me on these drugs....the complete and permanent death of the desire for sex. I have not taken an anti-depressant (other than a one day attempt at Cymbalta) since 1997, and I have never regained my sex drive in all those intervening years. I used to be quite frisky....took Prozac (amongst others) and the sex drive was dead in a week. Yes, I know it is supposed to take six weeks to have an effect. Well not with me. So boo-hoo....I have lost my sex drive, and I wouldn't mind something to make me a raving sex fiend once in a while instead of a cold, dead fish.
You most definitely stated more of the facts in general than I did, but I also have done plenty of reading where the authors made some very good cases about why Amineptine was not brought to this country and then Tianeptine. Neither is an SSRI, so the FDA did not need to wait until we came up with our own at all before approving one of the Servier drugs. They just didn't want to. As a woman in this country, I have some significant insight into how we are treated by the predominantly male medical establishment. You would think a bunch of horny women running around would be a good thing, but from I have read, and from the blatant, in-my-face lying done to me by the male doctors (oh no...there isn't any sexual dysfunction...in fact this may increase your libido), that is the last thing the medical community and the FDA want. Now, I seriously doubt that all women would end up like that from Amineptine, but we will never know...now will we. <pout, pout>
Anyway, thank you for the private message as well. I will keep you informed, and I look forward to reading more about your thoughts here. ;P
Posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 18:46:24
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering... » WickedGirl, posted by Marty on June 30, 2008, at 17:33:43
Teehee again. You know...I tried Paracetam for a while, and I swear it made me bitchy (ok, ok bitchier). I was really grouchy onit, so I don't remember the libido thing. I take a lot of supps on a regular basis though. I have even tried things like Tribulus, Horny Goat Weed, Damiana, Maca, etc. No dice. Adderall makes the sex drive go up, but I don't want to take that permanently. Besides, the longer you take it, the more the tolerance builds and it stops working the same anyway.
Posted by Sigismund on June 30, 2008, at 23:06:49
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering..., posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:09:53
I'm hoping tianeptine has just enough side and adverse effects to pass muster.
Posted by Molybdenum on July 3, 2008, at 6:06:57
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering..., posted by WickedGirl on June 30, 2008, at 16:09:53
> Oh its a conspiracy Racer. For sure. The government and FDA are determined to prevent any drug that actually enhances the libido in any way (not just whether a man can get it up mind you) from making it to market here. They will say and do anything to prevent that.
You're spot-on WickedGirl, and here's proof:
In honour of the great & now unfortunately dead Kurt Vonnegut, here's a quote from his story "Welcome To The Monkey House" that I hope you will enjoy:) :
"...ethical birth-control pills, the only legal form of birth control, made people numb from the waist down.
Most men said their bottom halves felt like cold iron or balsa wood. Most women said their bottom halves felt like wet cotton or stale ginger ale. The pills were so effective that you could blindfold a man who had taken one, tell him to recite the Gettysburg Address, kick him in the balls while he was doing it, and he wouldn't miss a syllable.
The pills were ethical because they didn't interfere with a persons ability to reproduce, which would have been unnatural and immoral. All the pills did was take every bit of pleasure out of sex.
Thus did science and morals go hand in hand."
Posted by satsumas on July 3, 2008, at 13:35:29
In reply to Re: That's very interesting, considering... » WickedGirl, posted by Molybdenum on July 3, 2008, at 6:06:57
great thread. I wanted to try tianeptine but my doctor suggested desipramine first as he hadn't had much experience with tianeptine and said that a well known bipolar researcher at Stanford wasn't all that enthused about tianeptine's efficacy in BP depression.
i'm now in the process of tapering up on desipramine (at 75, dr says eventually i should be at 125 or 150) and going down from effexor (at 112.5, coming off from 300, where I finally felt good for the first time in 2 years, but had slight hypomania and strong cravings and apathy).
Where I am right now is feeling pretty blah, but with a bit more energy (assume that's desipramine) but i don't feel the "okayness" and lack of obsessive thoughts, and optimism and excitement and capcity for pleasure that I did when effexor was at 300 (which i'm assuming was from the serotonin effects).
MY QUESTION is: Is it OK to take desipramine with tianeptine? My Dr. hinted that they both are effectively doing the "same thing" with tianeptine increasing norep via its decrease of serotonin, but i'm not so sure about that. Does anyone have any experience with this combo?
I feel like I definitely need something for serotonin, but don't want to go the MAOI route, and i am sick of the SSRIs, and in fact any serotonin reuptake mechanism (even a serotonin based TCA).
Thanks
Satsuma
Posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 15:14:00
In reply to Tianeptine + Desipramine, posted by satsumas on July 3, 2008, at 13:35:29
I am interested in this question too because I will probably have to switch to lofepramine (metabolizes into desipramine) when I run out of tianeptine.
>I wanted to try tianeptine but my doctor suggested desipramine first as he hadn't had much experience with tianeptine and said that a well known bipolar researcher at Stanford wasn't all that enthused about tianeptine's efficacy in BP depression.
I have bipolar I and tianeptine has worked for me. It's the only antidepressant that has worked consistently.
>Is it OK to take desipramine with tianeptine?
Yes, I think so. There isn't a great deal of information about potential interactions with tianeptine though.
>y Dr. hinted that they both are effectively doing the "same thing" with tianeptine increasing norep via its decrease of serotonin, but i'm not so sure about that.
I don't think so. It doesn't feel like a nordarenergic drug in any way to me. I suspect he just doesn't want you to take tianeptine, period.
>Does anyone have any experience with this combo?
No, but I did take it with reboxetine with awful results, but that turned out to be just the reboxetine.
Q (Formerly Horned One)
Posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 16:01:39
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine, posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 15:14:00
> I am interested in this question too because I will probably have to switch to lofepramine (metabolizes into desipramine) when I run out of tianeptine.
I don't get it. Why would you run out of Tianeptine ?
/\/\arty
Posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 16:49:20
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine, posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 16:01:39
Because obviously I will run out when I've taken the last of the tablets. I don't have an indefinite supply. It's too expensive for me to keep on buying it long term, so I'll have to try an alternative that's available on prescription. Tianeptine was only a stopgap to help cover me until I got a new consultant.
Q
Posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 16:54:02
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine » Marty, posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 16:49:20
> Because obviously I will run out when I've taken the last of the tablets. I don't have an indefinite supply. It's too expensive for me to keep on buying it long term, so I'll have to try an alternative that's available on prescription. Tianeptine was only a stopgap to help cover me until I got a new consultant.
Ok but how many AD did you try so far ?/\/\arty
Posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 17:07:34
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine » Quintal, posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 16:54:02
Paroxetine
Fluvoxamine
Fluoxetine
Sertraline
Citalopram
Escitalopram
VenlafaxineMirtazapine
Dothiepin
Imipramine
Melitracen
ReboxetineMoclobemide
Selegiline
Isocarboxazid
TranylcypromineI think that's them all. So, practically everything in the book bar Nardil.
Q
Posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 17:52:50
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine » Marty, posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 17:07:34
After more than 15 ADs you finally found something that's working for you and you're thinking about switching again for "more of the same" of what didn't work the FIRST 16 TIMES ?!!
Sorry, but I'm shocked. I guess you are, like many others here including me, living with very little money for not having the choice to loose the only thing that has worked for you after so much suffering. I know because I, for one, would prefer not having a TV/Cable/Internet/Car etc than not having the money for HAVING MY BRAIN/LIFE BACK !
How much does Tianeptine cost you per month ?
Don't be shy to NOT answer the following questions as it's personnal: how old are you ? m or f ? where in the world are you living in ?Feel free to babblemail me if you prefer.
If I was Bill Gate or something I would, by empathy, send you a truck loaded of this sugar coated wonder... but I'm so broken that I, too, having difficulty paying for it myself.
/\/\arty
> Paroxetine
> Fluvoxamine
> Fluoxetine
> Sertraline
> Citalopram
> Escitalopram
> Venlafaxine
>
> Mirtazapine
> Dothiepin
> Imipramine
> Melitracen
> Reboxetine
>
> Moclobemide
> Selegiline
> Isocarboxazid
> Tranylcypromine
>
> I think that's them all. So, practically everything in the book bar Nardil.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on July 4, 2008, at 6:59:59
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine » Quintal, posted by Marty on July 3, 2008, at 17:52:50
Dothiepin and tranylcypromine both worked for me. On that basis I'm going to try lofepramine first because it's the TCA with the mildest side effects. Tianeptine doesn't do anything for my energy and motivation. I still lie in bed for hours every morning because I'm afraid of/ too tired to get up and face the day, so I'm hoping the noradrenergic effect of lofepramine will help with that. If lofepramine fails I will probably go back to Parnate. Alternatively I may try adding tianeptine to lofepramine for a while.
I'm male and I live in the UK. Tianeptine costs me around £72 for three weeks supply. As I already said, I will ask my doctor if there is a way of importing it on the NHS, but I very much doubt it. I've taken tianptine many times in the past and can live without it. It was mainly to get me out of a severe depressive episode this time. I'll probably have to limit myself to short courses when I'm very depressed if nothing else works.
Q
Posted by psychobot5000 on July 7, 2008, at 13:13:06
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Desipramine » Marty, posted by Quintal on July 3, 2008, at 17:07:34
> Paroxetine
> Fluvoxamine
> Fluoxetine
> Sertraline
> Citalopram
> Escitalopram
> Venlafaxine
>
> Mirtazapine
> Dothiepin
> Imipramine
> Melitracen
> Reboxetine
>
> Moclobemide
> Selegiline
> Isocarboxazid
> Tranylcypromine
>
> I think that's them all. So, practically everything in the book bar Nardil.
>
> Q
Have you considered trying a dopamine agonist (i.e. pramipexole or requip)? I have a similar medication history, and pramipexole was recommended to me by a depression/anxiety specialist.I do know a cheap tianeptine source - it (thankfully) allowed me to fit tianeptine into my budget. If anyone's curious about it, feel free to babblemail me - I'd be happy to provide the details to other sufferers.
Best,
Psychbot
Posted by satsumas on July 7, 2008, at 13:27:07
In reply to Re: Tianeptine » Quintal, posted by psychobot5000 on July 7, 2008, at 13:13:06
can you talk about your experiences with tianeptine? how you felt when you started, your current dose, subjective experiences, comparisions with other drugs, and whether you feel it is actually working "serotoningenically" (e.g., reducing obsessive thoughts, inducing optimism, self-esteem, etc.)?
also, are you just using it with pramipexole right now?
Posted by psychobot5000 on July 7, 2008, at 15:00:57
In reply to Re: Tianeptine » psychobot5000, posted by satsumas on July 7, 2008, at 13:27:07
> can you talk about your experiences with tianeptine? how you felt when you started, your current dose, subjective experiences, comparisions with other drugs, and whether you feel it is actually working "serotoningenically" (e.g., reducing obsessive thoughts, inducing optimism, self-esteem, etc.)?
>
> also, are you just using it with pramipexole right now?I take it alone, actually. The doc I regularly see is not particularly inclined to experimental treatments like pramipexole, and I thought the side-effects would likely be too burdensome.
As for whether it's working 'serotonergically,' I don't really believe so. I mean, I imagine its effects on serotonin cause the antidepressant effects, but I think these are changes 'further down the line.' Probably adaptive changes the brain makes - something like that. In my experience noradrenergic drugs, generalized monoamine drugs (MAOis), serotonin-increasing drugs, and the one serotonin-reducing drug all do about the same thing, just with different side-effects. This tells me that the mechanism of action probably isn't serotonin. Also, if I take an SSRI, my serotonin levels increase greatly within an hour or two, but my mood doesn't change for days, weeks, or months. Same for almost all patients.
But as for the specifics you were wondering about, I find tianeptine does reduce obsessive/anxious thinking pretty substantially. It doesn't have a direct effect on self-esteem or optimism, I would say, but lifts my whole mood a modest amount. Those are probably the primary effects I've observed.
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