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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Fivefires on November 16, 2007, at 17:44:27
In reply to Results w Deplin/Sparkle, others, posted by stargazer2 on November 16, 2007, at 17:21:54
Hi stargazer2. Just took a tab about 10minutes ago. A test of sorts. Will try and post later if can put my finger on, or identify, results. Some here say needs coinciding AD. My only other psych meds are Xanax and Provigil. (Yeah. I know.)
5f
Posted by sparkle on November 16, 2007, at 18:33:27
In reply to Re: Results w Deplin/Sparkle, others, posted by Fivefires on November 16, 2007, at 17:44:27
since you are having such miserable gastro-intestinal symptoms, i think it would be wise to take as little medicine as possible today until your stomach and cramping improves. Start with clear liquids and work your way up to solid foods and your meds and then try the deplin again. I have been dx with an atypical bipolar 2, which means i have mood swings from major depression to agitation and difficulty sleeping for days. This time of year i typically get really depressed, lethargic have alot of trouble getting going in the am. The deplin seems to have increased my energy level, concentration and kept me from getting really depressed. maybe it is coincidental but i am not ready to stop it. I have also divided the dose as was previously suggested to keep a steadier level of effectiveness. I also take carbatrol, celexa, 7.5mg deplin and rotate sleep meds as necessary lunesta, restoril or ambien. blessings, sparkle
Posted by dreamweever on November 16, 2007, at 18:45:28
In reply to Re: Anyone tried Deplin?, posted by Ron Hill on November 14, 2007, at 6:33:33
I can't seem to find out whether Deplin is available in Canada (perhaps it goes by another name in Canada)? I checked on pharmacy and the pharmacist had not heard of it.
If anyone knows if Deplin is available in Canada, could you please let me know.
Thanks.
Posted by Fivefires on November 16, 2007, at 21:31:13
In reply to Re: Results w Deplin/Sparkle, others, posted by sparkle on November 16, 2007, at 18:33:27
> since you are having such miserable gastro-intestinal symptoms, i think it would be wise to take as little medicine as possible today until your stomach and cramping improves. Start with clear liquids and work your way up to solid foods and your meds and then try the deplin again.>
Oh, you make such sense. But, already took a tablet. Over more than a couple weeks, one uncomfortable situation piled on top of another, until I'm pretty emotionally distraught. Then, yes, being so physically ill complicates things further.
>I have been dx with an atypical bipolar 2, which means i have mood swings from major depression to agitation and difficulty sleeping for days. This time of year i typically get really depressed, lethargic have alot of trouble getting going in the am. >
My dx is PTSD w/ soft borderline, but I often wonder if the jury was deadlocked and the judge dismissed the case (ha) too soon.
>The deplin seems to have increased my energy level, >
Did same for me as well upon first tablet.
>concentration and kept me from getting really depressed.>
Me too. But, then this getting physically ill and having breakthrough back pain scared me. It's hard to have chronic pain and an emotional illness. I'm on meds which I sometimes wonder are on a collision course.
I have this theory re: extruded discs in my c-spine and psych meds ... wonder if psych meds (Cymbalta did this.) somehow aggravate my injury via some sort of CNS action.(?) W/ Cymbalta, I actually 'got pain' or 'had exacerbated pain' ... NERVE pain. Enuf' rambling.
Tks for caring sparkle. Sorry can't be of any help here tonight.
>I have also divided the dose as was previously suggested to keep a steadier level of effectiveness. I also take carbatrol, celexa, 7.5mg deplin and rotate sleep meds as necessary lunesta, restoril or ambien.>
Can't remember if I've told u, but on Xanax, Provigil, levothyroxine, was on folic acid, B12 shots (Meant to call doc office earlier and ask about sublingual, but forgot.) for psychiatric tx. For back pain, I have Percocet, Voltaren, and Flexeril. For HRT, w/ oral forms all ineffective, wear estrogen patches. I take Soma for sleep.
It has always worked very well, but, last two nights, first two after taking Deplin, did wake middle of night (unusual) and then too very early next morning (unusual).
Hard to identify what's happening w/ a med when overwhelmed.
I wonder though, w/ as depressed as I am, if I'd even have logged on, to respond here (taken some responsibility), if I'd not just taken the Deplin.(?) Surprised I got out of bed. Plus, experiencing no c-spine pain.
And, I'm actually thinking of what would be good to my stomach. I'd not been hungry at all since this recent onslaught of depressing situations.
sincerely, 5f
ps: Thankful able to share what's going on w/ these meds here and to have this support sparkle, and all.
Live alone and, IRL, not much support. So, big thanks.
Hope everyone here will keep all updated w/ Deplin experiences, and, I apologize if I caused any scare w/ my post early this day re: physical side effects.
Posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:46:38
In reply to Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin?, posted by Fivefires on November 16, 2007, at 11:07:53
5f,
Sorry for your flu-like symptoms.
Also, sorry for your disk problems. Do you have pain radiating down your arms? Twenty years ago, I blew out L-5,S-1. That was the worst physical pain that I have ever experinced. Pain down my legs.
How bad is the disk pain for you? Do you have a good orthopedic surgeon? In addition to the orthopedic surgeon, do you also see a chiropractor?
I see nothing in the Deplin prescribing information documents that mention your flu-like symptoms. The one thing I do see is that Deplin interacts with NSAIDs. Check it out:
http://www.drugs.com/cdi/deplin.html
http://www.deplin.com/media/Deplin_PackageInsert.pdf
I'd recommend that you take your Deplin in the mornings when you get up, not in the late evening.
Sublingual B-12 is an over-the-counter product not rx. The hard part is finding a vitamin store that carries the methylcobalamin type of B12. The most common from of B12 is cyanocobalamin. Call around to find a vitamin store in the area you live and see if you can find it.
The easiest way for me to find what I want is to order it online. In particular, I use this on-line store:
Then enter methylcobalamin into the search box. Do a second search for methyl-B12. I showed you the sublingual methylcobalamin that I like the best, but you can pick out one that you like.
Just to reiterate what I posted before, here are the sublingual methylcobalamin that I like best:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=129&at=0
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=117&at=0
I care what happens to you, 5f, and I wish you the very best.
-- Ron
Currently in full remission.
dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
15 mg/day Deplin
4 pumps of Androgel testosterone on a prn basis during ultra rapid cycling depressive phases.
Posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:51:11
In reply to Re: Results w Deplin/Sparkle, others, posted by Fivefires on November 16, 2007, at 21:31:13
5f,
When you feel well enough to read, scan through this document on Deplin:
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/article_pf.aspx?articleid=1267
--Ron
Posted by sparkle on November 17, 2007, at 10:37:15
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin? » Fivefires, posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:46:38
ron thanks for the info about the interaction with nsaids. I had not read that and i have taken nsaids for various things. sparkle
Posted by Fivefires on November 17, 2007, at 15:49:04
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin? » Fivefires, posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:46:38
I can state with pretty much complete certainty Deplin was NOT the cause of the 'flu-like thing' I coincidentally got when began it, as I went ahead and took Deplin yesterday and then again this a.m. and the physical ailment is abating.
Things went too far for me here though. I unsuccessfully tried to reach pdoc and others re: depression weeks ago.
I just posted on social, Major depression. Feel like need hospitalization, but won't lie to get it. Think you know what I mean. It is probably situational in causation, but nonetheless very strong.
When get out of house .. will look for the B-12 as specified and will take a look at d.c. or alter Voltaren, yet I've tried a couple times and gotten damn break-through pain.
Since I didn't have a documented 'accident', I'm not a candidate for surgery, not yet anyway, and have been passed on and on by pain docs. So, my PCP helps me w/ this. There are very few pain docs here. It's never been suggested I see an ortho. I've been told to stay away from chiros. I've only been referred to neurologists, neurosurgeon or pain specialists.
I'm so happy you're in remission.
Tks for staying here and helping out when you could instead be out enjoying life; this is cool of you to do.
I'll try to remember to do the same if ever I'm able.
thanks, 5f
Posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
In reply to Deplin, posted by Fivefires on November 17, 2007, at 15:49:04
Here's a description of it:
Source Naturals Mega Folinic is a highly bioavailable source of folic acid that helps the body build healthy red blood cells. It supports healthy brain and neurological development along with healthy cell division. Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*
Here's the link at iherb.com:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735&at=0
Note the very low price! (Even if you had to take a lot of it to get same result as Deplin, you'd still be way ahed of the game financially.)
Posted by Iansf on November 18, 2007, at 18:59:55
In reply to Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
Megafolinic is not in fact substantially cheaper than Deplin because Megafolinic tablets are only 800 mcg, while Deplin tablets are 7.5 mg. It would take nine tablets of Megafolinic to equal slightly less than one tab of Deplin.
> Here's a description of it:
>
> Source Naturals Mega Folinic is a highly bioavailable source of folic acid that helps the body build healthy red blood cells. It supports healthy brain and neurological development along with healthy cell division. Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*
>
> Here's the link at iherb.com:
>
> http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735&at=0
>
> Note the very low price! (Even if you had to take a lot of it to get same result as Deplin, you'd still be way ahed of the game financially.)
>
Posted by clipper40 on November 18, 2007, at 22:06:20
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 18, 2007, at 18:59:55
True, the difference in price is not nearly as large as it appears at first glance.
However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
Posted by Iansf on November 21, 2007, at 13:13:24
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 18, 2007, at 22:06:20
> However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
>
>
>
Except I found one source that has Deplin for $45 for 30 tablets and $107 for 90 (equivalent to about $36 for 30). So it can still end up being cheaper.
Posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » clipper40, posted by Iansf on November 21, 2007, at 13:13:24
> > However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
> >
> >
> >
> Except I found one source that has Deplin for $45 for 30 tablets and $107 for 90 (equivalent to about $36 for 30). So it can still end up being cheaper.
How is $107 for 90 doses cheaper than $57.60 for 90 equivalent doses?The only way I can see the Deplin being a better deal is if the Megafolinic doesn't work as well - which is entirely possible, if not probable.
Posted by KayeBaby on November 22, 2007, at 0:52:33
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
No. It is the same. The drug co., Pan American, owns the raw material and for a time sold it to supplement companys. It stopped providing l-methylfolate when it was ready to market Deplin.
This is the info I have read. My Dr. told me the same thing.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 1:21:24
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin?, posted by sparkle on November 17, 2007, at 10:37:15
This study shows why folate supplementation does not help all depressed patients. This has direct application to Deplin efficacy. But more than that, it gives a good rationale for why folate tx does work well in patients with low folate as measured by homocysteine levels.
http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/69/2/228?ijkey=894fd0cb1ea17d8ec0e2ef52e5b7f0ab7739e709
- Ron
Posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
> How is $107 for 90 doses cheaper than $57.60 for 90 equivalent doses?
>This is why you should never hire me to do your income tax forms - unless, of course, you WANT to pay the IRS more than you owe.
Posted by KayeBaby on November 22, 2007, at 11:59:28
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
I figured out what happened. I sent the wrong link or they switched products. The product I was taking is Metafolin by Source Naturals.
Oh-Merck is the patent holder not Pan Am. I think I was up too late when I posted this.
Sorry for any confusion.
Kaye
Posted by clipper40 on November 22, 2007, at 14:05:44
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
In reply to Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
Posted by sparkle on November 22, 2007, at 14:34:08
In reply to Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ian » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:48:48
In reply to Re: Please see my post below regarding Metafolin, posted by sparkle on November 22, 2007, at 14:34:08
> i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
No, I doubt that it is cheaper; just available. I did not do the math.
--Ron
Posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:09:47
In reply to Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ian » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20071115/msgs/796578.html
Hi Ron,I understand that MegaFolinic (folinic acid)is not the same as L-methylfolate but according to the blurb on it at iHerb.com, it converts more easily to L-methylfolate than regular folic acid:
"Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*"http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735
So I was wondering if it might still work as well, or nearly as well, as L-methylfolate. Probably not but maybe it's worth a try?C40
Posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:23:19
In reply to Cost of Deplin vs HSFolate » sparkle, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:48:48
> > i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
>
> No, I doubt that it is cheaper; just available. I did not do the math.
>
> --Ron
You're right. I just did the math and the HSFolate is almost 4 times as expensive as Deplin for equivalent dosage (not taking into account that HSFolate also contains coenzyme B12 and regular B6). Yikes! That's really expensive.
Posted by Ron Hill on November 23, 2007, at 19:22:47
In reply to Re: Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ron Hill, posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:09:47
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20071115/msgs/796578.html
>
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> I understand that MegaFolinic (folinic acid)is not the same as L-methylfolate but according to the blurb on it at iHerb.com, it converts more easily to L-methylfolate than regular folic acid:True. There are four steps that folic acid must go through before it becomes L-methylfolate. The first step is the one that some people (30% to 50% of the general population, depending on who you read) have at least some amount of difficulty in transforming folic acid to dihydrofolate via the dihydrofolate reductase.
This will all make more sense if we look at pictures. Therefore, pull up the following page on the Deplin web site:
http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,VsFolicAcid
Notice on the flowchart that there are four steps for folic acid and it is the first step that is difficult for some people to make. And, of course, no steps are needed for L-methylfolate (Deplin).
Let's look at another picture:
http://www.metafolin.com/pdfs/Scientific_Review_13.12.pdf (the pdf pulls up slowly)
Look on page 5. This bottom drawing shows the steps that folic acid has to go through to become L-methylfolate.
As an aside, read the text on page 5. This is part of the reason why all patients taking folates should also take methylcobalamin (methyl-B12). Further, it is also important to take P-5-P (coenzymatic form of B-6). VERY important to take both. If not, then take Metanx, http://www.metanx.com/ . Scroll to the bottom of the page and notice that Metanx has all three in it already (L-methylfolate, P-5-P, and methyl-B12).
> "Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*"
>
> http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735
>
>
> So I was wondering if it might still work as well, or nearly as well, as L-methylfolate. Probably not but maybe it's worth a try?I don’t know the answer to your question. In doing some reading, to try to answer your question, my hunch is that it would work nearly as well. But, don’t quote me on that. Folinic acid is a 5-formyl derivative of tetrahydrofolate and it is readily converted to other reduced folic acid derivatives (e.g. tetrahydrofolate). I’m not sure where on the Deplin website flowchart 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate would be located. Is it to the right or left of tetrahydrofolate, or somewhere else? I dunno.
As a side note, folinic acid is used as an adjuvant in cancer chemotherapy. For this purpose, folinic acid is known as leucovorin.
Not much help to you on this one Clipper.
Why not just get a script from your pdoc for Deplin, Metanx, or CerefolinNAC, and let your insurance company pay for it?
> C40
Posted by clipper40 on November 24, 2007, at 4:37:12
In reply to Folinic Acid vs L-methylfolate » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 23, 2007, at 19:22:47
>>Why not just get a script from your pdoc for >Deplin, Metanx, or CerefolinNAC, and let your >insurance company pay for it?
Thanks for your excellent, in-depth response! I think the script is the best way to go too. (I'm just not sure how much longer I'll be able to afford health insurance.)Take care,
Clipper
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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