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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Wanda C on January 17, 2005, at 19:38:05
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by bossfan on January 15, 2005, at 21:35:24
There are a lot of like you out there and growing. I am still being weaned off of 300mg, and we taper another 75mg every 10 to 14 days or so. So I am always an emotional wreck. I am so sorry you are also going through this, I wish I knew if people where going through it and live near me, because I also feel my fiance doesn't understand. Right now I am at the point of wanting to run, if it weren't for my kids I would have by now. Keep your chin up!
Posted by dancingstar on January 17, 2005, at 19:58:42
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » bossfan, posted by Wanda C on January 17, 2005, at 19:38:05
Hi Wanda,
Maybe you can post the general area that you're in. I'll bet that there's someone near you going through the same thing.
Bebe
Posted by Petra on January 17, 2005, at 22:02:40
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » Wanda C, posted by dancingstar on January 17, 2005, at 19:58:42
Hello there fellow AD users. I have quit Effexor XR twice in the past 2 years. I feel your pain. When I first tried to quit, I went down from 225 mg to 150 mg and the withdrawal was severe. I had a fever, dizziness, night sweats, headache, nausea, nightmares, ect. Weaning down from 225 to 150 to 75 to 37.5 was not an option for me. The only way I was able to wean off was to open up the capsules and divide the little beads into smaller doses. I used a razor blade to divide the doses into little piles on a piece of computer paper. If you divide a 75 mg dose into four, you get four 18.75 mg doses. Divide it into six and you get 12.5 mg doses. So basically it's just a matter of deciding what dose you want to take each phase of your weaning off. I would go four days on each dose before going down. It took me 5 weeks but it was painless. A much better way to wean off. Now I know that when you break open the capsule, you are destroying the extended release capacity of the pill. It does not matter. It worked for me. Here are the exact doses I took going down every four days(some people may need 7 days of each dose). 225, 187.5, 150, 112.5, 75, 56.25, 37.5, 18.75, 12.5, 7.5. So once the dose is divided you just lick the tip of your finger and press down on the beads and they will stick to your finger. Just stick the dose on your tongue and drink plenty of water to wash all the beads down. I hope those of you that are suffering will try this method. It works. God Bless, Petra
Posted by Broken on January 18, 2005, at 8:36:05
In reply to Effexor Class Action Suit Filed in Oklahoma, posted by msbarker2u on January 13, 2005, at 21:49:22
> Okay guys, go to this web site. www.pcalawfirm.com/new_page_1.htm You can join the class action suit.
Not to discount this suit or the firm, but a couple of things stand out. Spelling errors on the page explaining the supposed suit, and I can't find any information on the firm.
Maybe it's totally on the up and up, just seems odd.
Posted by Jiggitykid on January 20, 2005, at 7:45:30
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by bossfan on January 15, 2005, at 21:35:24
First of all, DRAG your husband to the computer and MAKE HIM READ these posts. You are not crazy. You are in severe withdrawal, and will be for a while. Even tapering does not keep you from experiencing withdrawal, no matter what the liars at Wyeth tell you. There are tips to help you feel better. I suggest you look through the archives to see what these are. Please, be very careful driving and understand that what you are experiencing is normal under the circumstances.
Hang in there!
> I am so relieved to have found this site and this particular thread!
>
> I thought I was going nuts. My psychiatrist switched my meds - 150mg Effexor XL every day to Prozac. I "tapered" from 150 to 75mg for 2 days to one day w/ nothing and then start 20mg Prozac.
>
> Everything was going fine until last night. I'm on day #2 of 20mg Prozac. The DIZZINESS, sleeping like a fiend, nightmares, chills and numb lips are horrible.
>
> After reading the other posts on this thread, I went right to the medicine cabinet and took 75mg of Effexor and will continue to until I can call my doc on Tuesday. I think I need a more gradual taper.
>
> I have a husband and kids. I'm supposed to drive. How can I do this when I constantly dizzy? I have slept most of the day and the dreams are freaky, vivid. My husband isn't the most supportive. He rolls his eyes when I told him I couldn't go to a party with his work colleagues tonight. He went without me and I came online to see if anyone else had wierd withdrawal.
>
> Thanks to all of you and your posts. It has really helped me understand what I am going thru!
Posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 7:55:45
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by dancingstar on January 14, 2005, at 18:14:19
Hi, I've been prescribed effexor for the past 8 mos. and am going cold turkey now, on day 3. I was taking 150mg.SR down from 300mg.SR (way too much for me!) actually 150mg is too much.
At the time I started I was suffering from severe suicidal depression and effexor seemed to at least take care of that. I do not respond to most ssri so I was very excited to be trying an snri. Well, I'm not so excited anymore!
My side effects included constipation, tiredness, loss of libido (basically my favorite organ just shrunk up and was useless except for elimination), numbness, clouded memory, profuse sweating, and a general feeling that things were not right but I didn't care. All these side effects and I was still basically depressed, just not suicidal.
My prescriber just would tell me to keep taking it! It's time to put my foot down again (I have to do that alot with the healthcare personel I deal with). No, I'm not taking that garbage anymore. No, I'm not calling and asking your 'permission' to go off this med. No, I can't put up with the side effects. And yes, you will do your job and work with me to find a med or combo of meds that will finally work (lazy *ss!)
I have just registered here so nobody on this board knows me yet... I can't get into my lengthy mental health history right now, but I have had many, many years of therapists and docs throwing medicines at me and telling me that's what I have to settle for because they know what's best, NOT.
Well, to the point. My extremities are numb, I am getting those little shocks, nightmares, dreams that are just too weird, little crying jags, my eyes just want to go so that I can't focus, and my head just feels too heavy (or is it light) that I'm quite dizzy, kind of hot but no temperature. I have went through more painful withdrawls, but not weird like this... and I knew before i started taking the drug that withdrawl was expected. my pdoc said nothing about this drug and still will not admit that it is a problem. long term???
I have some seroquel I've been taking, it helps a bit. I will try benadryl. Benzos like ativan I feel are not so good for me because they tend to aggrevate my depression (another addiction?) in the long run. Hopefully, the short time I've been taking the effexor will be in my favor, I see that alot of people on this thread have been taking it for many years.
Cold turkey it is! Why put it off? The crying and anger are better than that dull, empty, I don't care feeling I had while on the drug. And my, um, libido seems to be working again already, I couldn't wait to try!
I am thankful to have this outlet right now, usually I do not get involved online. I do lots of reading and lurking on websites that interest me but do not register or post on threads. I will try to document my progress here so I might help someone as you have helped me. It is very painful to feel that you are the only one feeling you have lost control. Any feedback to me will be appreciated. I will have to figure out how to make the most of this online experience, where and how to post... any help on how to get around on the site will also be greatly recieved.
thanks, medhed.
Posted by Petra on January 21, 2005, at 12:35:16
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 7:55:45
medhed, I'm glad your getting off effexor as it is a horrific drug. I would not advise cold turkey, however. I tried that too. Why put yourself through that? Please wean down. My method causes no suffering whatsoever, at least for me it didn't. But there are other techniques on this board as well, like taking Prozac and Benydryl. At least do something to ease your suffering. Peace, Petra
Posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 16:54:41
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by Petra on January 21, 2005, at 12:35:16
Thankyou Petra.
Yes, i decided a few hours ago to take a dose of effexor. I just could not take it anymore. My feet felt like they were swelling up and... I guess you probally know what i was going through. I will research this more before I try again and get the pdoc involved. So I guess I'll keep taking this garbage for now (how nice for Wyeth, I guess they'll be happy about that). Besides the withdrawl, it was kind of nice to feel somewhat like myself again. I'm not a couch potato but this stuff just makes me apathetic, and the sexual side effect is unacceptable. Martin.
Posted by dancingstar on January 21, 2005, at 17:24:29
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 7:55:45
Hi medhed,
I found this board on a google search after I had stopped taking EffexorXR innocently in September. Before you completely commit to cold turkey, why not read all of my posts and allow yourself some options. It is a nasty withdrawal.
In the end it seems to me that there are all sorts of different reactions, depending on our own chemcial makeups. Some people don't have that bad a time of it and recover from cold turkey in about a week. Others can't wean off and have to end up stopping cold turkey completely once and for all.
Others, like Petra, do it a little at a time; and it sounds like that could be the way to go...all I know is that for me, cold turkey was painful...very, and while I am now just about whole again, it was one long and rocky road.
If you are able to take Benadryl, it helped me a lot. I've heard mixed reivews on the Prozac. Seems to help some more than others. I passed on it myself...but I was not taking Effexor for depression in the first place. If I were, I think I might consider this as an option cause you will most likely want either Prozac or herbal formulations just to make it through...even Superman would need it, I think. I used herbal stuff, and it does help. So do lots of good vitamins, especially the B's.
Blessings,
Bebe
Posted by Wanda C on January 21, 2005, at 18:51:17
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 7:55:45
This all sounds so familiar. Reading your story sounds like reading mine. There are a few of us who do keep in contact with each other, because you will come to find out we all need eachothers support to get through this. My dose was 275mg for a couple years and I felt this medicine was doing more harm then good, so my pdoc took me right off effexor and told me to take 20mg of prozac. The withdrawals kicked in by the end of the evening and by the next day I was ready to just die. I went through everything you explained,and what's weird about that is, when I try to describe it to someone like my doc who has never experienced it before, they look at me like I am crazy. My pdoc actually said he has never seen that kind of withdrawal happen to somebody off of a anti-depressant. So he immediately told me to stop taking the prozac and start taking my effexor. But now he moved me up to 300mg. So in the mean time while my body was trying to recover from the shock, he gave me 10 1mg adavan to help with the sleeplessness and everything else. Adavan is addicting, so I only get five for the month when I go see my pdoc.
I guess what I am trying to say is, we are here for you.
Good Luck!
Wanda C
Posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 20:03:21
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » medhed, posted by Wanda C on January 21, 2005, at 18:51:17
Thank you,
I'm interested in your herbal approach. If you can direct me to more info or explain your own experience I would be grateful. I am now taking this med again and I feel 'OK'. I will be planning for my next attempt and talking to the doc. I will need to try new meds after I get off effexor to prevent relapse. I also take welbutrin 300mg.XR for about 6 years now.
peace.
Posted by David55 on January 23, 2005, at 22:28:23
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by medhed on January 21, 2005, at 20:03:21
Martin - your withdrawal symptoms are very similar to the ones I experienced. I was especially interested to hear of your loss of libido and its return after stopping Effexor. I completely lost my libido and anything resembling a normal orgasm several years ago while on Effexor. I even weaned myself from Effexor a year or two ago to see if it would return. When it didn't, I blamed the lack of libido on a lower back problem I also have (L5-S1 spondylolisthesis) and went back on Effexor. This time I went cold-turkey off Effexor because I was fed up with feeling tired all the time and being in a bit of a fog mentally. I've been off Effexor for 31 days now and am generally delighted with the turn-around in my life. The icing on the cake is that my libido seems to be making a gradual comeback. I'm very hopeful at this point. I'm guessing that I didn't give my body enough time the first time I stopped taking Effexor. The side-effects of this drug are really insidious. I'm just glad I'm off.
Don't worry about not being able to kick it cold-turkey. There's no shame in that. It's better to stay safe and sane and get off Effexor more slowly than to hurt yourself or others in the process.
The one lingering withdrawal effect I have is that I'm still awfully irritable and impatient. Otherwise, life is good.
Best wishes to you and everyone else trying to deal with their Effexor "addiction".
Posted by medhed on January 24, 2005, at 0:36:07
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » medhed, posted by David55 on January 23, 2005, at 22:28:23
i was in working order again in 2 days, that may be because i was only taking med for 8mos.
now day 2 back on and the same disagreeable side effects again. i will be patient with myself and the pdoc gettig off this med. right now i just can't post much- effexor has got me again and i feel like i can't acomplish much...sooo apathetic.
Posted by Jiggitykid on January 24, 2005, at 7:36:09
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » medhed, posted by David55 on January 23, 2005, at 22:28:23
Yes, "stuff," does return to normal :-). My husband is very happy that I quit taking effexor. I stopped cold-turkey about a year ago because I knew that weaning would not work for me. I don't have the patience and I also would have been more likely to, "just take a little more," so that I would feel better. The nightmare of withdrawal was so bad, I couldn't imagine extending it. A year ago, there weren't as many experiences shared here as there have been now, so the tips were not as numerous. I'm so grateful for this board so that others who are experiencing this hell have somewhere to go to get support and to find out how to deal with it from folks who have, truly, been there, done that.
The irritability, unless it is a legit part of your personality ;-), will go away. It took several months for my emotions to settle down. The effexor has an insidious grasp on your body and brain, and it takes a long while for your system to get back to normal. I'm frankly glad I didn't know how long the recovery would take; that forced me to take it day-to-day and not put a time limit or time expectation on it. I suppose that's just the way I am. I suggest that, even though there are general time frames posted, everyone coming off of this stuff remembers that each person is an individual and recovery times are personal.
> Martin - your withdrawal symptoms are very similar to the ones I experienced. I was especially interested to hear of your loss of libido and its return after stopping Effexor. I completely lost my libido and anything resembling a normal orgasm several years ago while on Effexor. I even weaned myself from Effexor a year or two ago to see if it would return. When it didn't, I blamed the lack of libido on a lower back problem I also have (L5-S1 spondylolisthesis) and went back on Effexor. This time I went cold-turkey off Effexor because I was fed up with feeling tired all the time and being in a bit of a fog mentally. I've been off Effexor for 31 days now and am generally delighted with the turn-around in my life. The icing on the cake is that my libido seems to be making a gradual comeback. I'm very hopeful at this point. I'm guessing that I didn't give my body enough time the first time I stopped taking Effexor. The side-effects of this drug are really insidious. I'm just glad I'm off.
>
> Don't worry about not being able to kick it cold-turkey. There's no shame in that. It's better to stay safe and sane and get off Effexor more slowly than to hurt yourself or others in the process.
>
> The one lingering withdrawal effect I have is that I'm still awfully irritable and impatient. Otherwise, life is good.
>
> Best wishes to you and everyone else trying to deal with their Effexor "addiction".
Posted by Jiggitykid on January 24, 2005, at 7:39:08
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » David55, posted by medhed on January 24, 2005, at 0:36:07
I know you aren't feeling well (I'm sorry!), and I hate to bother you, but I'm a little confused by the last post. Are you saying that you quit effexor and started back? If you were in "working order," why did you start back on? Just wondering if I'm reading your post correctly. Thanks!
> i was in working order again in 2 days, that may be because i was only taking med for 8mos.
> now day 2 back on and the same disagreeable side effects again. i will be patient with myself and the pdoc gettig off this med. right now i just can't post much- effexor has got me again and i feel like i can't acomplish much...sooo apathetic.
Posted by dancingstar on January 24, 2005, at 11:03:47
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » David55, posted by Jiggitykid on January 24, 2005, at 7:36:09
Hi Guys,
This is a truly annoying interruption, but please check out my link about rethinking Benadryl. I'm a little concerned that if you are taking both Prozac and Benadryl or Claritin or any antihistamine to recover from the symptoms of Effexor that you should print out the link I posted where the doctors are chatting about the possible cardiac damage...and bring it to your docs to find out if you should change things up.
I haven't got a clue as to how important or unimportant it is. It concerned me enough that I stopped what I was doing and posted this for you. Please read it and decide for yourselves.
I know, I know, who made me the safety police? Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your regularly-scheduled recovery fun....
Thanks!
Bebe
Posted by medhed on January 24, 2005, at 12:03:31
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you » medhed, posted by Jiggitykid on January 24, 2005, at 7:39:08
i quit for four days and my sexual functioning was back and i kind of felt myself for about two days, then withdrawl kicked in and i couldn't take it. people on this board recommended that i not go cold turkey. i am trying to contact my pdoc now to try the titration, benadryl, prozac detox that i've heard about on this board. i've only been taking effexor for 8 mos., so i hope my withdrawl will not be so bad. since i started taking med again withdrawl has stopped but nagging side effects are back. also the numbness from the withdrawl and pins and needle zaps are still with me- i'm not sure if it's because i'm more aware of it. i feel kind of poisoned, but at least i know i'm not dying. for some reason i didn't connect feeling sick with the drug until i tryed to stop. i've been suffering from this latest bout of depression for almost 2 yrs., when i started effexor i was suicidal, the drug helped with that. i just thought my lack of exercise, bad eating/sleeping habits and everything else that goes along with a severe depression was making me sick. at least i don't want to kill myself. i'm still not sure what med or combo i will be trying next... and i've tryed alot. I have to stay out of the pits of hell but my butt is just about burning. thank you for your interest. martin.
Posted by Cyndy on January 26, 2005, at 12:57:37
In reply to Important Program Interruption, posted by dancingstar on January 24, 2005, at 11:03:47
Hi-
I have been trying to wean off 150mg Effexor for the past week. I have had terrible dizzyness, a funny "buzzing" in my head and nausea, but the crazy dreams have stopped! Yeah! I was only on this medication for hot flashes, so now I am paying a huge price that is much much WORSE than a simple hot flash! Wish my doc had explained the Effexor withdrawal symptoms. I have broken the 150mg caps apart and put half the little white balls into clear gel caps you can purchase at the health food store. So, now I am on 75mg every two days. Boy, am I glad I get to take one tomorrow! You can even break them down further, and I probably will do 37.5mg every two days before I stop completely. With regard to sexual function, I have noticed a change for the better already. I am never, never going on anything like this again - if the hot flashes come back, I will get bio-identical hormones. For an antidepressant - I love Prozac! It was great! The only bad effect from coming off it - my energy went way down. I love it, but I want to get all anti-depressants.
Best of luck to all of you - and I agree, we need to keep a diary of all this. I am never going to recommend this drug to ANYONE! I am a nurse attorney and I bet there will be lawsuits over this one before long!!!!!
Posted by dancingstar on January 26, 2005, at 15:20:52
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by medhed on January 24, 2005, at 12:03:31
I only wish I had thought of this when I was trying to stop taking the crap, but then I had no idea there was any withdrawal; so I just stopped taking it one day:
Instead of taking the EffexorXR, why don't you ask your doctor to switch you to Effexor tablets so you can break them into smaller portions? They aren't time released, but that way you can break them into tiny pieces. It might make it easier to cut back and not have to contend with the stupid little balls in the pills if you want to cut back slowly, and you can always take a pill if you need one.
Figured that one out this morning. Duh....
Posted by Jiggitykid on January 26, 2005, at 16:10:47
In reply to Re: Important Program Interruption, posted by Cyndy on January 26, 2005, at 12:57:37
The doctors either don't know or don't believe the symptoms. I've found black cohosh makes a huge difference for me. It is found in several supplements. I'm taking one by Arbonne. I've heard, but not tried, that Estroven is good.
As for the lawsuit, there is an attempt being made, but so far, not a lot of luck in getting anyone to take it.
> Hi-
> I have been trying to wean off 150mg Effexor for the past week. I have had terrible dizzyness, a funny "buzzing" in my head and nausea, but the crazy dreams have stopped! Yeah! I was only on this medication for hot flashes, so now I am paying a huge price that is much much WORSE than a simple hot flash! Wish my doc had explained the Effexor withdrawal symptoms. I have broken the 150mg caps apart and put half the little white balls into clear gel caps you can purchase at the health food store. So, now I am on 75mg every two days. Boy, am I glad I get to take one tomorrow! You can even break them down further, and I probably will do 37.5mg every two days before I stop completely. With regard to sexual function, I have noticed a change for the better already. I am never, never going on anything like this again - if the hot flashes come back, I will get bio-identical hormones. For an antidepressant - I love Prozac! It was great! The only bad effect from coming off it - my energy went way down. I love it, but I want to get all anti-depressants.
> Best of luck to all of you - and I agree, we need to keep a diary of all this. I am never going to recommend this drug to ANYONE! I am a nurse attorney and I bet there will be lawsuits over this one before long!!!!!
Posted by not2late4u on January 27, 2005, at 1:12:12
In reply to Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Becky on October 2, 1999, at 22:03:30
in case anyone is interested, I am keeping my withdraw journal on a thread "renee tapering off effexor" So far there's about 31 days worth. Renee
Posted by TJAC on January 27, 2005, at 7:38:34
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by not2late4u on January 27, 2005, at 1:12:12
Posted by Cyndy on January 27, 2005, at 13:16:36
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by Petra on January 17, 2005, at 22:02:40
Hi again-Petra's idea about gentle weaning taking down the dose gradually is great. If you will go buy some gelatin caps at your health food store, you can place the tiny white balls in them and the long acting effect should not be lost.
This has got to be the only way to wean off without the terrible side effects. I have been dizzy all day and I took 75 mg this morning.
Thanks for sharing your success, Petra.
Cyndy
Hello there fellow AD users. I have quit Effexor XR twice in the past 2 years. I feel your pain. When I first tried to quit, I went down from 225 mg to 150 mg and the withdrawal was severe. I had a fever, dizziness, night sweats, headache, nausea, nightmares, ect. Weaning down from 225 to 150 to 75 to 37.5 was not an option for me. The only way I was able to wean off was to open up the capsules and divide the little beads into smaller doses. I used a razor blade to divide the doses into little piles on a piece of computer paper. If you divide a 75 mg dose into four, you get four 18.75 mg doses. Divide it into six and you get 12.5 mg doses. So basically it's just a matter of deciding what dose you want to take each phase of your weaning off. I would go four days on each dose before going down. It took me 5 weeks but it was painless. A much better way to wean off. Now I know that when you break open the capsule, you are destroying the extended release capacity of the pill. It does not matter. It worked for me. Here are the exact doses I took going down every four days(some people may need 7 days of each dose). 225, 187.5, 150, 112.5, 75, 56.25, 37.5, 18.75, 12.5, 7.5. So once the dose is divided you just lick the tip of your finger and press down on the beads and they will stick to your finger. Just stick the dose on your tongue and drink plenty of water to wash all the beads down. I hope those of you that are suffering will try this method. It works. God Bless, Petra
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 28, 2005, at 0:32:25
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by TJAC on January 27, 2005, at 7:38:34
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?effexor
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding petitions to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050123/msgs/448972.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dal on January 29, 2005, at 15:46:41
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by Cyndy on January 27, 2005, at 13:16:36
I am so glad I found this thread! I was told by my general Dr to get off of Effexor immediately, as he thought it might be affecting my ALT liver enzymes (anyone else have this problem), and I have to go in for surgery in a few weeks. I called my psychiatrist, told her of the issue - and she told me how HORRIBLE the side affects were going to be. LOVELY! Well, I went from 225mg - 150mg for 5 days, and was doing ok, so I simply quit. I'm doing ok - not SO horrible. But I do feel like my reality is a bit warped. And the dreams of the devil, alien invasions, and nuclear war are so much FUN!! :o) I was on effexor XR for almost exactly a year. I guess my question would be - how long should I expect the symptoms to go on? It's easier to get through, because I know the feelings I'm having aren't facts - but it is very bothersome. I'm tired of crying at work emails! :o) Sorry for the long winded post. I'm just grateful that I've been able to read all of your posts - it's helping a lot to know that I'm not unique in this. - Dal
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