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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 49. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
Posted by King Vultan on November 8, 2004, at 22:32:03
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
> I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
Parnate is also dopaminergic, and it's a much better antidepressant than Wellbutrin. Unfortunately, it's also an MAOI, with the consequent dietary and drug restrictions. Selegiline is another MAOI that is also dopaminergic, but unlike Parnate, it is not in the antidepressant class but is classified as an anti-Parkinson med. It does not have the dietary restrictions when used at lower dosages.Todd
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:52
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by King Vultan on November 8, 2004, at 22:32:03
The reason dopaminergics are not more prescribed is that this socity has plenty of uppers (coffee cigarettes etc) but not enough agents that can help people let go of their unattainable neurotic dreams.
SSRI's promote contentment. The average depressed person these days is somebody who needs a bit of a break from their problems. Dopaminergics give you energy and pleasure sure, but they just keep the nightmare of your life spinning.
Plus they generally do nothing for anxiety, insomnia, loss of apetite, obsessive moods etc.This is the way i see it.
There are two types of depressed people.
The serotonin deficiant,
and the norepineprine/dopamine deficiant.
The two don't unsertsand the other one bit!
(clearly, I don't undersant the dopamine deficant)
Linkadge
Posted by Bill LL on November 9, 2004, at 8:56:53
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
I take a caffeine pill each morning (200 mg of NoDoz). Caffeine is supposed to boost dopamine.
I also take Lexapro (for serotonin) and Strattera (for norepinephrine).
The serotonin/norepinephrine/dopamine model for depression is not well understood according to a lot of reading that I have done. There is so much profit in drugs that I think that drug companies really do work hard to keep improving them.
> I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
Posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 9:17:23
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:52
> The reason dopaminergics are not more prescribed is that this socity has plenty of uppers (coffee cigarettes etc) but not enough agents that can help people let go of their unattainable neurotic dreams.
>
> SSRI's promote contentment. The average depressed person these days is somebody who needs a bit of a break from their problems. Dopaminergics give you energy and pleasure sure, but they just keep the nightmare of your life spinning.
>
>
> Plus they generally do nothing for anxiety, insomnia, loss of apetite, obsessive moods etc.
>
> This is the way i see it.
>
> There are two types of depressed people.
>
> The serotonin deficiant,
>
> and the norepineprine/dopamine deficiant.
>
> The two don't unsertsand the other one bit!
> (clearly, I don't undersant the dopamine deficant)
>
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I love this stuff. Maybe one day we will be able to choose our personality OR someone else will choose it for us. While we're not talking on the neurochemical level. I thought I might jump in.Sex, drive, and ambition are very important to a lot of people. So are neurotic dreams, if you want to call them that. I don't think a depressed person has the ability to actualize these dreams let alone think them through.
SSRIs do increase dopamine in some parts of the brain, and that's part of what makes them therapeutic. Dopamine plays an important role in thought too - especially in the frontal lobes, moreso than serotonin.
The danger with the medications is the 'establishment' can decide who we want to be.
Most commonly prescribed ADs in the 90s were SSRIs BUT some OCD traits and discontent aren't necessarily a bad thing and it's arguable whether they need to be treated and, if so, what they need to be treated with.That's what leads to change though -dicontentment, overthinking in the frontal lobes... look there's something wrong here, something has to be done as opposed to shrugging it off and carrying on.
They don't like that.
here's something to mull about:
The state of contentment is after the orgasm. Dopamine levels drop and serotonin levels rise.I'm just glad there are normal people in the world who don't need to tinker with their brain chemistry and become one or the other and who manage to avoid getting labelled with an illness for being extreme. ( plenty of people you could peg with ODD or hypomania who aren't ill at all )
I think I've rambled on enough. I love worrying about the future when I don't know enough about this stuff....
I think if these medications have the ability to change the tone of personalities, even in anecdotal reports, that we owe it to ourselves to look into even the most innane implications.
Finally, we've got to decide who's got control, us or them.
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 11:50:22
In reply to Ramble On., posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 9:17:23
Well for me, the SSRI's gave me tremendous controll. In reality I was *not* going to become a concert pianist. Besides, even if I did, it would not be because I wanted to, but rather be because somebody else wanted me to. As well I didn't even take time to consider the tremendous stress it would entail.
When I started taking SSRI's, I became much more emotionally self sufficant (good/bad ??). Anyhow for the first time I said "screw what others want me to become, what do I want to do??" and I was satisfied with that. Actually, in terms of "free thinking" I think that SSRI's have done much more to promote "free thinking" than the dopaminergics ever could. Dopaminergics make doing repetitive, boring tasks seem interesting.
It is really difficult to sum up chemicals in terms of how they affect personality because they do different things in different parts of the brain. It is more about ballence. Yin/yang.
God, grant me a pill that will give me,
The strength to change the things you can,
the peace to accept the things you cannot change,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Best of Luck
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 12:20:34
In reply to Re: Ramble On., posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 11:50:22
>Dopaminergics make doing repetitive, boring tasks seem interesting
...like sex or fast cars.I don't think I'll ever get tired of girls and I personally don't find math too interesting ( that's less of a frontal lobe activity ) ;-)
Obsesive rumination, philosophy, sex, and aggresion ( not necessarily in a violent sense ) on the other hand, go together don't they?
Posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 9, 2004, at 21:05:01
In reply to Re: Ramble On. » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 12:20:34
I get in the weirdest conversations when I start talking about dopamine...who would've thought a neurotransmitter could be so controversial. ;-) I can't do too much caffeine, makes me edgy and I'm not looking for an upper, per se. Yeah, the election has totally bummed me out and at this point I would just like to be content with daily life, do some paintings, and tune out for a bit. I don't need to be "high" but I don't want to be numb. Interest in mundane, routine activities sounds pretty appealing. Is that weird?
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 7:41:15
In reply to strange tangent here, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 9, 2004, at 21:05:01
>Is that weird?
You tell me. Whatever turns you on. : )
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
In reply to Re: Ramble On. » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 9, 2004, at 12:20:34
It is really hard to say.
LSD is a purely serotonin affecting agent (although like you mentioned serotonin can influcence dopamine release too)
Anyhow, LSD is sometimes the most philosophicly provoking agent (in terms of drugs)
Ie amphetamine won't open your eyes, and change your thinking in the way that LSD will. Amphetamine will simply take "you" and amplify that. Ie the term psychostimulant.
Sex is extremely lower brainstem. Any baffoon/babboon can have sex, but not ever baffoon/babboon can challenge authority with
wisdom.Serotonin has a role in social dominance in animals and in humans. SSRI's effectivly treat extreme shyness in children and in adults. Plus the monkeys that tend to take leadership roles are the ones with the highest serotonin.
Did you know that if you block the 5-ht1a receptor (a serotonin receptor) you block about 50 percent of the reinforcing properties of cocaine. Contrary to popular believe, cocaine has more affinity for the serotonin transporter than it does for the dopamine transporter.
Weird eh?Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 12:05:44
In reply to Re: Ramble On., posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
When I'm talking sex. I also include the obssesive feeling you get when you fall in love and how every little thing reminds you of your obsession. I've read that romantic feelings comes from increased activity in the frontal lobes ( dopamine primarily ) and this has been seen in people when they viewed pictures of their partners.
On one site that talked about the death of 'unrequited love syndrome' while taking antidepressants, it mentioned that men often reported that the feeling they get when you see someone attractive is less while they could cognitively 'know' the woman was attractive.
That loss of feeling is what I'm talking about.
I've heard about serotonin's role in social dominance.
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 13:10:45
In reply to Re: Ramble On., posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 10:57:34
I'm not saying these medications shouldn't be used to treat depression. I'm saying they have side-effects. That very high serotonin levels have a down side. You'll be able to make it up to the top of the social ladder but what about love? According to some things I've come across you might be in trouble.
According to helen fisher: "Of course, serotonin-enhancing medications blunt emotions -- that's the point."
This is your brain in Love
http://www.sophists.org/article146.html
***************************
Love at RiskAt a different APA forum, "Sex, Sexuality, and Serotonin," Dr Fisher warned that antidepressants may jeopardize romantic love. As well as high dopamine and norepinephrine, she said, romantic love is characterized by low serotonin. Low serotonin would explain the obsessive thinking attached to romantic love. In her MRI study, her subjects reported that they thought about their loved one 95 percent of the day and couldn’t stop thinking about them. This kind of obsessive thinking is comparable to OCD, she said, also characterized by low serotonin.
Serotonin-enhancing antidepressants, she said, blunt the emotions, including the elation of romance, and suppress obsessive thinking, a critical component of romance. "When you inhibit this brain system," she warned, "you can inhibit your patient’s well-being and possibly their genetic future."
These antidepressants also inhibit orgasm, clitoral stimulation, penile erection ("the entertainment system, in my business"), and deposit of seminal fluid. From an anthropological perspective, a woman who can’t get an orgasm may fail to distinguish Mr Right from Mr Wrong. As one woman on an SSRI confided to her: "I thought I no longer loved my husband." In a study in press, women on SSRIs rated male faces as more unattractive, a process she calls "courtship blunting."
Seminal fluid contains dopamine and norepinephrine, oxytocin and vasopressin, testosterone and estrogen, and FSH and LH. Without an orgasm, said Dr Fisher, men lose the ability to send courtship signals. Said one man, who lost his motivation and self esteem as a result, "I just stopped dating."
Ironically, because antidepressants inhibit depression, patients may lose their ability to send an honest clear signal for social support and (for those with mild depression) lose the necessary insight to make hard decisions (the failure of denial factor).
Dr Fisher said she didn’t want psychiatrists to stop prescribing serotonin-enhancing antidepressants for their patients, but did stress the need to take the love-relationship picture into account.
Source: http://www.mcmanweb.com/love_lust.htm
***************************************
Has the Romance Gone? Was It the Drug?
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040504/ZNYT04/405040351/1002/BUSINESS*************************************
"..antidepressants that helped you get over your last romance might keep you from finding a new one..."
"When we fall in love, dopamine and norepinephrine levels rise, and serotonin levels fall. Taking SSRIs brings up the serotonin level and suppresses dopamine. That could inhibit romantic love.
Fisher says, "Long-term use could jeopardize people's ability to fall in love, to stay in love, or even to feel attachment for the partner they've got."..."
The complex chemistry of love
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/02/13/Floridian/The_complex_chemistry.shtml*********************************
Too High for Love?
( second article )
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/society_culture/sex_and_schopenhauer.htm****************************
So is all this bull or is there some truth to it? I believe there's truth to it and I think this topic is underappreciated and ignored.
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 14:43:33
In reply to love and SSRIs, posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 13:10:45
Perhaps I've never really experienced sex the way other have. (there are high keyed individuals vs. low)
But I really don't miss a thing.
Sex, and obsessions are so dirty and pointless.
When on SSRI's the whole consept of sex seems so stupid (to me at least). What a waste of time it is sitting all day long dreaming of another person. Having friends I understand, but what is actually being *accomplished* by having two people so enveloped in eachother ?? The holding of hands, the smooching, etc etc. I just want to gag at it all.
And I'm in my sexual prime !!!
I must have missed the recieving of a gene or something.
But I'm certainly not alone. There are people out there just like me (not on SSRI's) who really aren't all that interested in sex.
Think of it this way. You have really skinny people, and you have obese people. THe two have a different set point for food intake. Likewise two people could be completely different in their libito needs.
For me, I guess SSRI's were a smooth transition in that you can't miss what you never had !!
Linkadge
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:42:16
In reply to sex is way too overrated !!, posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 14:43:33
ha, just kidding. 'course we're always doing that aren't we. Romance and rumination are fast becoming a choice.( especially given the advent of these drugs )
Those that like their feelings of romantic love who're taking these meds for depression should know about the 'side-effects' so they can still have a choice.
Posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 15:50:51
In reply to Re: says you!! » linkadge, posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:42:16
Posted by lostforwards on November 10, 2004, at 15:51:51
In reply to you are very right. (nm), posted by linkadge on November 10, 2004, at 15:50:51
:)
Posted by jakeman on November 11, 2004, at 0:36:35
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
me and my brother both take wellbutrin. He has a full head of hair, my hair is thinning like crazy.
Posted by tsirch on November 11, 2004, at 14:41:53
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
I just started taking sinemet, 50/200mg. 50mg of carbidopa, and 200mg levodopa. Thease pills give the brain a blast of dopamine and you would think that it would put you in a better mood. Its an anti-parkinson's. Ive been taking one in the morning for two days now along with my neurontin. Nothing, no difference yet. Dopamine sucks.
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
In reply to why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Sleepless in the ATL on November 8, 2004, at 20:04:23
> I am trying to figure out why more antidepressants are not made to effect dopamine. Wellbutrin worked great for me but caused hair loss so I had to quit taking it. It's the only anti-depressant that I have found that works on dopamine. Also dopamine "enhancers" increase sex drive which I would think would be quite appealing for those of us tired of meds that kill it. Sometimes I wonder if the FDA doesn't really want us to feel that great, just complacent, good enough to get by and not complain. I have reason to believe from past chemicals I've ingested that my seratonin receptors may be a bit weak and I also have reason to believe that my dopamine receptors are very effective at relieving depression, increasing sex drive, and increasing interest in daily activities. Anyone got any suggestions?
I not know reason for USA but for Israel, many medications in development that work on dopamine. Recently, Israeli soldiers with PTSD are allowed to smoke cannabis. We like the good life in Israel, dopamine not a bad thing.Shalom
Posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
Posted by linkadge on November 13, 2004, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by Shalom34Israel on November 12, 2004, at 19:08:45
It really all depends on what your symptoms are.
One person's depression may be caused by an entirely different chemical imballence than
another's. Some people don't respond to SSRI's
and do to wellbutrin/stimulants.Use what works/ find a doctor to prescribe what will work for you.
Linkadge
Posted by Shalom34Israel on November 14, 2004, at 20:01:07
In reply to I want to move to Israel :), posted by PhoenixGirl on November 12, 2004, at 19:48:26
>
Why? you must be combat vet with combat PTSD to smoke it legally here. Objective is not to just turn soldiers into potheads, but to treat their anxiety.
Shalom
Posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
In reply to Re: why not dopamine for depression?, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:52
I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
In reply to dopamine -- tell me more please, posted by underthewave on November 16, 2004, at 9:35:49
> I believe that I have become treatment resistant. I was diagnosed with Major Depression and Panic Disorder in 1987. I started with TCAs and then in the 90s started SSRIs. I have also tried the serotonin/norepinephine combos (Effexor, Cymbalta)....It sounds like I might benefit from an increase in Dopamine. What psychiatric drugs increase dopamine and can they be used in combination with SSRIs? I've also heard it helps with libido (and mine is lacking). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wellbutrin is the most common dopaminergic antidepressant, and it is often combined with SSRIs. Provigil is a stimulant that seems to also increase dopamine, and this could also be used with an SSRI. It is only a Schedule IV stimulant and is considered less problematic than the amphetamines and Ritalin, but it can be expensive. You might also consider the MAOI Parnate, which basically has to be taken by itself; although, it does work on serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Nardil is another MAOI that is available, but it is not nearly as dopaminergic as Parnate, but it is somewhat more so than an SSRI.Todd
Posted by underthewave on November 17, 2004, at 7:59:37
In reply to Re: dopamine -- tell me more please » underthewave, posted by King Vultan on November 16, 2004, at 22:57:31
Thanks Todd. I did some research yesterday and did find that the WB was dopaminergic. PDOC and I talked last night and I don't want to be on an MAO. In the past we have discussed Provigil but for now we are going to try bumping up the Cymbalta and see what happens. God, I've been on so many meds. You'd think with all of the research that has been done there would be 1 pill that would work on all 3 neurotransmitters. Doc said most of the dopaminergics were used for Parkinsons and schizoprenia..thanks for the info.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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