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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 14:12:24
In reply to correlation btwn schizophrenia and bipolar, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 11:13:29
By the way...
That NIMH study for Mirapex (dopamine agonist) has been published. I just found it today on McMan's:
http://www.mcmanweb.com/news.htm
60% response rate versus 9% placebo.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 15:44:36
In reply to correlation btwn schizophrenia and bipolar, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 11:13:29
Hi Katy,
I'll gather together what I've found so far. There were a few stories just recently about finding a similar gene sequence for BP and Sch but I don't remember the exact sources. I'm signed up with alot of medical subscription services. One good one that usually has something is http://www.the-scientist.com/. You have to sign up once for free, but it's packed with more data than you'll ever use. BTW, I love the McManweb site.As far as schizophrenia, I've wondered the same thing. There's so much cross over with these disorders, you know? In the grip of my most severe bipolar symptoms it seems pretty classic schizoaffective to me, complete with voices and visions. What makes it not schizophrenia, I've been told, is it's transitory nature, coming only with the bipolar cycles. Schizoprenia is an all the time thing. But too much dopamine seems a contender in psychotic phenonmena. But then again, LSD and hallucinogens are a serotonin affect so who knows? It's worth pursuing.
> Hey Barb-cat--
>
> You mentioned something about the correlation between schizophrenia and bipolar. I'm really interested in this since the drug that fits me the best is intended for schizophrenia--AND, what do you know, my grandmother is schizophrenic (or schizophreniform, schizoaffective--not really sure). So in a way, it makes a lot of sense that the atypical AP's are for me.
>
> Like I said, I think I have a faulty dopamine receptor or two. I also wonder about dopamine agonists WITH antagonists. I've tried to do some research, and I don't get much--there seems to be conflicting info. But I know for a fact that there are people who take zyprexa and mirapex together, for example. So apparently it can be done and IS done for some reason. Also--Abilify is supposed to do the same thing with one pill. The NIMH is doing a study on Mirapex and bipolar depression right now. I think they are just starting to figure this stuff out. If you sniff out any good articles about dopamine agonism/antagonism, I'd love to read them.
>
> Anyway--enough rambling from me--
>
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 10:56:18
Hi Katy,
Have you ever been on Seroquel? I know you're interested in Abilify. Is that because you've been dealing with depression breakthroughs and don't feel Risperdal is addressing it adequately? Is it the dual dopamine action that interests you about it?I agree about the alcohol and REM. I'm not drinking much at all these days. Oh, a snootful every few nights but just a wee dram, nothing like I used to. I notice my sleep is much better on those nights I have nothing at all. Alcohol, such a seductive poison.
Ambien has been pretty good as far as REM sleep, at least it's touted that way. But yowza, the last two nights on Seroquel feel like I've been at the movies all night long. Orlando Bloom was in one of them. Sigh, didn't wanna wake up... I only took 6 mg last night and it was fine. Got up feeling groggy but made myself do some situps first thing and that took care of it. A good incentive to lose the belly pudge. I don't feel nearly as depressed as yesterday. Pretty good, in fact. - BCat
> Hi gals--
>
> From what i've heard, the sedative effects of Seroquel can fade over time. However, I will endorse Risperdal in that department again--it gets me to sleep, but I'm not knocked out. I sleep a little longer than usual, but I can wake up in the morning feeling pretty refreshed. Just another option to consider if the Seroquel doesn't work out. (i know--everyone is different).
>
> As far as REM sleep on atypical AP's go, I'm not sure about a correlation. What I do know is that when I was taking a benzo every night, I wasn't getting ANY REM sleep. if you don't get any REM, lots of icky stuff can happen--one of which is memory problems. I didn't dream for months. Then my memory started slipping really bad. I actually lost my car and then called the cops because I thought it had been stolen or towed, when I had parked it at a friend's house only hours earlier. It started to get scary, so I asked my doc if he thought it could be the benzo. He thought it might be a combination of the benzo and that my Depakote dose was a bit too high. Once I started to sleep without Temazepam, I slowly regained my memory back. Another thing that blocks REM sleep is ALCHOHOL. So if you are drinking, you probably won't get a quality night's sleep.
>
> Gotta go--take care gals--
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:09:29
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
How do you feel on that high a dose? Is this something a person slowly builds up to or would someone start out this high for antipsychotic benefits rather than using it as a BP mood stabiliser? I've only been on it 2 days but 6mg konked me out. I can't imagine 100mg. What is tolerance like?
> Hi girls,
>
> >From what I've heard, there is a limit on how high you go before the sedation is not a s/e. So if you are on very high doses, sedation isn't a problem. But on small doses, it's used for sleep.<
>
> My p-doc just told me that anything over 100mg is getting away from the sedation effects.
>
> Take care.
>
> Sandy
>
Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 17:11:28
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
Hey Barb--
No--I've never tried Seroquel. It was the other one they would have chosen if not Risperdal for me. But since Risperdal has helped me sleep, I don't think we'll be reaching for the Seroquel at all. Yup--dual dopamine action is what I'm after--if I can get the dopamine flowing both ways AND sleep AND not be anxious, then I'll do a happy dance around my front yard. I see my doctor on monday, so we'll see if he will even try me on the darned stuff. He may be pissed that i've even brought it up. But if I can trade feeling 85% better with 100% better, I'll take it. Plus--it's a good time for me to do a trial. I'm not teaching and I can take vacation days if needed. I'll let you know how it goes.
Katy
> Hi Katy,
> Have you ever been on Seroquel? I know you're interested in Abilify. Is that because you've been dealing with depression breakthroughs and don't feel Risperdal is addressing it adequately? Is it the dual dopamine action that interests you about it?
>
> I agree about the alcohol and REM. I'm not drinking much at all these days. Oh, a snootful every few nights but just a wee dram, nothing like I used to. I notice my sleep is much better on those nights I have nothing at all. Alcohol, such a seductive poison.
>
> Ambien has been pretty good as far as REM sleep, at least it's touted that way. But yowza, the last two nights on Seroquel feel like I've been at the movies all night long. Orlando Bloom was in one of them. Sigh, didn't wanna wake up... I only took 6 mg last night and it was fine. Got up feeling groggy but made myself do some situps first thing and that took care of it. A good incentive to lose the belly pudge. I don't feel nearly as depressed as yesterday. Pretty good, in fact. - BCat
>
>
> > Hi gals--
> >
> > From what i've heard, the sedative effects of Seroquel can fade over time. However, I will endorse Risperdal in that department again--it gets me to sleep, but I'm not knocked out. I sleep a little longer than usual, but I can wake up in the morning feeling pretty refreshed. Just another option to consider if the Seroquel doesn't work out. (i know--everyone is different).
> >
> > As far as REM sleep on atypical AP's go, I'm not sure about a correlation. What I do know is that when I was taking a benzo every night, I wasn't getting ANY REM sleep. if you don't get any REM, lots of icky stuff can happen--one of which is memory problems. I didn't dream for months. Then my memory started slipping really bad. I actually lost my car and then called the cops because I thought it had been stolen or towed, when I had parked it at a friend's house only hours earlier. It started to get scary, so I asked my doc if he thought it could be the benzo. He thought it might be a combination of the benzo and that my Depakote dose was a bit too high. Once I started to sleep without Temazepam, I slowly regained my memory back. Another thing that blocks REM sleep is ALCHOHOL. So if you are drinking, you probably won't get a quality night's sleep.
> >
> > Gotta go--take care gals--
> > Katy
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 18:27:06
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 17:11:28
OK, let me know how it goes. Sounds interesting. As far as your pdoc getting pissed at you - you want to feel the best you can and your doctor is probably getting paid quite handsomely to help you get there, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Posted by katia on July 9, 2004, at 18:32:57
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
Hi Barb,
I was at 6mg (1/4 of 25mg) for a long time. and that was enough. But that was also with Depakote, then Lithium. After that, when I went off of everything except Seroquel, i upped to 25-75mg per night to sleep.
So in the case of tolerance development or not, I'm not sure because a lot of it depends on the cycling of moods and with what med combo I'm taking. Right now, I shouldn't need the 20mg i take b/c the Paxil and Trileptal are sedating, but I do take that much. So maybe there is a slight tolerance build up. If I take the 1/4 tab, like before, it doesn't really work. I am quite awake. I have a horrible pill cutter, so it never perfectly cuts the pill, so I normally end up with approx. 20mg of a 25mg.I don't see any reason why I should quit taking it. I love my sleep too much! Hope it works out for you.
and good to hear you're not imbibing too much in the swamp water. I have been, but steadily (1-3 gl.), nothing too much at one time, but pretty consisently with maybe 2 nights off a week! But I can feel the build up of it with slight fatique, not quite as clear, and no inspiration, and slightly down.Sit ups at dawn? yikes....! I maybe need to try that. I have to say I always have very intense vivid dreams, but I had that pre-meds anyway.
katia
Posted by SandyWeb on July 10, 2004, at 9:37:52
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » SandyWeb, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:09:29
Hi BarbaraCat,
I'm actually not on 100mg. I tried it, and it really didn't do anything for me. In fact, I had gone up to 150mg to try and find ANY dose that would help me sleep....and that is when the p-doc told me that Seroquel begins losing its sedative properties at 100mg.
I don't really know why the Seroquel doesn't work for me, but I've read MANY success stories about it. I'm glad that it is helping you to sleep! "To sleep, per chance to dream". Orlando Bloom, you say? *smile*
Sandy
Posted by barbaracat on July 10, 2004, at 23:09:33
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
Hi again,
My short-lived trial with Seroquel is over. Since starting it I feel awful. There was just one day I felt OK but by the evening the yucky draggy feeling was back. I didn't sleep well at all last night and all day have felt dizzy, dopey, anxious, weird and stooooopid. Plus, I'm lusting after carbs and sweets and have gained 7 POUNDS in 4 days!I tried zyprexa a few years back and felt similarly. Stuck with it for 1 month and finally dropped it. Been reading about how these meds affect histamine, dopamine and serotonin and I don't think my chemistry jibes with them. I was doing great the short while I was just on lithium and St. John's Wort and thought to try Seroquel as a substitute for Ambien for sleeping. But I think I'll resign myself to Ambien for sleeping and hope I can get back to the good way I was feeling pre-Seroquel. Darn, I was hoping this would be a real positive experiment. - BarbCat
Posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 0:20:11
In reply to Seroquel - nope, posted by barbaracat on July 10, 2004, at 23:09:33
> Hi again,
> My short-lived trial with Seroquel is over. Since starting it I feel awful. There was just one day I felt OK but by the evening the yucky draggy feeling was back. I didn't sleep well at all last night and all day have felt dizzy, dopey, anxious, weird and stooooopid. Plus, I'm lusting after carbs and sweets and have gained 7 POUNDS in 4 days!
>
> I tried zyprexa a few years back and felt similarly. Stuck with it for 1 month and finally dropped it. Been reading about how these meds affect histamine, dopamine and serotonin and I don't think my chemistry jibes with them. I was doing great the short while I was just on lithium and St. John's Wort and thought to try Seroquel as a substitute for Ambien for sleeping. But I think I'll resign myself to Ambien for sleeping and hope I can get back to the good way I was feeling pre-Seroquel. Darn, I was hoping this would be a real positive experiment. - BarbCatHi Barb,
Sorry to hear that your experience wasn't positive.I'm sure you'll feel fine after a few days of clearing Seroquel.
The weight gain is a factor. But it's surprising to hear that in four days you've gained 7 lbs. that's very quick esp. at such a low dose.
I've maintained my weight gain at 130 from 115 after one year of gaining back 15lb. But don't know if it's Seroqu. related or not. I think it may be b/c I should be skinnier with all the running around I do.
Maybe give something else a try. Perhaps your li. is enough sedation? Mabye try what Katy is on..Risperal?
Just an aside, but the Seroq. s/e do lessen over time. But it sounds like you have severe s/e.
I mayself have taken a plummenting in mood. My sweet doggie got into a horrendous fight at the Petsmart yesterday. It was the most awful experience of my life almost. It was sooooo scary b/c of his breed. His teeth locked on to a screaming dog and wouldn't let go. I won't go into details but it was a nightmare. No one got seriously injured. Both dogs got more injured by the people trying to break it up by pounding on them with fists and canes....But alas I paid the bill b/c of my breed. another $200 down the tubes in the name of my beloved...I haven't really stopped crying.
i'm so f-ing sensitive that I think this incident has thrown me into a depression. It's awful. I was crying for 2 hours in the Petsmart before I could leave. they even wanted to call a taxi. Poor kids who worked there weren't prepared to council this howling lady and her dog screaming "I'm sooooo conflicted!" "I don't know what to do with him!"take good care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 2:08:06
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » barbaracat, posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 0:20:11
That sounds like a horrific experience with your pooch. A major shock to the system and your adrenaline must have been hammering, especially with the violence of the scene. It takes us bipolars a long time to recover from stress like that. It's almost like a poison you have to recover from. Plus, it's hard to see your critter threatened in any way. We grow so attached to them.
My kitty who almost died over the winter is still doing relatively well. He's pretty amazing. I took him in for a chest x-ray and the vet says he doesn't know what's keeping him alive, things look that bad. He has FIV and has developed an opportunistic lung infection, among other problems. But his will to live is very strong, he runs around, eats well, and loves me so much. Pure delight and love between us. But every now and then he has a massive hacking attack and can't breathe. It tears me apart and I know I have to prepare myself. But I've been saying that for 6 months now, and he's still here! I believe we can feel safer and get closer to our beloved animals than to most people (I sure do) and their loss terrifies us. His sickness is especially agonizing during my bad times and more fodder for the bottomless pit of grief. During the good times I'm able to look at it realistically and appreciate each day with him as a gift.
You'll be fine in a day or two, you know that. Rescue Remedy works well for shocks like this, so does nice slow breathing. Although your pocketbook was hurt, at least your little guy wasn't! Pitbulls are such an intelligent, feisty, protective breed. Part of their charm and their challenge.
As for the meds, I don't think I'll go with an antipsychotic. Something about the dopamine antagonism thing doesn't feel right and I probably need more, not less dopamine. And at this point I have a good feeling about the St. John's and lithium. I guess I'm weird in that lithium has never been anything but great for me - no drooling idiot. It's only the thyroid thing that concerned me. But heck, it's been malfunctioning forever, even though I take thyroid hormone.
Posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 15:28:43
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 2:08:06
Hi Barb,
Do you sleep well enough with just Li. and STJW?
I've been sleeping like a rock lately. Last night 12 hrs. straight and had the most intense dreams. took me 1/2 hour just to open one eye.Therefore, I may try and cut back on the Sero. for the moment. Maybe go to 12.5mg now. Those damn pills are so hard to cut. do you use a pill cutter? Mine is so lousy that when I try and take a lower dose it cuts it lop-sided and I end up taking more than I need to.
The pooch fight. I was not worried about my dog so much as the other dog and the consequences of that due to his targeted breed. It was just awful that I've considered finding him another home. I never really chose this. He sort of adopted me by coming over all the time. But yesterday, he sat with his head in my lap while I read and I felt so happy. Like we'd made up after a fight. It's almost ridiculous how humanly emotional this relationship is with him.
Who knows. I just know I can't afford vet bills of other dogs or worse, like being sued for all I'm worth and own and more.
I have a sweet loveable dog around humans. But other animals are his prey, like he's a lion or an alligator. It's so much responsibility on me when taking for walks.
anyway! Glad to hear your kitty is hanging in there - must be all the love s/he receives.
keep in touch.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 16:10:29
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope, posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 15:28:43
My pill cutter is the standard blue thingy. Works OK for pills of a certain size, but not the bitty ones. I just cut mine in half and then break the other half. I have two and one is definitely better than the other, so you might try another one with a better blade.
I don't sleep well for the most part. I've gone back to Ambien and last night had a great sleep and woke up feeling refreshed and happy, unlike I've felt during my short stint with Seroquel. I'd love to get off sleeping pills and one of these days I'm gonnna start getting up around 5:30 every morning and getting a ton of exercise during the day. I figure I'll just drift off if the conditions are right cause I'll be naturally tired. I don't get enough exercise, which would help with so much. I know if I just committed and got into the habit of a really healthy and active lifestyle, so many of these dumb emotional problems would resolve.
I'll be the longer you have your pooch, the less aggressive he'll be. Who knows what his early conditioning was? But yes, if it gets to be another major source of stress, finding a good home for him would be great for both of you. Finding the good home is the hard part, however, especially with a pitbull. They have a rep, and it takes a special person to understand them. If I know you, I doubt you'll take him to the pound. You'd be up crying all night for months! It probably means you have to keep an extra firm reign on him and put extra effort into training him. Hopefully nothing will come of that experience in PetSmart and it will be an isolated case. Sounds like this was the first time you got to see his beastie boy side and now you know. I have a good feeling about this, Katia, he just needs to understand these things. Love can do amazing things. Do you know about Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah? It's the largest sanctuary for abused and abandoned animals and they're doing a wonderful thing. They put out a magazine filled with wonderful positive stories about the miracles of love for and from the animals.
Yes, my kitty is well loved and that's a big part of why he's still here. He loves me so completely and sometimes I think he's hanging around because I'm not ready to let him go, but he truly loves living, a happy little spirit who delights in life. He's one of my greatest teachers and his love for me is an honor. He'll go on his terms and it gives me alot of comfort that it will happen when he's truly ready. But when that time comes, there's no pretending that I won't be a total basket case and miss him terribly, cause for the past 14 years he's been the sunshine of my life.
> Hi Barb,
> Do you sleep well enough with just Li. and STJW?
> I've been sleeping like a rock lately. Last night 12 hrs. straight and had the most intense dreams. took me 1/2 hour just to open one eye.
>
> Therefore, I may try and cut back on the Sero. for the moment. Maybe go to 12.5mg now. Those damn pills are so hard to cut. do you use a pill cutter? Mine is so lousy that when I try and take a lower dose it cuts it lop-sided and I end up taking more than I need to.
>
> The pooch fight. I was not worried about my dog so much as the other dog and the consequences of that due to his targeted breed. It was just awful that I've considered finding him another home. I never really chose this. He sort of adopted me by coming over all the time. But yesterday, he sat with his head in my lap while I read and I felt so happy. Like we'd made up after a fight. It's almost ridiculous how humanly emotional this relationship is with him.
> Who knows. I just know I can't afford vet bills of other dogs or worse, like being sued for all I'm worth and own and more.
> I have a sweet loveable dog around humans. But other animals are his prey, like he's a lion or an alligator. It's so much responsibility on me when taking for walks.
> anyway! Glad to hear your kitty is hanging in there - must be all the love s/he receives.
> keep in touch.
> Katia
Posted by katia on July 12, 2004, at 2:18:36
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 16:10:29
Hi B-cat,
Yes, exercise is what I need too. Are you just on Li. and SJW now? How much Ambien do you take? Is that OTC? or an RX?No I hadn't heard about that sanctuary.
Sounds great. I've never quite felt so conflicted with a dog before. such a love and (not hate) but frustration and exhaustion. PBs are quite the dog. crawl into your heart like no other and are dynamic creatures. I know! They are like BPs! Have two conflicting and confusing sides to them! and charm their way into the center of your heart with their "good" side. And you don't know whether to love or hate them, but know you love them to death and feel conflicted and confused when feeling anything else for them! I'm on a wild ride with this one. No wonder I haven't felt any inspiration, i haven't had time for it! i feel like a new mother.keep in touch.
k.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 12, 2004, at 11:33:02
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on July 12, 2004, at 2:18:36
> Yes, exercise is what I need too.
**If I didn't have cats I'd get a dog just for the enforced exercise. Rain or shine, you gotta walk that pooch.
>Are you just on Li. and SJW now? How much Ambien do you take? Is that OTC? or an RX?
**I'm on 600mg Li and 1200 SJW, 1T fish oil. Ambien is prescription. I'm also taking 2G L-taurine twice a day. Supposed to help with bipolar, has anticonvulsant properties. I think it helps calm my brain.I'm reading an interesting book "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, PhD. It talks about some of the newest research on mood disorders and offers nutritional ideas. Very interesting.
I was talking to you about going to the Pfeiffer Treatment Center to get a neuro lab workup and get on their regimen. I may go to the Health Recovery Center in Minnesota this Dr. Larson runs instead. Her work is based on Carl Pfeiffer's (who is no longer alive) but I think a bit more up to date. Some of the posts on this board have talked about this.
At any rate, I can't believe how much better I feel not taking Seroquel. I wonder why that happened. SOMETHING happened in my brain so immediately and dramatically that it's worth getting to the root of. It probably would have worn off after a while, but that icky despondent paralyzed feeling was all too familiar. If this one drug can cause such an immediate reaction, other things are doing it too and I want to get to the bottom of it.
About your dog, that conflicted feeling can be so agonizing where there's love/concern/turmoil involved. The unpredictability and ambilvalence triggers all kinds of memories and discomfort within us. Also, there's that huge heart-opening that in itself rocks us to our core, blows our fuses, and stirs up all kinds of things.
My husband had a PB and he was empathizing with your situation (I only told him about the dog, nothing else personal between us). To this day, he loves that dog like no other relationship (she died many years ago). He said that it's weird but other dogs will provoke them, especially the little yappy ones, like they feel they have to prove their machismo. Must be pheromones. I know you've got alot going on in your life, but you might consider going to dog training classes. PBs need alot of tough love, they expect and require it from their 'pack leader'. That's where the training comes in so that they understand what it means to obey their pack leader. He said you can also get him on the floor, straddle his back and grab the skin of his ruff pretty hard to let him know you are the dominant one and his master and say something like 'Listen!'. Do this periodically throughout the day but especially when he's getting ornery at home, sit on him and grab his ruff and say 'Listen!' otherwise it's in their nature to get the upper hand. It gets Pavlovian and you can use the Listen! cue when you're in places where it's not so appropriate to sit on him. Puts you in a different kind of role, huh? Here you are, just trying to maintain and now you're Leader of the Pack. Strange what Life dishes out to us.
You might also take him to a holistic vet and look into homeopathy. One of our cats was going absolutely bizerk this past horrible winter. He was reacting to a new cat we took in who had been abandoned, plus all the crazy wild energy during that time was affecting him badly. Around 9pm he would go totally uncontrollaby wild, eyes dilated, skin got red and inflamed and he'd start attacking all the other cats, and this went on for hours. It was incredibly disruptive and the last thing I needed in my state of mind. Took him to a holistic vet who said 'Ah, I've not seen a clearer case of Belladonna'. Gave him one high-dose remedy and that was it. The change was astounding. I give him boosters of it when he starts acting up again, but it worked. Made me a believer. In the meantime, animals really take to flower essences, especially Rescue Remedy. It's worth a try.
I've tried homeopathy myself and I really think there's something to it, but it's a challenge to find just that right constitutional remedy. And as soon as one works, another layer of stuff gets uncovered that needs a new remedy. Animals aren't quite as complex as we are and usually respond very quickly.
> No I hadn't heard about that sanctuary.
> Sounds great. I've never quite felt so conflicted with a dog before. such a love and (not hate) but frustration and exhaustion. PBs are quite the dog. crawl into your heart like no other and are dynamic creatures. I know! They are like BPs! Have two conflicting and confusing sides to them! and charm their way into the center of your heart with their "good" side. And you don't know whether to love or hate them, but know you love them to death and feel conflicted and confused when feeling anything else for them! I'm on a wild ride with this one. No wonder I haven't felt any inspiration, i haven't had time for it! i feel like a new mother.
>
> keep in touch.
> k.
Posted by katia on July 12, 2004, at 14:02:10
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 12, 2004, at 11:33:02
I might try that Rescue Rememdy.
where do you get it?I may try that "listen" technique. It's so hard for me to do when he's not doing anything wrong. I dole out love and affection much of the time. But I am good at being strict when need be. I was going to go to a training on Sat. we were at the store fitting him for a collar when that happened. He had two black eyes from other people punching him to let go (it was just awful), so I figured the very next day going into a ring of PBs to train would not be a good idea. We'll start with them on the third class at the end of July. I am going out of town and will miss the second. Getting a dog walker is also challenging!!
I don't mind at all what you tell your husband barb.
keep in touch.
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 12, 2004, at 15:50:27
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on July 12, 2004, at 14:02:10
You can get Rescue Remedy at any healthfood store. It's good for people and animals. It's indicated for shock and trauma, but good for any kind of stress. Nothing dramatic, just smooths things out energetically. I know some hard-core cynics who normally scoff at flower essences who use Rescue Remedy.
As far as the listen, sit and hold, you can do it while playing. The main thing is to straddle him and grab the scruff of the neck. It's a primal thing that dominant animals do to maintain their superiority. Listen! simply serves as the Pavlovian response cue (but don't overuse it, just once or twice loudly and firmly, even affectionately while playing).
Dogs need that pack mentality and even an alpha male (which your's sounds like) will willingly submit to a more dominant animal. Obeying gives their little doggie brains something to do. Allowing you to sit and hold without struggling is the goal here, but he may test you the first few times and try to get the upper hand. But that's all part of the game and he's actually expecting you to be firm - not mean, just firm. He'll love and respect you for it. It also helps them feel more secure (this all goes for dogs - cats could give a rip). It can all be incorporated in the spirit of love and fun and the guidance he really wants.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:47:40
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on July 12, 2004, at 14:02:10
> I might try that Rescue Rememdy.
> where do you get it?
>
> I may try that "listen" technique...I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding dog training to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040706/msgs/365414.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by TJO on July 13, 2004, at 9:59:03
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 12, 2004, at 15:50:27
> >
> Hi There,
I want to share some of my experiences because I saw that a while back someone was trying to switch from Risperdal to Seroquel and possibly Abilify. I did that exact same thing and have been on Seroquel since last February, on Abilify for about a year, and off of Risperdal completely for about 2 1/2 months (the doctor tapered me off of the Risperdal).
My meds are 1200 Neurontin, 150 Wellbutrin, 700 mg Seroquel, and 30 mg Abilify. I have minimal side effects-just a little dry mouth occasionally. I was very sleepy at the lower dosages of Seroquel, but the sleepiness went away as I went up in dosage.
i can sympathize with the weight problem-I gained about 20 lbs on Risperdal and I am still trying to lose the last 10 lbs of it. I didn't feel like myself at the higher weight.
As far as pets are concerned I have a cat whch I love dearly as long as she is not eating my college Psych homework which she did once.
Are you still considering a med change? If so I'd be glad to answer your questions.
Tammy
Posted by rocketstar911 on July 14, 2004, at 8:42:56
In reply to Seroquel - nope, posted by barbaracat on July 10, 2004, at 23:09:33
my boyfriend was depressed and couldn't get a job so we brought him to the mobile outreach place. They gave him this seroquel and no information on the drug. So I told him not to take it untill we found out what it was(I had been through the mistake of being stuck in a mental ward and given 20mg of haldol because I had insomnia) So of course I was weary about him taking something when there was no info. Anyway he took it and laid in bed all day crying and not being able to get out of bed. It was very bad. Now he doesn't deny he has a problem but will not go to any doctors. It kind of seems like they talked to him for ten minutes and gave him something unesseceary and harsh. Like couldn't they give him something less crappy like prozac?
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 13:01:11
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope, posted by rocketstar911 on July 14, 2004, at 8:42:56
That's terrible. Perhaps they felt that he was showing signs of schizophrenia and delusions, which is the only reason I can imagine any urgent care/crisis unit would prescribe seroquel. If he was having psychosis along with his depression, it would make sense, but not if he was 'just depressed' (although I know how horrible just depressed can be). What I'm finding out is that some of us get worse when certain neurotransmitters are affected by these drugs. I, and others, on this board were affected by Seroquel the same way as your boyfriend. I laid around crying for 4 days hoping it would get better. Others seem to sail right on through it and do fine. We're all so different.
What brought me out of it was taking a few capsules of Benedryl, which you can get over the counter. It makes one very sleepy, but it lowers the level of histamines, which Seroquel increases. For me, I'm very sensitive to anything that increases histimines, makes me very depressed and anxious. I suspect this is why I reacted so strongly to Seroquel. This is only a conjecture, but a few nights of Benedryl were helpful and it seems to support this guess.
Perhaps prozac is not the best med for your boyfriend. If he's suffering from bipolar disorder any of the SSRI's, like prozac, could make him alot worse. That's why getting in-depth diagnosis is so important. I hope your boyfriend can come to realize that he just got a bum deal and not all doctors are so irresponsible. I hope you or he can let them know the damage they did to your friend's trust and potentially to his mental health.
In the meantime, fish oil might help him and you alot. I take it in liquid form (otherwise you're swallowing a handful of capsules). I get Carlson's Best Fish Oil from www.iherb.com which has the best prices I've found. It's not an immediate cure but it is a nutrient for the brain and will help heal things. Take care. - Barbara
> my boyfriend was depressed and couldn't get a job so we brought him to the mobile outreach place. They gave him this seroquel and no information on the drug. So I told him not to take it untill we found out what it was(I had been through the mistake of being stuck in a mental ward and given 20mg of haldol because I had insomnia) So of course I was weary about him taking something when there was no info. Anyway he took it and laid in bed all day crying and not being able to get out of bed. It was very bad. Now he doesn't deny he has a problem but will not go to any doctors. It kind of seems like they talked to him for ten minutes and gave him something unesseceary and harsh. Like couldn't they give him something less crappy like prozac?
Posted by katia on July 14, 2004, at 13:02:48
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope, posted by rocketstar911 on July 14, 2004, at 8:42:56
Hi,
Sorry to hear about your boyfriend's experience altogether and w/ Seroquel.What it sounds like to me, is that he is depressed and Seroquel made him sedated and then he felt more of the depression. You're right in that it's not an antidepressant. How much did he take?
Sounds like he probably does need to talk more extensively with a professional about it and possibly going on antidepressants or a mood stabilizer combo.
I use Seroquel for sleep at around 25mg.
Katia
Posted by katia on July 14, 2004, at 13:07:29
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » rocketstar911, posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 13:01:11
That's interesting that seroquel increases the levels of histamine. And it's interesting that the increase can have opposite effects for people. I can say that Seroquel is sedating for me and if I'm depressed, I do feel a bit more depressed, but it doesn't make me depressed. But then it helps me to sleep GREAT. When I was up/hypo and just taking Seroquel, i felt great. It didn't make me feel down.
I wonder if the histamine increase can have opposite effects in one person whether they are depressed or manic??
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 15:13:50
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope, posted by katia on July 14, 2004, at 13:07:29
> I wonder if the histamine increase can have opposite effects in one person whether they are depressed or manic??
**Good question. There are conditions called 'histadelia' (too much histimine) and 'histanemia' (too little) which are coming to light in mood disorders, apparently due to an inability to property metabolize the amino acid histadine. Histamine levels affect everyone, but not as dramatically as in someone with a metabolic defect. Histamine is a neurotransmitter, just not as well known as the other three. The question would be to measure these levels during an up/down phase in bipolars.
There are also different histamine receptors that affect things a little differently. The sleepy quality in trazodone, for instance, is supposedly due to histamine release. I was on traz for years and it put me to sleep. Even though I had the morning woozies from it, I never had the bad depression symtpoms like I got from Seroquel. So I guess it depends on which histamine receptor is getting hit. But don't take this as Gospel, Katia. It's mainly my own theory, helped by Scientist, about what might have caused such dramatic symptoms in me and another babbler. I merely put 2 and 2 together from what I know about histamine causing depression and the monographs that state that Seroquel strongly hits histamine receptors.
What's interesting is that you and I have such different reactions to lithium. I love it and you were zombiefied. You do OK on Seroquel and I hated it. Strange. I have an appointment next week with an MD who specializes in these more exotic areas of physical and mood disorders. I'm really jazzed and hope to God something comes to light. Of course I'll let you know how it goes. - Barbara
Posted by katia on July 14, 2004, at 15:44:41
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 15:13:50
Please do let me know. Good luck with that visit.
How's your mood overall now?Mine is so damn hit or miss, I wonder what all these meds are doing anyway? I'm still cycling and irritability "bad nerves", on edge. AND I'm on meds. I wonder about all this. I'm sick of it.
Off to do some shopping therapy.
take good care,
Katia
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