![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 6896 to 6920 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 12:54:15
In reply to Need help!, posted by monkey-d on July 9, 2004, at 12:36:33
Wow, that is horrible news. I'm not a doctor, but I can tell you that stopping any medication cold turkey can and usually does have very negative effects. The result could be anything, odd behavior, headaches, dizzyness, and a plethora of other problems.
A friend at work has a father that we believe is bipolar. He was on meds, and took himself off because, well, he's in denial, and he thinks he doesn't need them. I've been there as well. Anyway, he would suddenly say things like "I'm leaving you", to his wife, and other very abrupt statements and actions. He would then do a 180 as he became less manic.
I've personally have very impaired judgement in my manic phases, and I only realize how impaired I am *after* my manic phase ends. This is too bad as the things I have done in my manic phases were very self destructive.
What he's going through might very well be temporary. The events you describe are very familiar to me, personally, and from other people I knew or heard about.
I would say, give it time, even though this is difficult to do. I'd also explain the situation to a therapist for further ideas of how to attack the situation. I have a stong suspicion that he will eventually "come around", and basically come back to reality. His pattern of behavior is text-book bipolar, at least in my opinion.
Let us/me know what happens.
> My husband and I have been happily married for 12 years...My husband is very outgoing - always the social guy with a huge circle of friends...2 years ago, he was diagnosed and medicated for anxiety and mild depression...he was first taking 37.5 mg of Effexor XR and recently his dosage was bumped up to 75 mg...The past year, my husband and I struggled through an emotional time...his father battled a nasty lung cancer and subsequently died...and we both faced infertility problems...My husband and I are the best of friends - always capable of consoling one another and our communication is good...Three weeks ago, he suddenly stopped taking his medication...This was very apparent in his character and attitude...He now says he stopped taking his medication because it "masks" the real "him"...I MUST mention that his father was the world to him...mentor, friend, everything - so his dying was a huge loss for us both...On Monday - my husband left me...He claims he wants to "flush his life away and start all over"...says he was "never in love with me"...All of this I cannot understand or believe - it's as if it is all coming from an entirely different person...He has detached from his friends and family and emotionally zombie-like...I am not seeking marital help - I just want to understand what he's going through (he's not really communicating with me or anyone on any level other than trivial) and curious if this may be the result of his sudden non-use of Effexor XR...Any comments or experiences most welcome...
Posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 13:10:54
In reply to Need help!, posted by monkey-d on July 9, 2004, at 12:36:33
Yes you should do something. Cold turkey ... NOT with this one, not unless you're being taken care of every minute of the day! Contact his doc or a discrete friend/fam. He needs to taper off it slowly and maybe w/ a backup med. I know how he feels. I am on it and I feel like a zombie too. Until you wrote this, I guess I didn't really know what I was going through, I knew the anxiety was gone and that was good. I thought I was better because I wasn't having anxiety, but ya' know, it's hard feeling nothing, it's so unusual to an emotional and used-to-be outgoing person like me. I lost my best friend, mentor, too, my father, five mos ago. I am calmly planning suicide. Maybe I should be taking a second look at Effexor-XR, but then again the doctors will not give me anything for my anxiety, like Klonopin, any bendodiazepine! And, this is the only thing that works for my anxiety! I'm stuck. I just hope you can help him. He is lucky to have you.
Posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 13:23:59
In reply to Re: Need help! » monkey-d, posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 13:10:54
"calmly planning suicide"????
I hope you were not serious. Suicide is NO solution. There are MANY medications on the market and one or more of them may work for you.
If your current doc doesn't know much about the many different meds out there, find a doc who does. There's therapy too, of course. It's worked for many people I know.Personally, I have to believe that there will be a drug out there to help me. Luckily I've had some success with a few drugs, but a great deal of failures. I can't stand living the way I do, but, I have a wife and two kids who will be caused great pain if I were to leave them, let alone my parents, friends, etc.
Don't let your brain win, as it's just the chemical imbalance that's making you think life is so bad. It really isn't as bad as our brains make us think it is. You have to believe that.
Posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 13:26:22
In reply to Need help!, posted by monkey-d on July 9, 2004, at 12:36:33
I must mention my feelings about bipolar disorder ... a lot of people have that diagnosis. But, it never fit me really. I finally realized that I had post traumatic stress which caused me to have a borderline personality disorder. Maybe, he just went through way too much trauma. Borderline people turn their feelings inward and for some reason think they are bad. There is treatment called dialectical behavioral therapy. It teaches people to think or see in a wise way, not an emotional or intellectual way, individually, but together emotions and intellect = wise. W/o emotions he may be headed down the same path that I am. I feel nothing, suicide just makes sense. I have an injury to my back for which I am taking a narcotic that also keeps me from feeling, but the pain is horrendous. I hate being a zombie too.
Posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 13:32:13
In reply to Re: Need help!, posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 13:23:59
My brain win - that does make sense. But, I don't have anyone. I have alerted them and they do not respond. I have been on every SSRI that exists. I have chronic pain. Tks for your insight very much!
Posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 14:11:18
In reply to Re: Need help! » Harlock, posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 13:32:13
Well, it makes sense to me. Haven't you ever felt good in your life? Well, there's a way to get there again. If you can do it once, you can do it again.
Also, It's pretty hard to believe that absolutely no one cares for you.
When I say my brain is winning, then I'm letting whatever reactions/chemical processes that make me unhappy BE the norm for me. I know that I have some form of chemical imbalance/whatever that makes me *abnormally* unhappy. If I were to believe that the way I feel when I'm depressed is reality, I probably would have dissapeared a long time ago.
I continue to fight. I'm going to try every single drug on the market now, and every future drug until I'm feeling better, or any other type of treatment for that matter. Drugs aren't always the answer, they just have worked better than any other method for me.
I'd say don't give up! Emotions are temporary beasts. If the majority of them are depressing, then there are ways to change that. Just because you feel horrible and hopeless now, doesn't mean you will always feel that way.
I became suicidal in high school. I thought life would never get better. I was damn well convinced of it, and no one could tell me any different. I was wrong. I fought the negative emotions and I'm still fighting them. I won't let them destroy me, and you shouldn't either.
> My brain win - that does make sense. But, I don't have anyone. I have alerted them and they do not respond. I have been on every SSRI that exists. I have chronic pain. Tks for your insight very much!
Posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 15:54:08
In reply to Re: Need help!, posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 14:11:18
Three wonderful children care about me. But how can I continue to allow myself to take their time, money, and maybe ruin their relationships. I refuse to. When my father died, my family of origin dissed me, or disrespected me, disregarded me. No one but my father stood by me in this struggle. I turned to his brother and we talked, I called him. Today I called both of his numbers and it sounded like the phone hung up. Today I called my mother and asked her if I could move into one of her two empty houses near my children. She says 'no, that she may not even want to keep them'. She inherited a large amount of money, and borrowed another 100thousand and all of my family of origin are enjoying the new business she built in another state, not close. I am here. I asked her please not to include me because all I wanted was a home here by my children. She didn't blink an eye or turn her head to say NO. Anyway, the idea of moving closer to my children may help me. They are very busy with their lives and I see maybe two of them once a week. They never just come over to visit. They are just too busy. With borderline personality disorder, you tend to alienate people because of the way you communicate with them. Now, I ask one of my daughters to accompany me to doctor visits...to speak for me. I'm agoraphobic, don't even want to walk down the way to get my mail. My family of origin has dissed me. The children are to be given to, not taken from. Can you kind of see how I feel about that? If my father were here, he would help me. I told my mother I wrote a will and she giggled and said ok, bye.
Posted by monkey-d on July 9, 2004, at 16:25:54
In reply to Re: Need help!, posted by Harlock on July 9, 2004, at 12:54:15
Thanks to you all for all the support.I can't tell you how much it helps talking to people who are going through similar feelings and emotions. This is a difficult time for me, I have not only lost my husband but the person I am closest too. Like I said, he is my best friend and I only want the best for him, even if this isn't the withdrawls and it is me, I just want him to be happy in life.....What I didn't mention in my original post was that he did the same thing 10 years ago (almost exactly to the date). He left saying he "never loved me" and a month later he was back. Then being different because he wasn't on any kind of meds back then....Every year at this time he goes through a deep depression...Now he is saying he only came back into my life and has stayed for the 10 years due to "guilt". Why he would feel "guilt" is beyond me, we dont have kids and life would have been easier to start over back then....I don't want to bank on the fact that this is just him needing to go through this because in the end I need to think about myself. But the facts do point towards depression and/or withdrawls. Last year not only did his dad get diagnosed with Lung Cancer, Suffer and die from it in which my husband took very good care of him the last month of his life. My mom was diagnosed (actually the DAY prior to my father-in-law)with breast cancer, treated and is now she is fine. And not to mention I suffered a miscarrage after going through fertility treatments. Then earlier this year both of the businesses we own were doing bad and we were on the verge of Bankruptcy. Then we are at the end of the road with the fertility treaments with no success (in which has to be hard on him also being the overacheiver that he is and always meeting his goals in life)and by the way now says he "never wanted a child". With all this in mind then he comes to the time of year in which he suffers from depression the most and stops taking his Effexor. From the outside it sounds like he might come around, but again, dont want to get my hopes up. He also tells me he felt this way about me when he was taking Effexor....Again thanks for all the responses, it really helps to talk.
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 0:06:42
In reply to Re: Discontinuation Syndrome, posted by KaraS on July 9, 2004, at 2:46:04
Hi. I'm pretty 'lost' feeling right know; my brain isn't getting this.
A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.....
What does that mean?
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:14:28
In reply to Re: withdrawal duration, posted by John Doe on February 6, 2003, at 1:48:17
New to the group. I've been about 7 weeks on 75mg of xr and it's been great for what my doc calls repressed anxiety. Not a worry in the world but no dreams, bad sleep waking repeatedly and early rise. It worked within 20 minutes of the first 37.5mg sample pack dose though the good effects took a couple weeks to overcome initial discomfort. My real problem though is motivation/procrastination. Well the stubbornness of the repressed anxiety is a big deal too but anyways I've continued to procrastinate. Initially the effect was narcotic enough to reduce my drinking from a high of 9 drinks per night to two and I have been very pleasant on this drug. But I ramped back up to the original drinking and experimented with some blissful pot smoking as well with eventless days of content inaction and pittering about the house.
Anyways, my bottle is about up so the night before last I quit. I felt nothing but the return of dreams and some more energy yesterday. Another wonderful dreamy night without waking last night (I had zero dreams on this drug and woke repeatedly arising early) and today I've been feeling the brain zaps (though not too bad, just strange) and I've been conspicuously hyperactive enjoying listening to music feeling emotions, crying at the songs, feeling chills up my spine, walking around dancing to the music feeling great. I feel like I'm on speed or something though and the brain zaps have been increasing.
Just goes to prove it's different for everyone I guess. I wouldn't say I was emotionless on effexor but certainly numbed. I could laugh but not cry. No intense pleasure but overall quite "pleasant" and agreeable, less stubborn for sure. I'm supposed to be getting in touch with my repressed feelings in therapy but there was nothing: just a calm demeanor.
Thinking I'd like to try Prozac with Dexadrine as ADD inattentive type is a possible diagnosis for me. I tried Wellbutrin (made me overfocussed and bad sleep) and Ritalin and Aderall which just got me high (I never was fond of stimulants anyways). As I understand Wellbutrin acts on noradrenalin and I really didn't like that and sensed some of the same effect from effexor. I am introverted, intelligent, stubborn, independent, impractical and unable to hold a job or follow through with a potentially very rewarding self employment situation I've got set up for the past couple years.
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:18:05
In reply to Re: Discontinuation Syndrome » KaraS, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 0:06:42
> Hi. I'm pretty 'lost' feeling right know; my brain isn't getting this.
>
> A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.....
>
> What does that mean?withdrawals (which I've read are clinically called "discontinuation syndrome" because we are not really addicted to effexor for it to be called withdrawals.
Posted by KaraS on July 10, 2004, at 0:34:44
In reply to Re: Discontinuation Syndrome » KaraS, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 0:06:42
> Hi. I'm pretty 'lost' feeling right know; my brain isn't getting this.
>
> A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.....
>
> What does that mean?"A Rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."
In other words, they can call it whatever they want - they can say that getting off of some of these antidepressants is "discontinuation syndrome" not addiction withdrawal, but it's still feels just as much like Hell!
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 9:50:40
In reply to Re: STOPPING Effexor made easy, posted by tripperjoe on June 12, 2004, at 22:33:45
LOL OK so I'm not the only one! The brain zaps feel a lot like little quick thrills of excitement to me.
BTW I'm new here and cannot comprehend any logic in the way the threads are organized. I'm responding to tripperjoe's post titled STOPPING Effexor made easy but now it's using my title "effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me"
> I love effexor withdrawal. Its just like being drunk for weeks on end without having to gulp down a quart of vodka a day. I take my usual dose for a week, then two weeks off, then back to my dosing. The visuals are great, and remind me of my first year of college and LSD.. yumm. It is ironic that you cant buy a joint, but they will let you pop these bad boys.. Gotta love the capitalists eh..
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 10:12:30
In reply to Re: bizarre dreams, drinking on effexor, sweats, posted by AngeLMeg on May 1, 2004, at 4:33:40
It's hard to believe these are the same meds we are talking about. I could barely drink on wellbutrin and can drink like a fish on effexor.
> > Ya know...
> >
> > Most pharmacies put a little label on the bottle that says something to the effect of "Avoid Alcohol" when taking Effexor (or any other antidepressant for that matter...) It's just *not* a good idea, nor very smart. I'm glad that all you suffered was the mother of all hang-overs, and not something worse. People die doing stuff like that... The label the pharmacy put on my Wellbutrin prescription said: "Do not use alcohol while taking this medication, may cause DEATH". I'm not making this up.
> >
> > As for night sweats, these drugs *do* seem to mess up one's body temperature regulation. I woke up the other night, my side of the bed was *SOAKED* with sweat and when I got up to use the bathroom, the sweat was literally *dripping* off me as I stood there taking a leak. VERY weird, and definitely *NOT* something I've ever experienced in my life, short of when I've been sick and had a fever break. I can't attribute it to the Effexor however. It could just as well have bee the Seroquel.
> >
> > Good luck and please avoid drinking. The risk is just not worth it while on these drugs.
> >
> > Tony
>
> *Actually, Tony...Wellbutrin is one of the safer drugs to drink on. I'm not recommending it, but doctors will choose Wellbutrin specifically for heavy drinkers.*
>
>
Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:13:31
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 9:50:40
> LOL OK so I'm not the only one! The brain zaps feel a lot like little quick thrills of excitement to me.
>
> BTW I'm new here and cannot comprehend any logic in the way the threads are organized. I'm responding to tripperjoe's post titled STOPPING Effexor made easy but now it's using my title "effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me"
>
> > I love effexor withdrawal. Its just like being drunk for weeks on end without having to gulp down a quart of vodka a day. I take my usual dose for a week, then two weeks off, then back to my dosing. The visuals are great, and remind me of my first year of college and LSD.. yumm. It is ironic that you cant buy a joint, but they will let you pop these bad boys.. Gotta love the capitalists eh..
>
>In reference to the above posting.........
GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever actually gulped down a quart of vodka a day? I HAVE, I'm in recovery now, thank God and it's NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
Reminds me of something I heard at a meeting once about people wanting to drink like "normal" people. Well, "normal" people stop drinking when they get that out of control feeling, "normal" people would rather be control of themselves. Us alcoholics actually feel more in control when we drink. "I dance better...I screw better...I drive better..." And how about those vodka muscles? Sad to see a loud-mouth drunk get his a** kicked AND still run his/her mouth before passing out.
Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:22:35
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:14:28
Pablo, no disrespect or criticism here, but have you ever considered your problem might be alcohol?
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:13:31
I'm a calm steady drinker. Never get wild. The liquor just relaxes me & I'm fine drinking a bottle & a half of wine every night. Toward the end I realize it's way more than I need but just keep filling the glass. Sometimes staggering on my way to bed.
If I don't drink or smoke weed I get this icky spacey feeling. Never had withdrawal more than the first few days of anxiety. When I drink I can relax and actually feel good rather than being anxious and dissatisfied with life. Weed is a wonderful creative euphoric for me but turns me into an incapacitated space cadet as I've become middle aged. I want to smoke it all day and that doesn't work any more.
> > LOL OK so I'm not the only one! The brain zaps feel a lot like little quick thrills of excitement to me.
> >
>
> In reference to the above posting.........
> GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever actually gulped down a quart of vodka a day? I HAVE, I'm in recovery now, thank God and it's NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
> Reminds me of something I heard at a meeting once about people wanting to drink like "normal" people. Well, "normal" people stop drinking when they get that out of control feeling, "normal" people would rather be control of themselves. Us alcoholics actually feel more in control when we drink. "I dance better...I screw better...I drive better..." And how about those vodka muscles? Sad to see a loud-mouth drunk get his a** kicked AND still run his/her mouth before passing out.
>
>
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:38:54
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 11:22:35
Yes, that's certainly very likely the core problem. I suppose it would be wise to try a rehab program with healthy eating and such. Don't know how long I'd need to try that to feel better. I've quit for a week or so with little problem but end up really preferring to drink or something. The Effexor was initially narcotic enough for me to greatly reduce drinking.
I used to smoke pot in highschool constantly to feel 'normal'. That gradually converted to drinking. I never cared for speed, downers or those. I've been maybe a month straight many times through my life and never really felt wonderful that way either.
> Pablo, no disrespect or criticism here, but have you ever considered your problem might be alcohol?
Posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 12:07:16
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:38:54
Well, I am an alcoholic in recovery. I have 1-1/2 years sober now. A rehab usually is 28 days, only you know if you'd really need that, but if you're serious about stopping drinking that's the best place to start. You will be educated on alcoholism, taught how to begin dealing with life on life's terms et cetera. Obviously you have other issues as well, as do I. I don't know if I drank because of the depression or vice versa, but when I finally accepted the depression and went on meds (of course without drinking) I was able to get a grip on the alcoholism and REALLY work on ME. Now, if you've read my other posts, I'm almost off the meds, too. My life is good now. I can't begin to tell you the hell I've been in with alcoholism and depression combo.
Good luck to you. Any questions, feel free to ask
Posted by semi-conscious on July 10, 2004, at 12:18:12
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
>>
>DEAR PABLOL,
YOU'RE ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL AND WEED. ALCOHOL AND WEED INTERFERE WITH THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ANY ANTI-DEPRESSANT. IT WOULD ALSO KEEP YOU FROM EXPERIENCING THE SAME TYPES OF WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS THAT OTHERS HAVE. YOU ARE PROBABLY DUAL-DIAGNOSIS. YOU HAVE THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION AS WELL AS DEPRESSION. YOU WILL NEVER RECOVER FROM EITHER UNLESS YOU ADDRESS THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME. LOVE, TAYLOR
I'm a calm steady drinker. Never get wild. The liquor just relaxes me & I'm fine drinking a bottle & a half of wine every night. Toward the end I realize it's way more than I need but just keep filling the glass. Sometimes staggering on my way to bed.
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 14:51:54
In reply to Re: Discontinuation Syndrome, posted by KaraS on July 10, 2004, at 0:34:44
> > Hi. I'm pretty 'lost' feeling right know; my brain isn't getting this.
> >
> > A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.....
> >
> > What does that mean?
>
> "A Rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."
>
> In other words, they can call it whatever they want - they can say that getting off of some of these antidepressants is "discontinuation syndrome" not addiction withdrawal, but it's still feels just as much like Hell!So true! Thank you!
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:38:34
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 0:14:28
Yes my anxiety is less on Effexor-XR, but I feel a bit numb too. What is Dexadrine? Do docs ever prescribe some sort of a stimulant type drug. I've always been a perfectionist about my housekeeping, now it is clean, but cluttered, and it doesn't even bother me. I can cry a little. I can laugh less. What are the things in the brain that help w/ this I don't give a ____ attitude', I wonder? Anyone w/ ideas?
Posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:52:55
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 10:12:30
I have night sweats on Effexor-XR.
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 21:04:13
In reply to Night Sweats - Effexor-XR » pablo1, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:52:55
> I have night sweats on Effexor-XR.
I also got night sweats. Sometimes the pillow was soaked. It seemed they got a little better over the course of 7 weeks at 75mg. Unfortunately I woke up several times per night to pee with my mind racing and arose early. I think the mild withdrawal is like a hyper rebound and there was an up down cycle at night too awake and napy in the day (which finally had begun to improve. I'd almost venture to say I'm coming out of this in a manic cycle that I've never really had before.
Posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 21:26:31
In reply to Effexor-XR - Emotions Dulled » pablo1, posted by Corafree on July 10, 2004, at 16:38:34
Dexadrine is an ADD stimulant like Ritalin. If you are neat and anxiety is a big problem it's not for you. I'm anxious and messy... and of course depressed Ha!
The current pdoc diagnosis is
(in the following order):
1. repressed anxiety (obsessive avoidance)
2. depression (repressed anger)
3. inattentive ADD (impractical creativity)so I thought the Xyrem could allow me to explore my hidden anxiety and depression without worry and genuinely relax and sleep like a baby then a dopamine rush rebound for energy. Ordinarily I struggle to remain calm bottling up my anxiety and am not able to feel much. The Effexor relaxed the anxiety that kept me bottled up and defensive but certainly didn't alow me to explore my feelings. If my depression is bottled up anger, I still have no clue and can't get in touch with any of that. I sobbed for a couple weeks before effexor because of a divorce, then once going on effexor I was immediately calm and pleasant (weird). It's supposed to be easy to cry and feel things on Xyrem and is supposed to give a healing restful sleep leaving you refreshed and having loosened up, let it all out.
> Yes my anxiety is less on Effexor-XR, but I feel a bit numb too. What is Dexadrine? Do docs ever prescribe some sort of a stimulant type drug. I've always been a perfectionist about my housekeeping, now it is clean, but cluttered, and it doesn't even bother me. I can cry a little. I can laugh less. What are the things in the brain that help w/ this I don't give a ____ attitude', I wonder? Anyone w/ ideas?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.