![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 0:01:21
Thanks for all the great responses. Here's my number one concern, & what I'm just not understanding.
When I see the insert that comes with the Abilify, it says that the drug is indicated for the treatment of schizophrenia, period. It makes me feel scared. I don't have any delusions, psychotic episodes, hallucinations, or paranoia, etc. I am not schizophrenic. Could this medicine be dangerous for me?
When prescribed for a schizophrenic, what symptoms does it alleviate? Is anything else prescribed in conjunction, or is that it? For example, most posters have stated that it is outstanding in terms of being an energizing, motivating drug. Is that why it is prescribed to schizophrenics, to enable social contact? Or does it truly help to eradicate the psychosis, in which case, isn't it an odd prescription for someone with severe, treatment resistant depression only?
I'm scared that it is the wrong drug for me, that it is intended for serious psychotic symptoms, and not for what I experience. I am afraid of any long term side effects or changes in brain chemistry that may be detrimental (I do understand that this is a possibility with all drugs). I have taken it for two days now, & am scared to keep taking it without more information. My doctor called it a "mood stabilizer", which sounded great, but everyone else calls it an anti-psychotic. He won't give me any more information. Please bear with me, but I'm scared, & need answers. Can anyone help?
Posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 0:17:34
In reply to Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abilify, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 0:01:21
don't take it
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 1:24:30
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 0:17:34
> don't take it
Could you tell me why you feel that way?
Posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 3:35:10
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 1:24:30
Drugs have only brought extraordinary misery into my life. They put me on powerful anti-psychotics like geodon even though I only have depression and anxiety, I am now going through a withdrawal of geodon that is so horrible I can't describe it in words, humans haven't come up with a physical description as to the pain that these drugs can cause you. People that are psychotic shouldn't even be on them, my horrible experiences make me want to invent a new system of psychology that is more effecctive just so people don't have to go on the road to drugs. They always get you in the beginning, they are like great salespeople...these doctors and scientists. The companies they work for know that the person they are trying to sell the drug to is going through pain and that they would probably rather find a quick answer in drugs then work things out in their tlives for themselves or with psychologists of every nature. Don't let them fool you that you need something as dangerous as these drugs....the side effects are common and it is unfortunate that it is even more common for doctors to not assess the symptoms seriously enough, usually scoffing at them as if they are a fabrication of the patients mind. I hope there are many people reading this post, I want to help people before they make the same mistakes that I did. Hopefully there is enough time for me left but it is better for one to have not taken this road to begin with. I can post so many stories of the experiences I've had with various psychiatrists and whatnot, and how careless they are in their patients well being. Anyway, there is a good reason why you are questioning such action by your doctor, you should trust yourself before anyone else, I know this may sound pessimistic but in reality they really don't care much about what happens to you. They don't go to sleep at night wondering if what they gave you is going to effect your liver or give you panic attacks so horrible that it feels like a million razors slashing you continually without rest while being paralyzed in thought and body. So if you want the lesser hell, stick with depression sans the pathetic anti-psychotics.
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 4:23:57
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 3:35:10
> Drugs have only brought extraordinary misery into my life. They put me on powerful anti-psychotics like geodon even though I only have depression and anxiety, I am now going through a withdrawal of geodon that is so horrible I can't describe it in words, humans haven't come up with a physical description as to the pain that these drugs can cause you. People that are psychotic shouldn't even be on them, my horrible experiences make me want to invent a new system of psychology that is more effective just so people don't have to go on the road to drugs. They always get you in the beginning, they are like great salespeople...these doctors and scientists. The companies they work for know that the person they are trying to sell the drug to is going through pain and that they would probably rather find a quick answer in drugs then work things out in their tives for themselves or with psychologists of every nature. Don't let them fool you that you need something as dangerous as these drugs....the side effects are common and it is unfortunate that it is even more common for doctors to not assess the symptoms seriously enough, usually scoffing at them as if they are a fabrication of the patients mind. I hope there are many people reading this post, I want to help people before they make the same mistakes that I did. Hopefully there is enough time for me left but it is better for one to have not taken this road to begin with. I can post so many stories of the experiences I've had with various psychiatrists and whatnot, and how careless they are in their patients well being. Anyway, there is a good reason why you are questioning such action by your doctor, you should trust yourself before anyone else, I know this may sound pessimistic but in reality they really don't care much about what happens to you. They don't go to sleep at night wondering if what they gave you is going to effect your liver or give you panic attacks so horrible that it feels like a million razors slashing you continually without rest while being paralyzed in thought and body. So if you want the lesser hell, stick with depression sans the pathetic anti-psychotics.
Jubei,
I feel what you are saying, & I'm up all night again, sleepless, but at least gleaning valueable information from this sight. I read a few of your earlier posts regarding your stance on psychotropic drugs, & I have to say, you make a lot of cogent points. I keep going back and forth in my mind...on the way home today, I was convinced that the first thing I would do when I walked through the door would be to throw the Abilify into the garbage can...(I have the luxury of receiving free samples from the doc, so I have thrown away quite an assortment of stuff he has given me in the past that I didn't want to take). Sadly enough, he is so far removed from my treatment that he never even asks how these drugs worked out when I come back for a visit, because he doesn't seem to remember giving them to me. He just tells me to "call him with any progress", but doesn't contact me if he doesn't hear from me. But then tonight, I found an old thread where tons of people are just raving about how much better Abilify made them feel! I don't want to miss out on something that could be "the one", but I'm scared. I feel for your withdrawal from Geodon...I don't know if it's similar, but I withdrew from Effexor six weeks ago, & I am still having nasty, uncomfortable symtoms, and this is exactly what scares me. Never mind how much the doctors don't know...check out how much I don't know. I would never have believed a drug (Effexor) could do this to you...I mean, joint pain & crying spells after six weeks? Why?? & I almost understand my doctor scoffing at me (though it hurts & angers me), because it does seem entirely bizarre & exaggerated. Those of us who have gone through withdrawal understand, though. If you read my post from the last period entitled, "My doctor is not listening", you may better understand where I am coming from. I believe in the power of the mind over the body & vice-versa, I am a dancer & a long distance runner, I get lots of exercise, eat super healthy, yoga, mediation, bla bla. My point is, I'm not just sitting around waiting for the miracle drug...but I truly believe I need drugs, & maybe always will. My depression is too powerful, and left untreated, I always attempt harm to myself. I've had all of the ad's...all of them except the MAOIs, & only Prozac has worked. I want to give the Abilify a try, but after what I went through with the Effexor withdrawals, I am scared silly to guinea pig myself into something new. No one has mentioned Abilify withdrawals...I don't think I could live through that kind of pain & psychosis again. What to do. I just don't know. Well. maybe I do, but what if Abilify is as wonderful as they say??
Posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 11:23:06
In reply to Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abilify, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 0:01:21
Hi!
I'm sorry that you're so worried. Please don't be. For reasons that I don't understand but I think have a lot to do with marketing, psychiatrists are giving out antipsychotic meds for nearly everything these days. I think the number of people who take AP's who really do suffer from schizophrenia are a minority now!
Please check out this recent discussion on this topic:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040505/msgs/344927.html
At any rate, I have heard of people getting antidepressant effects from Abilify, so it might help. I think there are better options, though.
If you have tried TCA's, you should definitely try a MAOI. The MAOI's are probably overall the best antidepressants. It is important to follow the dietary restrictions, but I have been doing that for six months now and it isn't hard.
Hope this helps.
Posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 11:51:29
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 4:23:57
> > Drugs have only brought extraordinary misery into my life. They put me on powerful anti-psychotics like geodon even though I only have depression and anxiety, I am now going through a withdrawal of geodon that is so horrible I can't describe it in words, humans haven't come up with a physical description as to the pain that these drugs can cause you. People that are psychotic shouldn't even be on them, my horrible experiences make me want to invent a new system of psychology that is more effective just so people don't have to go on the road to drugs. They always get you in the beginning, they are like great salespeople...these doctors and scientists. The companies they work for know that the person they are trying to sell the drug to is going through pain and that they would probably rather find a quick answer in drugs then work things out in their tives for themselves or with psychologists of every nature. Don't let them fool you that you need something as dangerous as these drugs....the side effects are common and it is unfortunate that it is even more common for doctors to not assess the symptoms seriously enough, usually scoffing at them as if they are a fabrication of the patients mind. I hope there are many people reading this post, I want to help people before they make the same mistakes that I did. Hopefully there is enough time for me left but it is better for one to have not taken this road to begin with. I can post so many stories of the experiences I've had with various psychiatrists and whatnot, and how careless they are in their patients well being. Anyway, there is a good reason why you are questioning such action by your doctor, you should trust yourself before anyone else, I know this may sound pessimistic but in reality they really don't care much about what happens to you. They don't go to sleep at night wondering if what they gave you is going to effect your liver or give you panic attacks so horrible that it feels like a million razors slashing you continually without rest while being paralyzed in thought and body. So if you want the lesser hell, stick with depression sans the pathetic anti-psychotics.
>
> Jubei,
>
> I feel what you are saying, & I'm up all night again, sleepless, but at least gleaning valueable information from this sight. I read a few of your earlier posts regarding your stance on psychotropic drugs, & I have to say, you make a lot of cogent points. I keep going back and forth in my mind...on the way home today, I was convinced that the first thing I would do when I walked through the door would be to throw the Abilify into the garbage can...(I have the luxury of receiving free samples from the doc, so I have thrown away quite an assortment of stuff he has given me in the past that I didn't want to take). Sadly enough, he is so far removed from my treatment that he never even asks how these drugs worked out when I come back for a visit, because he doesn't seem to remember giving them to me. He just tells me to "call him with any progress", but doesn't contact me if he doesn't hear from me. But then tonight, I found an old thread where tons of people are just raving about how much better Abilify made them feel! I don't want to miss out on something that could be "the one", but I'm scared. I feel for your withdrawal from Geodon...I don't know if it's similar, but I withdrew from Effexor six weeks ago, & I am still having nasty, uncomfortable symtoms, and this is exactly what scares me. Never mind how much the doctors don't know...check out how much I don't know. I would never have believed a drug (Effexor) could do this to you...I mean, joint pain & crying spells after six weeks? Why?? & I almost understand my doctor scoffing at me (though it hurts & angers me), because it does seem entirely bizarre & exaggerated. Those of us who have gone through withdrawal understand, though. If you read my post from the last period entitled, "My doctor is not listening", you may better understand where I am coming from. I believe in the power of the mind over the body & vice-versa, I am a dancer & a long distance runner, I get lots of exercise, eat super healthy, yoga, mediation, bla bla. My point is, I'm not just sitting around waiting for the miracle drug...but I truly believe I need drugs, & maybe always will. My depression is too powerful, and left untreated, I always attempt harm to myself. I've had all of the ad's...all of them except the MAOIs, & only Prozac has worked. I want to give the Abilify a try, but after what I went through with the Effexor withdrawals, I am scared silly to guinea pig myself into something new. No one has mentioned Abilify withdrawals...I don't think I could live through that kind of pain & psychosis again. What to do. I just don't know. Well. maybe I do, but what if Abilify is as wonderful as they say??
>
>
I know some people feel better on medication but for me I realized that I would rather feel depressed all the time then have the side effects from geodon that I am having. I don't know what it has done to my body and I have only been on it for a month but the pain from it is nearly unbearable. I'm trying to ween off of it with my doctor but ever since I started lower doses the symptoms have become much worse. The drowsiness is really bad, I was going to do stuff with my mom yesterday but I was knocked out. I don't want to commit suicide but the withdrawal pain is unbearable I'm not sure if it will go away, whats the point of being in pain 24/7?
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 12:48:04
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili » kittencat, posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 11:23:06
Thanks, all...excellent points all around. Thanks, Harry P, for the link to the recent discussion...I feel much more well informed now, and less afraid, though it has raised my ire even higher towards the more- than- often times irresponsible medical community, & the money-hungry pharmeceutical companies.
Orca-grade weight gain. Too much. I am watching that one carefully.
Posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 16:14:12
In reply to Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abilify, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 0:01:21
I agree with a great deal of what jubei wrote. APs are being prescribed for all kinds of non-psychotic disorders simply because big pharma is making a great deal of money from them so their reps push them to pdocs to prescribe. I have taken just about all the APs but I have psychotic episodes (I am diagnosed with bipolar 1). they have some awful side-effects (EPS) with akathisia being the worst for me personally. there is no way I would ever risk EPS if I wasn't psychotic at times- and even then I take APs for as short a time as possible.
best of luck-judy
Posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 16:17:28
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 3:35:10
I don't often read this board so I'm unfamiliar with your history. Your outlook is very similar to mine- if you don't mind can you write about what turned you into (like me) a 'psychiatric survivor'?
take care, judy
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 18:28:05
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili » jubei, posted by judy1 on May 10, 2004, at 16:17:28
> I don't often read this board so I'm unfamiliar with your history. Your outlook is very similar to mine- if you don't mind can you write about what turned you into (like me) a 'psychiatric survivor'?
> take care, judyJudy...you're awfully sweet. I have always had crushing, paralyzing depression, with suicide attempts & lots of isolation. About 15 years ago, I was precribed Prozac, & it changed my life. People around me marveled at the change. I really felt "alive", positive, & not so afraid of people. It wore off, or wasn't enough, though...two years after that I checked myself into an eating disorder treatment at a big hospital, & boy, did they love to prescribe drugs. Everyone got drugs...within one year I was on Lithium, Pamelor, Paxil, Zoloft, and Effexor (all at different times). Still suicidal, still miserable...the years went by, after seven years off all drugs, decided to give 'em a go again...got Prozac first, & it worked GREAT...but after about 3 months it just stops. Since then, my doctor has put me on Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Celexa, Serzone, BusPar, Effexor, Zyprexa, & now the Abilify. Nothing has ever helped but the Prozac...I never took the Zyprexa, & now I think I am going to throw out the Abilify. It's just that everyone has said how it is so energizing & motivating...that is one of my biggest problems. I am so tired all the time & cannot seem to get myself to take action- I spend day after day at home in bed or on the couch, & the years are slipping by, fast. There always needs to be some sort of major emergency to get me to take action. The fact that I've always done so well on Prozac makes me feel that an ssri is the right route for me, not an anti-psychotic. I do feel crazy & do crazy things, but I can't help but wonder if it's a craziness I have created by locking myself into a tiny apartment day after day. At this point I am terrified of people & can barely handle looking the cashier in the eye at the grocery store.
Don't know how enlightening that was...I started posting a few weeks ago if you wanted to go back & look at old threads...you are sweet to show interest...how are things going for you??
Posted by fraulein1456 on May 10, 2004, at 18:54:03
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 18:28:05
I can't explain how abilify works. I think with your background and the list of all the drugs you have taken that you should give the abilify a go at the low dosage (1/4 pill right?) and see how it goes for a couple of weeks. Go real slow with it. If it perks you up after two weeks great. If not or you have side effects, then dump it.
I also think that if your doctor can't give you a satisfactory explaination of how a drug works and why he is prescribing it, then you should see another doctor.
Posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 20:45:12
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 11:51:29
Antipsychotics generally cause changes in your brain's sensistivity to dopamine. They also tend to block the action of dopamine. When you go off them, it is important to taper slowly so your body can get used to having a "normal" neurochemistry again.
I'm sorry about your experience. I had to read my Dr. the riot act eventually and he gave up trying to give me antipsychotics for my depression. I have a much better med combo now. I do not for the life of me understand why everyone is on antipsychotics now!
They are very powerful drugs, with strong side effects. It's one thing to take them because you need them, but prescribing them for depression makes no sense to me.
Posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 21:00:53
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 18:28:05
You could always try the Abilify at a low dose (half a pill at night) for a while, just to see how you respond to it. I have heard good things about it, although I responded very badly to it.
Everything about your history makes me think Parnate! Parnate!
Parnate is a MAOI that not only is extraordinarily effective as an antidepressant, but is NOT associated with weight gain and actually has a stimulating effect. It is ideal for people who feel immobilized and "leaden" because of depression. It also has very few other side effects and doesn't make one feel numb or stupid. The main issue is diet and drug interactions, but many think the effect of the drug is more than worth the trouble.
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 21:09:54
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili » kittencat, posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 21:00:53
Exactly how difficult is it to follow the dietary restrictions on an MAOI? Not that it would deter me from taking it...I'm just quite curious. Seems like almost everything from sweeteners to cold medicine to whatever has that MAOI warning on it. Why don't doctors commonly prescribe them anymore? Is it because the newer ones seem more effective to them?
Posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 21:12:26
In reply to Re: Please help me understand: harryp, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 21:09:54
And p.s... Could you detail your experience w/Abilify for me? You said you really didn't like it?
Posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 21:19:11
In reply to Re: Please help me understand schizophrenia/ Abili » jubei, posted by harryp on May 10, 2004, at 20:45:12
What happened was I was taking geodon and experiencing msucle twitching. so the next morning i didn't take the dose and by the evening i had a really bad panic attack. if you go off cold turkey your body will return to normal eventually though right? I am tapering off geodon because it has caused me to feel like crap.
Posted by harryp on May 11, 2004, at 2:17:48
In reply to Re: Please help me understand:harryp, posted by jubei on May 10, 2004, at 21:19:11
I think you should be fine. Just taper slowly and don't rush yourself.
Posted by harryp on May 11, 2004, at 2:43:49
In reply to Re: Please help me understand: harryp, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 21:12:26
About MAOI's:
There is a pretty good diet/drug list on the www.dr-bob.org homepage. Someone taking a MAOI needs to avoid any aged food that might contain tyramine. This includes most cheeses (esp. cheddar) (some cheeses are safe, I just don't like cheese, so I haven't bothered to find out. They should be on the list)
Soy sauce is very bad, so are aged meats like bacon and sausage.
Any drugs containing or resembling ephedrine (like cold medicines) need to be avoided, along with prescription stimulants. SSRI's cannot be combined with MAOI's.
Tap and foreign beers can be a problem, too.
Oddly, Italian broad beans are bad because they contain too much dopamine.Cottage cheese, yoghurt, and sour cream are fine.
Generally if you like freshly cooked foods like beef, fish, chicken, and vegetables and fruit (except Italian broad beans) and avoid strange aged sauces you will be able to eat very well (and healthily).
If you do eat a problem food (can happen by mistake!) you may have a hypertensive crises: very high bp ~200/~90 or more, accompanied with a strange throbbing headache. If this happens, you should not panic, but just get medical treatment as quickly as possible.
Your doctor should make arrangements with a local doctor's office and the ER to have your chart and phentolamine (the best drug for returning your bp to normal) available, so you can just walk in and get the necessary injection.
*
*
*
*
Abilify tales of horror...Well, I shouldn't really talk about Abilify...
Since some people have had great responses to it.Personally, I took a pill on Friday night, and Saturday I felt like a zombie. I felt really horrible, kept winding up back in bed, couldn't think, and couldn't really move very well. I kept telling myself it would wear off, but I felt almost as bad on Sunday (I had only taken the Fri. pill). I was so mad I wanted to cry--but I couldn't cry, or even FEEL like I wanted to cry (that's scary!). I managed to go out to my Aunt's birthday party, but I was in a complete fog. My Monday I still felt messed up, but the drug was finally wearing off, and it wasn't till Tuesday I felt normal again.
I think I saw my doc that day or the next, and that was when we established that AP's were out for good!
He's a nice guy, though, I can remember how excited he was on Friday: "Harry! This is the newest kind of antipsychotic." (me thinking: new?! AP? blah!) "It should have mood-elevating properties. And it ISN'T a dopamine antagonist, but a partial agonist, so it actually raises dopamine levels if they are too low!" (me thinking: sounds fishy, but hey, what the heck? Maybe it will work!)
Posted by harryp on May 11, 2004, at 2:57:41
In reply to Re: Please help me understand: harryp, posted by kittencat on May 10, 2004, at 21:09:54
The studies that exist seem to indicate that MAOI's are the most broadly effective AD's around, and they have a good side effect profile (esp. Parnate--which may have the best SE profile of any AD).
The "fly in the ointment" is the risk of hypertensive crisis. There have been only a few cases where an untreated crisis caused a stroke or death, but that's enough to make doctors terrified of prescibing them.
Psychiatrists loved the SSRI's because they could be prescribed like candy, with almost no liablity concerns. It's very hard to kill yourself with an SSRI!
Part of the problem with MAOI's is that psychiatrists tend not to trust their patients, and they are afraid that their pt. will not pay attention to diet, have a crisis and just take aspirin for it, and possibly get a stroke.
In practice, avoiding the problem foods and drugs is not hard, and if you get prompt treatment for a hypertensive crisis it will not do you any harm.
The main problem is that you have to be careful when traveling. Carrying a copy of your medical chart with instructions from your doctor wouldn't be a bad idea, because many ER staff haven't seen a MAOI-hypertensive crises before, and may have trouble figuring out what's going on.
Posted by cybercafe on May 11, 2004, at 9:01:26
In reply to Why MAOI's rarely prescribed » kittencat, posted by harryp on May 11, 2004, at 2:57:41
> The studies that exist seem to indicate that MAOI's are the most broadly effective AD's around, and they have a good side effect profile (esp. Parnate--which may have the best SE profile of any AD).
>
> The "fly in the ointment" is the risk of hypertensive crisis. There have been only a few cases where an untreated crisis caused a stroke or death, but that's enough to make doctors terrified of prescibing them.
>
> Psychiatrists loved the SSRI's because they could be prescribed like candy, with almost no liablity concerns. It's very hard to kill yourself with an SSRI!
>
> Part of the problem with MAOI's is that psychiatrists tend not to trust their patients, and they are afraid that their pt. will not pay attention to diet, have a crisis and just take aspirin for it, and possibly get a stroke.
>
> In practice, avoiding the problem foods and drugs is not hard, and if you get prompt treatment for a hypertensive crisis it will not do you any harm.
>
> The main problem is that you have to be careful when traveling. Carrying a copy of your medical chart with instructions from your doctor wouldn't be a bad idea, because many ER staff haven't seen a MAOI-hypertensive crises before, and may have trouble figuring out what's going on.i went to the states to pick up some abilify.... it's been a wonder drug for me... and apparently the states has no walkin clinics for family doctors/general practictioners like we do in canada... but i did manage to find a special mental health walk in clinic..... so i asked them for a perscription for abilify since i saw them once before a year ago and they said it would be okay... they said no.... i said fine, i'll see a doctor and they can evaluate me.... and they gave me some long story about how you have to pay to $300 to see a counsellor and doctor every 2 weeks if you want medication...
so i just told them i would wait for my antipsychotic to run out, then i would come back when i'm in a manic rage and they could deal with me then :)
i ended up seeing a doctor, and had no problem getting abilify.. but was told how wrong it was that i was taking parnate .. no one takes that anymore apparently... my response was to just stare at her like she was a retard... though i'm thinking an alternative reply would have been to say .. "and in the UK they perscribe antipsychotics rather than benzos for anxiety but i don't think either country has psychiatrists who know what they are doing" ....
Posted by kittencat on May 11, 2004, at 11:12:56
In reply to Re: Why MAOI's rarely prescribed, posted by cybercafe on May 11, 2004, at 9:01:26
I love all your posts! Thanks for the humor, guys...it really helps. And I feel guilty that my doctor just blithely handed me $450 worth of Abilify, & I'm considering throwing it out.
The diet sounds fine for me for an MAOI...I don't eat or drink any of those things, normally.
By the way, my doctor's response was similar, after I burst into tears when he told me I needed Zyprexa. "KittenCat!" (ok, ok, I know). "I think we may be on to something here!! Try these pills...take 15 mg a day...it will stop your bipolar!" "But doctor, I'm not bipolar...I'm just really, really depressed...I don't think I'm psychotic...plus, I'm a ballerina & can barely get off the couch. I need to be a million pounds underweight...won't these make me gain weight??" "Well, just give 'em a go and see...then we'll go from there". Awesome. So when I'm fatter than ever & puking my guts out every day, in between my four hour medication induced naps, will that be enough to convince him I don't think this is right??
Bugger. Well, today is fourth day on 3.75mg Abilify. So far I don't feel abilified to do anything except sleep, but I have committed to one week. Or two. Not sure.
You guys are great! Thanks...
Posted by kittencat on May 11, 2004, at 11:31:16
In reply to Re: Abilify and MAOIs, posted by kittencat on May 11, 2004, at 11:12:56
By the way, I never did get a response to this. What do people think??
"When prescribed for a schizophrenic (Abilify), what symptoms does it alleviate? Is anything else prescribed in conjunction, or is that it? For example, most posters have stated that it is outstanding in terms of being an energizing, motivating drug. Is that why it is prescribed to schizophrenics, to enable social contact? Or does it truly help to eradicate the psychosis?"
Posted by harryp on May 11, 2004, at 13:09:49
In reply to Re: Abilify, posted by kittencat on May 11, 2004, at 11:31:16
I have heard from people with schizophrenia that Abilify has been great for them.
There are different "schizophrenic" symptoms. The people you meet or talk to and seem quite normal generally suffer from positive symptoms (hallucinations, paranoia, delusions) that make it impossible to function. AP's like Abilify help "turn off" or quiet these symptoms so such a person has a chance to function normally.
Abilify (and Geoden, it seems) are unusally good for controlling those symptoms without making the patient too numb or sleepy to enjoy the benefits.
(In the "bad old days" which I'm sorry to say aren't over yet, even high-functioning people with schizophrenia were just doped up with AP's, and weren't able to do much of anything but watch TV and eat.)
People with predominantly negative symptoms i.e "catatonic" (just aren't there) seem to have a much poorer prognosis.
The positive symptoms of schizophrenia sometimes remit with age (take John Nash, for example). I think the best thing for someone with schizophrenia is to take enough meds to control the symptoms (but make sure not to be overmedicated) and be involved as much as possible in life.
Good experiences and relationships seem to encourage the brain to at least partially heal itself--in both schizophrenia and depression, IMHO.
Posted by Questionmark on May 11, 2004, at 15:24:32
In reply to Re: Why MAOI's rarely prescribed, posted by cybercafe on May 11, 2004, at 9:01:26
harryp said:
> > The studies that exist seem to indicate that MAOI's are the most broadly effective AD's around, and they have a good side effect profile (esp. Parnate--which may have the best SE profile of any AD).
> >
> > The "fly in the ointment" is the risk of hypertensive crisis. There have been only a few cases where an untreated crisis caused a stroke or death, but that's enough to make doctors terrified of prescibing them.
> >
> > Psychiatrists loved the SSRI's because they could be prescribed like candy, with almost no liablity concerns. It's very hard to kill yourself with an SSRI!
> >
> > Part of the problem with MAOI's is that psychiatrists tend not to trust their patients, and they are afraid that their pt. will not pay attention to diet, have a crisis and just take aspirin for it, and possibly get a stroke.
> >
> > In practice, avoiding the problem foods and drugs is not hard, and if you get prompt treatment for a hypertensive crisis it will not do you any harm.
> >
> > The main problem is that you have to be careful when traveling. Carrying a copy of your medical chart with instructions from your doctor wouldn't be a bad idea, because many ER staff haven't seen a MAOI-hypertensive crises before, and may have trouble figuring out what's going on.Those are such great points.
Cybercafe said:
> i went to the states to pick up some abilify.... it's been a wonder drug for me... and apparently the states has no walkin clinics for family doctors/general practictioners like we do in canada... but i did manage to find a special mental health walk in clinic..... so i asked them for a perscription for abilify since i saw them once before a year ago and they said it would be okay... they said no.... i said fine, i'll see a doctor and they can evaluate me.... and they gave me some long story about how you have to pay to $300 to see a counsellor and doctor every 2 weeks if you want medication...
>
> so i just told them i would wait for my antipsychotic to run out, then i would come back when i'm in a manic rage and they could deal with me then :)
>
> i ended up seeing a doctor, and had no problem getting abilify.. but was told how wrong it was that i was taking parnate .. no one takes that anymore apparently... my response was to just stare at her like she was a retard... though i'm thinking an alternative reply would have been to say .. "and in the UK they perscribe antipsychotics rather than benzos for anxiety but i don't think either country has psychiatrists who know what they are doing" ....So true!
And when are psychiatrists going to learn that what is popular and common is NOT necessarily right and best!!! Yeah, lobotomies, excessive use of ECT, and horribly high-dose use of typical antipsychotics were once used all the time this last century, and now we (or anyone with any sense, at least) look on that with disgust and incomprehension. So why do psychiatrists think that all of toDAY's most popular treatments are fine/right/best?!!!!!!!!!!!! IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry. It just infuriates me beyond expression to hear how so often psychiatrists (those who are suppOSEd to be some of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to treating mental disorders with medications) will refuse to prescribe an MAOI or think it's senseless to do so and yet they will presribe atypical antipsychotics (usually in too high a dose as well, esp.ly since in my opinion those w/out a psychotic disorder require much less AP even if it would help them) to their patients for anything and everything. i just want to round them all up in a gigantic room and scream logical truths at them from the bottom of my lungs.
Ah, sorry again.
KittenCat said:
"I love all your posts! Thanks for the humor, guys...it really helps. And I feel guilty that my doctor just blithely handed me $450 worth of Abilify, & I'm considering throwing it out."Don't throw it out. If you can't at least give it back to your dr (which is probably the case) then you should at least save it. You might find someone you know who takes Abilify and you could sell or give it to them. Er, no, i didn't say that. But yeah, save it just in case. You never know if it might come in handy somehow. (And that's alotta money to ditch).
"The diet sounds fine for me for an MAOI...I don't eat or drink any of those things, normally.
By the way, my doctor's response was similar, after I burst into tears when he told me I needed Zyprexa. "KittenCat!" (ok, ok, I know). "I think we may be on to something here!! Try these pills...take 15 mg a day...it will stop your bipolar!" "But doctor, I'm not bipolar...I'm just really, really depressed...I don't think I'm psychotic...plus, I'm a ballerina & can barely get off the couch. I need to be a million pounds underweight...won't these make me gain weight??" "Well, just give 'em a go and see...then we'll go from there". Awesome. So when I'm fatter than ever & puking my guts out every day, in between my four hour medication induced naps, will that be enough to convince him I don't think this is right??"That story infuriates and enrages me more than i could even begin to explain. How STUPID must your doctor be to prescribe you 15mg Zyprexa deSPITE everything you said to him/her? AH!!! Don't take it. Seriously. If you're not bipolar or schizo-anything or psychotic, don't freaking take it. It's not worth. Why waste your time with something that will inevitably do nothing but make you feel like crap for various reasons? i told my good (OCD and neurotic) friend this when he was seeing a moron of a psychiatrist that i used to see and he kept prescribing him antipsychotic after antipsychotic. Then my friend would go back to him and complain about how bad he was feeling, and the dr would either just lower the dose, switch to another AP, or tell him that it's not going to work if he doesn't have patience and give it an adequate chance (and this is all while he is feeling like absolute S**T from these drugs!!!)!. He went from Zyprexa to Risperdal to Abilify, and THEN, to the typical antipsychotic Loxapine, which he likened to torture. During this time, the only other med changes that occurred were taking him off Paxil near the beginning (which another stupid dr had prescribed him), adding low dose Klonopin at his request (as i suggested), and, when he complained about how bad he was feeling and how lethargic he was, and how he wanted to just try Klonopin for a little while, the stupid idiot took him OFF Klonopin and kept him ON Risperdal!!
Take a stand people! You are the patient and the client; you are paying the money; YOU are the one taking the DRUGS-- do not allow them to prescribe you something that you are adamantly (and knowledgeably) against. Ask for what you really think is necessary (such as quitting an AP or what have you) and do not back down. Tell them to just listen to you for a minute, then tell them the reasons for why you believe what you believe, and then if they are still arrogantly and ignorantly stubborn, then tell them that if they continue to act so foolishly (or whatever) then you will look for treatment elsewhere-- in as kindly but assertive manner as possible. Okay, i know how unrealistic this is considering that good doctors are hard to come by and you have to wait so long to even get another appointment with a different one, but still, stand up for your rights.
i WISH SO DESPERATELY THAT EVERY PSYCHIATRIST WOULD HAVE TO TRY BEING ON A DRUG THAT DID NOT MESH WELL WITH THEIR CHEMISTRIES AND THEREFORE GAVE THEM HORRIBLE SIDE EFFECTS-- ANY KIND OF PSYCHIATRIC DRUG THAT IS PARTICULARLY UNSUITABLE FOR EACH OF THEM-- AND THEN BE TOLD THAT THEY HAD TO STAY ON IT FOR A MONTH OR SO LONGER TO SEE IF IT EVENTUALLY STARTS TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER. i think the compassion and intelligent decision-making of psychiatrists would then be increased tremendously.
Goodness. i've wasted another half-hour of my life on another fruitless rant.
"Bugger. Well, today is fourth day on 3.75mg Abilify. So far I don't feel abilified to do anything except sleep, but I have committed to one week. Or two. Not sure.
You guys are great! Thanks..."Oh, well at least you're off Zyprexa now. 3.75mg is a pretty low dose too. i've heard mostly good things about very low dose Abilify though. i hope it works out for you.
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