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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Viridis on December 6, 2003, at 0:41:36
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 11:38:41
Hi Moose,
Thanks for the feedback and concern. When I said "immediate", I was referring to Xanax, rather carelessly. What I meant was that my pdoc was somewhat concerned about my tolerance to it, but not overly worried because my use is so infrequent. So, he said that if I found myself needing it regularly at increased doses, he'd insist that I stop using it.
He's well aware of the risks of sudden benzo discontinuation, so I'm quite sure that, if I were to become dependent on Xanax, we'd work out a gradual discontinuation schedule. The risk of this seems very low anyway, given my and his awareness of what's going on, but he certainly wouldn't pull a patient off a benzo cold-turkey. After all, he's told me several times that benzos are not drugs that you can just stop suddenly if you've been using them for very long on a regular basis.
The bottom line is that Klonopin seems very safe (for me, anyway) and I have no plans to stop taking it any time soon. If I ever do, it will be gradual. Xanax works extremely well and I have no trouble controlling its use, so at this point stopping it wouldn't be a problem -- I can easily go without it for weeks at a time. But I'd rather have it available for those times when I do need it, and my pdoc is comfortable with this, as long as I don't find myself "needing" more and more on a regular basis.
Posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 0:43:33
In reply to Re: please be civil » maxx44, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2003, at 3:38:04
i'll watch myself---i am bipolar---stable now, if anything, over-worked for no pay. my choice. when, and if mania hits me, you'll notice fast---block me fast. i really hate seeing a 'wild' post that goes to me. i must remember this is a public board. the xanax thing took on a life of its own---my interest is the new thread i started on the newsweek article re. madness regarding neuro-pathogens. i put it in the 'alternative treatments' slot--but it's a pure md. matter. perhaps it should be re-directed? regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 1:28:04
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by loni on December 6, 2003, at 0:10:56
thank you loni---this old ship can use some confirmation. perhaps appreciation---most don't know 'They' are the 'lab-rats' of modern drug cos. or that there are good drs. and bad. we're trained to trust. i was 21 when i went 48 hours in motorcycle-racing boots, wet--my left leg was discolored by the boot dye, and clearly swollen, awful looking. 1st dr. i saw? he said 'gangrene' and was having his nurse set up an immediate removal of my lower left leg. i've tons of allergies. i told the 'unmentionable'as to what i thought of him and walked. the next dr. listened, looked, said 'allergy'--gave the area a big shot of some anti-histamine---next morning, normal leg. close call. that's why i 'push' 'talk-therapy first'---the wrong drug won't make your leg fall off---but for tens of millions, i feel many would make that trade vs. what may be very close to at least partial chemical lobotomy. your wise cynicism and appropriate rebelliousness influenced this post. still got my leg. but dopamine factory? joy? marketing skills? just have to hope they return---the brain is robust. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 2:57:56
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 3:32:17
this goes to ethics. both mills' 'greatest good for the greatest number' and kant's 'categorical imperative'---kant means 'whould you have your decision made a law of nature?' you are 1, even if not an addict, but the accidental victims demonstrably outnumber you enormously. your ethical issue is simple---do you personally want to make it a 'law of nature' that the interest of 1 supercede that of the many? very human, very tobacco, very drug dealer, very auto maker---but i think you may see kant's point. would you like living at the mercy of 1 person? 9 of 10 benzo addicts, my estimate, should never been scripted long-term. until you've experienced the absolutely common withdrawal effects, finding yourself psyhchotic for the 1st time in life, i must cosider your position erudite. and hope it stays at that. if it quits working, or you feel adverse effects and want off---use the dr. ashton protocol. avoid the madness of rapid withdrawal. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 22:33:43
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 3:32:17
to me, the 'keyword' of your dr. w/klonopin clients is 'indefinently'---with daily use, you will usually see no problems, save perhaps 'blunting' and in the case of my second ex, depression. it's when the drug is suddenly stopped big trouble shows up. when klonopin 'arrived', as i've said, it became the 'darling-drug' for bipolars and panic clients. as you have apparenty not experienced sudden withdrawal from klonopin, nor apparently your dr., i may understand your 'beef' with dr. ashton's 'taper-model'. but the world agrees--it's, so far, the only safe way out for long-term users. xanax produces euphoria, which quickly nails many, as heroin, or crack. and that's why your dr. says he'd cut you off at signs of 'abuse'. smart move, but he's missed the fact that klonopin sudden withdrawal seems to produce the same horrific effect as xanax sudden cessation, just days later. i'm not beating a dead horse. but my arms are tired. until you encounter full benzo withdrawal, do you have the experience to predict? to have any idea as to its severity? unlikely, as that deal is unique to direct experience. nothing i may say will prepare anyone for such. but someday, you may wish to put klonopin and xanax aside---the ashton paradigm will be your best ally.
Posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 23:24:29
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dosage? » maxx44, posted by KimberlyDi on December 2, 2003, at 13:28:15
well, boy howdy, and well, well, well---'suicidal' wd effects from an AD? i've seen that, but only small scale from the old tcas/maois. i'm very surprised at the # of effexor wd posts that i've seen, several sound identical to long-term benzo use, or recovery from atypical neuroleptic syndrome---major issues. the 'fall-out' often irreversibe. not having used it, save 2 weeks, i'm relying on posts, as from loni, and what i see is mixed. the 'i love effexor' posts look near euphoric. makes me wonder, as i watched my 'normal' cousin become truly manic on zoloft, myself be manic at high tca AD doses, i wonder if the effexor lovers haven't simply become manic or hypomanic? don't know. they would feel great, but judgement ability? gone and went. unless you get a stable hypomanic result. that=$$$ in those with history of such. history is important.
Posted by Viridis on December 7, 2003, at 1:46:36
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 22:33:43
Maxx,
I'm confused -- what I said was that my doctor warned me that all benzos (including Klonopin) should NOT be discontinued suddenly, and that gradual withdrawal is always necessary after any substantial period of use. He has had many patients on Klonopin long-term, and has also supervised numerous, very slow withdrawals from this drug (usually due to the patient's desire to stop use). He says these generally work out fine , as long as the taper is gentle and tailored to the patient (although the original anxiety state is likely to return, no better or worse, unless another med like an SSRI proves effective). He is more concerned about Xanax than Klonopin because in his experience, people are more likely to have difficulty with withdrawal, so he monitors its use especially closely and tries to avoid regular use of Xanax in the first place.
He told me all of this from day one, so I can hardly call him irresponsible, even if I do wind up having problems should I decide to go off these meds.
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 2:03:01
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 7, 2003, at 1:46:36
no arguement here---good dr., if you look carefully at your prior posts you'll notice how anyone may have been confused. this, for me, is you're 1st--'just plain makes sense post'. thank you.
Posted by AnneL on December 7, 2003, at 15:25:54
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 2:03:01
> no arguement here---good dr.,
"if you look carefully at your prior posts you'll notice how anyone may have been confused".
Maxx -
Please do not generalize or make statements that are global in an attempt to back up your argument.
I have been following your multiple postings regarding Xanax, et al., and your disagreement with Viridis. I for one am not confused over anything concerning the statements made by Viridis
regarding the use of Xanax/Klonopin. This is truly a decision best made between doctor and patient. I understand that your experience has made you jaded toward benzos. Please let others express their own opinions and experiences. We can only truly learn through our own experiences.
Best wishes to you. . . Anne :)
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 16:32:33
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by AnneL on December 7, 2003, at 15:25:54
you mistake my intent, perhaps---long-term studies clearly show Any long-term user will suffer horrific withdrawal if not tapered. you may note 'lethality possibility upon sudden cessation', as now warned in the lit. only those millions who have 'experienced' the event are qualified to report back on it. no generalization at all. this drug family is like no other. my intent is to protect naive users, and based on fact and experience. search the net. see for yourself. i've indicated the value of benzos both for short medical procedures (colonoscopy), and very infrequent anxiety use, or for daily use by 'terminal' patients, or those with rare internal damage. if i seem strident, well, maybe.
but consider this---now any dr. scripting benzos daily, long-term? unless they are doing so for the aforementioned reasons, if caught, they will lose their liscense to practice. why? regards
Posted by camel on December 7, 2003, at 19:13:44
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dosage?, posted by maxx44 on December 6, 2003, at 23:24:29
Maxx...I can tell you I am NOT manic. Your assumption that because we are having positive results from Effexor relates to mania is a little presumptuous. As we ALL know...each person reacts differently to each med. Please don't catagorize us because we are having success. I am starting to think your posts are just a little bit of a downer! I am not belittling your experiences only that you seem to dwell on the negative.
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 20:00:50
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by camel on December 7, 2003, at 19:13:44
what you read is your choice, sir. correct? i looked at the one you refer to. i made no assumptions---rather, i said i was 'wondering'---hardly an assumption. an area of inquiry. i would encourage anyone to avoid unfounded negatives. on the other hand, being a floridian, and knowing alligators from youth, i would advise anyone not to walk their dog near a lake at night. that may appear negative, but is actually positive, helpfull observation based on experience. i would say if my posts effect your affect negatively--change the channel. right?
Posted by camel on December 7, 2003, at 20:07:45
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 20:00:50
First of all Maxx...as for your "assuming"...I am NOT a man..I am a full blooded AMERICAN woman...so I guess you did make an assumption. As for changing the channel...seems to me when you recieve negative feedback from your posts you immediately go on the offensive.....hence one poster has already been blocked for 6 weeks.....maybe you should consider being a little less combative and a little more helpful and supportive. Or as you so aptly put it...change the channel!
Posted by TomV on December 7, 2003, at 21:57:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 16:32:33
> you mistake my intent, perhaps---long-term studies clearly show Any long-term user will suffer horrific withdrawal if not tapered. you may note 'lethality possibility upon sudden cessation', as now warned in the lit. only those millions who have 'experienced' the event are qualified to report back on it. no generalization at all. this drug family is like no other. my intent is to protect naive users, and based on fact and experience. search the net. see for yourself. i've indicated the value of benzos both for short medical procedures (colonoscopy), and very infrequent anxiety use, or for daily use by 'terminal' patients, or those with rare internal damage. if i seem strident, well, maybe.
> but consider this---now any dr. scripting benzos daily, long-term? unless they are doing so for the aforementioned reasons, if caught, they will lose their liscense to practice. why? regardsMy Pdoc has been subscribing xanax long-term for me... and why?? Xanax, quite simply, is the only drug that's ever worked 100% of the time for me. I suffer from PTSD, depression and transient anxiety.I've practically tried every newer AD, a lot of second generation ADs, numerous Benzos, a few mood stabilizers, SAMe, St Johns wort, and the kitchen sink!
The only AD that's ever been effective for me is Remeron, and that eventually pooped out to 50% efficacy. When I take xanax (and believe me, I know all about the long term risk with Benzos) I usually begin to feel a hell of lot better than I did an hour before! It takes 1-2 mgs to do the trick. But later in the day I start to "come down" from the med. For me, the xanax definitely works like an illicit drug, where I get a natural like feeling, like I'm "getting high", where my mood lifts. So in my book that's not too bad. The drug is legal. I'm not using illegal drugs or self medicating with booze or pot, or you name it.
But tell me this... why do I feel so guilty about taking it? I'm already thinking about talking to my Pdoc about Xanax XR.
Tom
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 22:04:17
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by camel on December 7, 2003, at 20:07:45
you know, i almost put a question mark behind 'sir'---but not knowing, used the traditional. i now feel the parenthetical (?) would have angered you equally, in view of how you may possibly Blame me for dr. bob's considered action in blocking a member. i'm not dr. bob---he decides. not me. he's sent a couple shots across my bow, when appropriate. i saw his point. perhaps you should ask him to review my posts to you? regards
Posted by LibraTilted on December 7, 2003, at 22:18:40
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 22:04:17
greetings everyone. I just started Effexor XR daily. Felt like a zombie the first day. The second day was better. Today is now the fourth day. I feel better and not so much like a zombie. I can't stand the dry mouth though.
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 22:51:45
In reply to Xanax : the ONLY med that's 100% effective for me, posted by TomV on December 7, 2003, at 21:57:35
i wish i knew your age, dose, term of use. xanax makes people feel great, unlike any benzo i've used. it's short half-life will bop you in hours vs. librium or valium---long half-life---they bop you next day or week. i don't think you're feeling guilt---rather apprehension. well felt. i suspect you smell trouble from benzos---please, do not suddenly stop. after 4 years of librium i moved from fla. to texas. walgreens would not provide fla. approved refills. i had no problem on refills visiting family in arizona or cal. but in texas, i had to get a new script from a texas dr. while waiting for that appointment, i said, 'bs--who needs it? had no panic for years, so i just quit. ticket to hell. fast track. by day 8 i voluntarilly walked into an er. visit benzos.org.uk---you'll maybe understand. 'guilt' has its purpose, i don't don't feel you warrant that. apprehension over this? unless you dr. has one heck of a reason for getting you here---there lies 'guilt'. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 23:07:28
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos » maxx44, posted by LibraTilted on December 7, 2003, at 22:18:40
dry-mouth is common. what is not is a dr. advising AD clients about the problems. nightly salivation is what protects your teeth. they sell toothpaste in pharmacies to protect from that. only recently have i seen lit advising drs. on this. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 8, 2003, at 0:03:08
In reply to Xanax : the ONLY med that's 100% effective for me, posted by TomV on December 7, 2003, at 21:57:35
you say you are 'familiar with long-term problems'. from experience or reading and imagination? that doesn't work with these drugs, they are not like anything you've probably seen. although legal, long-term scripting, with rare exceptions, no longer is. i feel your feeling fear, not guilt. and having persnoal experience with what a xanax user faces upon withdrawal? i'd see my dr. on tapering-off slowly. zanax,in particular, effects DHEA and other hormones, so perhaps you should have a full-physical with , testosterone, estrogen, estradiol levels included in the standard blood-work. sometimes, depression/aniety are related to hormonal imbalance. as xanax boosts cetain hormones, it may mask another problem, best find out. dont'ya think? clear sailing....
Posted by AnneL on December 8, 2003, at 0:51:53
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 16:32:33
. . ."you mistake my intent, perhaps . . ."
". . . only those millions who have 'experienced' the event are qualified to report back on it. no generalization at all."Perhaps, I have mistaken your intent. I assume your intent is honorable and that you would like others to avoid the physical/psychological symptoms of longterm benzo withdrawal. If this is not your intent, please advise. It is very possible that your message has been heard loud and clear. Do you feel that you have not been heard or understood? I hear that you don't like the way benzos are prescribed for longterm use and are against this practice. I hear that you have gone through withdrawal. Is there something I am missing?
Posted by maxx44 on December 8, 2003, at 2:10:09
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by AnneL on December 8, 2003, at 0:51:53
correct---if i may save one person from inappropriate long-term benzo use, i will try. if i suceed they'll never even know. so i expect no accolades. if i fail, they will hopefully join me and benzos.org.uk, and many others against a plague of drugs that make opiates, ADs, alcohol, cigs---makes them look near silly. you talk long term moderate or high-dose benzodiazapine use? Nothing may recover the real you, save a long, often terrifying and dangerous taper-down. have you met a drug requiring 6-12 month's taper, and then perhaps a year later being hit again with full withdrawal? a withdrawal where you may not just go bonkers, thinking about shooting -up the place--you may do it---lawyers have sites on this. when it hit me, after a near year's taper and 'free' for 4 months---i Had to get to the er. a shot of ativan, 30 minutes later? normal. and millions have the same sad story---i want to protect you, anyone from that. as the net documentation is there, find for yourself, if print may save you---i will use it. what would you do? benzos have become a major global issue. why? deservedly. it's the same problem as the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. can my discripton of a rainbow ever work? i pray it may.
Posted by maxx44 on December 8, 2003, at 2:57:22
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by camel on December 7, 2003, at 20:07:45
you know, if you actually read my post, which was dead-on-accutate, and the bizarre, disjointed responce that got the poster blocked---what say you then? and i am infintely curious about how you would assign 'blame' to me? are you saying my response 'triggered' a victim to 'blockable' post? that would concern me. not my intent. there are many boards less 'clinical' than here. regards
Posted by Viridis on December 8, 2003, at 5:19:23
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 8, 2003, at 2:10:09
Maxx,
Are you OK? No insult intended, I just sense a certain manic trend here, and maybe you need a bit of help right now. People on this board are very supportive, and I'm guessing you have doctor you could call too. People post here for good reasons, and sometimes they're looking for help but don't quite realize it at the time.
If I'm off-base I hope you don't take offense -- it's just an intuitive thing.
Viridis
Posted by camel on December 8, 2003, at 7:31:37
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by maxx44 on December 7, 2003, at 22:04:17
Maxx......I am not trying to "fight" with you...only putting in my "2 cents" worth....and in my opinion your posts....while informative....do have a tendency to be a bit on the "negative" side.....which for people suffering from depression.....is a bit of a downer!
Posted by maxx44 on December 8, 2003, at 13:53:49
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dos, posted by camel on December 8, 2003, at 7:31:37
being depressed myself, i have my share of negativity. try to keep it out of posts. but i do concentrate on what i see as potential problems from experience of myself and others with meds. when someone's happy, i'm glad for them. regards
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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