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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dalilah on November 14, 2003, at 16:16:05
In reply to Lamictal right for me?, posted by Budgie on November 14, 2003, at 13:37:20
Hi Budgie,
I was on Lithium and it helped with keeping my mania down and seemed to just help me in general, think clearer etc. But that was not enough. I started Lamictal for depression and it didn't start to work til 200mg. I, however, am not on an MAOI. Antidepressants never work for me. They make me manic or just do nothing at all, except give me major side effects.
So for me Lithium and Lamictal seems to be the answer (as of now?) And as I said Lithium for mania, Lam for depression, but together they work better than alone. For example I tried Lam alone in the past and it did nothing.
Differnt for everyone....
-Dalilah
> Since this seems to be the Lamictal crowd, I'll ask my question up here:
>
> Lamictal or Lithium for (most likely) BP 2?
>
> I'm taking Parnate (an MAOI) currently for the depression.
>
> The "wild" times were previously characterized by anxiety, tension, and irritablity. Now, I'm on Klonopin temporarily, and in my highs I'm worry-free and seem to have hit my creative, energizing stride.
>
> Please, any thoughts? (Especially re the MAOI combo).
>
> Many thanks,
> Budgie
Posted by fluffy on November 14, 2003, at 16:52:25
In reply to Not doing too well :-( » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 15:08:37
Katia!!!
> Good to hear you back Barb!
> If Ambien is not a tranquilizer, what is it? A sleep aid? then what are sleep aids? How do they differ?***I'm not sure, but I think Ambien is similar to a benzo. Most "sleep aids" are benzos, besides Benadryl, trazodone, melatonin.
Or maybe I just need to put a gun to my head and end this miserable incompetent existence????
Katia--You know that's not the answer, but I totally know the feeling. You are exhausted with the cycling and endless searching and not feeling well. Most of us know about this. Seriously, if you are thinking about this too much, CALL THE DOCTOR. Or if you feel you might be in danger, then GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM. I seriously pondered this a month ago when I was ruminating about suicide badly. I knew I didn't want to do it, but I wanted OUT. And I hesitated, but I called my pdoc, and we scheduled an emergency appt.
> How did that store manager know about your depression? Did you tell him in confidence, or did he just pick up instantly what it was? You know when you meet people like that, it makes things sooo much easier.
***Have you considered joining a support group? I've thought about it, but I have a long time friend who got diagnosed a couple of years before me. And what do you know??? I go diagnosed soon after. She has been indisposable to me b/c of her understanding. These people are hard to find. Truth be told, most people (even good friends) cannot understand what it's like to be bipolar or clinically depressed. Friends try the best they can to understand, and sometimes they feel that boiling what you feel down to what other people feel would make you feel less awkward and isolated. But it can make you feel misunderstood, and these statements can backfire.
> Thank god, I had that appt. with the psychic. If she hadn't told me that until January will be the hardest (chipping old paint of my wall), getting out of the woods, I don't know if I could hang on without that faith. I'm so tired. and I tell you, quitting drinking has made NOTHING better. I can't believe I haven't drunk yet.
> I'm at 100mg of Lam. felt better for a few days and am crashing again. Just want a glass of wine to even this mixed state (best I can describe it) out. no, make that a bottle with a couple cigs.**Could you deal with just a pack of cigarettes? It sounds like a weird suggestion, but I know that for me, my smoking habit has "saved" me, for lack of nothing else to do but pace. When I feel bad, I just smoke, smoke, smoke. I know it's a bad habit, but boy--if you ever go to an AA meeting, those people are CHAIN SMOKERS. It's the lesser of two evils.
Drinking is EVIL when you're depressed---EVIL!!!> Does it ever get better? I'm sorry but it feels like everyone on this board is continually struggling and cycling and not remaining stable. most of all me. I need to have hope and hear success stories.
***Katia--I'm a success story, and not very long ago, I was in a similar boat as yours. It took a very long time, but I've finally found equilibrium. Most of the people on this board are ON this board because they are UNHAPPY with their drug combos and/or diagnosis. They are searching just like you to find answers. Finding the success stories may seem daunting, but they are out there, and they just aren't posting to boards like this per se. Again, I think a support group would be a good place to find these people who understand, and who have fought through this. I'm thinking of finding one soon.
> Maybe I'll start the Lithium Orotate first. You didn't have good success on that did you? I can get it cheaply I think. I'll look up the prices later. Maybe Neuronto., Lam. and Lithium will be the combo for me? god, I wish someone would just DO something with this blackeyed carcass. I'm sick of taking the lead. I look like hell, like I haven't slept in years, but I have.
***I don't REALLY know about this Lithium orotate business, but it seems to be a racket. I almost get angry about the ads, as they seem to be preying on people who are desperate to take ANYTHING besides REAL LITHIUM. It's not really Lithium...there's just a smidge in it. I would really try to give the REAL DEAL lithium a go first before you sink your hard-earned money into alternative treatments. It's tried and true. I don't know your situation exactly, but for most people, Lamictal as a sole agent is only partially effective. Why not try Lithium+Lamictal? Or Trileptal+Lamictal?
> I'm not in a good space. Sorry for the rant and thanks for hearing it.
> katia***Sweetie, we've all been there. Rant anytime. You can count on me to be here, okay? I care about you. Hang on tight...
lots and lots of hugs...
Katy
Posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 17:12:50
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-(, posted by fluffy on November 14, 2003, at 16:52:25
Hi Katy,
Thanks for the support. I NEED it right now. I'm not in that exhausted depressed phase, but the crying bouts, irritability, ragey, engerized mixed state. And boy oh boy, the only cure for that is a glass of vino. I'm so tempted b/c no doctor has been able to give me what that has given me. Cigs on their own taste yukky. it's after a glass of wine that the potent synergy of cigs + wine work wonders. However, on the flip side (apart from obvious reasons) it's a dangerous time to drink too. Because paradoxically it helps, but also fuels the energy and I go wild.> Or maybe I just need to put a gun to my head and end this miserable incompetent existence????
>
> Katia--You know that's not the answer, but I totally know the feeling. You are exhausted with the cycling and endless searching and not feeling well. Most of us know about this. Seriously, if you are thinking about this too much, CALL THE DOCTOR. Or if you feel you might be in danger, then GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM. I seriously pondered this a month ago when I was ruminating about suicide badly. I knew I didn't want to do it, but I wanted OUT. And I hesitated, but I called my pdoc, and we scheduled an emergency appt.**I don't think I'll do it. I'd drink first you know. You know the feeling when you're so out of control with agitation and irritability and crying jags - it's like a torando in your head that personal actions sometimes are out of your control. I hate those moments most of all and they are the most dangerous. But I've made a pact with myself. Before suicide, I'll try alcohol again. It sounds wierd, but thank god for substances like wine, b/c sometimes it is a saviour.
>> Have you considered joining a support group? I've thought about it, but I have a long time friend who got diagnosed a couple of years before me. And what do you know??? I go diagnosed soon after. She has been indisposable to me b/c of her understanding. These people are hard to find. Truth be told, most people (even good friends) cannot understand what it's like to be bipolar or clinically depressed. Friends try the best they can to understand, and sometimes they feel that boiling what you feel down to what other people feel would make you feel less awkward and isolated. But it can make you feel misunderstood, and these statements can backfire.
I went to a bipolar support group ONE time a month ago and it was a waste of time. Only about two people there were bipolar, the others were either unidepressed or schizoaffective/bipolarish. I felt that I needed to be facilitating it. really. I could harely wait to get out of there. I told my docotor about it (he sponsers it) and he agreed about the dismal aspect of it. He may be starting another one for people along my lines and will tell me about it. there aren't any more around here and I've looked. AA is depressing and not my cup of tea. Last summer when I was far nearer suicide than I am now (I went on for months in a worse state than I'm in now), I "interviewed" to be a part of a depressed support group, was told I was too angry and depressed for the depressed group (for the level where they were), and thank you very much that'll be $30 please to you unemployed person. I cried so much when she rejected me, she had to prolong the session just to get me under control. She referred me to someone else, but at that point, I crawled back into my hole as it took about one month's worth of gathering energy just to get to her office. I have a friend who suffers from depression, maybe I'll start seeing her more...
>>>Katia--I'm a success story, and not very long ago, I was in a similar boat as yours. It took a very long time, but I've finally found equilibrium. Most of the people on this board are ON this board because they are UNHAPPY with their drug combos and/or diagnosis.**I hope your success story continues Katy. What upsets me is that I have a success story that falls away within days.
**RE: Li. orotate, is there really only a minute amt. in it?
> ***I don't REALLY know about this Lithium orotate business, but it seems to be a racket. I almost get angry about the ads, as they seem to be preying on people who are desperate to take ANYTHING besides REAL LITHIUM. It's not really Lithium...there's just a smidge in it. I would really try to give the REAL DEAL lithium a go first before you sink your hard-earned money into alternative treatments. It's tried and true. I don't know your situation exactly, but for most people, Lamictal as a sole agent is only partially effective. Why not try Lithium+Lamictal? Or Trileptal+Lamictal?
> ***Sweetie, we've all been there. Rant anytime. You can count on me to be here, okay? I care about you. Hang on tight...thank you. I so appreciate that.
hugs back to you and as you say
*sniff* and *roar*
katia
Posted by fluffy on November 14, 2003, at 17:42:35
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( » fluffy, posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 17:12:50
Hey Katia--
I remembered you asked this question in an earlier thread...i found it when I did a search to find Li orotate's contents. Mainly, I beleive it is marketed for the neuroprotective benefits, and it is mostly vitamins with *a little bit* of lithium. Here's Barb-cat's reply:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030912/msgs/259679.html
Honestly, I just don't know that much...I'm just skeptical, and it sure seems expensive when REGULAR LITHIUM is, like $10 for a month's supply. Maybe check the alt. treatments board.
glad you're hanging in..mixed is the worst. THE WORST!
yours,
Katy
Posted by ginger C on November 14, 2003, at 17:53:35
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-(, posted by fluffy on November 14, 2003, at 16:52:25
I know exactly what you folks are feeling when you talk about the cycling and feeling like it is never going to end and bouncing from one drug to the other without finding any relief. I was having those same feelings three years ago when my medicines just completely quit working and i fell into a very severe depression almost to the point of being catatonic. My doctor at that point decided to give me ECT and after that the drugs kicked in and i have never in my life felt as good as i do now. So hang in there there is hope.
Posted by linnette on November 15, 2003, at 1:37:15
In reply to Re: lamictal update and questions » linnette, posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 0:52:26
hi katia,
my dx is BPII. Originally was diagnosed with unipolar depression, but 10 years later, a new pdoc diagnosed me with BPII after extensive questioning about my prior mood history.I too love coffee, and miss the buzz. I am hoping that eventually I will be able to do full strength caffeine again. This may just be part of the adjustment to the lamictal..
linnette
Posted by Budgie on November 15, 2003, at 12:47:46
In reply to Re: Lamictal right for me?, posted by Dalilah on November 14, 2003, at 16:16:05
Hmmm, that's interesting.
I've been reading that lithium can cause some cognitive *dulling*, which I'm loath to deal with.
So what would you say? 50% of my problems have been depression, 50% anxiety/irritablity. With the Klonopin controlling the anxiety, I've been spending quite a bit of time in a very pleasant, somewhat constant state of hypomania (maybe just legitimately happy and energized??). The main problems are the semi-frequent, quick dips into really bad depression (thinking about suicide, etc.), out of the blue or over trivial stressors.
Thanks for your help, Dalilah,
Budgie
Posted by Dalilah on November 15, 2003, at 14:27:42
In reply to Re: Lamictal right for me? » Dalilah, posted by Budgie on November 15, 2003, at 12:47:46
Hi again Budgie,
Maybe the Lamictal would work cause it really helped the depression for me. And that sounds like what you need help with. It made me more steady in the up (sometimes hypomanic, which I like.)
Also, lithium is really supposed to help with the suicidal thoughts, my doctor says. But I know the Lam is the one that helped the depression. Also, I have not experienced any dulling with Lithium. But of course, everyone's different. I must say that a lot of my friends and sister have responded well to Lithium after Depakote (icky yuck horrible) and others did not do a thing but make them fat and lethargic.
-Dalilah
> Hmmm, that's interesting.
>
> I've been reading that lithium can cause some cognitive *dulling*, which I'm loath to deal with.
>
> So what would you say? 50% of my problems have been depression, 50% anxiety/irritablity. With the Klonopin controlling the anxiety, I've been spending quite a bit of time in a very pleasant, somewhat constant state of hypomania (maybe just legitimately happy and energized??). The main problems are the semi-frequent, quick dips into really bad depression (thinking about suicide, etc.), out of the blue or over trivial stressors.
>
> Thanks for your help, Dalilah,
>
> Budgie
Posted by nmk on November 15, 2003, at 16:56:28
In reply to The steady pillar of Barb? » nmk, posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 15:19:24
> > >
> > >>
> **Hi Nicole,
> Sounds like you and I are in similar horrible ways. I just hope Barbara is in an ok place as we're both reaching out to her!
> I, like you, take Seroquel for sleep. I take such a little amount, but it affects me very much. I take like 6mgs for sleep, but I have the same results as you upon awakening. It does put a fog in the brain even if it allows me to sleep.
> The good side of your dx, is now you know. now you can begin searching for the right med combo.
> take care,
> katia
Katia,Yes, for me it is good to know since I now feel I have some control over the whole thing. My pdoc switched my night med to 20mg of Zyprexa to insure that I would be knocked out. I slept straight through the night, woke up as foggy as ever and that feeling did not get better as the day progressed. Last night, I took 10 mg instead and although I felt groggy in the morning, it wore off around noon. Hopefully, I will be able to taper even more but for now I will stay put. I guess we have to deal with certain side effects in order to get some precious sleep.
He also decreased my Lamictal to 100mg per day and I do not feel as agitated on the lower dose.
The support on this board is incredible and I always find reassurance in reading the posts of others in similar situations, especially yours and Barbara's.
Stay well and thanks for responding.
Nicole:)
Posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 17:19:26
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » katia, posted by nmk on November 15, 2003, at 16:56:28
Hi Nicole,
ditto on the support. I really appreciate it too. don't know where I'd be without this board.
Did your doc say that you'll titrate up again on Lam. once you "acclimate" to 100mg?
Is 100mg enough for you? What else are you on again?
katia
Posted by nmk on November 17, 2003, at 8:52:52
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » nmk, posted by katia on November 15, 2003, at 17:19:26
> Hi Nicole,
> ditto on the support. I really appreciate it too. don't know where I'd be without this board.
> Did your doc say that you'll titrate up again on Lam. once you "acclimate" to 100mg?
> Is 100mg enough for you? What else are you on again?
> katia
Hi Katia,Sorry for he delay in responding but weekends are crazy for me with three kids and boatloads of housework and errands. The only chance I have to breathe is here at work.
Anyway, he wants me to stay put at 100mg of Lamictal per day. I have noticed a HUGE improvement with the lower dose. I am no longer agitated, depressed, and can finally sleep. I am also on 50 mg of zoloft and 10 mg of zyprexa at night for sleep. The improvement of my symptoms may be due to the addition of the zyprexa but then again, I don't know.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that this combo will keep me stabilized for awhile since the past few weeks have been a living nightmare.
Keep in touch,
Nicole:))))
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 17, 2003, at 14:36:56
In reply to Not doing too well :-( » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 14, 2003, at 15:08:37
Dear Katia and Friends,
Sorry I haven't posted in a while. We went to DSL and all our internet connections, email and even our telephone ID and ringer have gone to hell in a handbasket (there's that famous handbasket again). I'll be back but right now it's a major task to catch up on all the emails that have finally made it through to us.One thing that I've been thinking, Katia. Since we're both having our ups and downs re not drinking (OK, OK, I did slip up twice since we last talked and swore never again) I'm wondering about that lack of dopamine and maybe our wiring really requires it. Hence the self-medicating. So, the only thing that comes to mind that isn't directly Parkinson's related it Wellbutrin. Have you ever been on it? I was years ago and it made me kind of agitated, but this was pre-BP dx when I was also on 250mg Zoloft and no mood stabilizer. I'm going to talk to my pdoc about it and read up on it. I don't want anything to cause more anxiety and brooding, but these discomforts might be symptoms of unmasked depression. I also don't want to add another med if I can tolerate things without, but on the other hand, I want my life to progress without the stranglehold of anxiety and other unnecessary challenges.
Another med that comes to mind is a stimulant but I've already gone that route with Ritalin and didn't like the feeling or the insomnia one bit. So, anyone out there, tell me what you think about self-medicating with alcohol and Wellbutrin to medicate the thing that alcohol was medicating. Get my drift? Thanks for all your concern about my absense. I promise, I'll keep in touch better. Love, Barbara
Posted by katia on November 17, 2003, at 14:51:58
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » katia, posted by nmk on November 17, 2003, at 8:52:52
good news for you Nicole!
I'm not doing so well again. It's the pooping out of Lam. after 5-6 days. And then as you've read, I had a big bout of drinking on friday cuz' I couldn't take being me anymore.
hope it steadys on for you at this dose. 100mg solo Lam. isn't cutting the mustard for me.
take care,
katia
Posted by katia on November 17, 2003, at 15:07:29
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 17, 2003, at 14:36:56
>
> One thing that I've been thinking, Katia. Since we're both having our ups and downs re not drinking (OK, OK, I did slip up twice since we last talked and swore never again) I'm wondering about that lack of dopamine and maybe our wiring really requires it. Hence the self-medicating. So, the only thing that comes to mind that isn't directly Parkinson's related it Wellbutrin. Have you ever been on it?**Hey Barb,
Good to have you back. I was wondering...
Coincidentally enough, it's been dawning on me that I possibly have a dopamine lack. I asked my pdoc about it and the connection with alcohol - again he didn't really give much of a response, except "you're asking really good questions, I just don't know the answer". And I said "well alcohol is the ONLY thing that's worked for me!". He said, "we're not out of hope yet". - or something like that. Needless to say that night I got smashed to all hell. You'll read about at Substance.
When I was coming off of Serzone, right when I was quite hypo and thinking I was BP, I switched to Wellbutrin - no. take that back. RIGHT before Serzone, coming off of Zoloft, I started WB for two weeks. But I was having terrible terrible w/drawals on Zoloft that I thought it was the WB and stopped it. Then 2 wks. of nothing, I started Serzone. During those two wks. I went hypo and the Serzone sealed it and got worse.
Effexor has the same (maybe just a smudge) of dopamine i think. It's got the norei. and serotonin. I think WB is the big one for dopamine. I too am worried about the stimulating qualities. I'm not sleeping now w/o something just on Lam. I started taking my Neurontin. and seems to work.In regards to the horomone testing, do you know if you have to do it at specific times of the month? Part of my "losing it" has to do with PMS this time of my slip up on Friday. I want to get them tested, but only want to do it once and get an accurate reading. Anyway, if you don't know, don't worry. I'll look it up somewhere.
love,
katia
Posted by Dalilah on November 17, 2003, at 19:00:10
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 17, 2003, at 14:36:56
Hi Barbara,
I tried Wellbutrin a couple times and I nearly died. It made me superagitated and then physically ill for days even after I stopped it. Couldn't eat etc. Of course it's different for everyone.I'm sure you've all heard this before, but I think alcohol is the wrong way to go to help yourself. It seems like a temporary fix and supposedly works against your meds. As a former abuser of all drugs, I was not at all able to address any of my Bipolar problems til I was off it for like a year.
-Dalilah
> Dear Katia and Friends,
> Sorry I haven't posted in a while. We went to DSL and all our internet connections, email and even our telephone ID and ringer have gone to hell in a handbasket (there's that famous handbasket again). I'll be back but right now it's a major task to catch up on all the emails that have finally made it through to us.
>
> One thing that I've been thinking, Katia. Since we're both having our ups and downs re not drinking (OK, OK, I did slip up twice since we last talked and swore never again) I'm wondering about that lack of dopamine and maybe our wiring really requires it. Hence the self-medicating. So, the only thing that comes to mind that isn't directly Parkinson's related it Wellbutrin. Have you ever been on it? I was years ago and it made me kind of agitated, but this was pre-BP dx when I was also on 250mg Zoloft and no mood stabilizer. I'm going to talk to my pdoc about it and read up on it. I don't want anything to cause more anxiety and brooding, but these discomforts might be symptoms of unmasked depression. I also don't want to add another med if I can tolerate things without, but on the other hand, I want my life to progress without the stranglehold of anxiety and other unnecessary challenges.
>
> Another med that comes to mind is a stimulant but I've already gone that route with Ritalin and didn't like the feeling or the insomnia one bit. So, anyone out there, tell me what you think about self-medicating with alcohol and Wellbutrin to medicate the thing that alcohol was medicating. Get my drift? Thanks for all your concern about my absense. I promise, I'll keep in touch better. Love, Barbara
Posted by poop'd-out on November 18, 2003, at 2:51:33
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 17, 2003, at 14:36:56
>
> Another med that comes to mind is a stimulant but I've already gone that route with Ritalin and didn't like the feeling or the insomnia one bit. So, anyone out there, tell me what you think about self-medicating with alcohol and Wellbutrin to medicate the thing that alcohol was medicating. Get my drift? Thanks for all your concern about my absense. I promise, I'll keep in touch better. Love, Barbara
Hi Barb,I agree wholeheartedly with what Dalilah said(about the alcohol and the Wellbutrin). I too used for many years, no fun at all!! Initially, it really helped especially the pain killers but what happened is it stopped working and not only that but I was 100x worse off than I was to begin with.
That's how it was for me anyways, and believe me if it still worked I would be back doing it in a split second. Alas, it does not. My depression still sucks and have yet to find the right combo, but now I have the ability and desire to keep searching rather than trying to mask it up. I still do smoke like a fiend and drink coffee like mad but what can I say.
I also want to add that even on my most horrible, terrible bad days(after 6 years), it never even crosses my mind to drink or use. I actually didn't realize this until after reading some of yours and Katia's posts. Thank you for that! It did take some time to get there =)
My situation may be entirely different from yours, I just drank and used to hide from life, and in many ways still do. Now, I am pushed and forced to face it since I have nowhere else to go, I guess, a good thing.
Please, please don't take this as a you need to quit drinking sermon, I just truly wanted to share my experience with you as you have shared yours with me.
As for the Wellbutrin, I gave it a good trial and I was on mood stabilizers at the time. I never got past the anger, irritability thing with it though. As for dopamine most of the alzheimers drugs affect that. I did try one briefly, they had a patch out, I think it was desyrel?
Take care.
Beth
OH PS When I get anxiety, I pop a couple of rolaids and very strangely it seems to take the edge off it. I never think it is going to work and it always does to some extent. I have told others with anxiety about it and it helped them too! They just seem to have the right amount of calcium/mag to calm the nerves a bit. I urge you to try it. Let me know = )
Posted by nmk on November 18, 2003, at 9:29:03
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » nmk, posted by katia on November 17, 2003, at 14:51:58
> > I'm not doing so well again. It's the pooping out of Lam. after 5-6 days. And then as you've read, I had a big bout of drinking on friday cuz' I couldn't take being me anymore.
> hope it steadys on for you at this dose. 100mg solo Lam. isn't cutting the mustard for me.
> take care,
> katia
Katia,I am hoping today is a better day for you. How much Lam are you up too? It is a frustrating process because of the slow titration. Remember, many folks need to reach at least 250 mg to have any therapeutic effects and some go much higher. I just couldn't deal with the severe insomnia. Things are stable with me but I have learned never to get my hopes up.
You had mentioned the PMS thing and I can totally related since my BP is ruled by the fluctuation in hormones. Typically, I feel "normal" during the first two weeks of my cycle (which is where i am now, and then I crash the last two weeks until my little friend shows up. The hormone testing is tricky because your levels change daily. I will see with the next cycle if 100 mg of Lam will do the trick during the luteal phase or if I need to go higher during that time.
I hope you feel better...please let me know.
Nicole:))
Posted by MamaCindy2000 on November 18, 2003, at 10:20:25
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( Longer than I meant! » BarbaraCat, posted by poop'd-out on November 18, 2003, at 2:51:33
Posted by katia on November 18, 2003, at 17:05:57
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-(, posted by Dalilah on November 17, 2003, at 19:00:10
Hi Dalilah,
yeah, unfortunately what you say is correct about stopping the substances. and unfortunately, it's not so easy to just quit just because we know this.
I'm trying my best. But it's a bit of a catch 22 for me. I stopped for five weeks, yet I still haven't found the right medication combo and so I'm feeling awful without the drinking and without the right med combo - so after five weeks of barely hanging on I reached for something that would make life bearable and suicide not an option. I'm hoping to stop again. I'm taking one day at a time. I realize it complicates things in the med dept. and makes things not so clear and evident about what's working and what's not. the one thing sobriety has told me is I'm way more depressed than I thought. And I'm trying my best in the face of all this as well, I work in a restaurant where wine is EVERYWHERE and I"m constantly being offered it. And no, I can't change jobs now. I can't do anything else that pays this much, that is part-time at night, and is fairly easy in the sense that I'm like my own boss and I go to work and it's over. Nothing to take home, no one to really report to, etc...There are no other options at the moment.I don't think it's hopeless to find the right med combo even if I slip up like this occasionally. I'm as good as I've ever been and as aware as ever about this problem.
why did it take a year of sobriety to figure/sort out your bipolar med regime? Just the normal "trial and error" endless nightmare? I've been on this road for 18 months. we're almost there I hope.
Can you expand on what happened in your awareness when you were sober for a long period of time? Did you, like me, understand that your "illness" is worse than you thought b/c it was being masked? What else did you discover? I need to hear stuff like this to help support me in choosing sobriety.
thanks.
Katia
> I'm sure you've all heard this before, but I think alcohol is the wrong way to go to help yourself. It seems like a temporary fix and supposedly works against your meds. As a former abuser of all drugs, I was not at all able to address any of my Bipolar problems til I was off it for like a year.
> -Dalilah
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Katia and Friends,
> > Sorry I haven't posted in a while. We went to DSL and all our internet connections, email and even our telephone ID and ringer have gone to hell in a handbasket (there's that famous handbasket again). I'll be back but right now it's a major task to catch up on all the emails that have finally made it through to us.
> >
> > One thing that I've been thinking, Katia. Since we're both having our ups and downs re not drinking (OK, OK, I did slip up twice since we last talked and swore never again) I'm wondering about that lack of dopamine and maybe our wiring really requires it. Hence the self-medicating. So, the only thing that comes to mind that isn't directly Parkinson's related it Wellbutrin. Have you ever been on it? I was years ago and it made me kind of agitated, but this was pre-BP dx when I was also on 250mg Zoloft and no mood stabilizer. I'm going to talk to my pdoc about it and read up on it. I don't want anything to cause more anxiety and brooding, but these discomforts might be symptoms of unmasked depression. I also don't want to add another med if I can tolerate things without, but on the other hand, I want my life to progress without the stranglehold of anxiety and other unnecessary challenges.
> >
> > Another med that comes to mind is a stimulant but I've already gone that route with Ritalin and didn't like the feeling or the insomnia one bit. So, anyone out there, tell me what you think about self-medicating with alcohol and Wellbutrin to medicate the thing that alcohol was medicating. Get my drift? Thanks for all your concern about my absense. I promise, I'll keep in touch better. Love, Barbara
>
>
Posted by katia on November 18, 2003, at 17:24:16
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » katia, posted by nmk on November 18, 2003, at 9:29:03
> I am hoping today is a better day for you.
**Hi Nicole,
Today is a better day, thanks very much. Don't know what happened. I had three glasses of wine at work last night, one cig, and 600mg of Neurontin for sleep. Slept 9 hours; and just feel relaxed and calm today. I'm hoping today's the day, I stop drinking again. It's so touch and go.
I'm still at 100mg of Lam. on thursday I go to 150mg. How can I tell if I need a hormonal med regime? When is the best time to check hormone levels? I read somewhere that if PMS lasts more than one week to 10 days, then something else is going on. i'm like you where I have two weeks of no PMS and then two weeks of. My best week of the month is just after my period. But then again, it really doesn't make sense, since I can have bad bouts anytime during the month.>>Remember, many folks need to reach at least 250 mg to have any therapeutic effects and some go much higher. I just couldn't deal with the severe insomnia.
**These "many folks" - are they on other meds in conjunction with Lam? I don't think Lam. will do it solo. Next visit, I think we'll add Lithium. I'm just trying to decide whether i want to start with Li.Orotate, or the normal Li. Do you know anything about Li. Orotate (Serenity)? I've heard positive experiences and negative ones. My hesitation is, I'm sick of trial and error and I have a feeling that's what that will do for me - be just another trial and frustrating error to only lead me to the Li. Carbonate.
The other thing I've been thinking and hearing about is how thyroid meds are helpful for rapid cyclers who don't happen to have a low/high thyroid, it's just that they work. (probably along the same enigmatic lines of antiseizures working as mood stabilizers).
I wish I had a doctor who took more initiative in thinking about things like, thyroid meds, hormones, etc. He's such a dud when it comes to even responding to my ideas. What can I do? There are not many available pdocs in the area and it's probably best to stay with one who's tracked me for a few months already with different meds and mood charting. It's just frustrating as we all know to pay such big bucks to what feels like slow, dim, not too creative, holistic or innovative in his thinking. just following the text book rules. Perhaps I don't give him enough credit. There are probably a lot of unspokenness about his logic that comes from years of study that I'm just not seeing. I hope so anyway....
Maybe I'll try 9g of fish oil, like Barb suggests.
katia
Posted by katia on November 18, 2003, at 17:36:20
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( Longer than I meant! » BarbaraCat, posted by poop'd-out on November 18, 2003, at 2:51:33
> I also want to add that even on my most horrible, terrible bad days(after 6 years), it never even crosses my mind to drink or use. I actually didn't realize this until after reading some of yours and Katia's posts. Thank you for that! It did take some time to get there =)
Hi Beth!
** how long did it take you to get there? I had glimpses of that in my five weeks of sobriety (like I knew that I didn't have the option of "using"), but something just clicked and my mind opened again to the fact that I COULD DRINK and ease this pain.> My situation may be entirely different from yours, I just drank and used to hide from life, and in many ways still do. Now, I am pushed and forced to face it since I have nowhere else to go, I guess, a good thing.
**Boy, how familiar is that one? The sad thing is for me, I drank and hid away and didn't even realize that I was hiding from life. The excuse, in retrospect, was, "I just need some down time, I"m going thru' something, a lot of dark stuff is coming up in me (as tho'I was "healing and processing" something) when in reality, it was DEPRESSION!!! Duh! It didn't occur to me to get help or acknowledge, or rather didn't dawn on me that i was suffering from depression/bipolar. I just thought it was circumstantial and I"ll be better soon or that this was just the way life was. It's so good to be aware of that masking and hiding away. it shifts everything. I just wish my brother would wake up to it. At least someone in my family (me) has woken up.
> Please, please don't take this as a you need to quit drinking sermon, I just truly wanted to share my experience with you as you have shared yours with me.**I need stories like this, thanks.
> I did try one briefly, they had a patch out, I think it was desyrel?
**Did it work? What meds are you on now? How old are you? What is your dx? How did you stop using substances????
warmly,
katia
Posted by Dalilah on November 18, 2003, at 23:14:10
In reply to Re: Not doing too well :-( » Dalilah, posted by katia on November 18, 2003, at 17:05:57
Hi Katia,
I hope I didn't sound too judgemental. Believe me, I have been exactly where you are, working in restaurants and bars. And believe me I know how hard it is to quit. I tried so many times. Finally I ended up feeling so bad I ended up going to some of those anonymous programs and it helped. It's been over six years now. Amazing.
I know not everyone can do it and not everyone needs to. I did need to.And to answer your second question, I did not even realize I had depression until I stopped. Just like you said - when I stop I realize how depressed I am. Well I was so depressed I couldn't get out of bed. This wasn't til I had like 3 years sober and my body was coming out of the alcohol induced fog.
Then I was diagnosed with depression and eventually bipolar. Then came the med game, which you know about. I just know that drugs and alcohol will upset the delicate balance of my body's chemistry. Plus I have no desire to use them. I can't even drink caffiene. That's just the way it is with my brain.
Once again, it may be entirely fine if you drink ocassionally. I don't want to preach.
-Dalilah
Posted by nmk on November 19, 2003, at 10:59:59
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » nmk, posted by katia on November 18, 2003, at 17:24:16
> How can I tell if I need a hormonal med regime? When is the best time to check hormone levels? I read somewhere that if PMS lasts more than one week to 10 days, then something else is going on. i'm like you where I have two weeks of no PMS and then two weeks of. My best week of the month is just after my period. But then again, it really doesn't make sense, since I can have bad bouts anytime during the month.
*I don't think that there is any ideal time to do the hormonal testing since levels change on a daily basis. Sounds like we have similar patterns...two weeks good, two weeks bad, with some bumps during the good weeks. I am very sensitive to any hormonal flucuations and my fear is that I will have to endure this until menopause is over (I am 39). I have an excellent book for you to check out called "Women's Moods" by Deborah Sichel. Here is the amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380728524/qid=1069260238/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3175632-0403835?v=glance&s=books
>
> >>> **These "many folks" - are they on other meds in conjunction with Lam? I don't think Lam. will do it solo.*From all of the postings and articles I have been reading, the Lam needs to be supplemented with either a low dose AD or another mood stabilizer. You may want to continue to titrate up as far as you can go before adding the Lithium.
> The other thing I've been thinking and hearing about is how thyroid meds are helpful for rapid cyclers who don't happen to have a low/high thyroid, it's just that they work. (probably along the same enigmatic lines of antiseizures working as mood stabilizers).*I have mixed feelings about this one. I know it helps many but did not work for me. After the birth of my boy two years ago, I had borderline low thyroid and was put on Synthroid. It seemed to help for a month or so but then pooped out.
> I wish I had a doctor who took more initiative in thinking about things like, thyroid meds, hormones, etc. He's such a dud when it comes to even responding to my ideas. What can I do?*Can you find a psychiatrist whose area of expertise is mood disorders in women? In this long road to recovery, I have found that I have to be my own advocate and remain very proactive in my treatment. Initially, I was counting on my pdoc for all of the answers and would take whatever he prescribed without much question. I have learned to be a little more cautious, question more, and bone up on the research. Granted, this is tough to do when you are in the midst of a depression when all you want to do is curl up in bed. Oh, since this mess all started, I have been charting my moods on a daily basis. I just print out a monthly calendar and list daily moods and any med changes. This helps when I see the pdoc.
>>>There are not many available pdocs in the area and it's probably best to stay with one who's tracked me for a few months already with different meds and mood charting.Where do you live? If you are at all dissatisfied, try and seek out another opinion even if it means traveling a bit. Please don't settle for care that you don't think is adequate.
I hope things are still looking up for you today!!
Sincerely,
Nicole:))))
Posted by fluffy on November 19, 2003, at 11:33:37
In reply to Re: The steady pillar of Barb? » katia, posted by nmk on November 19, 2003, at 10:59:59
Hi all--I hope you ALL are well.
It's interesting to hear all of your stories. I haven't been keeping up like I used to.
Katia--some things re: med changes, additions struck me....
I really agree with the advice (i forget who gave it now) to get the Lam at the full (normally therapeutic) dose, which as I understand it for Bipolars is 200mg. If you are not showing signs of rashes, you can go up more quickly past 100mg. I went up every week once i hit 100mg, increasing 50mg until I hit 200mg, as part of the clinical trial I participated in. My doctor, who is a researcher, claims that during all of the clinical trials for Lamictal in BP depressions, nothing over 200mg seemed to change the results. I'm sure there's some give or take in the dosing (maybe some need 250 or 150mg). But my doc was adimant about it. So I believed him, maybe blindly, who knows...But the trileptal add-on has really smoothed me out for now.
As for the fish oil...that's also tricky. I've kept up with the clinical trials on this, too. I'm not an expert, mind you, so I don't want to seem like miss know-it-all. According to the trials, though, it seemed that over 3g of fish oil sometimes caused a NEGATIVE result! (there's lots of fumbling with control groups and such, so it's hard to tell how much stock to put into research). But it seemed that the groups who took 1-2g of fish oil over a LONG period of time did the best. So it's a long term thing, not an immediate relief type thing. I've even heard that it may take up to a year to see the results. But it's a good idea for your health in general, and it makes your skin and nails nice anyway. Why not try it? It's low risk. But to avoid the fishy burps and smell, you might start with 1-2g (IMHO). I just use the store brand stuff. It's cheap, and i just don't believe the jibber-jabber about toxicity of store brands. I take 2g right now. Apparently, the cod liver oil doesn't contain the Omega 3's in the same amounts as the normal supplements. Go to psycheducation.org for more info. It's interesting. It may even help the PMS irritability.
And you've heard me preach before, and Barb-cat's opinions on the Li Orotate. Frankly, you should really go with the real deal first, as unpalatable as it may seem. It's the tried and true. And I do personally feel that Li Orotate is further out on the decision tree. The gold standards are gold standards for reasons, and they are all worth a try before the alternative, trendy new alternative stuff.
Ok--enough from me. Sorry to seem preachy about meds. Please know that you always have my support...med trials, and trials and tribulations of life.
hugs and support,
Katy
Posted by katia on November 19, 2003, at 15:19:24
In reply to Re: Hey Katia, posted by fluffy on November 19, 2003, at 11:33:37
> Hi all--I hope you ALL are well.
**Ditto to all.
I am at 100mg now and on Thursday, Im going up to 125mg for a week, then 150mg and see how I do. This may just be a side effect of lam. but I'm more elevated good (at first) and mixed like/anxious can't sit still, need sleeping pills...maybe, I too, need Li. to smooth it out. As Nicole and you said, I'll get to the therapeutic dose first on Lam. and see what happens.As for the fish oil, I've been taking 1-2g for over a year and just recently (past three months) been taking a good quality molecularly distilled(little or no mercury) fish oil of 3g per day. again, don't know if it's adding any lift at all. Maybe i'll try going higher just to see. As for me, I do believe that getting a good quality fish oil is TRES IMPORTANT! Injesting that much fish oil daily and having it be toxic with mercury? There have been tests regarding this - can't remember where - but it's a real thing this mercury toxicity. Maybe I'll try and find some info.
> And you've heard me preach before, and Barb-cat's opinions on the Li Orotate. Frankly, you should really go with the real deal first, as unpalatable as it may seem. It's the tried and true. And I do personally feel that Li Orotate is further out on the decision tree. The gold standards are gold standards for reasons, and they are all worth a try before the alternative, trendy new alternative stuff.
**Yeah, I'm kinda feeling this way too. My one concern is this: If I develop hypothyroid on Lithium, does it stop after I discontinue Li.? Anyone know this answer?
> Ok--enough from me. Sorry to seem preachy about meds. Please know that you always have my support...med trials, and trials and tribulations of life.
**You're not preachy at all. I appreciate your time and advice and thoughts.
How're you doing?
warmly,
Katia
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