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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Roomy on November 11, 2003, at 13:57:52
In reply to Re: I need help fast...before 4:30 today » Roomy, posted by pixygoth on November 11, 2003, at 13:46:14
> Roomy -
> This is my first day off Efxr... I have been taking one half (=17.75?)tablet a day for the last week -
> and my head is all over the place. I can only suggest to you what I'm going to try - sleep.
> Can you? I'm dreading losing my wonder-ability to sleep 13 hours at a go ...
> Hope you coped with the afternoon.
> Take care,
> SHey, thank for the response. I DID hear that Benadryl helps but I think you have the right idea.....sleep thru it. Thus the Benedryl. My reply to that is....I have a little one that just turned 3yrs last month and I also manage a mobile home community. (and dudes putting in a new water flushing hydrant system just hit a water main this morning leaving the whole park without water) THATS what I needed today!!!! NOT!!
thanks for the reply..stay in touch. and good luck to you
Posted by edw on November 11, 2003, at 14:11:27
In reply to I need help fast...before 4:30 today, posted by Roomy on November 11, 2003, at 11:55:12
Aren't you suppose to ease off these sorts of drugs. Going cold turkey has got to be rough.
Posted by hockeygirlcanada on November 11, 2003, at 18:01:33
In reply to Re: I need help fast...before 4:30 today, posted by edw on November 11, 2003, at 14:11:27
Going off of Effexor cold turkey is not a good idea. I was on 300 mg for 2 1/2 years. I tapered down 75mg a week for 4 weeks.
It is not easy, it is hell, but I think if you can have faith that it is temporary, and if you don't want to be on Effexor, don't let the doctor put you back on it. There are alot of drugs out there, even though you feel you have been on all of them, I know I feel like that, but you cannot believe this is permanent, because I know it does get better and it does go away, but you have to battle through it.
Stay strong!
Posted by HisOwn on November 12, 2003, at 0:47:26
In reply to I need help fast...before 4:30 today, posted by Roomy on November 11, 2003, at 11:55:12
Ok. I know that it is after 4:30 but I just got to my computer. I want you to know...this is day number 11 off Effexor for me (no pills as of Nov 1). The physical withdrawal symptoms are almost totally gone now. I say almost because the 'zaps' were back again last night but not anywhere near as bad as before. You just need to hang in there. You are at the point where the symptoms will start going away now...the first 5 days were the worst! Don't go back! Benedryl does help. And I would also take 600 mg of Ibuprophen which seemed to help with the body aches.
Posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
In reply to Re: I need help fast...before 4:30 today, posted by HisOwn on November 12, 2003, at 0:47:26
i'm curious to know why alot of you are going off effexor. Is it because it no longer helps you or you are only going through a period of depression. I've suffered depression for nearly 13 years, during that time i have tried numerous treatments most of which made me feel like a damn zombie. I've found effexor has limited side effects, apart from the obvious interference with ones sex life.
Posted by Roomy on November 12, 2003, at 7:15:01
In reply to why are u people going off effexor?, posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
> i'm curious to know why alot of you are going off effexor. Is it because it no longer helps you or you are only going through a period of depression. I've suffered depression for nearly 13 years, during that time i have tried numerous treatments most of which made me feel like a damn zombie. I've found effexor has limited side effects, apart from the obvious interference with ones sex life.
Peter, 'if it aint broke; dont fix it!!!'
Effexor was my friend for the past 5-6 years! It effects everyone differently and everyone has different priorities in life. If your depression was making your life miserable, and you find that effexor helps, by all means..go on it, stay on it. For me, it was good a first but I had to have the increased dose and with the increase in drug, came the increase in side effects; side effects you may not have or may not find to be a problem. I gained weight and was tired ALL the time on it! Some people are thin and full of energy...for them the drug would be great!!! It raises the blood pressure in some...I have very LOW blood pressure so that side effect was actually a PLUS for me. As for the lack of sex drive....hmmmm what can I say and try to be positive on this one...spouses probably are not too kean on this sede effect but at least they can be assured that we wont be out sleeping around on em. :)
Posted by hockeygirlcanada on November 12, 2003, at 7:40:25
In reply to why are u people going off effexor?, posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
I think it is important to remember that everyone is different, and reacts to meds differently.
This board is to get experiences from others, support and information. No one here is a doctor, but we have experience with mental ilness and different medications...
I don't think we need to question why someone is doing something, but to answer their questions as best we can, offer our experiences, support and advice...
Posted by pixygoth on November 12, 2003, at 7:52:26
In reply to why are u people going off effexor?, posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
I am in a similar position to Roomy - I've got fat and it stopped helping and started hindering.
Also I feel that although I was really anxious before, Efxr has made me more likely to actually freak out, rather than it just being "low-level" anxious.
No offense taken at the question!
S
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 12, 2003, at 11:25:30
In reply to why are u people going off effexor?, posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
I have to quit because Effexor raised my blood pressure too high. Other than that, it was great for me.
KDi in TX
> i'm curious to know why alot of you are going off effexor. Is it because it no longer helps you or you are only going through a period of depression. I've suffered depression for nearly 13 years, during that time i have tried numerous treatments most of which made me feel like a damn zombie. I've found effexor has limited side effects, apart from the obvious interference with ones sex life.
Posted by april8 on November 14, 2003, at 15:12:01
In reply to Effexor and Zyprexa, posted by Peter03 on November 11, 2003, at 7:42:29
Hi, what is zyprexa? is it another anti-depressant? what is your diagnosis, I have a friend who is bi-polar and really needs suggestions!
thanks!> Hi, I was just wondering if anyone has had any exprience with the combination of effexor and zyprexa? I've been on effexor for about 4 months now. I reached a dose of 225 mg before having to drop back down to 150, after becoming increasingly agitated. I had reached a point where I was no longer depressed but severly lacked energy. The doctor I am seeing suggested zyprexa as a booster if you like. I am now experiencing a sense of awakening, feelings like I have never felt before. I spent the best years of my life depressed. For the first time in my life I feel like I have real control over my life. The way I think is even different, i'm more alert, no longer feel fuzzy in the head, no longer feel and look as though I spent the previous night smoking dope. I'm interested in hearing other peoples stories, I guess i'm really looking for reassurance that the long term benefit of this combination is fairly consistant.
>
> Peter.
Posted by slinky on November 15, 2003, at 21:33:03
In reply to why are u people going off effexor?, posted by Peter03 on November 12, 2003, at 6:36:37
Posted by pala on November 19, 2003, at 0:13:47
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by T_R_D on October 28, 2003, at 9:44:48
> Hi there...the first time I went off Effexor it took me about three weeks to get straightened out. That was without any other "remedies" that can help. The second time around (just a few weeks ago) I actually got a prescription for Prozac for three days. It helped with the brain zaps/mood swings. I then took some Benadryl for the bodily symptoms...it made me very sleepy/lightheaded but at least I was in a place where either I didn't care how I felt and/or without withdrawal symptoms! After doing that I was back to "normal" in less than a week. Give it a try!
This is for everyone's benefit who is withdrawing from Klonopin/Effexor/Prozac
I was on all kinds of Ads, you name it, for almost 6 years, the last ones I took was Dexadrine and Klonopin
Because of terrible side effects (to name a few – terrible Post nasal drip, GIRD problem, involuntary blinking
Of eyes, short temper). I decided to withdraw from these drugs7 months ago I determined to come off these hellish drugs, first 4 months were hell,
side effects were almost unbearable, extreme fatigue, panic attacks, anxiety problems, post nasal drip, numbness
in legs, irritation in eyes, worst nightmares, spaced out feeling, electric shocks in head, elevated cholesterol), I was almost mentally impaired but I had this determination because of which I am myself, back to happy days without any of those problems
Actually I am on no medication almost for one month, all I am taking is Centrum, fish oil capsule, coral calcium and occasionally Motrin for headache, I am doing great, no panic attacks and no anxiety problems,
my health is overall better and I have the best control over my mind which never happened during last 6 years of taking these medications, I do regular exercise now, cholesterol is rapidly becoming low, concentration is awesome, superb mental control, feeling happy about myself.If possible, give it a try, taper it, you will certainly feel more anxiety and panic attacks and other severe withdrawal symptoms for few months (may be 5 months), have that determination, please take help from your friends and your family members then you will not feel these disorders again, many people will go back to the medicines during these 5 months because of unbearable side effects, I went through all this hell for almost 6 months every day and night, severe anxiety, terrible nightmares, dizziness, drowsiness, spaced out feeling, numbness in legs, lost my resistance over all, ill temper etc but as I said above I have the best control over my mind, in last one month the mind has never gone haywire
My sincere advice to you all who are taking any of these medications, please taper and stop, you will be yourself and the artificial changes in your personality and mental status of the mind brought in by these drugs will be gone for ever, any one of you who needs advice please post your questions, I will try to answer to the best of knowledge and experience.
Good luck.pala
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 22, 2003, at 16:40:34
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by pala on November 19, 2003, at 0:13:47
I am in the midst of Effexor withdrawal as we speak. Doctor replaced Effexor with Remeron because the Effexor seemed to be making matters worse. The eltro-shock-thingy feelings are happening, and I can deal with that. Weird tweaks and twitches are bad bad bad. We switched me from 225mg of Effexor to 15mg Remeron on Wednesday night, Thursday and Friday I was dopey with mild but steadily increasing eltro-shock-thingy feelings. Today, Saturday, I've barel been out of bed. Wild wild dreams as I doze off and on. Many other problems too, flu feeling, tired, want to cry but can't, etc. Not sure what if anything I can do to ease this. Ideas? Suggestions? Please please help...not sure I can handle this alone.
Posted by micro on November 24, 2003, at 1:28:20
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help » pala, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 22, 2003, at 16:40:34
> I am in the midst of Effexor withdrawal as we speak. Doctor replaced Effexor with Remeron because the Effexor seemed to be making matters worse. The eltro-shock-thingy feelings are happening, and I can deal with that. Weird tweaks and twitches are bad bad bad. We switched me from 225mg of Effexor to 15mg Remeron on Wednesday night, Thursday and Friday I was dopey with mild but steadily increasing eltro-shock-thingy feelings. Today, Saturday, I've barel been out of bed. Wild wild dreams as I doze off and on. Many other problems too, flu feeling, tired, want to cry but can't, etc. Not sure what if anything I can do to ease this. Ideas? Suggestions? Please please help...not sure I can handle this alone.
Hello! I am sorry you are having these symtoms ,but rest assured that the paresthesias [tinglings] are most likely due to a rapid decrease of effexor levels in your blood, It has definite withdrawl symtoms and can be found in most pharm articles and in a statement given by the manufacturer. been there done thatbut, please revisit the matter with your doc.
also, keep in mind you have two meds in your system, one level going up /the other down ! hope this helps- micro
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 7:51:33
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help » pala, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 22, 2003, at 16:40:34
Get back on Effexor RIGHT NOW and then taper the dosage slowly. Decreasing by 37.5 a week seems to keep the zaps from being unbearable. The last 37.5 can be a problem. If you read back on Effexor withdrawal posts, some people have to divide the 37.5 into half's/quarter's to finally make it to zero. Good Luck. You aren't alone and it IS terribly difficult. You aren't going crazy. k?
KDi in TX
> I am in the midst of Effexor withdrawal as we speak. Doctor replaced Effexor with Remeron because the Effexor seemed to be making matters worse. The eltro-shock-thingy feelings are happening, and I can deal with that. Weird tweaks and twitches are bad bad bad. We switched me from 225mg of Effexor to 15mg Remeron on Wednesday night, Thursday and Friday I was dopey with mild but steadily increasing eltro-shock-thingy feelings. Today, Saturday, I've barel been out of bed. Wild wild dreams as I doze off and on. Many other problems too, flu feeling, tired, want to cry but can't, etc. Not sure what if anything I can do to ease this. Ideas? Suggestions? Please please help...not sure I can handle this alone.
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 24, 2003, at 12:44:01
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help » Blissful_Girl_NOT, posted by KimberlyDi on November 24, 2003, at 7:51:33
Thank you so much Micro & KDi.
Saturday certainly was a "Dark night of the soul" with these withdrawals. I think I made it through the worst (fingers crossed) since Sunday and today have seemed better. I'm a little leary to go back on any Effexor at all, even to help reduce these stupid withdrawal effects because it will already be a week tomorrow since my final dose.
Both my dr. & my pharmacist told me there should be "no noticeable effects of stopping this medication", especially since I was replacing it with Remeron which is the same class of drug. Here's my timeline, your thoughts or feedback on this would be great:
11-18-2003 last 225mg of Effexor
11-19-2003 first 15mg Remeron (no effects)
11-20-2003 "brain shivers" kick into high gear
11-21-2003 hard-core brain shivers, dizzy, drowsy
11-22-2003 total meltdown (in bed, tweaking, shivering, sweats, brain shivers non stop, agitated, tired, wild dreams, diarhea, thirsty, nauseous, confused, weak, clumsy, mini-siezure type events)
11-23-2003 brain shivers, feel fuzzy, a bit detached, diarhea, weak, clumsy, weird dreams
11-24-2003 brain shivers, feel fuzzy, a bit detached, still weak & clumsy, still weird dreams
11-25-2003 supposed to increase Remeron to 30mg
11-26-2003 appt. with therapist (not a dr.)
11-27-2003 appt. with GP
12-02-2003 begin one month leave from work due to this crappy illness...this leave will hopefully mean I can keep my job when I return...the Effexor has made things so much worse that my boss & our CFO held a bit of an "intervention" since increasing my Effexor had made me hostile and difficult to work with (problems have the exact same timeline as my Effexor increases)
12-10-2003 appt. with psych dr.So, this is me in a nutshell...pun intended...for anyone who finds the Effexor useful, I hope you never ever have to stop taking it. For those who haven't found it useful, I suggest getting off and staying off...and hang on tight while you attempt getting off of it!
Thanks again Micro & KDi for replying to me...your words of encouragement have helped!
Blissful_Girl_NOT in Vancouver, BC.
Posted by pala on November 25, 2003, at 1:28:49
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by micro on November 24, 2003, at 1:28:20
> > I am in the midst of Effexor withdrawal as we speak. Doctor replaced Effexor with Remeron because the Effexor seemed to be making matters worse. The eltro-shock-thingy feelings are happening, and I can deal with that. Weird tweaks and twitches are bad bad bad. We switched me from 225mg of Effexor to 15mg Remeron on Wednesday night, Thursday and Friday I was dopey with mild but steadily increasing eltro-shock-thingy feelings. Today, Saturday, I've barel been out of bed. Wild wild dreams as I doze off and on. Many other problems too, flu feeling, tired, want to cry but can't, etc. Not sure what if anything I can do to ease this. Ideas? Suggestions? Please please help...not sure I can handle this alone.
>
> Hello! I am sorry you are having these symtoms ,but rest assured that the paresthesias [tinglings] are most likely due to a rapid decrease of effexor levels in your blood, It has definite withdrawl symtoms and can be found in most pharm articles and in a statement given by the manufacturer. been there done thatbut, please revisit the matter with your doc.
> also, keep in mind you have two meds in your system, one level going up /the other down ! hope this helps- microHang in there, I have been through this, all you need is determination, please get help from your close freinds, first few months you have the worst withdrawl symptoms, then it would ease on you, spaced out, dizzyness, severe body pain, indigestion, nightmares are some of the symptoms that I had, but once you feel normal (may take
5 to 6 months), you will be much more happier than you were on these medications.Good luck and you are doing great.
take care
pala
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 25, 2003, at 12:23:23
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by pala on November 25, 2003, at 1:28:49
Thanks Pala!!
It does seem to be improving ever so slightly each day that passes. I have had all sorts of suggestions...some doable...some not so doable...about how to manage this. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I won't take one more micro gram of Effexor, even if it might make the withdrawals disappear altogether. I know that for some people this drug has worked and improved their situations. For me it has nearly cost me my job, most of my close relationships and now while trying to get off of it...it has just about sapped my last vestiges of sanity!!! All of my major problems in the past 6 months just happen to coincide with dosage increases of the Effexor. It does not take a rocket scientist to establish the relationship between these things.
I can't wait until I feel more or less like me again!
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 25, 2003, at 12:48:27
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 25, 2003, at 12:23:23
Well, I do hope that you continue to post. Many people want to know of experiences of the "taperless" withdrawal. The abrupt "i quit and aint gonna take no more Effexor". I wish you luck!
KDi in TX
> Thanks Pala!!
>
> It does seem to be improving ever so slightly each day that passes. I have had all sorts of suggestions...some doable...some not so doable...about how to manage this. The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that I won't take one more micro gram of Effexor, even if it might make the withdrawals disappear altogether. I know that for some people this drug has worked and improved their situations. For me it has nearly cost me my job, most of my close relationships and now while trying to get off of it...it has just about sapped my last vestiges of sanity!!! All of my major problems in the past 6 months just happen to coincide with dosage increases of the Effexor. It does not take a rocket scientist to establish the relationship between these things.
> I can't wait until I feel more or less like me again!
Posted by pala on November 25, 2003, at 18:09:42
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help » Blissful_Girl_NOT, posted by KimberlyDi on November 25, 2003, at 12:48:27
Bliss,
It is not at all a good idea to stop medication
abruptly like that, you may end up in hospital
please taper it, you should give up these medications in such a way that you will not be
put back on them again just to avoid withdrawal symptoms.Again good luck.
pala
Posted by rbeck on November 25, 2003, at 18:53:06
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help » Blissful_Girl_NOT, posted by KimberlyDi on November 25, 2003, at 12:48:27
...I've gone off Effexor a few times- sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. And the one thing that I will note is that the first couple of days seem outstanding. Like it is the best possible option. However, another day or two into it, and you realize that, in needless to say, less than technical terms, your chemicals are out of whack and that's the reason why you ever took the meds! Now, having stopped, your chemical [upstairs] are still out of whack and need more chemicals to get it back to some degree of balance. As I have found, it seems that my moods and all go to the other extreme, as though my body is trying to overcompensate for the loss of the Effexor-induced effects. ...Am I truly babbling? :) ...Either way, I hope you know what I'm trying to say. Stopping taking the effexor is all good, if that is what works for you. But please consider finding another med- whether rx or natural. There was a reason that you were directed to start in the first place.
Best wishes to you all!
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on November 25, 2003, at 23:06:11
In reply to Re: What are the Effexor withdrawl symptoms? Need help, posted by rbeck on November 25, 2003, at 18:53:06
Hi All,
Well, it's Day 6 without the Effexor. My last dose of 225 mg was last Tuesday and each day has been an improvement over the last.
I want to clear up a few things...
I'm not off of meds entirely, my GP switched my meds from Effexor to Remeron. So, while I may not agree with my GP's idea of switching me so quickly like that, it is actually working so far...after those horrible first few days!!!
I am going to continue with treatment, but Effexor was not the right drug for me. I was actually feeling worse on it than I did before I began taking. So I need to find something that works for me, and Effexor wasn't it. It made me more irritable, hostile, and agitated than I have ever been.
I'm not anti-Effexor in general...I'm anti-ffexor for me and my body. It has not been a good experience for me...I'm hoping that the Remeron, twice weekly counselling sessions, my naturopath, massage therapy and continued excersize will all be a part of improving my condition. I may never get off of meds, I've been off and on dozens for over 15 years, but what happened to me while on Effexor and what's happened now while trying to get off of it has not been positive.
Phyically, I'm still feeling a bit dodgy from the withdrawal. Emotionally, I feel more like myself than I have in the entire year I was on Effexor...so far, the Remeron has seemed to be a positive experience...but if not, then I try and try agai to find what will work for me.
I refuse to give up.
Posted by Melissa1 on November 26, 2003, at 13:03:07
In reply to Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by janey on November 1, 1998, at 16:30:34
I appreciate everyone's feedback on this site so much. It has helped me get through the worst of Effexor withdrawal. At least I knew I wasn't going crazy. I was on 150 mg xr Effexor for about 4 years. It worked fairly well during that time. I also took Remeron at night to help me sleep. However, the Effexor started to have negative effects like exhaustion and anxiety, so I went off of it. The withdrawal is horrendous. You feel like you're having a nervous breakdown. It took about a month of slowly weaning off (very slowly) before I felt like I could function. Between the nausea, the inability to think or have any coordination and the tremendous mood swings, I think things have gotten better. I still have mild effects, but nothing like in the beginning. If you have not started this medicine, I would suggest you try something else. If you have to wean off, I would suggest another antidepressant in the meantime to avoid the radical serotonin and norepinephrine drop off. Effexor is nasty stuff and I am not surprised there are class action lawsuits against it. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. It does get better with time. Thank God.
Posted by Enderkin on November 26, 2003, at 14:08:41
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Melissa1 on November 26, 2003, at 13:03:07
> I appreciate everyone's feedback on this site so much. It has helped me get through the worst of Effexor withdrawal. At least I knew I wasn't going crazy. I was on 150 mg xr Effexor for about 4 years. It worked fairly well during that time. I also took Remeron at night to help me sleep. However, the Effexor started to have negative effects like exhaustion and anxiety, so I went off of it. The withdrawal is horrendous. You feel like you're having a nervous breakdown. It took about a month of slowly weaning off (very slowly) before I felt like I could function. Between the nausea, the inability to think or have any coordination and the tremendous mood swings, I think things have gotten better. I still have mild effects, but nothing like in the beginning. If you have not started this medicine, I would suggest you try something else. If you have to wean off, I would suggest another antidepressant in the meantime to avoid the radical serotonin and norepinephrine drop off. Effexor is nasty stuff and I am not surprised there are class action lawsuits against it. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. It does get better with time. Thank God.
I decreased my dosage from 225 to 75 in a week. I had horrible brain zaps that literally stopped me in my tracks. They have been getting better each day.I have rushes of depression. It's because I haven't been dealing with lifes trials. I have been dependant on this drug since April. I am not taking another antidepressant while I get off of this. Transferring dependancy is not something I want to do. I don't need to end up in the same boat again. In the mean time, I am hanging in there with patience and prayer.
Do yourself a favor and keep your stress levels down by being as responsible as possible. Neglecting yourself or your responsibilities is going to make things worse and can throw you into a tailspin. If you go to church but haven't been going, go back. It helped me more than effexor ever could.
Posted by John2222 on November 26, 2003, at 17:56:44
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Enderkin on November 26, 2003, at 14:08:41
I was taking Effexor XR 112.5 each day for about a year. My approach to reducing with minimized agony was SLOW.
1. Reduce no more than 37.5 each time and stay at any new level for 2 weeks.
2. Or alternate 112.5 and 75 every other day for a week or two and then go to 75.
3. Then stay at 75 for a week or two.
4. Then reduce to 37.5 for two weeks (again alternating 75 and 37.5 if necessary)
5. Then go to heal food store and buy a bag of empty gel caps (they are cheap).
6. Put one half of the 37.5 in one gel cap and one half in the other.
7. Then reduce to 18.75 (approx) for two weeks.
8. Then alternate 18.75 one day and nothing the next day for two weeks.
9. Then either stop or alternate one day on and two days off for awhile.Seems like a long process, but the staggering really helped me.
The reason I stopped taking Effexor was that I felt much better and the higher levels of Effexor just made me want to sleep/nap all the time, although I must say it really really helped with anxiety and depression together.
Good luck. I personally think it is/was a good drug for me, but it is definately hard to tape off without discomfort.
John
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