![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 11:52:56
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 0:29:22
HI Katia,
Here's a good article:www.dbsalliance.org/Research/ResearchUpdate5.html
If you want to do more research, try searching on:
lithium+BDNF
(stands for Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor)or:
Husseini Manji
who is a doctor who is doing some very cutting edge research on BP and is probably the leader in the field right now. Most of what I've learned on mixed states is from his research.
Two other websites that are probably my favorites on depression/bipolar are:
www.mcmanweb.com
There are links at the top of the page that'll take you big-time into the subject.
Another is:
www.psycheducation.org
This one is a goldmine. There's alot of mixed states info in here, mostly based on Manji's research, but rephrased in easier to understand lingo. Each article has links to other articles. There's an interesting one on PCOS. Also, buried in in one of the article links is a very interesting study on 'dark therapy' as a therapy for rapid cycling. This is interesting because when I'm having a real bad time I'll pull the curtains and shut out the light. I've always thought this was unhealthy cause you need sun and I always thought it was a pathology of depression. But I always felt better after a few days of dark. Turns out it's a good thing and reduces agitated neurochemisty. Anyhow, I've spent hours exploring this site. Both sites keep up to date with new discoveries as well.
About glass(es) of D. Wow! After 5 days of abstaining I feel like a new woman. I kid you not. I'm sleeping without meds, waking up refreshed, feeling clearer, more energy, depression has improved termendously. I still get occasional feelings of doom and anxiety which is when I would turn to my glass(es), but now I've got the trust that it will pass and that alcohol will only make things worse in the long run. It's sooooo nice to wake up not feeling funky and headachey! I'm also not taking valium at all, but still keep it nearby as a security blanket. I'll also continue taking lithium (definitely for the BDNF boost) and lamictal, but feel that my improved brain chemistry will make them work better.
I'll check out the alcohol thread on Social. Thanks for the tip. Could you paste the web address link for one of the posts and I'll join in from there. - Barbara
> Do you have a resource re: lithium is good for anti-aging in the brain/axons/dendrites? Wasn't it you who said this? The metabolic guy said that as well. I'd like to read more about this. Who told you?
> It looks like maybe our conversation about the glass of dopamine spurred on a new group/substance abuse??? Barb, it's easy! if we ever get redirected, just follow it and we'll converse on different boards.
> thanks.
> katia
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 13:09:08
In reply to Redirect: talking lettuce, posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2003, at 17:45:45
HI Barb,
Here is the link and if it doesn't appear on this post; just go to the redirect one from Dr. Bob down below and click on it.
Thanks for the lithium info. I'll be sure to research it.
I'm sending you a post over at substance board; so be sure to pick it up!
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 15:09:58
In reply to Re: Redirect: talking lettuceBarbara, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 13:09:08
Hi you guys--
I'm feeling bad again. I feel like I've been conked over the head. SOOOOO sleepy and weepy. I cried and cried yesterday, and choked down food b/c I wasn't hungry. I wanted to break up with my boyfriend. My teeth have been clenched HARD for a couple of days. But I'm able to think more clearly (if that makes sense). But I'm feeling negative and a bit irritable. The only way I can relax and sleep at night is by taking a benzo. I can feel my teeth unclench, and slowly I drift into sleep.
Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with my mood. Feels a bit like PMS. BUT SLEEPY! I can't tell if its a medication feeling, or if I'm have "symptoms" of BP.
What's my point? I don't know. I just don't want to wear my friends out with my misery. (see--I can't follow my own advice!)
I know you guys will understand.
Katy
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 15:48:46
In reply to Re: I feel bad..., posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 15:09:58
Hi Miss Katy,
So sorry you're feeling badly. And I have noticed that you disappear from the board when you're in a bad way and show up more when you're in a good way. You're not wearing me out, I always miss you when you leave for a few days. That's what we're here for.Have you called your pdoc? I know that I went haywire on Depakote for the titration up to therapeutic dose and I told my pdoc about it. He said that actually has happened to a few other BP people and it's part of the titration. It could be what you're experiencing now (except with Li). You may just need time and the right dose before Li. kicks in. Your upness/anxiety may be from the Lamictal and the Li. hasn't activated yet?
Maybe call your doctor? This is really tough. It always feels like it's changing; nothing feels for certain. I understand.
big hug,
Katia
> Hi you guys--
>
> I'm feeling bad again. I feel like I've been conked over the head. SOOOOO sleepy and weepy. I cried and cried yesterday, and choked down food b/c I wasn't hungry. I wanted to break up with my boyfriend. My teeth have been clenched HARD for a couple of days. But I'm able to think more clearly (if that makes sense). But I'm feeling negative and a bit irritable. The only way I can relax and sleep at night is by taking a benzo. I can feel my teeth unclench, and slowly I drift into sleep.
>
> Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with my mood. Feels a bit like PMS. BUT SLEEPY! I can't tell if its a medication feeling, or if I'm have "symptoms" of BP.
>
> What's my point? I don't know. I just don't want to wear my friends out with my misery. (see--I can't follow my own advice!)
>
> I know you guys will understand.
>
> Katy
Posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 16:02:25
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 11:52:56
Hey Barb,
I checked out that website. and it looks like Lithium AND Depakote has these anti-aging qualities to them???? I wonder if I'm doing the right thing by coming off of Dep. I just don't like that polycyctic thing....
And I won't be coming off of it right away. Not even for four more weeks will I begin titrating downwards. I start Lamictal at 5mg and titrating up 5mg every two weeks. With the titrating schedule, I"ll be on Depa. for another 8 weeks! He's doing it very slowly. I think (I think) he's doing it b/c he wants to be safe (one) and (two) b/c he wants to see what Dep. will do for me while also appeasing me. I don't even get to 10mg of Lam. until three weeks from now! At week 8, i'll be at 50mg! I think he's being clever. He also says that depending on how I do on Depakote, he will be able to tell a lot about dxing and treatment plans to follow, regardless if we stay on Dep. I almost feel like I've taken the matter into my own hands and he's letting me in a way, but also being clever enough to experiment for awhile, possibly for my own good.
that's my take on it.
and btw, I have another crush on him!!! What's this about? I get nervous and giggly. I know this is something not about him, but transference related. But what if I geniunely have a crush on him without any transference issues? I know I know, redirect to social. if we talk anymore about it, just follow the link.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 16:23:02
In reply to Re: I feel bad..., posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 15:09:58
Oh booo and poo to those yucky feelings! Don't forget about Li making you tired at first. It goes away. You're taking Lamictal, right? Well, lithium is going to potentiate the lamictal and make each stronger. You may be getting that dose increase feeling. Everytime I went up with lamictal I felt unsettled. In fact, whatever you're on, the lithium is going to boost it's effects - it's known as 'the first-line augmentor', don't forget! Like a med turbo-charger - that's surely been my experience.
So hang in there and try not to feel bad because you're feeling bad and don't get scared because it's rough right now. It's to be expected while your chemistry is adjusting - up and down and all around. But you'll get through it soon. Praying and journaling helped me alot during my dark days. Journaling for me is better than talking to my therapist, but definitely talk to your pdoc and see if there's something short-term to get you through this blip. Some have said Zyprexa or pindolol helps. Just try not to drink during this time (whooo, you wanna REALLY feel bad?!) and you're warmly invited to join Katia and me in the Hopefully Abstaining Babblers Society (we sure would love your company and support). And who knows, maybe it IS pms! Luv and hugs, Barbara
> I'm feeling bad again. I feel like I've been conked over the head. SOOOOO sleepy and weepy. I cried and cried yesterday, and choked down food b/c I wasn't hungry. I wanted to break up with my boyfriend. My teeth have been clenched HARD for a couple of days. But I'm able to think more clearly (if that makes sense). But I'm feeling negative and a bit irritable. The only way I can relax and sleep at night is by taking a benzo. I can feel my teeth unclench, and slowly I drift into sleep.
>
> Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with my mood. Feels a bit like PMS. BUT SLEEPY! I can't tell if its a medication feeling, or if I'm have "symptoms" of BP.
>
> What's my point? I don't know. I just don't want to wear my friends out with my misery. (see--I can't follow my own advice!)
>
> I know you guys will understand.
>
> Katy
Posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 17:17:35
In reply to Re: I feel bad... » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 16:23:02
Hi Barb-cat--
Interesting take on my situation (the Li boosting the effects of Lam). Funny--I was thinking to myself--uuuuggg!--this is EXACTLY how I felt when I titrated up on my Lamictal dose--sleepy, wired, and a weird feeling of being unable to yawn--Is that hyperventillation?? And I AM about to start my period. So maybe it's a whole host of nasty things piling on top of one another. Just please, god, let me get through the class I have to teach this Tuesday, and the opening of an art exhibition I'm in. That's all I ask. Just those two things, and I'll be happy.
A wonderful friend of mine who's bipolar I told me last night (re: my irritation with my boyfriend). "You have your dark glasses on--I can tell. DO NOT make any big decisions feeling the way you do." Very good advice. Esp. considering that my BF is the only one who seems to have mercy on me when I feel bad.
Yes--I'm obviously still cycling!! I can tell from my posts. I hate that.
I see my doc this tuesday. I'll tell him what's happening.
Thanks for the encouragement. Hugs to you guys,
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 17:45:40
In reply to Re: I feel bad..., posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 17:17:35
>>--sleepy, wired, and a weird feeling of being unable to yawn--Is that hyperventillation??
**Funny you should ask. There is a thing called Hyperventilation Syndrome and it causes anxiety, depression, fatigue. It's when, from whatever reason, the Oxygen/CO2 balance is off and Ox is too high and CO2 too low which causes a screwup in intercellular calcium and blood pH. There are a couple books I've read on it because one of my main symptoms when I'm bouncing off the walls is not being able to take a full breath, and then I'll sigh alot. In fact, I do this alot no matter how I'm feeling because my tendency is to hold my breath in when I'm concentrating on something. Now, I've done yoga for years and I know breathing, but I was missing something until I found it described in the books!
Here's how to retrain things:
1. Slowly inhale from the nose from the lower lung area, front and back.
2. Slowly exhale from the nose completely and when you get to the end of the exhale
3. Pinch your nose to retain the air, but try not to tighten around it, just hold the air in for as long as you can. Count how many seconds you can hold it.
4. When you feel like you're going to burst, let the air back in, but do not gasp or gulp the air in, even though you'll want to. As slowly as possible, inhale through the nose (but don't torture yourself) otherwise the gasping/sighing in a big inhale will defeat the purpose.
5. Wait 5 minutes and then do it again. Wait another 5 minutes and do it again.
6. Practice this cycle once a day, gradually increasing the retention time.You'll probably start being able to retain your breath for less than 10 seconds. You're supposed to work up to around 30 seconds while sitting, and then work up to 30 seconds while walking. This is supposed to retrain the breathing reflex and rebalance the pH balance and OX/CO2 ratio. I haven't done it enough to say 'wow, it really works' because I don't remember it when I need it, but when I've done it I've been able to breathe normally, feel less anxious, and it even clears my sinuses. Worth giving a try for a while. I'm going to start doing it again. Wouldn't it be funny if something so simple could help alot?
Anyhow, don't lose the BF. Good luck with your show. Do this breathing retention before and it should really help with the anxiety (as long as you don't pass out - just kidding). - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 18:06:27
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 6, 2003, at 16:02:25
It sounds like your doctor is going about things with good sense. You never know what might happen when you add the lamictal. It might be just the spark depakote needs. Lithium sure didn't do it for me alone, but when I added the lamictal I felt a difference in a very short time.
Lithium and Dep both have that BDNF quality, but from other things I've read, lithium has other beneficial qualities as far as the ionic gates that Dep doesn't have. Don't ask me where I saw this, one of my surfing meanderings. Things change so quickly with the science, though, you should explore this further and let me know what you find out.
With lithium you have the thyroid problem. With Depakote the weight gain and PCOS. Take your pick.
I think this crush thing happens all the time and it's not necessarily transference. Hey, you got a nice guy who'se paying attention and cares about you, is smart and educated - good looking and funny is a bonus. What's to wonder? There aren't that many potential love interests who have all those qualities. You'll probably go 'EEEEK!' but consider talking about it with him. If you're acting blushy and giggly, he probably knows, and it would be good to get it out on the table (or HIM on the table - heh, heh. Oh no, did I say that?!). That's my two cents so Dr. Bob doesn't have to redirect us. Plus, we discussed meds plenty to make up for it. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 18:14:14
In reply to Re: I feel bad... » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 17:45:40
That's interesting info, Barbara. I wonder what the hyperventilation stuff has to do with psych meds? When I go to my doc, he asks me a host of questions about side effects. One of them is: Are you sighing or hyperventilating?
Either way--I've always sighed constantly. It weirds people out. They wonder if I'm impatient or pissed. I'm usually not--just relieving myself.
I'm gonna try it. Can't hurt. I think it's funny advice to NOT BREATHE. When you're upset, people are always saying--"just breathe--take deep breaths." Yoga has never helped me with breathing.
Thanks!
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 0:16:37
In reply to thanks for the breathing advice!, posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 18:14:14
I don't know why your doctor would ask you about sighing except for it may indicate depression. Maybe western medicine is hip to 'disordered breathing', a big contributor to mental imbalance, according to some yoga texts. In fact, some say that disordered breathing is the MAJOR contributor to mental imbalance. The texts go on to talk about irregular breathing, sighing, ragged in and outs, as severely imbalancing the nervous system. But most of what you hear about yogic breathing is the deep belly breathing stuff - take a deep breath. It's never done anything for me either and I've always felt that I didn't know how to do it right, even though I've been 'trying' to do it right for a long time. According to the info I read, the big inhale/oxygen saturation we're taught is proper deep breathing disrupts the pH and can bring on panic attacks and asthma symptoms. The reason we're told to breathe into a paper bag during a panic attack is to increase the carbon dioxide in the blood and bring the pH back to normal levels. Carbon dioxide is a good thing, despite what we're told about how bad it is and how good oxygen is. Surprised me. I guess we need the balance.
So now I've been paying more attention to breathing since hearing about this hyperventillation syndrome. I don't always get it right and sometimes feel like my diaphragm is locked up. But what's supposed to work for normal breathing to relax (not the holding the nose exercise which is more of a therapeutic workout and retraining) is to make the exhale about twice as long as the inhale and use the stomach muscles to wring out that last bit of air, but without forcing anything - just a kind of relaxed squeezing it out. Don't have to be anal with the count either. The idea is that you want to focus on the exhale and squeeze out as much of the stale air as possible, pause for a second or so, and then you don't have to even think about the inhale. It happens by itself and with the right amount of air just by releasing the abdomen after the exhale and short pause. It really is relaxing and clears the head. Plus you get a bonus ab workout.
The breathing is normally done through the nose, but a variation on it that I like alot is to put your tongue against your teeth and exhale from the mouth making a 'sssssss' sound like a steam kettle. Use a bit of resistance, in other words, don't let the air whoosh out too quickly, but make the exhale long and slow keeping the hissy sound even. Or you could purse your lips like you're blowing out a candle, again with a little resistance so that it doesn't come out too fast. Super relaxing, clearing, and gets you pleasantly high in a nice way! You can't expect to breathe like this all the time, but whenever you have a little time, like waiting in lines, at a stop light, or even devoting some time on a regular basis in the morning and eve, it will be a nice break.
I think it will help you, Katy, especially if you sigh alot. That sounds like a sure case of 'disordered breathing' to me that the yogi's speak of - having been there and done that myself. - Barbara
> That's interesting info, Barbara. I wonder what the hyperventilation stuff has to do with psych meds? When I go to my doc, he asks me a host of questions about side effects. One of them is: Are you sighing or hyperventilating?
>
> Either way--I've always sighed constantly. It weirds people out. They wonder if I'm impatient or pissed. I'm usually not--just relieving myself.
>
> I'm gonna try it. Can't hurt. I think it's funny advice to NOT BREATHE. When you're upset, people are always saying--"just breathe--take deep breaths." Yoga has never helped me with breathing.
>
> Thanks!
> Katy
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 1:00:30
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 6, 2003, at 18:06:27
yes, I agree about getting him, I mean :-), it on the table. It'll dissipate the energy. he probably knows anyway.
I just don't want to chance not being able to have kids and am worried about the Dep. If I feel extraordinarily wonderfully centered and have energy to function on the Dep/Lam combo, I may consider staying there. I realize that it's hard to find a good fit, so if that's it, maybe I'll take my chances with PCOS. I was just drawn to the Lamc.
I just get so exhausted so soon in the evening on Depakote. I have energy during the day and feel fine, but just burn out quickly. So quickly and so exhausted, it feels like I'm on the verge of a cold, but I"m not.
anyway!
ta ta
Katia
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 1:09:43
In reply to thanks for the breathing advice!, posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 18:14:14
I've actually had lots of experience with this as someone told me once that I was a shallow breather and was in a constant state of hyperventilation. I sigh all the time too. I researched it and found a great book "The Tao of Natural Breathing". It goes into how our emotional state totally effects our breathing and how our breathing is of utmost importance in digestion, blood ph, etc. etc. mood. In fact, a lot of depressed people have problems with digestion and also forget to breath. It's totally related. in brief, when we breathe properly, our diaphragm massages our digestive organs and helps with elimination and digestion. About 60-70% of toxic elimination is done thru' respiration. Depending on how much oxygen is getting into the blood and Co2, can depend if the blood is acidic or not (mine is). It goes on and on. Fascinating book - highly recommend it. I'd go and get it off my shelf and quote some more, but I'm too tired. I need beddy-by.
So if you sigh a lot, it is a sign that you are hyperventilating due to being a shallow breather. This book, among other things, a year and a half ago was one of the tell'tale signs to awaken me to the fact that I'd been depressed much of my life.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 12:32:33
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 1:00:30
Katia,
About the fatigue and other physical discomforts, can you definitely trace it to when you started taking Dep? Could there be something else going on? Digestion, hormones (there I go on that one again, however if you've had PCOS scare, maybe so), could be alot of things that don't have anything to do with meds. Maybe the meds exacerbate something already there.You know, I think I read something somewhere about Depakote affecting something physical, hence the PCOS connection. It would make sense that hormones would be implicated in PCOS since it's the reproductive system, don't you think? You mentioned your Scotland pregnancy. Was there a problem with the pregnancy that would make you suspect some kind of hormonal thing? From personal experience, I know how miserable any kind of hormonal imbalance can be. The little critters are such key players in our mind/body health.
I'll make myself a note and track the info down. Not to say that Dep is causing it, but maybe there's some other imbalance that's been there and is now coming out of hiding.
I sure don't think it's the Lam. I've read some medical literature that says it can cause drowsiness, but no real person who has ever taken it has ever complained about it being sedating - just the opposite. - Barbara
p.s.
> yes, I agree about getting him, I mean :-), it on the table.***Right as I clicked on the 'Submit Post' button I thought, 'Oh Jeez, I'll probably get blocked for that one'...
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 12:38:44
In reply to Re: thanks for the breathing advice! » fluffy, posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 1:09:43
That looks like a great book, Katia. I looked at the table of contents and really liked what I saw. I'm going to get it too. - Barbara
> I've actually had lots of experience with this as someone told me once that I was a shallow breather and was in a constant state of hyperventilation. I sigh all the time too. I researched it and found a great book "The Tao of Natural Breathing". It goes into how our emotional state totally effects our breathing and how our breathing is of utmost importance in digestion, blood ph, etc. etc. mood. In fact, a lot of depressed people have problems with digestion and also forget to breath. It's totally related. in brief, when we breathe properly, our diaphragm massages our digestive organs and helps with elimination and digestion. About 60-70% of toxic elimination is done thru' respiration. Depending on how much oxygen is getting into the blood and Co2, can depend if the blood is acidic or not (mine is). It goes on and on. Fascinating book - highly recommend it. I'd go and get it off my shelf and quote some more, but I'm too tired. I need beddy-by.
> So if you sigh a lot, it is a sign that you are hyperventilating due to being a shallow breather. This book, among other things, a year and a half ago was one of the tell'tale signs to awaken me to the fact that I'd been depressed much of my life.
> Katia
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 15:01:48
In reply to Re: thanks for the breathing advice! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 12:38:44
Great. It is a good book. Lots of good exercises in it too. I should pick it back up.
k.
Posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 16:41:27
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 12:32:33
I can pretty much associate the fatigue with the Depakote. Digestion thing has been going on for years. I have a distinct and sudden drop in energy and feel exhausted to the bones in the afternoon/evening. I guess the Lam. will energize me back up. But that's the wierd thing. I have the worst time falling asleep and feel that wired/tired thing going on. I get at least 6-7 hours on bad nights, so it's not much of a lack of sleep. On good nights, I sleep between 8-11 hours. I sleep too much, which is an odd mix into the picture. I have always needed sleep. Well, at least after I have been in my mid 20s. It's like I ran out of energy b/c I don't think I slept much late teens, early twenties. And since then, I just cannot go without sleep without losing the plot totally. I get out of balance sooooo quickly with little sleep. But then again, I've been medicated for the past year. Prior to that I was sleeping like 4-8 hours a night. utter insomniac. It may be med related. So 6-7 usually can be ok for me for a brief period, but somehow on Dep. it's sooo not enough. I'll just ride it out and see what the next day brings. consciousness is a funny thing - always changing perceptions....
Katia
> Katia,
> About the fatigue and other physical discomforts, can you definitely trace it to when you started taking Dep? Could there be something else going on? Digestion, hormones (there I go on that one again, however if you've had PCOS scare, maybe so), could be alot of things that don't have anything to do with meds. Maybe the meds exacerbate something already there.
>
> You know, I think I read something somewhere about Depakote affecting something physical, hence the PCOS connection. It would make sense that hormones would be implicated in PCOS since it's the reproductive system, don't you think? You mentioned your Scotland pregnancy. Was there a problem with the pregnancy that would make you suspect some kind of hormonal thing? From personal experience, I know how miserable any kind of hormonal imbalance can be. The little critters are such key players in our mind/body health.
>
> I'll make myself a note and track the info down. Not to say that Dep is causing it, but maybe there's some other imbalance that's been there and is now coming out of hiding.
>
> I sure don't think it's the Lam. I've read some medical literature that says it can cause drowsiness, but no real person who has ever taken it has ever complained about it being sedating - just the opposite. - Barbara
>
> p.s.
> > yes, I agree about getting him, I mean :-), it on the table.
>
> ***Right as I clicked on the 'Submit Post' button I thought, 'Oh Jeez, I'll probably get blocked for that one'...
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 20:13:02
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 7, 2003, at 16:41:27
Katia,
Here's something you might find interesting regarding the Depakote PCOS thing:http://www.psycheducation.org/hormones/Insulin/polycystic.htm
What I found interesting at this link was how Dep seemed to affect hormones in general, as in estrogen being twice normal after 6 months of use. There were also some refutes about it saying that other tests showed no difference between it and lithium in that regard. Anyway, there's alot here to digest.
I now remember what I read about the PCOS and hormones. It's the connection to insulin, or insulin resistance. It was in a number of books I've been reading on cortisol, high carb diets and mood, weight and hyperinsulemia and such. Did your metabolic tester correlate hyperinsulemia with your metabolic type and symptoms? What you said recently about tiredness, sleep problems, mood fluctuations, etc, sounds alot like a blood sugar disorder. I'm sure you've had all this checked out and you said that symptoms have started since Dep, but I wonder if your insulin could have been affected in some way since starting it, or maybe exacerbated an existing problem? Hope not, if Dep is going to work for you, but it's something to investigate, eh? And wouldn't it be loverly if all the crap was due to lousy blood sugar? I'm hot on the trail with that one myself. Oh, love the decomposed skunk blood image. Good thing I don't go for red wine or I'd really be tempted. -Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 20:19:19
In reply to thanks for the breathing advice!, posted by fluffy on September 6, 2003, at 18:14:14
Howzit going, girl? Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope your gallery event and talk went great. That's probably where you are, gadding about at celebratory post-show parties. Anyhow, we miss you!
Posted by Ponder on September 8, 2003, at 13:00:53
In reply to Re: Lami/Lith combo » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 12:32:33
In response to B-cat:
>I sure don't think it's the Lam. I've read some medical literature that says it can cause drowsiness, but no real person who has ever taken it has ever complained about it being sedating - just the opposite. - BarbaraDoesn't this just frost you? That's why PsychoBabble is so useful. Most psych docs prescribe based on the product circulars, look at you like crazy if you tell them you've had a different response, and it's damned hard to tell what really to expect from the initial clinical trials.
Posted by katia on September 8, 2003, at 14:25:41
In reply to Official Side-effects, posted by Ponder on September 8, 2003, at 13:00:53
hi,
yes, I agree. No one knows what will happen with s/e Ponder.BTW Barb, I haven't started the Lamcital yet b/c i'm starting all my suppelements (incl. L-Carnitine). So we've decided to wait a week.
My dep. will run out in two days and I'm finding it hard to get an rx filled! Doc has no samples. eek.
Katia
Posted by katia on September 9, 2003, at 14:46:07
In reply to Dep and PCOS » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 20:13:02
Hiya Barb,
Very interesting info I found out....
I was doing some research on L-Carn. b/c I wanted to find out if I should be taking it on Dep. I was sooooo racy yesterday. I woke up at 6:30 and went to bed the previous night at 1:30 for a total of 5 hours. I got a lot done and even worked. I was wondering if it had to do w/ L-Carn. or my mood swing.
Anyway, what I found out is ironically and coicindentally enough Depakote reduced L-Carnitine in people and when that happens, weight gain happens. So it's probably a very good thing to take while on dep.
Interesting huh?
gotta go. A depressed "no one loves me" doggie needs a walk right now.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 10, 2003, at 1:54:33
In reply to L-Carnitine and Depakote » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 9, 2003, at 14:46:07
Yes, very interesting! L-Carnitine is supposed to help control 'blood sugar' and slows down the absorption of carbs to be stored as fat. This all has to do with insulin levels. Carbs are stored in cells and can only be released by insulin. Once carbs are released, they become the glucose the body and brain runs on. If insulin receptors become desensitized though different means, carbs don't get released, don't get used for energy production, and end up getting stored as fat, causing a high free insulin blood level, blood sugar spikes, hypoglycemic symptoms, anxiety, fatigue, mental duhhhh, weight gain - sound familiar?
What I've been finding out through searching since we talked about all this is that Depakote negatively affects insulin - why or how I don't know yet - causing the same insulin resistance problems (hyperinsulemia) described above. Taking L-Carn makes alot of sense, since L-Carnitine supposedly prevents and reverses hyperinsulemia which would prevent the weight gain that bound up carbs cause. I'm running out and getting me some tomorrow!
This whole insulin/carbs thing is the main theory behind the Atkins diet, the Zone, all these low carb diets. This would be a great litmus test for L-carnitine, eh? But I wonder if Depakote somehow works because of this insulin effect thing and if L-Carn would interfere? Even so, best to know these things about these strange substances we take and hope and pray will make us feel better and hopefully not turn us into physical wrecks.
Of course, we don't know for sure that Depakote causes hyperinsulemia but there's alot of research saying it does. I wonder if the other 'porkogenic' meds cause weight gain through the same insulin connection. If so, this is something serious to look into. Hyperinsulemia is turning out to be a very bad thing - dangerous to the heart, Diabetes II, and not just a fat issue. - Barbara
> Hiya Barb,
> Very interesting info I found out....
> I was doing some research on L-Carn. b/c I wanted to find out if I should be taking it on Dep. I was sooooo racy yesterday. I woke up at 6:30 and went to bed the previous night at 1:30 for a total of 5 hours. I got a lot done and even worked. I was wondering if it had to do w/ L-Carn. or my mood swing.
> Anyway, what I found out is ironically and coicindentally enough Depakote reduced L-Carnitine in people and when that happens, weight gain happens. So it's probably a very good thing to take while on dep.
> Interesting huh?
> gotta go. A depressed "no one loves me" doggie needs a walk right now.
> Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 11:33:42
In reply to How's the Fluffsters? » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 20:19:19
Hi--I'm here.
You're sweet for noticing that I was "gone".I don't have internet access, and I can only do this while I'm at my job. I have a VERY low key job at a book shop, so I'm able to surf a lot.
Well, I got through the class I teach last night w/o a scratch. I didn't fumble too much w/ my words. The opening of the exhibition is tonight. And that shouldn't be too difficult.
My pdoc appointment yesterday was another story. My doc seems to think that I shouldn't be taking Lithium because I'm having severe cognitive side effects, even at a low dose. And I went hypomanic for about 4 days--super, super speedy and frenetic (while on the Li). I've been on it for almost two weeks now, and no significant improvements--if anything, I've had some setbacks. I tried to write a book review 3 days ago, and I couldn't even put sentences together. I have been stuttering, and I can't find words. I've been reminding myself 5 times why I'm walking into a room, and even then, sometimes I forget why I am there. WHAT TO DO???
He wanted to switch me right away to Zyprexa, Depakote or Trileptal. I decided to wait it out and see if it gets better. Last night, I slept on my own w/o the benzo. So at least that's good. But I still feel stupid. And now I'm getting the watery mouth (thirst) thing.
It is SUPER important to me to be able to have my memory and such (like I suppose it is to ANYONE). I decided to try the Li for another week or so to see if this all clears up. My doc said it was a sound decision--one that a normal clinician would make. He is somewhat radical as a researcher. And he admitted that he makes decisions more quickly than your normal psychiatrist.
Katia--if the Depakote WORKS, then count yourself lucky. Not everyone benefits from the same combos of meds. And if you find the right one or combo right away, then GREAT!
I'm caught up in the confusing and frustrating process of finding the final touch to stop this roller coaster--it SUCKS!!
Best to all,
Katy
Posted by katia on September 10, 2003, at 12:35:31
In reply to Re: How's the Fluffsters?, posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 11:33:42
Hi Fluffy, Barbara, etc.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what's what too. Sunday night I barely slept and Monday I had tons of energy. Monday I slept 11hrs and yesterday I could barely drag myself out of bed to run errands to just come crawling back to bed. Last night I slept 8 hours and feel fine today.
If the Depakote works doesn't matter b/c I'm so afraid of the PCOS and infertility and I'm certainly not losing weight by any means.
You've probably read some of the posts here, if you do go on Depakote, it may be worth your while to get some L-Carnitine. My pdoc wants to see how I do on Depakote for the next 8 weeks while I titrate slowly on Lamictal and then add Lithium (after coming off of Dep). He mentioned Trileptal sp? as a good one to try. I know that he said that it is similar to Tegretol, but with less side effects.For me, all I know is that I want something with an antidepressant quality as that's my main thing. Like yesterday. It was awful. I'm sick of hiding away from the world. When is there a good time to just go back into it? work-wise. I wait tables twice a week and am starting to loathe it and it's exhausting. I'm too old for this! And I am going 1000$ in the hole per month!
I know I'm not totally stable (of course not - I'll be when I find the right med/combo?) as I do impulsive things that make sense at the time, but then a day later I cringe. for instance, I walked out Friday from my pdoc's appt. w/o paying, I forgot and then I went back on Monday to pay with loads of literature on studies/research for my pdoc along with a four page poem that I had written 9 mos. or so ago. I thought it would help him understand me better. It made perfect sense to give it to him then, now I can't figure out why I did that? Stupid things that I'm so sure about at the time and just have to do them or perform the act and am quite adamant and stubborn about it, then a few hours/days and I can't believe I've done it!anyone else can relate? I'm not totally convinced that I'm BP. And I need for my pdoc to talk to me about things like giving him poems, leaving bizarre messages. How does he know that I am? It's all so confusing. I might just be agitated depressed. and the times I've experienced any type of mania was probably just my reaction for coming out of the depression cave. But I can relate so well to BP stories. I'm confused. And can dx's change over the years? And will I have to take meds for life?
I suppose I'll ask him all these questions.
Katia
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