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Posted by trucker on September 1, 2003, at 21:59:34
In reply to Zoloft killed my................., posted by galkeepinon on September 1, 2003, at 1:41:43
on lex the thing screems feed me, i now have a sex drive. so lex may well be for you too. i feel more like my ole self on lex than on anything else i have tried. and i have used zoloft, welbutrin, and zanax, and lexapro and lex is by far my favorite. so please unless you have a alergic reaction or some thing, try it my other half is now happy in the sex department..... and it isn't becauase there is some one else!!!
trucker
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> ........friend's sex life too;)
> Please dear high one-I don't wanna end up on that med then..............
>
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> > acording to my pdoc she says zoloft and lexapro are the same thing there is one extra ingreident in lex though. i went straight from zoloft to lex... in fact i took zoloft and lex at a reduced dose for a month so i didn't have the mental anxiety of switching. even though she said it was the same thing. i liked zoloft, but it killed my sex life...
> > good luck and take care
> > trucker
> >
> >
> >
> > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////> I went to the doctor on Friday and read him my list of side effects (insomnia, loss of appetite, teeth clenching, feeling like a zombie, the shakes). And considering the semester started last Monday for my senior year in college, I really want to get these side effects under control, especially the insomnia. He told me to stop taking the Lexapro, wait two weeks, and then start Zoloft. Anyone have any expeience with this? I'm also thinking of just not taking the medication and continue working with the school counselor. I have a hunch it might be better for me to talk though my problems (molested by the babysitter's husband when I was 8, and drugged and raped by my best friend Matt when I was 16) even though it will probably take longer and emotionally hurt a lot. I'm just really confused- it sometimes feels like being on an anti depressant is worse than just being depressed.
> >
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Posted by gail_jo on September 2, 2003, at 1:20:49
In reply to re: Wellbutrin and Zyban » OceanMist, posted by lil' jimi on August 15, 2003, at 12:14:17
> hi OceanMist!
>
> > Hello again all,
> > My doctor gave me a script for Wellbutrin SR 150mg, to curb the side effects of the Lexapro, and said to take it in the evening....
> > My pharmasist gave me zyban, and said it was the same thing.
> > Can you all tell me....Is there a difference?
> > I heard there are major insomnia with this, bad enough I have it with my Lexapro, that is why I take it in the A.M. and here she wants me to take it in the Evening?
> > I am only on my 4th day on the "Zyban" and notice no difference at all, unlike with the Lexapro I notice big changes immediately.
> > Thanks
> >
>
> i have to hope other folks will let us in on their Wellbutrin experiences .... .... or we may have to go looking for them ... ... there are more than a few folks using lex with Wellbutrin .... this is such a common approach that it sometimes goes by its own name "WellLex" ... or something like that anyway ...
> ... ... however, i have no experience with wellbutrin, although my wife took it for a while a long time ago ....
>
> ... meanwhile, i looked up Zyban and found out it is the brand name for Bupropion labeled for smoking cessation, but not to worry ... looking up Wellbutrin reveals it is the brand name for, you guessed it, Bupropion, labeled for ... mental health .... so they are the same.
>
> take care!
> ~ jimHave been reading this thread for a while and learning a lot. I have been taking Wellbutrin SR 300mg/day for one year, mostly to help with what I thought was minor depression and to help with weight loss. In the meantime my daughters (21 and 18) have both been diagnosed (by a psychiatrist at my insistence)with ADD and depression. The youngest one also possibly with bipolar II. Well. That explained a lot - they are young adults and quite successful, but their paths have always been strewn with difficulties. After doing intensive research, I've come to realize that there is much familial contribution from both my husband's family (ADHD)and my own (depression and possibly bipolar stuff)
I discontinued the Wellbutrin during the discovery phases of my daughters' diagnoses, thinking I didn't really notice much of an effect so probably didn't need it. Wow! The stress of everything must have just tipped me over into a major depression. So I had a heart to heart with my family physician (not the psych doc - no mental health coverage with our medical plan) and he started me on Lexapro 10 mg/day in addition to resuming the Wellbutrin (150 mg once a day for the first week, then twice a day with a minimum of 8 hrs between doses thereafter.
Have had some SE's, but smooth sailing seems to be the case now. The Wellbutrin tends to help me focus and stay on top of my day while staying pretty calm, then I take the Lexapro in the early evening and sleep very well, much better than I have for a long time. I had been using Melatonin 3mg at the Rx of a naturopath which really did help get me to sleep, but didn't stay asleep all night. I've discontinued it as the Lexapro seems to be helping in that area.
I've gained some weight back, but attribute that to a knee injury that has sidelined my cardio/weight training program for a while.
Keep up the thread, it's so helpful to hear how others are handling their health/meds.
If anyone else has experience with lexapro and wellbutrin sr in combination, I would really like to hear from you.
Thanks!
gail_jo
Posted by koko on September 2, 2003, at 13:59:47
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects » postpartum mama, posted by galkeepinon on August 31, 2003, at 20:29:46
Today is day #9 on 10 mg. Day number 1-5 were HORRIBLE with SE's. I experienced Nausea, Dizziness, Fatigue, and feelings of hyperactivity. These feelings would come to me interchangeably and in waves. One moment I would feel absolutely fine and the next moment I would want to crawl right under my desk. On day 6, I thought that I might be noticing a very slight reduction in the SE's, however I questioned if it was wishful thinking or if I was building up a tolerance. But I can now report that the SE's, although are still here, have subsided drastically since the first few days. And I am becoming hopeful, if not down right excited, to be past this point all together and to begin reaping the benefits of Lex.
So, this post is to encourage anyone out there who is putting off starting Lex out of fear of the SE's to NOT be afraid. And anyone who may be in their first, second, or third day of Lex and feeling like the world may end; hang tough. The SE's do subside.
And mostly I want to extend my gratitude to all of you wonderful souls that come to this board everyday to encourage and support those of us who are just now embarking on the journey that you began months ago. You have been such a tremendous support for me during this transition. May you know that you have made a difference in the life of a total stranger. Thank you.
~Koko
Posted by Arrianna on September 2, 2003, at 15:22:56
In reply to Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE, posted by koko on September 2, 2003, at 13:59:47
Koko:
So happy to hear that it's getting better for you on the Lexapro! That's great.
I've been on 10mg. of Lex for 2 months now, and almost forgot about the awful side effects I had. Your post put in perspective for me how far I have come on the Lex. Thank You.
You'll reach the point, too, where you'll experience the full benefits of it, too!!
Thanks and wishing you continued success.
Arrianna
Posted by jdgjdg on September 2, 2003, at 18:13:44
In reply to Re: Teeth Grinding on Lex., posted by sassyveg on September 1, 2003, at 16:13:46
Wow...I feel so lucky. I have had no bad side effects on the Lexapro. I take 20 of Lex and 400 of Wellbutrin for OCD and depression. The only thing I've noticed about the Lexapro is increased sweating and night sweats. I used to grind my teeth at night without the Lexapro from so much anxiety. I'm sure it will go away soon. Hang in there, Lexapro is so much better than the others.
Posted by jdgjdg on September 2, 2003, at 18:19:27
In reply to Re: stopping Lexapro... doctor wants me to try Zoloft » collegekid, posted by Mariposa on September 1, 2003, at 11:22:15
I took Zoloft in high doses for OCD(500mg). I would try and stick out the Lexapro if you can. If you had bad side effects with the Lexapro, I don't want to think about what the Zoloft will do. Also, the withdrawl from the Zoloft is very bad. If you've only been taking it for a few weeks and you can tolerate the side effects, I'd try it for atleast another month considering the side effects generally taper off with time. Have you tried lowering your dose? Maybe you need to gradually build up. You can crush your pills. What did your doctor start you out on? Anything above 10mg would be too much. I'd ask your doctor if you can take half the dosage you were taking of the lexapro for a few weeks and try to build up to the normal starting dosage. I think it will be worth it for you.
Posted by jdgjdg on September 2, 2003, at 18:22:44
In reply to Re: Lexapro dosage questions? Why was I taking so much » jc12578, posted by trucker on September 1, 2003, at 1:16:37
Your doctor gave you too much to start with. I'm on 20mg now and had to drop from 30mg because of s/e. All of those drugs need to be gradually increased for everyone. I think 10mg is probably standard. Be careful next time. It sounds like your doctor is very aware that he made a mistake but doesn't want to admit it.
Posted by collegekid on September 2, 2003, at 21:19:25
In reply to Re: stopping Lexapro... doctor wants me to try Zoloft, posted by jdgjdg on September 2, 2003, at 18:19:27
I have gradually been weening myself off the Lexapro and I'm not noticing any side effects or problems from it. I started the Lexapro about four or five weeks ago. I started at 5mg and after 14 days went up to 10 mg as per my doctor's advice. I was taking them when I woke up in the morning, usually around 6 am (which was not fun since I usually couldn't fall asleep til 3 am). When I increased the dosage I didn't notice any change in side effects.
I think my biggest concern is that when I'm medicated, I feel like I don't have control over my emotions: I feel like a zombie. Granted, I'm generally in a good mood, but that's only because no other emotions seem like they are available. Example, while I was on the Lexapro, a friend of mine passed away, and I was physically not able to cry. I know it sounds silly to complain about not being able to cry. But there is a time and place for every emotion. I just feel like while I'm on any anti-depressant, I will not have a say in what emotions I experience. If I'm going to be happy, I want it to be for a reason, not because a pill is chemically reacting with my brain. I guess this is all me being stubborn. Regardless, I still haven't made up my mind as to whether I will start the Zoloft or not.
Posted by jc12578 on September 2, 2003, at 21:28:08
In reply to Re: Lexapro dosage questions? Why was I taking so much, posted by jdgjdg on September 2, 2003, at 18:22:44
well everyone jovially wrote off the suicide attempt on it...and the fact that i shoved my head through the wall...and for the SE's it's been about 2 years since I have been able to achieve climax...I have kind of put that aside to being sane...then i will worry about sex
Posted by lexaprofessional on September 3, 2003, at 10:36:59
In reply to Anyone switched to Lexapro? « ggrrl, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 7:52:48
I started with lexapro about a month ago. I switched over from paxil, which among other things, caused me to gain about 15 pounds. I havnt seen any weight loss yet with lexapro. I wanted to know if anyone has gained or lost weight as a side effect of this drug or if they have any information on it. Thanks everyone.
Posted by Esmarelda on September 3, 2003, at 11:53:52
In reply to Questions about weight gain, posted by lexaprofessional on September 3, 2003, at 10:36:59
I lost a little weight with Lexapro probably because it decreased my appetite. Actually, it made me throw up a few times at first along with all the anxiety I was experiencing. All in all, I didn't lose that much and haven't gained any. I have been taking 10 mg on week 13 now.
Now - A question for someone, the past few days I have been experiencing a tinge of anxiety (barely what I used to before the Lex). Is this the beginning of "poop out" and do I need to consider upping the dosage a little, or, is this just normal? I still feel good - just a tad of anxiety which I have not had it awhile now.
Posted by jacy on September 3, 2003, at 12:03:58
In reply to Anyone switched to Lexapro? « ggrrl, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 7:52:48
Is there a side effect of hallucinations on Lexapro? I have experienced some weird flashes, but I have been on it for 2 months.
Posted by Mariposa on September 3, 2003, at 15:29:57
In reply to Questions about weight gain, posted by lexaprofessional on September 3, 2003, at 10:36:59
> I started with lexapro about a month ago. I switched over from paxil, which among other things, caused me to gain about 15 pounds. I havnt seen any weight loss yet with lexapro. I wanted to know if anyone has gained or lost weight as a side effect of this drug or if they have any information on it. Thanks everyone.
I lost 10 lbs. most within first month.
Posted by Mariposa on September 3, 2003, at 15:33:55
In reply to Re: Questions about weight gain, posted by Esmarelda on September 3, 2003, at 11:53:52
> Now - A question for someone, the past few days I have been experiencing a tinge of anxiety (barely what I used to before the Lex). Is this the beginning of "poop out" and do I need to consider upping the dosage a little, or, is this just normal? I still feel good - just a tad of anxiety which I have not had it awhile now.This happened at about 4 months for me, saw pdoc near end of 5th mo. and he upped my dose to 20mg. Into 6th mo. and doing better.
Good luck!~~~8|8
Posted by Esmarelda on September 3, 2003, at 15:38:01
In reply to Re: Questions about weight gain » Esmarelda, posted by Mariposa on September 3, 2003, at 15:33:55
Thanks. I have an appointment with my regular doc in a couple of weeks. If my anxiety continues, I'll talk it over with my therapist and then get him to up the dosage. Otherwise, doing great on the Lex once it kicked in!
Posted by lil' jimi on September 3, 2003, at 16:26:54
In reply to Re: Anyone switched to Lexapro? « ggrrl, posted by jacy on September 3, 2003, at 12:03:58
hi jacy,
>> Is there a side effect of hallucinations on Lexapro? I have experienced some weird flashes, but I have been on it for 2 months. >>
whereas, based on reading this thread, in genral, i _think_ , the answer would be,
"No." ....
however ...last week i got so busy i missed my regular noontime 10 mg dose ... until i remembered the next morning, when i took a make-up dose at about 6 AM ... then things got pretty halucinatory there for a while, but nothing too bad, i wouldn't say, although i was rather "trippy" ... depersonalized, de-realized ... ... it wasn't incapacitating or dis-orienting, or really even unpleasant at all, in a getting high kind of a way ...
... ... my anticipation of this 'catching up on my serotnin levels' event could account for my positive response to this se ...
... but it would have been something i could have called a "weird flash", if i had not seen it coming and leveraged it with a postive attitude ... which i would not expect anyone else to have, without having my weird (not so weird?) drug history ... along with the serenity to just sit back and enjoy the ride ... ...... ... oh! ... did i say 'serenity' ?
... ... i _meant_ "senility" ! .... HA!... now, for you , jacy ... ... is this anything like what you were referring to as "hallucinations" ?
... or am i way off here?also, be sure to update your prescriber about your SE(s) ... ... good, bad, or indifferent, you are going to want to get their feedback about this ...
TAKE CARE !!!
~ jim
Posted by tm on September 3, 2003, at 19:14:25
In reply to Re: Questions about weight gain, posted by Esmarelda on September 3, 2003, at 15:38:01
Went back to the PDOC today because I felt the fringes of anxiety coming back. That started on July 14. I had already raised my Xanax dose back to .75 mg 4x a day. Still had the fringes but have felt some what better at times. The bottom line is he raised my level of Lex from 20mg to 25mg. 8/8 did you experience any SE's when your dose was raised? Esmarelda you sound like you are at the same spot I am, I will let you know how it does for me.
Thanks Tim
Posted by ELENI4 on September 3, 2003, at 21:59:56
In reply to Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE, posted by koko on September 2, 2003, at 13:59:47
> Today is day #9 on 10 mg. Day number 1-5 were HORRIBLE with SE's. I experienced Nausea, Dizziness, Fatigue, and feelings of hyperactivity. These feelings would come to me interchangeably and in waves. One moment I would feel absolutely fine and the next moment I would want to crawl right under my desk. On day 6, I thought that I might be noticing a very slight reduction in the SE's, however I questioned if it was wishful thinking or if I was building up a tolerance. But I can now report that the SE's, although are still here, have subsided drastically since the first few days. And I am becoming hopeful, if not down right excited, to be past this point all together and to begin reaping the benefits of Lex.
> So, this post is to encourage anyone out there who is putting off starting Lex out of fear of the SE's to NOT be afraid. And anyone who may be in their first, second, or third day of Lex and feeling like the world may end; hang tough. The SE's do subside.
> And mostly I want to extend my gratitude to all of you wonderful souls that come to this board everyday to encourage and support those of us who are just now embarking on the journey that you began months ago. You have been such a tremendous support for me during this transition. May you know that you have made a difference in the life of a total stranger. Thank you.
> ~KokoThat's great you were able to stick with it. I took my first dose this past Thursday and was fine although my legs felt a little heavy. However Friday's dose kicked my ass. The Lexapro made my nose a little stuffy so I took some Benadryl...big mistake. I slept ALL DAY AND NIGHT on Friday and finally woke up on Sat at 2pm. During the two hrs I was awake on Fri, I also had heart palpitations and a rapid heart beat in addition to obvious tiredness and some weakness. I also had triansient muscle pain and muscle twitches. I told my doctor this, but she attributed the tiredness to the Benadryl and the muscle pain to my playing around in a swimming pool for about 30 minutes the day before. However I don't believe it since Benadryl makes me tired, but not THAT tired. Also 30 minutes of very slight activity in a pool is not enough to make my muscles hurt. She knows I have anxiety and as a result, I think she was more willing to just shrug off my complaints. Also I had a fever and a sore throat on Sat and Sun, which may or may not be related...have no idea. I didn't even get to tell her about that or the palpitations. I was too rushed. Now I'm scared to continue this medication and my doctor ignoring my concerns only serves to make it worse. She thinks I should continue the Lexapro while I think I should cut my losses and try something else. The pharmacists I consulted agree with me, that it's not worth those kind of side effects. Has anyone experienced anything similar to what I described? They seem like serious side effects, but I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Should I be concerned about giving the medication another shot? I'm really hesitant to do this since two days of medicine caused four days of Hell.
Posted by hog80ci on September 3, 2003, at 22:51:28
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE, posted by ELENI4 on September 3, 2003, at 21:59:56
My two cents worth:-) Today is day 7 of 20mg and 13 days total on lex. I don't remember keeping such close track of meds before. Maybe it's because I found this little forum. Anyway...nausea is gone, still clenching my teeth a lot and need to be concious of that. Pretty hyper too and having a hard time sleeping. Doc said I can take just 10mg for a few more days if I want. I'm trying to just ride this out. I think it will be worth it in the end.
Take care
Jim
Posted by Arrianna on September 4, 2003, at 0:08:46
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE, posted by hog80ci on September 3, 2003, at 22:51:28
Hey Jim:
Your positive attitude sounds good!! This will pass and it will keep getting better for you. I am now on month 2 of 10mg Lex. and most, if not all of my side effects are gone!! I don't even clench my teeth anymore! I had the bad teeth grinding, too, but after about week 7, it got so much better.
Take care,
Arrianna
Posted by Mariposa on September 4, 2003, at 9:34:40
In reply to Esmarelda--8/8 Wayne, posted by tm on September 3, 2003, at 19:14:25
> Went back to the PDOC today because I felt the fringes of anxiety coming back. That started on July 14. I had already raised my Xanax dose back to .75 mg 4x a day. Still had the fringes but have felt some what better at times. The bottom line is he raised my level of Lex from 20mg to 25mg. 8/8 did you experience any SE's when your dose was raised? Esmarelda you sound like you are at the same spot I am, I will let you know how it does for me.
>
> Thanks TimI only noticed a slight diziness a couple of hours after taking dose, and only for 3 days. Considering I had it so rough in the beginning, I would have to say it was almost *painless*.
Good luck and keep us posted!~~~8|8
Posted by altair on September 4, 2003, at 9:39:10
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE » hog80ci, posted by Arrianna on September 4, 2003, at 0:09:11
I must be the only person who's been negativly effected by anti-depressants. Ive been on two different kinds...celexa and now lexapro. I'm getting off lexapro now and dealing with the horrible side effects associated with it.
Forgive my jaded opinions about this drug and others like it, but I really am concerned by the apparent over use of these medications. I NEVER should have been given these meds. I dealt w/ lifes problems just fine before, save the slight bump in the road last year when I found out I had hiv. So yeah it helped for the depression associated w/ that but give me a break. Had I known about the withdrawals and weight gain I would never had consented to this drug. I've gained 15 pounds on these drugs and I hardly eat...for someone with a history of eating disorders this makes my life worse. I put these drugs in the same category as cocaine speed etc...how is my life benefiting from FDA sanctioned addiction?
All this drug has given me is heart ache and suicidal tendencies which I NEVER experienced before. Why bother fighting a "war on drugs" if our government approves the distribution of drugs that are as dangeruous as common street drugs.
Sorry but this kind of malpractice just pisses me off...but I do have a question.......
How long does the withdrawals last? Ive been slowly taking myself off of lexapro for 3 weeks and am down to 2.5 mg a day from 10mg when i started.
Posted by Mariposa on September 4, 2003, at 9:42:17
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE, posted by ELENI4 on September 3, 2003, at 21:59:56
> > Today is day #9 on 10 mg. Day number 1-5 were HORRIBLE with SE's. I experienced Nausea, Dizziness, Fatigue, and feelings of hyperactivity. These feelings would come to me interchangeably and in waves. One moment I would feel absolutely fine and the next moment I would want to crawl right under my desk. On day 6, I thought that I might be noticing a very slight reduction in the SE's, however I questioned if it was wishful thinking or if I was building up a tolerance. But I can now report that the SE's, although are still here, have subsided drastically since the first few days. And I am becoming hopeful, if not down right excited, to be past this point all together and to begin reaping the benefits of Lex.
> > So, this post is to encourage anyone out there who is putting off starting Lex out of fear of the SE's to NOT be afraid. And anyone who may be in their first, second, or third day of Lex and feeling like the world may end; hang tough. The SE's do subside.
> > And mostly I want to extend my gratitude to all of you wonderful souls that come to this board everyday to encourage and support those of us who are just now embarking on the journey that you began months ago. You have been such a tremendous support for me during this transition. May you know that you have made a difference in the life of a total stranger. Thank you.
> > ~Koko
>
> That's great you were able to stick with it. I took my first dose this past Thursday and was fine although my legs felt a little heavy. However Friday's dose kicked my ass. The Lexapro made my nose a little stuffy so I took some Benadryl...big mistake. I slept ALL DAY AND NIGHT on Friday and finally woke up on Sat at 2pm. During the two hrs I was awake on Fri, I also had heart palpitations and a rapid heart beat in addition to obvious tiredness and some weakness. I also had triansient muscle pain and muscle twitches. I told my doctor this, but she attributed the tiredness to the Benadryl and the muscle pain to my playing around in a swimming pool for about 30 minutes the day before. However I don't believe it since Benadryl makes me tired, but not THAT tired. Also 30 minutes of very slight activity in a pool is not enough to make my muscles hurt. She knows I have anxiety and as a result, I think she was more willing to just shrug off my complaints. Also I had a fever and a sore throat on Sat and Sun, which may or may not be related...have no idea. I didn't even get to tell her about that or the palpitations. I was too rushed. Now I'm scared to continue this medication and my doctor ignoring my concerns only serves to make it worse. She thinks I should continue the Lexapro while I think I should cut my losses and try something else. The pharmacists I consulted agree with me, that it's not worth those kind of side effects. Has anyone experienced anything similar to what I described? They seem like serious side effects, but I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Should I be concerned about giving the medication another shot? I'm really hesitant to do this since two days of medicine caused four days of Hell.Believe it or not my experience w/initial se's was much worse than what you describe. I did not take Ben., had all of your se's, plus a long list of others. I called in sick to work whole second week because I couldn't get off the couch. I stuck with it w/encouragement from this board, and se's DID go away as eveyone said they would. Now I am doing SO MUCH better and glad I toughed it out. If you have already taken Lex for 10 days or more, you should consider continuing, as the worst is about over.
Best of luck!~~~8|8
Posted by Esmarelda on September 4, 2003, at 10:46:04
In reply to Esmarelda--8/8 Wayne, posted by tm on September 3, 2003, at 19:14:25
Hey Tim! Yes, it does sound like we are in the same spot. My therapist recommended that I go ahead and take 5 more mg which I did for the first time this morning. I had another death in my family day before yesterday and have been upset about that, but I felt the anxiety even before my uncle died. I will let everyone know how I do. I don't take anything for anxiety, but once the Lex started working. It seemed to take care of the problem. Fran
Mariposa - did you have any SE's when you upped your dosage?
Posted by Esmarelda on September 4, 2003, at 10:53:41
In reply to Re: Lexapro side-effects and UPDATE » ELENI4, posted by Mariposa on September 4, 2003, at 9:42:17
I guess I was extremely lucky because I never had any really serious side effects and didn't know I had any until I started reading this board. I did not experience ANY until after I had been taking lex about a week. I got really depressed and anxious - but at the same time I also discovered my ex who was trying to get back with me was seeing someone else -- so who knows if it was the Lex or what. I had 1 solitary spell of dizziness that lasted for a few seconds, some nausea and some diarrhea, but nothing severe. I still am very, very tired when I wake up in the morning and I also take Benadryl almost every night to sleep -- maybe it's the combination of the two?? Who knows.
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