![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 26 to 50 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by Maxime on June 24, 2003, at 17:47:53
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by ELENI4 on June 24, 2003, at 12:12:04
Fine. Do you know what I do all day? I work with youths with drug addiction problems. If they are lucky enough to have any family who cares about them, I work with the families as well.
That is what I do. That is what I have my Phd in. That is what I have devoted my life to.I am losing "clients" all the time to drug ODs. Last week a young woman had taken some LSD and thought she could fly. She is now dead. I see young adults who are brain damaged from the amount of drugs they have taken.
So yes, I have a problem when people ask what will happen if I take this with that. There are over 17,000 drug related deaths each year in the U.S.
And I do believe that it should be out in the open. I do believe we should be discussing the problem and making it as public as possible. I don't think here is place.
If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking.
Just my 2 cents.
Max
Posted by Viridis on June 24, 2003, at 20:55:52
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by Maxime on June 24, 2003, at 17:47:53
Hi Maxime,
You said:
"If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking".
I understand what you're saying, and I think the work you're doing is a great service to the community. But if use of a prescription drug amplifies the risks already associated with street drugs, then shouldn't people be made aware? The alternative is that people on prescription meds (especially MAOIs) might think, what the hell, I'll do some X (or whatever). You work in drug counseling and crisis management -- maybe a few crises could be averted with the right advice.
Again, I'd draw the line at a post that advocated mixing prescribed and illicit drugs, but surely those that emphasize the dangers are most likely to reduce the chances of substance abuse, the goal that you're aiming for in your work.
Posted by indivmed on June 24, 2003, at 21:34:34
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by Maxime on June 24, 2003, at 17:47:53
> Fine. Do you know what I do all day? I work with youths with drug addiction problems. If they are lucky enough to have any family who cares about them, I work with the families as well.
> That is what I do. That is what I have my Phd in. That is what I have devoted my life to.
>
> I am losing "clients" all the time to drug ODs. Last week a young woman had taken some LSD and thought she could fly. She is now dead. I see young adults who are brain damaged from the amount of drugs they have taken.
>
> So yes, I have a problem when people ask what will happen if I take this with that. There are over 17,000 drug related deaths each year in the U.S.
>
> And I do believe that it should be out in the open. I do believe we should be discussing the problem and making it as public as possible. I don't think here is place.
>
> If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> MaxMax--
I know exactly how you feel when it comes to working with at-risk youth...I myself was raised in a household where the police were called often and my father tried to cut my door down with a chainsaw one night because I locked it to keep his crazy ass out. Both my parents were raging alcoholics, my dad is now addicted to OxyContin, and I have had to teach myself everything (a LOT of therapy).
I taught high school for two years and the biggest problem that was faced is that there was not HONEST, OPEN talk about what was REALLY going on...just sweep it under the rug, it'll go away. I taught chemistry and physics for two years and even did an at-risk youth camp for two summers. I absolutely loved working with these youths and yes, I saw a lot of very terrifying, and gut-wrenching things. For the most part, most of these kids were very ignorant about a lot of different subjects, especially substance abuse, mental health, their true worth, etc.
It's kind of like religion in the middle east. If you keep a tight reign on what you want the religion to say politically, people will do the craziest things. I would venture to say that 90% of the world has no idea what their philosophy/religion even preaches in the first place--they just listen to what someone else defines for them, strap on some explosives, and become a martyr.
I feel the same about drugs, alcohol, and mental health. Not talking about it will make it worse---and we want to just talk about the evils of it all. Which is not the case...what sort of evil is associated with true love and the expression of it?...yet, we're so quick to degrade sex addicts. It's just the intention and most of us are at fault for defining everything in black and white terms...god knows my students couldn't think for themselves.
I think responsible drug use (hopefully not with psychotropics) can be a positive experience...and I think irresponsible drug use can be a very negative experience with some awful consequences. I just don't understand why this had become such an issue on this post...it's a very gray area and I think the polarization of thinking is EXACTLY what is wrong with our social system today.
Rick
**By the way, congrats on the PhD--I'm hard at work on my PhD in Chemical Physics (mathematically modeling small neurotransmitter fluctuations that give rise to enzymatic reactions). So in a way, my past has already primed me for a life of meaning.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 24, 2003, at 22:41:28
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by indivmed on June 24, 2003, at 21:34:34
> > Fine. Do you know what I do all day? I work with youths with drug addiction problems. If they are lucky enough to have any family who cares about them, I work with the families as well.
> > That is what I do. That is what I have my Phd in. That is what I have devoted my life to.
> >
> > I am losing "clients" all the time to drug ODs. Last week a young woman had taken some LSD and thought she could fly. She is now dead. I see young adults who are brain damaged from the amount of drugs they have taken.
> >
> > So yes, I have a problem when people ask what will happen if I take this with that. There are over 17,000 drug related deaths each year in the U.S.
> >
> > And I do believe that it should be out in the open. I do believe we should be discussing the problem and making it as public as possible. I don't think here is place.
> >
> > If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Max
>
> Max--
>
> I know exactly how you feel when it comes to working with at-risk youth...I myself was raised in a household where the police were called often and my father tried to cut my door down with a chainsaw one night because I locked it to keep his crazy ass out. Both my parents were raging alcoholics, my dad is now addicted to OxyContin, and I have had to teach myself everything (a LOT of therapy).
>
> I taught high school for two years and the biggest problem that was faced is that there was not HONEST, OPEN talk about what was REALLY going on...just sweep it under the rug, it'll go away. I taught chemistry and physics for two years and even did an at-risk youth camp for two summers. I absolutely loved working with these youths and yes, I saw a lot of very terrifying, and gut-wrenching things. For the most part, most of these kids were very ignorant about a lot of different subjects, especially substance abuse, mental health, their true worth, etc.
>
> It's kind of like religion in the middle east. If you keep a tight reign on what you want the religion to say politically, people will do the craziest things. I would venture to say that 90% of the world has no idea what their philosophy/religion even preaches in the first place--they just listen to what someone else defines for them, strap on some explosives, and become a martyr.
>
> I feel the same about drugs, alcohol, and mental health. Not talking about it will make it worse---and we want to just talk about the evils of it all. Which is not the case...what sort of evil is associated with true love and the expression of it?...yet, we're so quick to degrade sex addicts. It's just the intention and most of us are at fault for defining everything in black and white terms...god knows my students couldn't think for themselves.
>
> I think responsible drug use (hopefully not with psychotropics) can be a positive experience...and I think irresponsible drug use can be a very negative experience with some awful consequences. I just don't understand why this had become such an issue on this post...it's a very gray area and I think the polarization of thinking is EXACTLY what is wrong with our social system today.
>
> Rick
>What exactly do you mean "hopefully not with psychotropics"? Aren't all psychoactive drugs considered "psychotropics"?
Anyway... I agree with you that drug use can be a positive thing - particularly in the case of psychedellics and/or marijuana. Of course, they can be negative things as well... but that is how life goes, there are two sides to everything. I also believe opiates/opiods would be virtually harmless drugs if they were legal. No dangerous cutting agents, prescisely measured and KNOWN dosages, etc. And of course natural opiates and semi-synthetic opiods are compeltely safe drugs to the physical self - no organ damge, etc. That certainly can't be said for alcohol.
And maxime... I agree with what Viridis said... while questions about mixing something like MAOIs and MDMA might not appear very intelligent, letting a person know the dangers is still important and could save someone's life.
Posted by lil' jimi on June 25, 2003, at 11:24:18
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by Maxime on June 24, 2003, at 17:47:53
hi Max,
it has been very hard on me that you (continue to) repudiate the notion of permitting the discussion of things of which we disapprove.
when, especially as a professional, your level of vehemence would belie the compassion you feel for your clients.
IF
we were to imagine the possibility that our fellow poster, Craig,
could be
(if only for this discussion’s sake)
one of your clients,
who might be so misguided,
despite your best efforts,
and
that he were to come here
and
ask the question Craig asked,
.... ....
THEN would you really want us to ignore his plight
... ... his peril
... ... and just tell him to go away?
... ... ... would you suggest that he be blocked by Dr. Bob?... ... can the fact that such discussion will make you mad be more important than the real threat to another person’s health and safety?
... ... ... can we allow our annoyance at another’s misguidance to disable our compassion?... ... ... you have freely expressed how angry this has made you and i continue to be concerned that i not make you mad(der) .. ... i have respect for you continuing to post on this thread ... ... because i have not been able to express myself when i have been upset by this kind of situation where folks get wound up here ... ...
.... ... i have also tried to look inside myself to see if i could find anything that makes me feel the kind of mad you are ... ...
.... i surprised myself ... ...
... i have remembered one thing that does make me feel the way you feel ... ...you have written:
> Fine. Do you know what I do all day? I work with youths with drug addiction problems. If they are lucky enough to have any family who cares about them, I work with the families as well.
> That is what I do. That is what I have my Phd in. That is what I have devoted my life to.
>
> I am losing "clients" all the time to drug ODs. Last week a young woman had taken some LSD and thought she could fly. She is now dead. I see young adults who are brain damaged from the amount of drugs they have taken.
>
> So yes, I have a problem when people ask what will happen if I take this with that. There are over 17,000 drug related deaths each year in the U.S.
>
> And I do believe that it should be out in the open. I do believe we should be discussing the problem and making it as public as possible. I don't think here is place.
>
> If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Maxme again:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>> TOBACCO !! <<<<< (!!!!!!!!!!!!! !)!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++i hate tobacco and i seethe when i observe tobacco smokers, cigarette butts on the ground, smell of ashtrays ... ... i despise the tobacco industry!!
... ... (i make the hypothetical exception of native americans’ uses for ceremonial purposes.) ... ...
i hate tobacco, especially cigarette smoking, because my father-in-law died from 2 forms of lung cancer which are only associated with smoking ... ... i will not go into how much i loved my wife’s dad because i choose not to cry today ... ... however he had quit smoking 20 Years before he developed cancer ... my beloved Father Bravo suffered 2 ½ years of torturous treatments (...”to save his life” ...) that destroyed him .. ... ... one afternoon my wife called me at work to come to his house ... ... when i got there i stood by his bed, held his hand and watched as he slowly suffocated to death ...
... ... AND THERE WAS NOTHING I COULD DO !!!!!!!
i miss him every day ....
Max, 400,000 americans die every year from tobacco related diseases ... ... i tell anyone who will listen (no one does!) that if a foreign power were to kill 400,000 americans a year ... ....we would go to WAR! ... ... ... and i would sign up ... ... we all would!
(and to add to KimberlyDi’s poingnant point, 50,000 americans die each year from alcohol-related auto accidents ... ... i lost both of my parents one year ago in an accident ... ... ... my grief is worsened by my suspicion the other driver had been drinking ... ... reaction time degraded ... ... broadsided and destroyed my folks’ lincoln on a clear bright day ... ... )
so, Max, i can feel the way you do .... ... i can be very angry.... .... i AM very angry ... ... i see how you feel ... ... in fact, these traumas i’ve mentioned are why i take lexapro everyday for my depression ...
but if i were to post here that i wanted to know about the effects of some, say, crystal meth, on my lexapro ... ... it’s going to make you too angry for you to let me get the feedback and guidance i would need to help me save myself from my ignorance .... is that right?
you wrote:
> So yes, I have a problem when people ask what will happen if I take this with that. There are over 17,000 drug related deaths each year in the U.S.yet if by asking we could save one of those 17,000, should we not allow the asking and answering?
you wrote:
> And I do believe that it should be out in the open. I do believe we should be discussing the problem and making it as public as possible. I don't think here is place.i have seen you offer no reason why, especially here, this should not be the place ... ... why not? ...can it be just because it offends you?
... ( i am grateful that Dr. Bob, in his excellent wisdom, sees his way clear to allow posts here about illegal drugs' effects ..... ... and i thank him for his welcomed post on that worthy policy: THANKS, DR. BOB! .. again...)
you wrote:
> If you are taking illegal drugs, then I don't think your biggest worry should be what if I take it with an MAOI or SSRI etc. I do not see the logic in that line of thinking.... .. okay, try this: ... if we are blessed to have these illegal drug users get worried about ANYTHING, then we are morally obligated to use any such concerns as leverage to provide them the guidance to try to protect them from self-destruction .... .... at least that's a line of thinking we can use, right?
... ... ... you have defied me by implying that illegal drug users have any biggest worries other than getting more drugs OR anything like logic in anything like a line of anything like thinking .. .. ... i find such premises ... ... extraordinarily unlikely ... ...
... ... is it reasonable on your part to expect that illegal drug users are going to be using any logic in their “line” of thinking ?
... ... isn’t the addictive nature of these drugs inherently anti-logical
.... you know, it’s unreasonable to expect unreasonable people to be reasonable.actually, Max, you have managed to perplex me in such a way that i have discovered an insight into my own depression ... ... that i am still unresolved (and very angry) about my dad-in-law’s death as much as i am about my parents’ deaths ... ... no one else has been able to afford me this insight ... .... and for as important as this is to me, i THANK you ... ... very much ... ... you have helped me and i do appreciate it.
god bless you, Max ... i admire your personal commitment in the war against human self-destruction.
... ... sorry this is so long ... .. . i got carried away.
THANKS !!!! and TAKE CARE !!!!
~ jim
Posted by bampf on June 25, 2003, at 13:56:29
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs, posted by ELENI4 on June 24, 2003, at 12:12:04
Just wanted to say I agree with you. I don't know if it was you or someone else who originally posted the issue of discussing drugs, illicit or not, but I think it should be brought up and there should be sources available to inform people of interactions
Posted by starlight on June 25, 2003, at 15:34:15
In reply to Re: MAOI and Ecstacy Jim, posted by stjames on June 23, 2003, at 15:27:06
Hi all,
I've been reading through these posts and want to bring up the point that there's a very large percentage of Bipolar people who abuse illicit drugs. All kinds, cocaine, heroin, meth, weed, you name it and there will be someone out there who self medicates with it. That's the truth. In order to make chances, you have to be willing to accept the truth, not hide behind the discomfort of it being difficult to talk about.I smoked marijuana for years - daily. Love it. Great self medicating drug and not addictive in the sense that many other drugs are - I wanted to quit, but knew I wouldn't until I was ready to. I discussed it with my Pdoc, with the stipulation that it was not to go in my charts. I was completely open and honest with him regarding the amount of usage, and finally we came to the right combo of meds, and I was able to quit. It's been nearly two months, with the exception of one day - where I was at a reggae festival - and only did a little bit - then went right back to not smoking. I don't think I could have done it without the right meds and his support.
This is the perfect forum for the discussion of meds - both self meds and pharmeceuticals.
starlight
Posted by djmmm on June 26, 2003, at 7:53:19
In reply to Alternative site for illegal drug information, posted by Eddie Sylvano on June 23, 2003, at 16:49:31
> >But if I start to see "MAOI and Cocaine" or "MAOI and LSD" - I will be pissed off. Like I said, I think it's all a moot point since we all know that these drug will kill people by THEMSELVES.
> ---------------
>
> Man, I've been burned bad in the past on this board for daring to mention anything about illegal drugs. Whether or not you feel that the distinction between legal and illegal drugs is somewhat arbitrary, their use is still a crime, could hurt you, and clearly makes people here uncomfortable.
> I've found that a good forum for dispassionate conversation of such issues to be http://www.erowid.org
> It's a pretty decent site, with lots of information, links, experiences, and stories about drugs both legal and illegal. Probably a better forum for such discussions than psychobabble.
> My only complaint with banning illegal drug discussion from PB is that they aren't all just *recreational*. It's possible that some people's lives can be made better by using such drugs in a controlled manner (i.e: many people here use dextroamphetamine), but research and discussion of such uses is anathema, cast aside as the ramblings of junkies. As others have mentioned, such freedom of discussion also allows for information on the hazards of such drugs to be conveyed. Legislation is not the best indication of a chemical's utility.I think this board should welcome ANY questions regarding illegal drugs. MDMA specifically, does have theraputic value, as does GHB...both illegal drugs (although GHB is a legal med in europe)...
I think the purpose of this forum is dissemination of education through PERSONAL experience; sometimes, illegal drugs are involved, whether through self-medication, or as a cause of mental instability (for lack of better words).
another site is http://www.bluelight.nu/ (for MDMA info)..interestingly there are a lot of questions about antidepressants within their forum. The site IS very bias towards the pro-drug side....but the same can be said about psychobabble, right?
Posted by jay beck on June 26, 2003, at 8:34:32
In reply to Re: Alternative site for illegal drug information, posted by djmmm on June 26, 2003, at 7:53:19
AHHHHH, u must be jokeing!!!! people should be able to ask anything they want or have concerns about. it doesnt matter as long as the post is within the rules of the board.
o btw, NEVER take X with an MAOI, you get multiple bad reactions (seritonin syndrome, hypertension, possible brain hemmorage...)
and 3. this is to that Max dude, i have never known anyone personaly who killed themselves on LSD although its defently screwed up my head a bit. and I AM an ex-addict (heroin) so i did every drug i could try, some are deadly in the long run (cocaine, heroin, meth) some are fairly dangerous to your brain and emotional/mental well being (extacy, lsd, Thc, DXM...) the amount of misinformation about drugs is insane. the DEA publishes so much nonsence to scare people and those stupid drug rehab people have heard (and belive) all of it. I quit drugs when i was in rehab but only because i was detoxing away from home. those people are just idiots. for the TRUTH about drugs goto www.erowid.org
its non government propigated so the government hates the site, but it is the truth.
and for the record i do think psycadelics and empathetics (LSD, X) can be very benificial to ones life, just never over do it
Posted by Carlos on June 26, 2003, at 16:01:47
In reply to Re: allowing discussion illicit drugs » Maxime, posted by lil' jimi on June 23, 2003, at 10:57:30
Please read my more recent posts. I discuss a lot about the different "illicit" drugs I have used while on a MAOI. I need no lectures, please. I am very aware of the cons, and pros. Also, on what may occur.
A quick list of drugs used (more than once with no negatice effects) while on 60mg of Nardil.
-MDMA
-Methamphetamine
-Cocaine
-Ketamine
-GHBI have noticed that Nardil potentiates (especially MDAM) the effects of most substances so compensation is usually done by lowering dosages of the "illicit" drugs.
-Carlos
Posted by starlight on June 27, 2003, at 12:38:40
In reply to Lots of hype and scare. Make your own decisions., posted by Carlos on June 26, 2003, at 16:01:47
Carlos,
Why do you risk it?I'm just curious because, it seems like a self deprecating behavior. I'm prone to doing hurtful things to myself - I'm bipolar mixed - but I work toward more healthful living. I also found that when I got the right combinations of meds, that I was able to quit smoking pot daily and have lost the desire to smoke at all. I decided that it was definitely a chemistry issue in my brain, and am really thankful that i was able to stop. Not because I think it's a bad drug, but because it wasn't serving me in a positive way.
So I'm just curious, why do you feel propelled to experiment with these drugs - or to do them?
starlight
Posted by Carlos on June 29, 2003, at 10:29:51
In reply to Doing Drugs and Maoi's, posted by starlight on June 27, 2003, at 12:38:40
> Carlos,
> Why do you risk it?
>
> I'm just curious because, it seems like a self deprecating behavior. I'm prone to doing hurtful things to myself - I'm bipolar mixed - but I work toward more healthful living. I also found that when I got the right combinations of meds, that I was able to quit smoking pot daily and have lost the desire to smoke at all. I decided that it was definitely a chemistry issue in my brain, and am really thankful that i was able to stop. Not because I think it's a bad drug, but because it wasn't serving me in a positive way.
>
> So I'm just curious, why do you feel propelled to experiment with these drugs - or to do them?
>
> starlight
It's not self deprecating if you're not destructing yourself. Drugs that happen to be Illegal drugs have been so stigmatized, unfortunately. I'm in perfect pyshical shape, other than the awful fatigue that Nardil can cause. Best wishes.-Carlos
Posted by Simcha on June 29, 2003, at 21:08:49
In reply to Re: Doing Drugs and Maoi's, posted by Carlos on June 29, 2003, at 10:29:51
This "War on Drugs" seems to eliminate some options that might work for many of us. I'm tired of the billions our government spends "protecting" us from drugs that might help me. We in California have medical marijuana. This will end up going up to the supreme court because Federal Agents are busting growers of medical marijuana here. I hope things will change.
Posted by Carlos on June 29, 2003, at 21:32:27
In reply to Re: Doing Drugs and Maoi's -- 'War on Drugs', posted by Simcha on June 29, 2003, at 21:08:49
I personally think that (if of age) we be allowed to put whatever we want into our bodies. They belong to us. It's outragous that there be some higher power who believe they are better than the rest who can decide that for us and push harsh punishment against those who don't comply. Not only that, but be judged for it socially just as well is a shame.
-Carlos
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 30, 2003, at 0:22:19
In reply to Re: Doing Drugs and Maoi's -- 'War on Drugs', posted by Carlos on June 29, 2003, at 21:32:27
> I personally think that (if of age) we be allowed to put whatever we want into our bodies.
This is fine to discuss, but since it's more about the war than the drugs, I'd like that discussion to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030626/msgs/238032.html
Thanks,
Bob
PS: And follow-ups regarding posting policies to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by craig getty on June 30, 2003, at 4:58:49
In reply to Lots of hype and scare. Make your own decisions., posted by Carlos on June 26, 2003, at 16:01:47
Hi all,
Carlos, I am interested in seeing your recent posts, and will comment after I have had time to examine them.
Thank you all for your partication on this discussion thread. Seeing that my initial question about Nardil and ecstacy has raised such fervent debate, I felt obligated to respond.
First, I think it's great that there can be a forum for frank and (hopefully) confidential exchange of information regarding antidepressants and anything having to do with the people who take them. I disagree with anyone who feels that such discussion should bar any mention of *illegal drugs*. That would be the philosophical equivalent of sticking one's head in the sand. Like it or not, the use of *illegal drugs* is a huge part of our society - and I believe that there is a very blurry and overlapping distinction as to why people take them: recreational/self-medication/self-improvement. They are all means to the same end - to feel better, which is the same reason *legal* pharmaceuticals are prescribed. And just like *legal* anti-depressants, the misuse of *illegal* drugs can often make one's problems worse and be dangerous. THAT IS WHY INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT. Especially given all the prejudiced propanda that is out there. So, just as some uninformed people are lead to believe that antidepressants can turn someone into a lobotomized, babbling, grinning idiot, or worse a homicidal maniac - others are led to believe that doing ecstacy 3 times will drain all your spinal fluid and leave you paralyzed; or doing LSD 5 times will render you permanently insane.
It is a fact that many people, when in social situations, use *illegal* drugs and/or alcohol (not to mention cigarettes) - even if they are currently on antidepressants. Although Dr. Bob might recommend that the social implications of this should be discussed on another part of this web site, let me just say that all this *legal* and *illegal* drug taking probably speaks volumes to the state of our society, when so many people are taking so many things just to feel o.k. enough to interact with others (antidepressant drugs make billions for pharmeceutical companies, alternative holistic pills rake in big bucks, illegal drug demand has not reduced despite the *brilliant* war on drugs, cigarettes won't go away, and hello, let's talk about what a major part of the u.s. economy is served by the mighty ALCOHOL INDUSTRY). People have always felt the need to alter/shape their consciousnesses, so perhaps the best thing to do is figure out why.
In follow up to my specific nardial & ecstacy question, my question was not based on ignorance or a desire to hurt myself. I simply knew that I was going to be at a party where there would be the option to do ecstacy (which I have done a few times before, but not in several years), and I wanted to arm myself with as much information as possible. At the party, like most parties, there were many people who were using lots of alcohol, ecstacy, coke and pot. These were not high school or college kids who didn't know any better - this was a party of successful professionals whose ages ranged from mid-20's to mid-40's. There were several I knew who were taking *illegal* drugs while also being on antidepressants (although with the noted exception to follow, they were not taking MAOIs).
Based on the responses I received from this web-site, I made the decision NOT to risk doing ecstacy or any other *illegal* drug. I intended to drink domestic bottled beer (which I know is not good to do, but is not as major an offender as other MAOI alchohol restrictions - and I was not driving). This was the first time I planned to drink after being on Nardil for a little over a month. Interestingly, Nardil seems to have caused me to lose my taste for alcohol. And while I used to have 6-7 beers at a party when I was on SSRIs, I stopped after 1 beer this time. I simply did not enjoy the taste and immediately felt a "mental heaviness" that was not enjoyable.
Now, in reference to the friend of mine who was at the party and who is also taking a MAOI: She has been taking Nardil for considerably longer than I (over a year) and has used ecstacy before while on it, and planned to do it again. I tried to convince her not to, but she was set on it. I told her about the responses to my inquiry on this web site, and we did reach a compromise - she only did half a tab of ecstacy (as well a tiny bit of coke). She was fine, although she did experience blurry vision for 15 minutes or so.
I also checked her pulse on several occassions to make sure it was not too high.NOTE: I do not provide this information to in any way encourage someone taking an MAOI to follow suit, but I provide it for 2 reasons: 1) An anecdotal (and completely unscientific) relay of information - which *could* ultimately lead to better inform us; 2) to demonstrate how frank discussion on this web site can contribute to protecting people, i.e. at least my conversation with her got her to lower her intake of ecstacy.
I, of course, understand the risk of a case where a warped person might flood a web-site with fabricated information with the intent to do harm, but I do not think that censoring what we talk about is the answer.
I value all the discussion that has taken place and all the differing opinions that have been stated, and appreciate that this forum has enabled us to do so.
-Craig
P.S. I have specific question about Nardil, which I will pose in another post as I already seem to have been guilty for an extremely long pscyho-babble here.
> Please read my more recent posts. I discuss a lot about the different "illicit" drugs I have used while on a MAOI. I need no lectures, please. I am very aware of the cons, and pros. Also, on what may occur.
>
> A quick list of drugs used (more than once with no negatice effects) while on 60mg of Nardil.
>
> -MDMA
> -Methamphetamine
> -Cocaine
> -Ketamine
> -GHB
>
> I have noticed that Nardil potentiates (especially MDAM) the effects of most substances so compensation is usually done by lowering dosages of the "illicit" drugs.
>
> -Carlos
>
>
Posted by Carlos on June 30, 2003, at 6:11:41
In reply to Re: Lots of hype and scare. Make your own decisions., posted by craig getty on June 30, 2003, at 4:58:49
Frist off, very interesting and articulate post Craig. I too have been at gatherings where there was a very mixed crowd of very successfull people who "party", or dabble with many "illegal" drugs. It just goes to show that it's not just something teenagers are doing in the alley after school.
I think though that it's a shame most of them are very discrete about it. I am very open and honest about my recreation and medical drug use. I let my family, doctor, and all my friends know where I stand on the issue and how it is part of my lifestyle like it or not. I do not encourage anyone into anything they feel is wrong or are uncomfortable with and understanably believe I should not be so lectured with folklore and propaganda either. I could go on and on and make comparisions between many legal and illegal drugs as far as safety and legitimate use goes, but frankly I'm too tired and it will always be an endless debate.
I would just like to make one point, I think starting off with half a pill of ecstasy may be a bit much while on Nardil. Unfortunatley, since it's an illicit drug one can never (unless prepaeed by oneself, which I have the luxury of knowing a very talented chemist) know the exact doesage or the exact "ingredients" I experience a wonderful time while doing 1/3's at a time. Each to his or her own. I personally think Nardil's side-effects and adverse reactions with other substances is over-hyped.
I'd also like to buzz in on what you mentioned about alcohol. I was never really a big drinker. I can't remember the last time other than in high school where I actually enjoyed drinking. Too many side-effects. I have tried having a few drinks on Nardil and found it to be quite distastful. Not even had drinking enough to get a good buzz going I became very depressed and it seemed to last for days. Oddly enough when I would use ecstasy prior to Nardil therapy I had the same depressive reaction afterwards. I now hardly notice an after-effects, or rarely a very mild increase in deression for a day or so, but nothing compared to when not on Nardil.
Best wishes,
Carlos
Posted by Craig Getty on July 4, 2003, at 16:10:51
In reply to Re: Lots of hype and scare. Make your own decisions., posted by Carlos on June 30, 2003, at 6:11:41
Hey Carlos,
Question for you. Don't you think that theoretically if someone finds the right med(s) (and any necessary therapy) for their "condition," then they shouldn't need any street drugs?
Also, are you on just Nardil or anything else in addition? By the way, I saw your other post, congrats on getting the digits!
Lastly, have you experienced any type of "censoring" on this site? For example, if I do a search for "MAOI and Ecstacy," my original post doesn't come up. I'm wondering if those that run the site are worried about liability or simply do not want to make readily available a post that suggests that someone could possibly combine the two. I can still access my message via my e-mail link, but anyone doing a general search, wouldn't be able to find it - so technically the site administrators wouldn't be using censorship - but maybe they can limit which messages show up from a general search. Or maybe it's just a program glitch and I'm paranoid...
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2003, at 13:08:08
In reply to Re: Lots of hype and scare. Make your own decisions. » Carlos, posted by Craig Getty on July 4, 2003, at 16:10:51
> have you experienced any type of "censoring" on this site? For example, if I do a search for "MAOI and Ecstacy," my original post doesn't come up. I'm wondering if those that run the site are worried about liability or simply do not want to make readily available a post that suggests that someone could possibly combine the two. I can still access my message via my e-mail link, but anyone doing a general search, wouldn't be able to find it - so technically the site administrators wouldn't be using censorship - but maybe they can limit which messages show up from a general search. Or maybe it's just a program glitch and I'm paranoid...
This is probably a program glitch, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030508/msgs/229830.html
Bob
Posted by pontiacfiero69 on September 22, 2003, at 16:29:35
In reply to MAOI and Ecstacy, posted by Craig Getty on June 20, 2003, at 3:25:47
So MDMA in combination with an MAOi is supposed to be dangerous? What do you think about the information here: http://www.mdma.net/depsave.htm
Posted by lil' jimi on September 22, 2003, at 16:59:46
In reply to Re: MAOI and Ecstacy, posted by pontiacfiero69 on September 22, 2003, at 16:29:35
i don't know, but this part sounded bad ... ...
" These data suggest that the deamination by monoamine oxidase-B of excessive dopamine within the 5-HT terminal generates hydrogen peroxide that may lead to membrane lipid peroxidation, and perhaps other oxidative insults, resulting in selective 5-HT terminal degeneration subsequent to MDMA treatment. "
... sounds like that could hurt
Posted by pontiacfiero69 on September 22, 2003, at 23:35:09
In reply to re: MAOI and Ecstacy » pontiacfiero69, posted by lil' jimi on September 22, 2003, at 16:59:46
> i don't know, but this part sounded bad ... ...
>
> " These data suggest that the deamination by monoamine oxidase-B of excessive dopamine within the 5-HT terminal generates hydrogen peroxide that may lead to membrane lipid peroxidation, and perhaps other oxidative insults, resulting in selective 5-HT terminal degeneration subsequent to MDMA treatment. "
>
> ... sounds like that could hurtYes it does. However, if I understand the abstract correctly, the observed neurotoxicity and serotonin terminal degeneration appeared to be blocked by l-deprenyl.
Posted by lil' jimi on September 23, 2003, at 1:18:12
In reply to re: MAOI and Ecstacy, posted by pontiacfiero69 on September 22, 2003, at 23:35:09
> > i don't know, but this part sounded bad ... ...
> >
> > " These data suggest that the deamination by monoamine oxidase-B of excessive dopamine within the 5-HT terminal generates hydrogen peroxide that may lead to membrane lipid peroxidation, and perhaps other oxidative insults, resulting in selective 5-HT terminal degeneration subsequent to MDMA treatment. "
> >
> > ... sounds like that could hurt
>
> Yes it does. However, if I understand the abstract correctly, the observed neurotoxicity and serotonin terminal degeneration appeared to be blocked by l-deprenyl.
>i appreciate the assist there ...
... let me try that again ... ...
... i think you're going to have to give me some more help here ...
... i've read it 4 times just now ...
... it's like i'm having to diagram these sentences ...
... or working a math problem
... one where you solve the equation for 'x'
... ... (HA!)
... (sorry)... anyway
... here's where i got (get) lost ...
isn't the
monoamine oxidase-B
(this is the MAOI, right ?)
... the same as l-deprenyl ?... fifth time and now i know the answer is yes ...
... still sounds to me like the maoi decreases some bad things from the x "treatment" of the rats ... only to contribute to some really bad things in that last sentence there ...
... isn't the l-deprenyl's deanimating the excess serotonin from the mdma treatment ... causing this H2O2 to burn out the 5HT terminals ?
... IF i was right about that, wouldn't it be better to just let the x do it's worst and leave worse enough alone ?
Posted by stjames on September 23, 2003, at 11:52:43
In reply to re: MAOI and Ecstacy, posted by pontiacfiero69 on September 22, 2003, at 23:35:09
Amphetamine is an MAOI; it is well reported that taking 2 MAOI together is dangerious.
Posted by loolot on September 23, 2003, at 15:39:37
In reply to re: MAOI and Ecstacy » pontiacfiero69, posted by lil' jimi on September 22, 2003, at 16:59:46
Just from my own intuitive knowledge, having done X once or twice a long long time ago, I would say that it could be dangerous to combine an MOAi. If X is the chemical forefather of effexor, and MAOIs are not supposed to be combined with effexor (isnt that right? or is it just ssris?), then I would think no on the recreational useage.
Also I remember what a physical toll that drug took on my body. It was like nothing else, It completely dehydrated me, my heart raced, sometimes I had to just lay still because I couldnt take the stimuation. My guess is it could send the blood pressure up, too. These are all guesses, but I thought I would share...I think that drug is a bit nasty, actually. I wouldnt chance it
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